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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Hello everybody i'm Roger world and i'm professor of sociology director of the Center for the study of international migration at UCLA and I am delighted to welcome you to today's book talk, this is the.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Third, of the spring quarter talks that we have been organizing with friends and colleagues at the Center for comparative immigration studies at uc San Diego but before we.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: We move to the presentation of the book that we are highlighting today just want to remind you that we meet at this place at this time, every Friday and we'll be doing so through the end of the spring quarter so.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Next Friday at noon, we will reassemble to the sculpture new book by James McCann and Michael Jones Korea called holding fast resilience and civic engagement among Latino immigrants.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: With a comment by Zoltan how chanel of the political science department at uc uc San Diego so without any further ado, what i'd like to do today is.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: turn the floor over to our distinguished speaker and Professor Richard Alba, who is the author of a new, very interesting book.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The great demographic illusion majority minority and the expanding American mainstream and Richard will present the book then we'll turn to.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Susan brown professor of sociology at uc Irvine for comment back to Richard for reactions and then we will open up for discussion with the audience, so the floor is yours Richard, thank you for joining us and I will let you know once you've talked for 20 minutes.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Right thanks Okay, and I just want to say publicly i'm very grateful to David into Roger for offering me this opportunity and also to Susan for being willing to comment on the book, so let me bring up the book okay and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay i'm hoping that every I think everybody should see the slides okay so before we get into the meat of the slides, let me just remark that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The book deals with a sort of a complicated medley of seems that sort of intersect and interweave throughout the narrative and I can't.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Really fully do them justice here, but I want to highlight at the very beginning that the ultimate subject of the book is really about how rising America.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Can rising diversity in the United States can be changed, can be expected to change America and in particular what we can think of as the American mainstream society which is shared by people have many different backgrounds okay so.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: My taking off point is the way we understand current social changes and the future to which they are likely to lead and so we have a narrative that is very widely shared certainly by people in the academy and it's a it's a basically a demographic narrative and it holds that inevitably.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We will experience a majority minority America, one in which whites will have become a numerical minority of the population and sort of current people of color will then constitute.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: As majority of the population, I want to look at this narrative just for a minute or two one is to consider the image of the society.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That it conveys and so you know it's obviously presents a society that is fractured into along an ethno racial boundary and, in addition, it holds that one side is gaining in some sense, while the other side is losing.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: there's now a very strong body of social, psychological research that shows that many whites perhaps most whites react.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In a negative ways when presented with this majority minority scenario they many become more conservative in their expression of political opinion and also they express more negative attitudes.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: about minorities these findings seem bolstered really ND analyses that we have in political science of the trump victory in 2016.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Many of which, maybe, all of them, for all I know, have pointed to the racial resentment of non college educated whites as a major factor in in the in the trump victory, and you know part of the social, psychological research.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: uses as an explanatory frame the the anxieties that the dominant group feels about its potential loss of status, which clearly, then, is a way of thinking about this racial resentment.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But the majority minority narrative is colliding at the moment with a much quieter trend which has not gotten as much attention, I think.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: As it deserves, and this really is the rise of mixing across ethno racial lines in families and this mixing especially and brings together people who come from.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: A white the white group as we commonly understand it, as well as people who come from groups that are backgrounds, that we would characterize as associated with people of color.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Pew the Pew research Center regularly does reports on the state of intermarriage and its most recent one says that one fifth.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Of the new marriages in the United States marriages contracted within the year of the survey.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: bring together partners from different major ethno racial categories now obviously some of these marriages may involve people from.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Only minority categories African Americans marrying Asians, for example, but the great majority of these marriages 75 to 80% of them, involve a white partner and a minority partner.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The majority minority narrative overlooks or neglects you know this important phenomenon, and it has no room in a wave in its binary vision for a potentially large group.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That sits athwart this you know, this is no racial boundaries that's dividing line because it sits at toward it because, by virtue of its family origins, it has kinship ties.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: and presumably other ties on both sides of the dividing line but that's exactly you know what is happening as a result of mixing and family so.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We can see from recent birth certificate data that the percentage of infants, whose parents come from different.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: ethnic, racial categories major so racial categories is really non trivial I mean I say 14% here, but in more recent data is 15%.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And the great majority 75% have a white parent and a parent who would be classified in our conventional census.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: categories as non white and some of the categories of these mixing mixing are ones that we have really ignored, so you know we think of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: People have mixed background, as people coming from black white families or.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: People coming from Asian white families, but the largest category by far is people who have one parent who is Latino and another parent who is non Latino white so that's 40% of all the.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Mixed births and it's half of all of the births that involves a white parent and minority parent another category that is really obscured.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In in the way census data are currently presented is the group that has a white parent and a mixed race parent, the great majority of these mixed race parents are themselves the products of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Families where there's a white parent and a minority parents, so this mixed white category, which is 10% of all mixed births is one in which the the children really are going to have three white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Three white grandparents, so this.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The level of mixing and in terms of family backgrounds of infants has been increasing over time.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And there's no reason at least at the moment to think that it won't continue to increase in the near future, indeed, every time I turn to a new birth certificate data set I find it's risen to a slightly higher level, so it continues to ratchet upward.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well, so now we get to how mixing interacts with the census data that undergird the majority minority narrative and the the essence of the story is that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The data that support this narrative have some major false because they define white in a narrow exclusive way you're white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: If you are non Hispanic and white only by race and so therefore individuals who are presented in census data as coming from mixed minority white backgrounds.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: are classified as minorities in the key public presentations of census data this not only includes the population projections.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But it also includes population estimates, so that, for instance, the census Bureau has has told Americans that the majority of babies born in the United States today.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: come from minority groups well not exactly the majority of babies born in the United States today.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: have at least one parent who is white, so this statement and depends on the minority classification of babies coming from a mixed.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Mixed parental backgrounds there's no scientific basis for this decision of the census bureau it actually has a political and civil rights basis.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And was made at the time the census in 2000 went to allowing people to report.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Racial mixes on the census, and at that time, civil rights groups were very concerned about how this this new way of presenting backgrounds would affect.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The counts of minority groups, and so the the office of management and budget, which sets the standards for the census collection of ethnic and racial data said, therefore, that people of mixed race would be classified with their minority origin.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And then, this problem becomes compounded because the concentration of mixed individuals is among children so.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: they're obviously rarely reporting their racial ethnic information on the census instead their parents are and parents tend to acknowledge.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Both sides of their children's backgrounds, meaning that the large majority of children in mixed families are classified as minority on the census and then finally.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In the projections the census treats these backgrounds as fixed over the life course and and therefore it classifies individuals, the first time.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: It encounters them and their classifications never changed so in current data which is one basis of the projections, that would mean that many, many mixed children are going to be categorized as minority.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And then, for the infants, who were born during the census it applies the same data, if you will, that it's just collected from the current current census data, so, in other words, the vast majority of mixed children are going to be classified as minority, even though it will as i'll show.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The identities of these individuals are much more fluid, then, then what has been true in the past, so the upshot of all of this is the census data greatly exaggerated.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: If not even get wrong, the transition to a majority minority society.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The increasing importance of young people coming from mixed ethno racial backgrounds obviously calls raises the question of well how should we think about.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: mixed origins in the 21st century, and I think we should be prepared to set aside the assumptions that we bring from the historical experience with mixed racial backgrounds, so you know, through the 20th century.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: A lot of our understanding has been shaped by the one drop rule in which, according to which individuals who come from mixed backgrounds are seen as members of minority populations and come to think of themselves in that way.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I argue and you'll see below, why is that the pressures to identify oneself in that way of really relented in the early 21st century and, in part because of the rise of mixing and also the welcome census Bureau decision to allow individuals to report multiple races.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In on on their census forms, now we net We know from analyses that have matched individuals across census data set say between the 2000 and the 2010 census.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That individuals from a mixed background is actually in this case mixed racial backgrounds have unusually fluid identities and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: They can appear as mixed like Asian white in one census, and then, as members of single categories either Asian or white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In the other census in the case, by the way of Asian Mike individuals when they appear as members of single categories that's more often as white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Then, as Asian we're not able really to do this fully yet for people who are Hispanic and that's because the census.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Questions the census use it to question format to collect data and Hispanics are classified as Hispanic regardless of what they say, is there on the race question so there's no way.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In the census is currently constructed to recognize when individuals are mixed Hispanic and and not, but in any event, I think that the script of model of race which we probably all learned in the first week of sociology.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Treating race as a trait that is fixed by birth.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: was a decent model of race, through our history, up until the 21st century, and because of the rise of the mixed group, it will not work as well in the 21st century.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: So let me just throw in here a few ideas about assimilation, which will shape kind of what I say, subsequently, so in the book, I wrote with Victor knee.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We defined a simulation as not a change of group membership that's the way Milton Gordon defined it, but as a.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: decline in relevance of an ethno racial distinction and relevance means that there are fewer and fewer social situations in which people's behavior is affected.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: By that distinction so, unlike the Gordon definition, this does not require see ratio of an ethno racial identity, nor does it require the extinction of all of the cultural.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: and social traits associated with that origin, and I think assimilation can be usefully conceived, especially for what i'm going to say.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: As entering into a the mainstream of the society where, by definition, the role of ethno racial origins in determining status and shaping interactions.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: is diminished in the past in the middle of the 20th century, when the white ethnics Jewish and Catholic were assimilating.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The effect of a simple that assimilation was to expand the mainstream, but also to make it more diverse more visibly religiously diverse, for example.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I think this is a useful way to start thinking about how the mainstream may be changing in the early 21st century whoops sorry okay so um do we have evidence that bears on mixed ethno racial backgrounds and assimilation absolutely.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I say that this group gives us the clearest window into assimilation processes that are ongoing and using it as that window does not imply the relevance of assimilation to other non whites it's just that, by looking at this group, we can really see.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The impacts of assimilation and we have a substantial body of data, although it's certainly incomplete.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You know I think in looking at the data it's important to look for different kinds of evidence that fit together in a mutually supportive way and I think the book does that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The data is quantitative but also qualitative and and also their survey data, so the birth certificate data tell us about parents to some extent.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We have certainly have census data about families with mixed children and adults who claimed to come from mixed backgrounds.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The Pew survey so multiracial Americans and of Hispanic identity, give us useful insights.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: There are some ethnographic studies my book depends on ones that I liked very much by that's really kind of gone under the radar called multiculturalism.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And it's discontent discontents and let me mark at the very beginning that when we look at mixed the people, the mixed population, there is a very obvious difference.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In experience and location between those individuals who come from black white families and others and the individuals who come from black white families.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Experience much more racism and they therefore are much more likely to see themselves in terms of their minority origin, then, are the others.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: So in thinking about this evidence, I want to emphasize sort of the.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: spirit of Milton gordon's idea of structural assimilation, so he called you know structural assimilation entry into the I think it was the club's clicks and institutions of the host society, I think of it as more we want to know about the social me us in which individuals are embedded.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And we want in particular to see the extent to which they have.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: amicable even intimate contacts with whites and I want to say, this is a historically specific measure certainly of mainstream participation, because at the moment.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The mainstream is still white dominated I mean in the future that may be much less so, and this particular measure may have less.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: validity, but overall, I believe that the evidence shows that mixed minority white Americans for the most part, are becoming part of the mainstream society and so here that some of the specific findings that I think supports that conclusion.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: They start life in more favorable circumstances their parents, for example, have higher education, then the parents in minority only families, they are more likely to grow up in neighborhoods.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Where they can mix with whites the at health data, by the way, show that they have Asian whites and Hispanic whites have high rates of choosing whites as their best friends.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: On average, mixed individuals achieve better educational outcomes, they have much higher rates of college graduations.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: They mix with whites in neighborhoods in their friendship circles, but these are not exclusively white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: They have very high rates of marriage to whites reflecting, I think the white Presidents in their social mill us and, as I mentioned, they also have fluid identities, which vary in between mixed and single identities and can be minority or white.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay, and so i'm heading toward the clothes here, respecting I hope the 20 minute limit, I just want to mention in passing, I really don't have time to get into this in any detail.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: that some of these changes are really being fueled by a lot a set of large scale demographic processes that we can think of as associated.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: With the transition to a much more diverse working age population, but at this historical moment what we have is the synchronization of two.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: really big demographic changes, one is the exit of the heavily white and very successful overall baby boom from the ages of economic and civic activity, so the baby boom.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Is the group of Americans born between 1946 and 1964 and just before the beginning of the onset of new mass immigration.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The youngest baby boomers are today in their late 50s so over the next 15 to 20 years they're really going to exit almost completely from.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The Labor market and from positions in you know civic organizations and so forth.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: At the same time maturing into the workforce are much more diverse youth cohorts and cohorts that have been in particular affected by the large scale immigration.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Over the last 50 years, so I say there's nonzero sum ability and by that I mean there are not enough young qualified whites to replace the whites who are leaving from.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: relatively high positions in the workforce, so there is space, then for others, coming from either wholly minority or partly minority backgrounds.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: To move up and to occupy these positions so you might ask do we see evidence of this absolutely So if you look at the top tier of the workforce and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: it's ethno racial composition by age and over time it's very clear that younger workers.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That in in the past it has been monopolized by whites, but that is no longer true younger workers are increasingly coming from non white or partly.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Non white backgrounds and actually there's a statistic from education that I think is sort of you can take as the signal of what's going on, so the American Council on education did a report last.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Not not last year in 2019 and part of it looked at the changing composition of college graduates and in the most recent data they found that the group of BA graduates was only six.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Only 60% of that was whites, and so the rest were minorities and you may think well but whites you know, surely.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Hold kind of dominance in the most elite tier well the New York Times did an examination and 2017 of the S no racial compositions of the freshman classes at the top American universities, public and private.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: At the Ivy league's and the most elite schools whites were down to 50% of the entering freshman, so there is a kind of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Huge change taking place and the changes in education, I think, more or less guarantee future changes in the Labor force because of the changing composition of the most highly qualified young people in in our society okay so some final words.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And Roger you haven't said anything yet.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For the final words.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay okay perfect okay so.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: here's some things I think we really need to think about.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Even if the census bureau projection of a majority minority society is precisely true and I it's not.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: This society will not look like we currently imagine it on the basis of the majority minority narrative it will not be.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: cleaved into two parts, because there will be a very large group a growing group of people who sit in between these two parts and who connect those two parts and blur the boundary between it between them.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I think I would put it differently, I would put it, that the mainstream part of our society is expanding and becoming more diverse.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I I see similarities, I mean they're also differences but similarities between what happening, what is happening now.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And what happened in the middle of the 20th century, when ethnic Catholics and Jews expanded the mainstream and diversified it i'll just actually point out, since I have a tiny bit more time.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I counted on 25 minutes, let me point out one thing which I find remarkable so you know if we compare the political leadership of today and the country to that of a century ago.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: it's something remarkable has happened, I mean a century ago, you know the the Klu Klux Klan was was springing into a second life and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Its target was not only African Americans but also new immigrants, particularly Jews and Catholics coming from southern and eastern Europe, it was unimaginable to the white Christian mainstream of 1920 actually the white Christian mainstream of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That Catholics and Jews would ascend in on mass to the leading positions politically in American society, yet today.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The people, leading to three branches of government executive, legislative and judicial are all Catholic, so we have Biden.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Pelosi and john Roberts and the fourth member of this group who leads this this, the majority in the Senate is Jewish I mean this is a kind of remarkable.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: change over time and it's kind of invisible because it doesn't really matter, and these things don't matter as much.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Now, as they, as they did in the past, so this speaks to how kind of this expansion and diversification can really change, you know the the salience of certain what are now very different very salient distinctions make them much less salient so okay for for social science, you know, I think.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We have you know, obviously, our attention is focused very much on racism and for very good reasons as very recent events have brought home.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But I think if we are going to understand the contemporary changes and the implications, we also have to bring assimilation thinking back into our reflection on.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: The changes that are taking place and where they lead, so you know the enduring paradox of our society is the combination of racism.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: and assimilation and our our theorizing our interpretation of evidence has to somehow bring us back to this point.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I also argue that the narrative of the majority minority society is really leading us as a society astray it's misleading it's flawed unscientific grounds and it's deeply divisive develop you know driving many certainly many working class whites into the hands of white nationalists.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You know I think so Morris levy and Dell myers are working on how on social psychology that tells us how people respond to.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Alternative narratives and they show, in a recent article that alternatives are not as divisive, as the majority minority society and, finally, I think we really ought to throw out.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Our kind of this foundational idea for this majority minority narrative that demography can be our destiny.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I think it's in principle, our demographic future is indeterminate it cannot be determined solely by the standard demographic forces of fertility mortality and migration.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Because of the rise of the mixed group and the fluidity of its identity, so the key, then, is going to really live in where these young people become located.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And how they think of themselves, which has a great deal to do with how they are perceived in the social circles, where they.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Where they try to enter and which has to do, of course, with the willingness of Americans have very different origins to interact across boundaries without stereotypes and i'll end on that note, and thank you very much for your attention.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific Thank you so much for the presentation okay Susan over to you now for comments.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: We can't hear you.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Thank you, thank you for that Nice talk, I have some slides, but if they can't be shown that's Okay, I can simply talk through the points.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: This is a very big book, it is a culmination of about 20 years worth of work for Richard all but he has written several other books before, this is the final one.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: It brings together multiple themes of his research, and it is a very important book that I highly recommend, I want to start with that.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: What does it.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Do the Co host show you can share the slides if you.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Great Thank you.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: let's see.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Your screen.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Okay.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: slideshow I can't get to that, but I will in a minute.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: well.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: that's good enough.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Show us the saga Nice.
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Yes.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Major accomplishments of this book The great demographic illusion, the first one, the most important is that Richard all but rejects the popular majority minority narrative.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He shows very convincingly how census data can be used misleadingly used for political purposes, and in so doing, show how a narrative can be created.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And that it can be just outright false, moreover, he also shows how this narrative can be used for fear mongering and can lead to a great deal of negative reaction among wipes.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: That is the key thing that everyone will take away and for which this book will be primarily cited if he does, many other things as well.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He demonstrates how both individuals of white and non white and ancestry who are now in these data, characterized completely as minorities in many ways, have the.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: experiences and the outcomes and the outlook of the white my majority because they have white family members, as well as non white family members.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And so, he shows how the one drop rule increasingly does not apply.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And that these mixed race young people have a much more fluid self definition, so that they may identify as one way in some particular situation and as another in a different situation and that they are comfortable with that.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He shows convincingly how the American mainstream is expanding through the this growing mixed ancestry population.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And this is makes it something of a strategic area for research, because this is especially where the mainstream is growing he shows this culturally through the social networks.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: That student these young students and young people have their school networks their shared popular culture.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And he also shows it structurally through shared organizations, institutions and, most importantly, through residents that many of these mixed race individuals live in neighborhoods that have a very large white population.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: At the same time he does something else important he continues to emphasize the barriers to inclusion that are faced by mixed race persons with black heritage and comes down showing that, in many ways, though they do better than.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: People whose parents are entirely identified as black they nevertheless face severe obstacles now he doesn't discuss as much the children of African Afro Caribbean backgrounds, but he does show, for instance, that they are highly represented in the Ivy league's and other places.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: among his other notable accomplishments in this book are that he ties acceptance of immigrants.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: To inequality in the US now at some level, this has been done for decades, ever since the rise of the hourglass economy.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: But it has not been done quite so thoroughly, especially since the rise of the tea party, especially since the rise of enormous backlash immigration and especially since the rise of Donald trump.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And so, by doing that he shows some of the fissures in American society and the difficulties of acceptance of immigrant groups and the difficulties of expanding mainstream.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He shows how the upward mobility of him an immigrant groups is relatively slow, though it does occur.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He highlights the sense of grievance among native whites and shows how those grievance are related to immigration, because, even if the.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Young mixed race, people are taking positions that the baby boomers are vacating the baby boomers don't necessarily see this occurring in a demographic sense they just see.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Mixed race people of color coming in, and he points out early hochschild story about how the narrative they tell themselves is that they have been waiting in line and where are these other people coming who seem to be cutting the line and so he explains how this grievance is built.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He also points out the importance of higher education at public universities, not necessarily Ivy league's but the public universities that educate the largest number of students for immigrant group mobility and the difficulty of course that.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: They have in being able to afford and pay for universities as they become ever more expensive and defunded.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: So this.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: combination of both the sense of grievance that has grown over the last 1020 years to the difficulty of mobility is a.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Major value and worth thinking about in this book he also carved out a complimentary space for critical race theory in a simulation theory.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Now, not everyone will agree with him here but it's a very interesting and worthwhile argument on how.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: need both in order to see what is happening and how the assimilation theory seems to be working pretty well for the non black.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Children of whites and other immigrant groups, he comes down rather like her gans and Lee and being on the side of a color line that is black non black.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And shows how the children of mixed race African American and white groups are have struggled more than other immigrant groups.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And he does this through both cultural and structural mechanisms that are used to promote assimilation, for instance organizations schools legal definitions legal opportunities.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And the other thing that he does in here is highlight what the mainstream is, and this is important man in some very subtitle of the book is expanding the American mainstream, and this is a very.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: provocative idea in itself, what is the mainstream and he goes to great lengths to define it both structurally and culturally.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: structurally as a core set of societal institutions, such as education, the economy polity in the media occupying a gate keeping role and essentially the dominant quote the dominant formal and informal ways of doing and thinking in quote so how structurally people decide where.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Where they are inserted, he also defines the mainstream culturally so where people feel at home, what makes them feel that they have control where they belong.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And also, whether they have the power to define who else belongs, and in so doing he argues that that makes it a mainstream may not be a singular mainstream, it could be a diversified mainstream diverse.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: By region religion social class so that maybe mainstream isn't the right word as much as multiple channels that have some banks.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And one can ask whether this definition isn't in many ways, almost too expensive, or whether it isn't but he does provide some floors for it, so that saying people who, for instance, are in poverty.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: or who are homeless, would not be considered part of the mainstream.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: So this is another very important aspect of this book and one that people will be debating for quite a while.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And he also highlights the non linear path that acceptance for Italian and Jewish immigrants.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And for the European ethnics he talks about this non zero some simulation theory that applied in post war years how their status was uplifted.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: In the post war economic boom during a period when the economy was going great guns and everyone was benefiting, and so the white population of native ancestry did not feel.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: threatened by immigrant groups at the time.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He talks about this, the European ethnics having social proximity, at least the white ethnics beat by being able to move to the suburbs and to work an integrated workplaces.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And he describes their moral elevation or district meditation both through World War Two and popular TV shows and World War Two because they were fighting side by side and the army, made a point of showing the contributions of two different ethnic groups.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And that led me to wonder whether indeed this D stigmatization required a common enemy, whether it required a Nazi enemy or required a Communist enemy in the 1950s, in order to make a sense of being American more salient to people.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Nowadays, however.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: He looks at this status uplift and says it's being accomplished through education better jobs, the retirement, the baby boom that he discussed and looks at how the.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Changing of the DEMO demographics, as the baby Boomer retires will allow status to go up but.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: There is a question of well, will the will the economy, allow that when jobs are being contracted out are those jobs still there in the same form so in a time when half of the people of middle class don't do as well as their parents, this can still cause some concern.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: The second factor, the social proximity through neighborhood integration and intermarriage seems to be continuing a pace and he gets very good evidence for that.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And my big question here is what what does it mean for simulation now for it to be regional because this neighborhood integration is happening in some parts of the country, but not in others, and will it matter in the long run if regional factors.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Are techcrunch precedence now or ultimately will it all ironed out.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And the third factor that he talks about his moral elevation through the greater diversity of popular culture that movies, like the black panther the rise of hip hop Latino mega stars.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: All of these things have broadened the culture with much more diversity, I mean think of Hamilton, for instance.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: And here I.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: agree that this is true i'm also think that the diversity has brought us fox news and Facebook and unchallenged lies and I worried that we won't necessarily be able to reach all of the people who are most likely to.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: need to appreciate diversity, so this is a concern of mine on on this, but these were questions that I thought of as he was writing and mostly what I thought was this was a.
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Susan K. Brown, UC Irvine: Fantastic argument bringing in a multiplicity of threads and many, many different arguments very contemporary that need to be thought about and talked about, and I believe his book will be cited and considered for a very long time, so thank you.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, thank you for that terrific comments so Richard do you want to perhaps respond quickly and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Very quickly yeah because I.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Thank you Susan that I.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: appreciate those comments, and you know Susan brought up an aspect of the book that I really didn't have the time to.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: touch on much in my talk, and that is I present a theory about how I you know my viewpoint is that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Both the simulation and racialism are kind of processes that are kind of baked into the way American society works, but they can rise and fall over time me meaning become more important.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: or less important over time and i'm folk I focused on you know under what circumstances does assimilation become really a mass phenomenon and I argued that there are certain non zero some conditions that that assistant and Susan.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Have graciously pointed out what those what those conditions are and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I let me say that I think that her concern about geography, is extremely important at the moment, I mean, I think.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: As we think about the mainstream expanding it's clearly most evident in some parts of the United States and not at all evident in other parts of the United States.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I can't say whether this is really has any parallel in what happened in the past.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I can't certainly can't say whether this is going to change, you know, in the near future, I do regard the future as not fully determined, and you know it depends on politics on the economy.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Things that are very hard to predict from from from today's vantage point, but I think it's a very good point that i'm glad you raised it, thank you.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific so so what we're now going to do is move to the Q amp a.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: portion of the today's session so.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You can either send me questions in the chat or you can raise your hand.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And then we can let's see there are already question Okay, so there are a bunch of questions i'm just going to proceed by reading that i'll go serially.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Question from David Abraham let me ask, if I understand correctly, first the inheritance of the one drop rule as you point out to storage, even the raw data falsely increasing the people of color numbers second the political or quote class for itself and quote reality.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: is more salient than the demographic quote class in itself, unquote many slash most Latinos in Asian Americans will live white regardless of discrimination, they may face is that a fair conclusion.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay i'm late, the first one again remind me I got lost and.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: seems to me the two questions let's let's go one, at a time.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For the inheritance of the one drop.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: drop from yes correct that the.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: rundown distorts even the raw data.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: False does.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Absolutely that's the data or distorted there's no question.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, second, the political or class for itself reality is more salient than the demographic class in itself i'm not entirely certain I mean I know the rat race.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Here, but i'm not I don't know what that means exactly but.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But get to the next part and.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Many most Latino and Asian Americans.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: will quote live white regardless of discrimination, they may face i'm not sure what.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well, I don't know I mean, certainly not regardless of what discrimination, they may face, but I think it's the case that many Asians and Latinos and certainly mixed.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: White Asians and white Latino and white Latinos are going to live in social environments, with many whites but those environments fail, I think, over time, the kind of mainstream environments are also going to become more diverse now live white implies.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well they're certainly going to live in in socio economic circumstances like those people around them, but I don't think they necessarily are going to live.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That not necessarily going to fully adapt all of the traits that we think of as associated with white culture, nor did the Catholics and Jews.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Who, you know assimilated in the middle of the 20th century, so one of the distinctive features of that assimilation was the assertion of hyphenated identities, something that had been.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Absolutely scorned, you know by the white Christian elite of the early 20th century, but became sort of important forms of self assertion and even to some extent of cultural maintenance as simulation proceeded I think it'll be the same.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: there'll be more diversity.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, we have several questions from Marcel Roman i'm going to start with one of them is it possible that.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One second sorry, things are moving, is it possible that mixed race part white families are politically liberal relative to single raise families that are white that's.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The preferences attitudes of mixed ethno raise children will still oppose that model racial whites on average.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: If so, this would suggest changes in demography still pose a threat to those with an ethno nationalist conception of the United States and that there may be structural shifts in the political preferences of the mass public against current white Anglo norms.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I think that's possible, but I also think another outcome is possible, and you know I i'm.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Looking at the very recent data and granted we don't really have you know the full supply of data that we need to interpret the election outcomes, but what I see.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Is a rise in Latino support for conservatives political stances, I mean the you know, it was a big surprise to find that Latino support for trump apparently went up.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Between 2016 and 2020 and I know you know we're talking about it a huge and very complex population, and there are a number of distinct stories that go into interpreting that increase in support, but what I see.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: With my particular lens, if you will, is, I think that the more assimilated Latinos were also more likely to vote Republican, then the less assimilated Latinos, for instance.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In the Latino decision state of this in few not you probably are all familiar with Latino decisions, which is a group on the west coast.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: headed by Latino political scientists that does survey work on on Latinos their election data show that college educated Latinos and high income Latinos were more likely to vote for trump.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Then less educated and less affluent Latinos I think the education variables here is especially King because Latino college education is really rising as a result of these kind of similar Tory forces and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: It may bring more people into white environments where they are.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: that are more somewhat more conservative and will lead to a larger conservative vote I don't know I don't think it's clear what the political implications of this are, but I think that there will have political implications is sure.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, thank you hey now a question from Carlos monk motor vehicle and who says hi I enjoyed reading the book.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And he he he posted a polling question, you spoke of the replacement theory which is often regarded as quote white genocide by white supremacists with our political and social world becoming more divisive.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: How do you see the these races to actions of waste segregating themselves to protect their bloodline from assimilation.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: playing out in the next few decades well also with the rise of Donald trump and conservative media consistently sharing views that aligned with white supremacy and their fears, is it too late to change the narrative of whites versus minorities.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well, I you know there's a hard questions to answer, I certainly hope it's not too late to change the narrative.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But I agree that in our polarized circumstances of the moment there's a large part of the white population that is vulnerable.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: To white nationalist appeals now I think it's important to bear in mind about the white working class voters that many of those who voted for trump also voted for Obama they're not beyond.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You know they're not beyond change in opinion, especially if we can craft a diff I think this country needs a narrative that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: offers the opportunity to people from all backgrounds to buy into that narrative and the the majority minority narrative is, you know as, as I said, very divisive I don't think it can succeed.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In doing that, if we change the narrative could we kind of move the you know sort of moves the boat a bit I hope so, but I can't guarantee it.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay question from art that Canadian how fair, is it be directly compared the experience of past non mainstream religious groups.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Who and appearance did not greatly different from the Christian white and charting would that be simulations minority groups, whether physical appearance something they cannot make a change is one of the most striking differences with the White majority.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Actually I think it's a fair come, I think I believe it's a fair comparison, and let me tell you why I think that from today's perspective, it looks like the differences between the Catholics and Jews, on the one hand, and the Protestants were very minimal, they were not.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: There were to some extent actually physical differences, I mean there were you know features that we're, seeing as stereotypically Jewish or Italian or Irish but more than that, I mean people knew.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Who was what for for reasons of name schooling bear in mind that Catholics overwhelmingly went through a parochial school, at least for some of their education.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: went through a parochial school system at the time, these were very salient social differences and I, and for that reason I think it's not unfair to compare them to today's differences, which are, moreover, not exclusively racial because there are many Latinos.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: For example, who can who can you know pass as as white, so I think it's a fair way to look at things.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: There i'm the assistant still open for questions, so let me we have another one from Marshall Roman, let me.
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Let me sure.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Here we go, we have a lot of evidence that the strength of non white ethno racial identity can motivate liberal policy preferences and ethnic, racial attitudes and political science, even among those.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That are feeling typically are effectively proceed this way, what does your evidence theory have to say about, for example, white Latin next who feel as if they're racialized and find themselves socially distant from white Anglo counterparts.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That it seems particularly pertinent given many latinx many of them white and well integrated in the United States may feel like they don't quote belong in the US relative to Anglo whites yeah.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well, you know I think we have to have i'm not sure what the evidence is and i'd be happy to learn more about that evidence.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You know, I think that, for example, what one can see in their marital behavior is that they, you know that they experience feelings of comfort to some extent in social environments where there are many whites.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I think, also one underestimates I mean part of part of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: what motivates the book is to remind people about the relevance of the past and and to bring out what we potentially can learn from the past.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That applies to the present and I think you know early on, I still remember this sentence in the poor doesn't about immigrant America, where they said throw out.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You know all of the models that come out of the European immigrant experience, and that was a really, to my mind of a huge intellectual.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: A diversion I mean really moved us in the wrong direction and we have forgotten, a lot of important things about that experience and one of those things is there was a lot during this period of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: in which these ethnics became part of the mainstream there was an enormous amount of interest group friction.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And certainly there were plenty of Jews and Catholics of various you know national arches who felt like they didn't quite belong, I mean this to me.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: is part of the mobility experience that i'm using mobility here in a very broad sense to me people moving into.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: social environments that are very different from the ones in which they grew up, and I think it's a common that people feel like do I quite belong, they have doubts about whether they belong and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: So I guess I don't see these doubts as somehow as decisively different as the questioner is suggesting.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, let me see whether there are other questions okay from Robert morehead is the flip side of the growing mobility of a diverse mixed race population, the persistent lack of mobility for black Americans.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Well, does it have to be I mean at the moment it is, I mean only in the sense that these are empirical facts and that that blacks are not gaining.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: As much from you know the the sort of the opening up of the Labor market, as are the immigrant argent groups that's what the book shows does that have to be.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I don't think it does, but I think that the barriers, the racism in that is an American society that creates.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: unusually high barriers for black Americans is going to require special efforts to overcome it won't I mean you could say that these assimilation processes are really kind of giving.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Immigrant argent minorities, an opportunity, but they are not working for black Americans, they did not work for black Americans in the past, either, so therefore.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: We need a different approach to enhance the possibility of black entry into the mainstream and the book talks a little bit about social policies like reparations that could you know that could advance sort of African Americans.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, so let me.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: abused my position as moderator to.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Go ahead abuse go ahead abuse it.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I knew, you did ask questions well.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: So, so the first.
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So.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: I guess two different types of questions, so I mean one your emphasis has really been on processes of inclusion.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Inclusion goes hand in hand with exclusion and and I and and i'm wondering whether you.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: succeed in identifying the new process or the processes and structures of exclusion that are distinctive today today's.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: era now you know much of your emphasis really is on.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: flows in and out but fundamentally in turn Whites are flowing out and that creates opportunities for.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For people of color to move in but, of course, there were also the flows that come from that that are that come from beyond us assures that are fundamentally driving this demographic dynamism and.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And those flows increasingly inbound a highly selective migration and so much of the change that you report, for example, at the university level, but.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: let's say type of change, we see here at the University of California that one season, the Ivy League, this is really the byproduct of.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Two different types of globalization, on the one hand, the long term permanent relocation of highly selective.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Immigrants and on the other hand, the massive recruitment of international students, which has has grown very significantly on which American universities depend so some of that greater.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Good fraction of that greater diversity that appears in the academic world is really the result not have greater opportunity for long term us residents of minority background, but in fact just the opening up of the system to a global elite and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay, so certainly.
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yeah.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Let me ask take them one, at a time, you said two questions is that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Is that one question I got.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One of them yeah.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Okay, so so.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I mean, I think, obviously, you know the Asian population in the United States is highly selected.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But will it remain trance now I mean calling it it's a global elites sort of suggested it's going to remain transnational I don't think.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: i'm not i'm not saying look, I mean, for example, you know devilish kapoor wrote this book The co authors book, the other 1% about the about Indian Americans and.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Immigration been probably more rapidly than.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: than any other any other immigrant stream and we know that a disproportionate share of Hindi and so Brahmins I mean they're.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: qualified and you have the elite backgrounds and there's no reason to think that that's going to diminish on the contract.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: saying I wouldn't dispute that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: but are they integrating into the American mainstream I think they are.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I think they are but, but let me just add this so one of the big phenomena of the last decade has been the surge of Latinos.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: That are now going to universities and acquiring baccalaureate degrees.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And I think just demographically that's very likely to to continue so that's not the story of a global elite it's a story of a group that is coming more from the bottom of American society, and you know succeeding by being very.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: driven and and pushing ahead, so I think it's you know it's it's it's a mixed story, but it is certainly a story in which this society from top to bottom is becoming really more diverse and.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: in which the mainstream is really going to be reconfigured because of these immigrations now, you said there's a story, people are being left out well.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Unfortunately, you know in and you could say that this book describes something very similar to what happened.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: In the middle of the 20th century, and that is that white ethnics leapfrogged over African Americans and took up the opportunities that were opening up in the post World War Two.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: economy and society, some of the same thing may be happening now, I think that's true i'm not you know, and I think it's something that needs to be.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: attended to, but it's also points out how really false is the majority minority narrative because minorities are very different, and they face very different.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: chances in American society.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, I have, I have at least one other question, but now we have one from Karen pally so let me read that.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay let's let's move to a slightly different topic the category quote Latino makes very little sense there's not just a class difference that is pronounced, but also a difference in ethnicity.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Most Mexicans with the sentence, at least in part of the indigenous people of Mexico, but the upper middle and Upper class in Mexico is often wider.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: This is even more true Latin America, where European immigrants are the descendants dominate the political industrial and professional classes.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: So I don't see how we can read the politics of this huge group of people from the category Latinos.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Asians is the same people come from different countries political systems and economic circumstances, so how can we predict their politics and many Arabs and Jews don't identify as white, so I think that's more of a comment, but perhaps you.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Will yeah I mean, I agree.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I agree.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, other comments questions from the audience.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: All right, well, while we're waiting, I will pepper Richard for another one so.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now, I mean the other so coming back to to the historical comparison.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Yes, so and we've talked about this many times before, but hopefully can continue talking about it in the future, but obviously one of the fundamental differences is that the great migration from eastern and southern Europe emerged during a period of uncontrolled migration.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Which men yes.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: legal status was everyone arrived there was actually no, no such thing as lawful permanent residents and everyone as soon as they arrived, they were immediately eligible for citizenship, you know that is fundamentally changed and and we know that.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That State status, as in fact become much more differentiated and its consequences are very significant and its consequences have changed, I mean Susan frank sheldon the recent book that the.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That that even for a population was relatively well established as at the time, their data was collected, nonetheless, one could detect.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The impact of parents undocumented status roughly 20 to 25 years later on their children now those were went from thinks about the the the the survey that Susan the prank collected, this was.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: I mean, I thought about, especially the Mexican origin responses, or the lead said Latino immigrant responses as a class of 1986.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: very fortunate people were able to to experience a relatively easy and quick legalization now here we are we're almost.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: What is it where we are 35 years since the last legalization with no legalization in sight, and so, so that suggests, I mean, on one hand, the comparison.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: We have a we haven't then a slightly later than and a nap I mean so it's not just the Europeans versus the contemporary immigrants, but there are differences within the contemporary Americans but don't you think.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That the much greater importance of of legal status and very different overall political environment it's going to have again is going to is going to be a source of a type of stratification ethnic stratification that we find.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: And i'm not saying I never said, as the book says, this is not a replication of what happened in the past.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: But that we can draw lessons from the past, I completely agree it there's a different kind of stratification and and and and and the undocumented hat being undocumented has generational effects.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: It appears, which you know that's that's important I don't deny it, but you know rob smith's forthcoming book i've read the manuscript shows that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Yes, if you, you know if you had undocumented parents and you are undocumented you really have no chance, I mean you're not you're not going to experience mobility in American society, but if you had documented parents or if you're if you're a US citizen.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: You really have a chance to move up a lot of the of the people, he followed were social, these are Mexican second generation kids growing up in and around New York experienced real mobility in their lives.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: So I you know, I think.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: you're right that's an important part of the story, but it doesn't eliminate the kind of story that i'm paying attention to.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: agree Okay, let another question from Marcel Roman is the mainstream that immigrant groups non white groups are assimilating into is it racially politically liberal.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: watch a polarizing questions of race, ethnicity immigration will the immigrants who are proximate to white anglos assimilate to the Liberal Democratic wide standard as opposed to the Republican conservative white standard.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: For this we had this question before I think to sort of rephrase um yeah Okay, so I can't say because I haven't really looked I mean I haven't really looked.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: At the political character of the social environments in which these young mixed mixed group mixed background, people are are integrating it's a really good question you know it really needs research.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: This is a beginning effort to open up a new way of thinking about things.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, all right, well, we seem to have come to the end of our list of questions, so I want to thank Richard for a terrific presentation of a fascinating book Susan for very stimulating comment thank all of the audience for engaging with us today or reminder that we will meet.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Next week, same time same place for an interesting discussion of a related book written by Michael Jones and James McCann on pitino political behavior and attitude so with that.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: I thank you all say yeah.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And and hope to see you next Friday and Richard will reconnect on that other link of.
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Richard Alba, Graduate Center, CUNY.: Where am I going.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: to you.
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Okay.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay.