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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Well, good afternoon, and thanks for joining us i'm David Fitzgerald I co direct the Center for competitive immigration studies which is co hosting today's event, along with our friends at the UCLA Center for the study of international migration.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): every Friday we're having looked seminars this quarter, you can find information on all of our activities at the websites of both centers.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Next Friday at the same time, will be hosting Richard Alba, with commentary by Susan brown to discuss all this new book The great demographic illusion majority minority in the expanding American mainstream.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): But today we're fortunate to welcome Alan colburn and karthik ramakrishnan to discuss citizenship reimagined a new framework for State rights in the United States.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Alan is assistant professor of political science at Arizona State University he's a former visiting fellow at CC is so welcome back virtually Alan.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): And karthik ramakrishnan is professor of public policy and political science at uc riverside.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): are discussing today is correct Ben sack he is assistant professor of political science at uc San Diego so the order today is that.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): The two authors, will give a brief overview of their work for about 30 minutes, then we'll have a 10 minute comment from Kirk.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): will kick it back to the authors for a quick reaction and then open up the discussion to everyone participating today.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): If you have a question, you may use the Q amp a function at the bottom of your screen or simply electronically raise your hand and you'll be invited in to pose the question directly to the authors so without further ado, please help me welcome Alan and in karthik, the floor is yours.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Thank you, David Allen if you could do the scripture.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Excellent so thank you so much for welcoming us here, and many of the ideas i'd say or ideas that Alan I have been developing over the years and.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: folks at CC is and elsewhere, has been critical to helping shape these ideas, over time, of course, the standard caveats we alone are responsible for any.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Of you any of the things we're about to say that we really are grateful for communities scholars and colleagues who've helped along the way, and next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So seat rates, it is, it is provocative, the way we had the subtitle of our book when people think about state rights when they think about states and rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's usually it's not a pretty picture right, if you look at the long history of slavery and then Jim crow and now.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know just a week after what Georgia did in terms of restricting voter rights under the image of a plantation with a bunch of white males signing away.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Political rights to an entire entire groups of people, at least in terms of what the what the likely effect will be.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's it's not it's not encouraging so when we think about federalism in the context of rights it generally has been images, as well as policies that are removed rights for people of color and other disenfranchised groups like side.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But that's not the only story when it comes to federalism and rights we look at women's suffrage just last year, we celebrated the centennial of of the women's right to vote across the country.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But we need to remember that well before that you had expansion in in women's voting rights for us at the local level and then across several Western states before it spread to the east coast and then ultimately became became part of the US Constitution next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: More recently, we can we can look at marriage rates and how expansion in marriage rights occurred because of our structure of federalism, enabling expansion of rates at the state level that then ultimately got ratified by the US Supreme Court excellent.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So, generally, we want to think about federalism, at least, having the potential here of that ideal that Supreme Court justice Louis Brandeis had articulated a long time ago.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Where a state may, if it says choose service elaborate laboratory and to try and novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country excellent.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now the story of empowering states is not always a progressive one right and we defined progressive states citizenship actually in a quite a narrow way.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: What do you see in this slide is essentially if you had to summarize Chapter two of our book and maybe even the entire book, you know this book has a lot in it.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But if you have to leave with one composite images will be this to think of citizenship as multi dimensional and multi level and also to think about the relational nature between federal citizenship and state citizenship next one.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So first you know less some people may argue that we have we're putting up a straw man or a straw person only to tear it down, but this notion of citizenship as unit dimensional and binary is something that is still quite strong.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Maybe not in sociology maybe a little bit less so in political science, but this is very strong in legal scholarship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So an Allen and I have presented this to audiences that include law professors and practitioners of the law.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: For them it's pretty cut and dried in terms of who is a citizen is not an end, and it's around this notion of legal status legal status as the.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Factor the category that controls access to a whole bunch of political, social and civic rates and we see this on the literature, more generally, on citizenship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: From chuck telly to Rogers blue baker and Peter shots to others, so in this visioning citizenship is exclusive to the national level.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And it's a litmus tests either you have said it either you have legal status or you don't know legal status the implication goes no citizenship legal status means you do have access to citizenship and it's a pretty powerful argument.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You look at what California has done, for example, will be SES regime of progressive states citizenship, you still have the US Government through border patrol and ice able to detain and deport anyone that chooses well in compliance with federal law.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So there's a limit to what states can do with respect to its citizens, so this is something we have to take very seriously in terms of what citizenship ultimately may mean and maybe that is the kind of gold standard of citizenship, if you want to excite.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now, in response to that kind of unit dimensional notion of citizenship is tied to legal status you've had a rich literature in the social sciences.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That talk about citizenship as multi dimensional and to go beyond legal status, where they show that you can that communities can exercise political, social and civic rates without needing to have federal legal status.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You also talk about citizenship as participation in society so citizenship is it kind of exercise the practice of citizenship, if you will.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: that's our citizenship is practice and then finally citizenship as a sense of belonging now this isn't a tradition of to Marshall citizenship as having multiple dimensions.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And you see authors like Elizabeth Cohen, I read blue rather than others in this tradition, I read blue brad extend that further is this notion of partial citizenship as opposed to full citizenship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: with potentially different dimensions in mind, you also have a robust literature when it comes to urban citizenship global citizenship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That that talks about citizenship is potentially occurring at multiple levels, but it includes many of these different concepts lumped together.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So when Alan and I tried to do in here, relying heavily on alan's strength and background in political theory.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And the work we've both done drawing and getting inspired by the comparative politics literature in democracy is to create a systematized concept of citizenship that is akin to what we've seen that the democracy literature in comparative politics next one.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: out so one more side, I think I got ahead Okay, so our definition of citizenship is quite simple but it's complicated, or at least it took a lot of work.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I was just telling this teaching this to my class this past week, and I said, you know we take, we take about 30 pages to elaborate this very simple sentence here right and they and they laughed, so this is our definition citizenship, and if you can go to the next animation here.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So we say that citizenship, the provision of rights, but by political jurisdiction to its Members so fundamentally, it is about membership.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's about political jurisdictions and it's about the provision of rights now there are other definitions of citizenship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We we don't say that ours is superior to any of those, but we want to grounded and rights, because the standard critique of those multi dimensional conceptions of citizenship is that they are weaker.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That conventional notion is is very elegant and it's grounded in rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And people talking about citizenship as practice citizenship as a sense of belonging ultimately cannot answer that question of citizenship as controlling access to rights so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We didn't want to see that ground and we want to really innovate year and thinking about citizenship as multi dimensional while still remaining firmly in the framework of rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And the provision of rights by jurisdictions, as opposed to natural rights right God given rights as it work that that is just fundamental human rights that that has nothing to do with the ability of a jurisdiction to provide those rights that's right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So if you if you have observed the the literature, the democracy literature it's been it's been exciting, but maybe for some people, a little too complicated in terms of how concepts get systematized.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: This draws on the work of David call here and a bunch of other colleagues to talk about conceptual hierarchies and so we can think of the route concepts, either as membership.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Or, as citizenship and then go up and down the ladder of abstraction to to talk about different aspects of this this core concept.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right, so if you start off with the root concept of either membership or as a political membership, you can keep going up to each level of overarching concept to get to citizen, and then we consider national citizenship and states citizenship as classical subtypes of.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Of of the root concept of citizenship, actually, I should say yeah you started flipping membership and go down to different subtypes or you can start with citizenship and go up in terms of overarching concepts to get too political membership and then ultimately the membership next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So there's a lot here, if you look at our book in terms of these conceptual scars just quickly if you go from membership to political membership.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Political membership is one of several types of membership that that people could hold right, so they can have membership and racial and ethnic communities religious communities.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: diasporic communities or even outside of politics, you know, in terms of sports and entertainment fan base now people might laugh, but you see.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I see flags for CEOs you know, no matter where you are in the country, people will hold up these these symbols rate of their political membership, and there have been cases of people killing and dying.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: With respect to disputes over over sports fandom.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So going down one level so it's, not only is it membership but it's a particular kind of membership that's political membership.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But it's not just any kind of political membership, because you can have party membership and interest group membership, that is not grounded in jurisdictions.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So it's grounded in jurisdictions and below that it's it's grounded in rights right, so you can have other kinds of citizens other kinds of.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Political membership that is based on participation, based on representation, based on power or based on identity and we provide examples of what you would call.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Exact all of those different examples of those classical subtypes excellent.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now some people may say that states citizenship is a partial citizenship and not a whole citizenship, but we argue otherwise.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We say that it is possible to talk about semi citizenship like Elizabeth Cohen does, but to talk about it.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Either at the national level or at the State level or even at the local level right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That is how partial or full you are on those different dimensions of rights that has nothing to do with jurisdiction.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: jurisdiction, we argue as part of that kind hierarchy, so that national citizenship states citizenship local decision or say global citizenship would be subtypes of citizenship next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So what do we consider a citizenship we consider a citizenship as the right to one of five dimensions first dimension is the right to free movement and this.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: builds entirely on alan's dissertation and the forthcoming book on runaway slaves and it's comparison to undocumented immigrants today.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Maybe put typically you have that Southwest and you are free to move about the country well there's more true for some groups and for others.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And this includes not only immigrants who may be subject to to search by border patrol as well as ice, but also to black people and others who are routinely stopped by law enforcement, as they go about their business.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: second dimension that we that we flag is the right to due process and legal protection that's fairly standard i'm not gonna spend too much time talking about that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Third, the right to develop human capital, and this is something that is an innovation in our book that's pretty significant one.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: we've had supreme court cases that have upheld the right to the K through 12 education, you have Congressional law that established the right for any person to access emergency rooms.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But what are these rights represent we argue that these represent the right to develop human capital, the fundamental building blocks that people need to thrive.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Fourth dimension, the right to participate in the represented, so we can talk about right to participation in terms of voting rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: It could be other types of participation rates as well, including providing public comment to rule changes yourself the right representation.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: The trump administration tried to take away the right to representation, through its apportionment process, but the by the administration has.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Has overruled it through its executive order, but that is a way that people who any person could be represented and you don't have to be a US citizen to be represented in Congress.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And then, finally, the right to identify and belong, we provide examples like removing all mentions of the word alien and california's code.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: but also other examples like for driver's licenses for transgender people having official documents that don't force you to choose between male and female is part of that right to identify and belong next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So importantly states citizenship can exceed federal standards of non citizen rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And it's structured by broader federalism dynamics of the US Constitution course Congress parties and movements and now and we'll talk more about that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And so it can be this multi layer cake, but of course there's a lot of potential for conflict here and that's a major part of our book next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So citizenship in that for some framework we argue can be progressive, meaning that it expands rates about those provided at the federal level.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: or established state level protected classes in the absence or silence when it comes to federal rights and we have examples there.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: there's also regressive states citizenship right, but what many Jim crow states did after the civil war, what states like Arizona.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Do routinely with respect to immigrant rights where they restrict or erode rights that are supposed to be guaranteed at the federal level.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: or when the federal government is silent, to establish state level provider classes that take that remove rights that might otherwise be provided in the absence of legislation.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And finally, reinforcing citizenship reinforcing citizenship or instances where States use us citizenship as a basis to either include or exclude.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So, for example, state driver's license requirements in most states that don't affirmatively allow those without federal legal status to obtain driver's licenses are reinforcing.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: federal law when it federal immigrant federal citizenship status when it comes to access to state benefits and there are other examples on the exclusionary side.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: On exclusionary side state anti discrimination laws that be enforced federal rules would be an example of reinforcing states citizenship that is an exclusionary direction, so I think Alan I turn it will be.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Great i'm gonna kind of move into the rest of the book, so we have Chapter two that lays out much of what karthik was just speaking about our conceptual framework.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Of federated citizenship and kind of how we get to the Multi dimensional understanding of states, citizenship and so throughout the book we.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): unpack and apply our concept of states, citizenship and the three different types that karthik had laid out there.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): To understand both the African American experience of citizenship in terms of citizenship rights and then also the immigrant experience citizenship rights, and so we look throughout American history and we develop a an ap or an American political development framework to explain.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Different developments in the different types of citizenship at the state level that we see emerging and so to explain.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): The development of states citizenship we argue that.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): national citizenship.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): looms large in the background of em providing an existing baseline of rights so during the antebellum era for African Americans.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): They were denied national citizenship, they were effectively denied from having many federal rights, and so the baseline there.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): was non existent allowing slavery to emerge throughout the South and allowing near kind of slavery restrictive laws to emerge in the north, and so this constitutional background lays the foundations for.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): States citizenship to emerge in different ways throughout American history.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): As the Constitution develops so thinking about the 14th and 15th amendment in particular we see changes in the way that states citizenship looks, especially for African Americans.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): But we say that still we see similar patterns with constitute constitutional developments in terms of.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): preemption over federal immigration law and the changing dynamics that happens with state restrictions or progress on on undocumented immigrant rights.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Building on top of this constitutional framework we argue that the legislative actions and executive actions at the national level.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): really set the foundation for what states can do and then within states we argue that social movement building and building a coalition with allies in state legislature, are key to explaining what is happening at the state level.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So i'm going to go through, and just kind of highlight how we apply our conceptual framework mostly to the African American experience, historically and today, and then also briefly conclude with the immigrant experience so as karthik laid out.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): We have three different subtypes but the two that really emerged in the antebellum arrow so before the 14th amendment.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): nationalized his citizenship for African Americans, we saw restrictive version of states citizenship emerging and then we also saw a progressive version emerging.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So the restrictive version actually reinforced federal restrictions, since the Federal Government did not provide rights, rights to.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): national citizenship or other types of rights along our framework blacks essentially were reliant on what state and local governments were doing in restricting or expanding their rights, and so in the south, we had.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): States expanding on this kind of restrictive federal environment.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Creating a kind of robust system of slavery laws and in the north, we see some States moving in a similar direction.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): in enforcing federal fugitive slave law with at the State level to redeem and recapture and send back runaway slaves to southern slavery.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): But we also see resistance to this in the north, and we see a range of kind of abolitionist lead states who fought to protect the rights not only free blacks but also runaway slaves.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And so we see this across and we kind of map this out throughout throughout.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Chapter four of our book, where we highlight the different dimensions, both on the restrictive and the progressive sides of states citizenship that emerged before the 14th amendment.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): For example, the right to free movement dimension one, there are a range of laws raw states that that regulate the interstate entry and also the international entry of blacks.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): There are different laws requiring menu mission papers and slave passes and tags to regulate the movement of both runaway slaves or slaves, as well as free blacks and this is occurring, both in the North and in the South.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): We see sunset curfew laws and bankruptcy laws and other types of restrictions on the mobility or movement of free blacks and enslaved blacks.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): dimension to have our framework due process and legal protection, here we see states either building on top of the restrictive federal baseline.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): To enforce federal fugitive slave law or to enact and enforce their own State fugitive slave laws and anti harboring laws so these laws essentially.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Would track down runaway slaves in the north and return them back to southern slavery, we also saw States, leading in removal campaigns to remove free blocks and and and other.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): blocks of status of different statuses from the country or from there from their own borders and then an opposite opposition to this, we saw.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): northern states like Pennsylvania and Massachusetts in particular who enacted a range of personal liberty laws that look very similar to today's sanctuary policies regarding undocumented immigrants, so these laws, not only.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Not only severed the connection between fugitive slave laws and what the state and local governments and officials were doing, they also provided and expanded new rights to court access other types of protections under State law and by state officials and local officials.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): We also saw a range of other types of rights are emerging both restrictive and progressive throughout the antebellum era.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So i'll briefly just highlight dimension for here, the right to vote states like Massachusetts and New York allowed free blocks and also runaway slaves to vote in in their elections, and so this is prior to even having national citizenship.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So I want to transition and so after the 14th amendment and it establishes a kind of constitutional right to citizenship for African Americans, we still see states citizenship as being essential to.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): To black rights, and so we saw along all five of our dimensions, the right to free movement due process legal protection, the right to develop human capital.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): The right to participate and be represented in the right to identify and belong on all of these different dimensions, we see after the federal government ends reconstruction these emerge in what we would call Jim crow.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And so we not only saw kind of.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): A big movement from 1965 or 1865 to 1875 where progress was being made at the state level once the federal government left.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): The South and enabled white supremacy and and democratic tape of cake takeover of southern states.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): We saw return to kind of restriction, but we call this under our framework regressive states citizenship, because at the federal level, we do have.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Both the constitutional right to citizenship and a range of other civil rights laws that had been enacted throughout we reconstruction, and so we see the South.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Essentially regressing these rights that were supposed to be secured at the national level, leading to kind of really robust Jim crow.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Type state repressive regimes.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): i'm going to briefly transitions for time and, importantly, and thinking about our framework applying to the immigrant experience.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I think that this really highlights the the the ways in which focusing on just citizenship rights and Disconnecting this from the idea of legal status at the national level.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): is important, moving forward, it allows us to think about the ways in which the African American experience with citizenship rights.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Can can relate to what is happening with immigrant rights today, it also highlights the importance where these rights aren't.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): They don't have to be tied to to legal status at the federal level in fact voting rights and other types of rights can develop on their own at the state and federal level, separate from legal status.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So we briefly for the immigrant experience in California when when California was founded in 1850 it had immediately enacted a range of regressive laws restricting.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Essentially, all five dimensions of rights for different groups now, this was applied immediately for blocks and Native Americans.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): But, as we saw the immigrant population grow in California, particularly the Chinese immigrant population and then later the Mexican immigrant population.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): We saw a range of laws being enacted to repress their rights as well, especially with the 1879 constitution in California, so this spans all five dimensions of our framework.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And in our chapter in California, we highlight this history and talk about kind of how are we how we not only have this regressive state citizenship past but also how we moved forward and developed a progressive states, citizenship and so briefly in the 1990s, in response to prop 27.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And a range of other factors happening, the immigrant rights movement started to build we also saw an increase role of Latino elected officials.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Emerging and slowly California started to build up a capacity to push for State policies, despite.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): All of the restrictions that were happening at the federal level, and so we see this progressive states citizenship emerge.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Providing in state tuition and and and other benefits for education, providing driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Providing health care to some of our undocumented residents to robust sanctuary protections that sever.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Immigration enforcement at the state and local level and also expand the rights to things like legal protection or legal Defense in deportation cases, more recently, we saw in 2015 California.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): struck the the term alien from its Labor code, and so this we would highlight, as dimension five in our framework and we argue that 2015 was the moment when California actually.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): kind of compiled enough policies and expansions and rights to to be considered a full six states citizenship in the progressive sense So here we are you that once you have enough of each of these dimensions, we then call it, not just a partial But now a full states citizenship.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): One that kind of stands alone, and in parallel to what is happening at the federal level and the denial of national citizenship.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Someone handed over the cart that to wrap up.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Thank you, Alan so terms of future directions and censorship i'll be quick here next slide.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: No little bit of.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: just wanted to say how.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: kind of how fulfilling it's been not only to do this work over over five years, I mean now, when I look at the dateline there at six years.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right to from start to finish, when I when I first started this it was on the heels of me finishing up work with.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Pretty typical the sacrament of new federalism and Alan really wanted to he thought there was something really important going on in California and other states.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Using this kind of citizenship frame and so the work we did at the policy school from a policy brief essentially helped structure and frame up.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: front page news every time story right of kind of state citizenship that is taking shape and pointing to instances like a racing alien from the Labor Code as as an important step next time.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: More recently, when you look at California law, this is a bill that was signed by government Gavin newsom in 2019.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: by Senator durazo sponsored by SEN durazo and the title is citizens of the State right and something worth reading in the in the kind of preamble.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: For this bill would instead provide that citizens of the state are all persons born in the state.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And residing in it, except the children of alien public ministers, so you know they actually put that word elite back in after they took it out very good at.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And consoles and all persons born out of the state, who are citizens of the United States and residing within the state.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right, so this is pretty powerful to see this kind of a concept getting enshrined in State law and this isn't relation to bill that allows.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: anyone, regardless of their federal citizenship status to serve on appointed boards and commissions, as long as it does not violate us Labor law excellent.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now, looking ahead, we can think about other potential expansions and states citizenship, but but contractions as well, so, for example, the right to develop human capital.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Is there an immigrant right to health care, you know we still don't see that right that's still a limitation of the affordable care act.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: emergent work authorization states are not able to allow work authorization to their residents so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So undocumented folks have to come up with all sorts of workarounds in order to be able to participate in the economy.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: heartland Jesus read something that publishers when he was a candidate had touted we'll see where that goes, you know, in terms of allowing states either issue visas themselves or like in the case of Canada kind of point system where they are able to add preferential points.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: dimension for right to participate and be representative because we've seen contractions and voting rights in many states, and attempts to expand them in municipalities like San Francisco.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We see back at returned back to the mid 1800s early 1900s were white non US citizens have the right to vote, and not only for state offices, but Federal Office probably not anytime soon, but it shows you what is.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: constitutionally permissible in the United States and then we'll see what happens when it comes to redistricting.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: were certainly states like Texas have in the past, tried to exclude non US citizens from the from redistricting to say that it's not a principle of one person, one vote, but one citizen one book so we'll leave it at that and look forward to your engagement today.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Thank you very much karthik and Alan Kirk.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): hi Alan and karthik Thank you so much for that presentation, I really enjoyed it and even more so, I really enjoyed the book, I mean this is goodbye, from where I stand, an incredibly ambitious undertaking and really impressive result, I really enjoyed the book.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And so it's exciting and it makes me happy that I have a chance to comment on it.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): What it makes me less happy and excited, as I have to do this in about 10 Minutes because I don't think I can I can do justice to it, but what I wanted to start out.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): By focusing on is just one thing that I really at a very high level really enjoyed about the book and then i'll say goodbye to some to some comments that are not meant to be either.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): kind of things I that I like or critiques but ideas for potential extensions and spin offs that might be of interest to you to or two people in the audience and so to begin the.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): thing that I really, really liked about the book and that you touched on a bit in the beginning of the presentation was.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The framework, the conceptual framework there's really an incredible amount of theoretical richness that I thought that.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Instead of getting in the way of actually aided and understanding the real world, and I think one of the.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): least by my read of the book, one of the things that you were trying to do is is.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): come up with a way to provide conceptual simplification without engaging and what you call conceptual stretching and I think you 60 to 200% in that.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): In that regard, and just to sort of reiterate some of you already said and describe what I what i'm talking about that the fact that you've used.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): This sort of rights based framework that's already present obviously in a more restrictive form in the dominant national model of citizenship, but use that to extend to highlight states citizenship, I thought played really well.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): About do to anchor everything to a rights based framework that was not only conceptually succinct but also institutionally back through us federalism.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Constitutional frameworks concrete legal and bureaucratic processes real things going on in the world, so it's it's citizenship reimagined obviously.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): But, on the basis of things that are not imaginary at all things that are very real and concrete and actually way, one of the ways in which I found this to be most evident.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Was along the lines of something that I was initially at a superficial level when I just saw the term most skeptical about.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): which was in the final dimension of rights to identify and belong, because this is here where when I think what at first pass at least very superficial first pass just reading that.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): phrase, I think there would be the greatest risk of conceptual stretching and yet.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): You clearly and compellingly situate that dimension as well within a concrete rates based perspective and operationalize it with real things that are happening in the world, and so.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): But by my talent, the end result was a conceptual framework that simultaneously offered a clear and organizing framework for understanding the world, while at the same time.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Actually, describing what's actually happening in the world, so this is a rare very rare feat, as we all know.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): doing something like this that simultaneously both simplifies but also increases explanatory accuracy in depth, so I was super impressed by by the even a possibility of doing something like that in this context.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): So, with the remaining time that I have what I want to do is, as I mentioned really focus on some possible extensions and spin offs that are.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Just basically my reactions and what could be exciting to pursue for myself for YouTube for anyone in the audience.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Basically, using what you have this sort of impressive thing that you've built here and may be going in different directions, with it, and the first.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): direction that I thought would be super exciting kind of based on some of the sort of research that I do myself is.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): along the lines of public opinion so you've taken incredibly great amount of care and I imagine a huge amount of work to delineate the different dimensions of citizen rights, I should say.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): sort of the preface to this in these multiple extensions it's been going to focus primarily in the context of immigrant rights in the contemporary era for for reasons of.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The focus of this series so as I mentioned a lot of work, obviously wanting to delineating.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The different dimensions of citizenship rates and mapping those two concrete policy items in the immigration space.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And this is obviously serve you very well in the context of the book, but I can see, this is potentially being valuable for public opinion scholars as well right so survey and survey question design is really hard.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): and often what people like to do is create batteries of questions that map on two different constructs rather than identify what is the single most important question.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And the framework that you've developed as far as I can see, can be a really valuable foundation for doing just that, but just take.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The items or subset of them that you use to score states on the exclusionary exclusionary spectrum with respect to the different dimensions.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And then modify them into survey questions that are would essentially measure individual voters support for opposition to these policy items right and this.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): To me, would be really interesting and exciting and a number of different ways so sort of.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): At the simplest but still very useful level, you could see to what extent voters attitudes, first of all, what our voters attitudes and the extent to which they cohere with what their States are doing.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): But in addition to that, I could see there being a lot of really cool opportunities to.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): do things like apply unsupervised learning tasks on these sorts of data so as an example, using factor analysis or some other waiting variable model to see.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): To what extent boaters view of citizenship rights actually is along the same lines of the conceptual map that you lay out right there, I think there are reasons to expect.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): that this would be the case, but there are also reasons to expect that it might not be the case, and I think there's something really interesting theoretically there another example, would be to do something like us cluster analysis to see if there any.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Broad patterns and might classify voters and two different types you're defined by specific bundles of rights that they support beyond simply distinguishing people who are generally inclusion airy.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): versus generally exclusionary So those are just very, very minor examples of what could happen here but there's just lots that I find that could be really interesting going in the direction of basically modifying some of what you have into the public opinion realm.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The second.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): sort of reaction and idea I had was to kind of build on this to distinguish between the importance of normed versus instrumental motivations behind states decisions.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): To progress or regress but, so the book really focuses on enabling features like constitutional opportunities Congressional action and presidential action social movements, and of course the players involved, whether that be.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Immigrant rights groups or legislative champions at the state level that is focusing on truth is driving things, how are they How are they able to do what they did of course What were they able to do.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): What it does a little bit less, and this is not meant to be a critique at all because it's I think it's out of this.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): arch way out of the scope of the of the project, but what it did a little bit less on was go into depth i'm kind of unpacking the motivating features that convinced collective halls to go along either direction, so another way to think about this is.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): What we're what have been the winning arguments that seemed to convince.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Not only individual groups but kind of lawmakers as a whole or the body politic of overarching states to either progress or regress right, how do you actually get a sufficient critical mass of lawmakers foundations voters groups.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Everyone involved actually get stuff on the books behind this and and at a high level, I think we might think of there being two classes of motivations, the first.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): might be what we could call normative or moral motivation for relate to the idea.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): about human rights, dignity, fairness and related concepts that is treat people a certain way because that's what they deserve on a moral are going over the basis.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And then the second class and motivations would be economic or instrumental which relates ideas about how.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): The granting or elimination of certain rights will potentially affect broader society where I think in this context, a lot of focus is by placed on things like economic impacts and public safety impacts and so as one.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): very concrete example of this, they touched on in the presentation and speak about quite a bit in the book let's take the decision of certain States to grant driver's licenses to undocumented.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): immigrants, and so this can be, and indeed in public discourses and policy materials has been.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): advocated for on the basis of both classes and motivations right on the normative side it's about the right to movement, allowing for independence and dignity.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And on the instrumental side it's about allowing for a sub population of people who are known to be contributing to the economy.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): To actually and efficiently, contribute to the economy as well as to facilitate public safety gains in the way of driver training and tasks.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): associated with licenses and the ability to get auto insurance, which you know helps everyone involved.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And so i'm personally curious, not only in the case of drivers licenses but more broadly across all these dimensions.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): about the extent to which these different motivations are winning the day clearly both are at play.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): But you know other ways to think about whether one is more important in different cases or they playing different roles entirely and actually getting things pushed pushed onto the box right.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): I don't think I have much time, but maybe i'll just touch.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Briefly on on a couple other things, but it'd be a little more sustained and i'd be happy to share my thoughts in more detail with you, Alan and karthik later, but another.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): idea was the extent to which they are interstate dynamics at play, and let me explain what I mean by that so, on the one hand we see States making decisions to deviate from the Federal baseline.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And, and the State might be doing that simply because that states preferences for whatever reason, are different from the baseline so all states.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): a scene from that perspective might be reacting to the same types of opportunities and on the basis of the same sorts of social movements to achieve their own ideal points the extent possible.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): On the other hand, there are at least, it seems to be on the surface, if you look at certain public officials.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Some public officials public statements almost an element of interstate reaction, whether it be emulation or negative reaction and contrast became preaching in California and Arizona.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): At least on the surface, it seems to be particularly present in this area right so, is it the case that States might actually be trying to not simply deviate from the Federal baseline to express the counterbalance each other, another way to think about this is.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): To what extent are stage preferences in terms of how much they want to deviate from the Federal baseline not simply an internal function but also a function of what other States are doing this is i've met very conjectural a bit theoretical, but if something that's.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Interesting in my own mind and then, very briefly I wonder to what extent similar sorts of concepts and the same sort of framework that you have applied here could apply in the immigration context as well to other federalist countries.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Whether it be Germany that also has a state structure or Australia or a federal structure of the province level like Canada it'd be interesting to see how similar dynamics have or have not developed in those countries.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And the extent that they had not would server served I think further elucidate the enabling conditions that are unique to the United States right with our unique constitutional features in the US beyond the federalist the federalist structure.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): And my final question which which you've already touched on karthik which I think is sort of on everyone's mind is what's going to happen moving forward so i'll leave it there again thank you so much for the opportunity to comment on this, I really enjoyed really enjoyed the book.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Thank you for those incisive remarks Kirk Ellen karthik we like to take a moment to respond to one or two of those points.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: i'll start and kick it over to Alan Thank you Kirk, and this is.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: splits yeah it's.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's great, but the feedback was was amazing, and I think you know, our hope was, I mean, I think, given, given what we wanted to do is to, I think.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Help set the stage of how to conceptualize and measure, some of these things and essentially show plausibly that it that it does explain what's going on in the world and then.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know the part where we and there's just so much kind of historical work and kind of complex causality here that we were you know we're a bit hesitant to have like kind of like I kind of.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know one kind of elegant thing about what are the drivers that do this, but certainly.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, we leave it up to others, and I think I mean I I you know my background is in political behavior in public opinion so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know either you Kirk or others I would love to be part of some collaborative projects and Alan does to have being able to convert these two batteries to then.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: To then understand both descriptive lead and, potentially, you know down the road to apologize, and then to do other things, with it, that would be exciting so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know if your game or others are game, we would love to be part of teams that that did that work.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, in terms of the i'll just say a little bit about the interesting dynamics at play absolutely you know.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: kind of diffusion or maybe reactions kind of backlash kind of dynamics wanting to differentiate from neighboring States all of those things absolutely are at play they're not in our.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: model per se, but I would also add, you know you also have dynamics between localities and states right so, for example, Texas passing preempted legislation to to wipe out what Austin is trying to do.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right California had a version of that when you had cities like escondida or hit closer closer to home in San Diego.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That it passed the landlord ordinance and then Governor Schwarzenegger signed a bill that preempted the ability to look at these from putting those restrictions on the books so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But yes, I think if we if we think of US States similar to countries and the kinds of dynamics interstate dynamics and we can compare thing absolutely right, we can and should do that, so thank you for flagging.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Now just ECHO, I think the comments are spot on and thanks for for all those comments um I guess for the the.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): kind of normative versus instrumental public opinion design, I think that that would be really a great way, not just for scholarship but also the activism side of of the work that we're doing.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Understanding, how do you frame these things, and also how, how does the movement understand what it's doing in each of the States and to do that more strategic.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So I think that there's a lot of a lot of potential there for for that to grow and then in terms of I would say the interstate dynamics and also the interesting dynamics and federalism.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I think one of the things that does stand out is just by centering social movements in our framework.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I think it's pretty clear that movement and building and capacity is still really important.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): More so often then kind of a diffusion explanation, although those factors are all there, and so, like the APP is very complex causal process.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): or mechanism and there's so many different types of mechanisms at work and we just try to do to ground that more so, how I situate myself as a scholar as a PD scholar so really kind of leaning heavily on the institutions and the movements and the relationships over time.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): But there are lots of different ways of kind of unpacking this.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And it's great to hear about like the the public safety and economic arguments and things like that that that helps connect what we're doing to a lot of the scholarship and then it's happening in immigration setting right now.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Okay terrific well, we already have several questions so let's begin with the question from Marion full blown who offers some information about her work on.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Higher Education and immigrant students, particularly around undocumented students with the question.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): i'm interested in how and or if you both think we can engage higher education institutions to think about their role in advancing these policies, perhaps in terms of advancing components of citizenship or basic rights.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Absolutely, so you know, in the book, we talk about advocacy coalition's right and.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, for people who want to say what matters more social movements or political parties in real life, yes book to the matter right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's not so you're not going to find that where we say Oh, you know really once a party gets a hold of something they can just like tear through it again, whatever they want to have done or the vice versa, is that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You can get all the legislative support you on, but if you don't have a social movement that's laying the groundwork for something to be able to push it, none of this is going to happen, and so we you know we rely me it's more of a framework it's not.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: mean to some extent you say well.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: If you're able to build these coalition's that include social movement actors higher ED you can think of them, some of them could be social movement actress but you know there's civil society actors of different ways, you can think about potentially as interest groups to.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: write, as well as allies within government all coming together so absolutely higher ED institutions and leaders have an important role to play, and they have played an important role.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: In the past, not only when it comes to advocacy on state expansions on rights at the State level but also expansions on rights at the federal level ELENA if you want to add anything to that.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I just briefly highlight that, I mean definitely college and university campuses are really important space.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): for youth and the youth part of the movements, and I mean there's the current push right now to ban protesting activities, both.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): In some colleges and universities and also just statewide, and so I think that that kind of echoes the 1970s 80s, environment and I think that that is important to the movement part of this story.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And so, certainly, and I think that the the work that's happening there with miriam's work at the national level is important way of maybe connecting the threads between national state and local and so and that goes beyond just the education rights that are in dimension three our framework.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Okay, we have a live question from hiroshi and whatever.
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Hiroshi Motomura: All right, congratulations, by the way, really quarter to reading the book and maybe you answer this question but i'll ask it anyway it ties into kirk's.
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Hiroshi Motomura: Concluding question about about federalism and real estates and I guess it's in some sense it's not a question that you can fully answer because it's about what you see in the future.
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Hiroshi Motomura: But here's where here's where i'm really curious I mean you devote most of today's presentation to defining states, citizenship and.
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Hiroshi Motomura: You talk about how states citizenship might expand or contract in the future, how might evolve, but, but my question really goes to what is the role of states citizenship, because it seems to me, you.
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Hiroshi Motomura: You tell two stories, or what i'm hearing could be heard as two different stories of states citizenship.
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Hiroshi Motomura: One story is the state citizenship is a zone of contest over national citizenship.
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Hiroshi Motomura: And so the point of reference, there is always that you know people try to do things in California, because they think they should be a federal law that allows driver's licenses for the documented or.
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Hiroshi Motomura: Whatever it may be it's the States district is the zone of contest over national citizenship and the other story is.
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Hiroshi Motomura: That states citizenship is is really a zone of independence from national citizenship that states citizenship in this story is hyper federalists that it's pre secessionist or even semi secessionist and the future is something more like what you see in the European Union.
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Hiroshi Motomura: So I guess it really boils down to you know where do you see this headed in the coming decades or generations.
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Hiroshi Motomura: How will this question be answered.
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Hiroshi Motomura: or but feel free to tell me that the question doesn't matter.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Where I see, thank you for a great question.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, part of it, I think, will depend on what happens with the bite administration and the new some administration, for example, let's just take the state of California right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And I think I don't know if I was talking, I think I was talking to a reporter.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And they were talking about the border the Border Crisis you know what's going on at the border and.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now, how how California, is going to handle this and with with kamala Harris being tasked to go there formally being.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Attorney General here, which we expect, and as I can actually when she was Attorney General California was fighting with the Obama administration.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: On enforcement issues, and right now, things are kind of quiet, but i'm It will be interesting to see what happens, you know will will the federal government accommodate I think so part of that is over.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: it's not a just a general question but kind of the particular dynamics of not only what parties are in the White House and in a particular state.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But even the kind of understanding it makes a difference to have Harris there.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right, as opposed to when the Obama administration was there, and you can correct me if i'm wrong, because I think you were part of some of these conversations.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: It didn't seem like there are many people in the White House are very sympathetic to what California was trying to do in terms of expansion of rights, so I think that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: It is partly at least now, it seems, given the number of California people, including Secretary of health and human services that it could be more of the former where counseling is the early adopter and starts infusing things into the administration.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So I doubt that would be my initial take on it.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: That at least things seem to be heading for states like California more in that direction, now I don't know what states like Texas and others would.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: would think about right, I mean they'll continue to sue and they'll try to use the course to.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: To try to move things in a different direction, but things could turn sideways right thing, so it could be that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, as we get closer to the midterms or two to the next presidential election, there will be an increasing push to try to crack down so that that would be my initial take in the immigration context on this question.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): i'll just I think it's a I mean it's a really important great question um I will kind of frame it a little bit more historically and theoretically.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I I see it like the role of states citizenship more as as changing depending on on on on.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Progress so before legal status is given at the national level, so before it federal baseline is actually there that is any way progressive on rights.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Then I see it, more as the zone of contest so before the 14th amendment, it was clearly a soda contest today California is clearly Arizona contest.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And then I see it, shifting becoming more complex towards a progressive federalism understanding of its role where it builds on top, and continues to push.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): What is possible and expanding on constitutional and federal rights and so and I don't know where that will constitutionally the question around immigration is also different from.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): From the question of the African American experience so then it becomes about just what you have once you naturalize and once you have access to those constitutional protections and there's going to be a different, more complex relationship or or role for states citizenship to play.
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Hiroshi Motomura: Yes.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Oh good good.
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Hiroshi Motomura: Well, I just wanted to just observe that maybe I mean maybe wasn't in my question that you really don't know the answer to this yet i've been I can imagine answer asking this question in 1858.
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Hiroshi Motomura: Is this is not a contest over national citizenship or as a pre secessionist, then what might have said it in 1858 or 1850 that it's always just a contest.
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Hiroshi Motomura: contest over national citizenship and you give a very different answer in 1861 so I mean I just I just want to highlight this is a dimension, you know I mean reigns me of what.
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Hiroshi Motomura: The former Chinese Premier john lycett about the French Revolution and its effect in the in the 1970s, he said, well, we we don't know yet.
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Hiroshi Motomura: So.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: yeah the thing I want to add is that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: This might mean, of course, given, given the potential for conflict under federalism it's always there, but I also want to, and this this might sound like kind of way out there, but I remember hearing.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: spoken word artists talking about what it means to be a Californian right, and I think we can honor that even outside of this kind of conflictual space and that's something I think and and even though the book we.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We we we set aside the question of local citizenship, we also point out that states can pretty much do whatever they want with localities and they have in the past and the Court is essentially states have.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: certain set of powers in our Constitution forever to be localities don't but That said, we could see a powerful expansion of you know what does it mean to be an angeleno.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And what are the kind of rates, we want to build regardless of what you know we're pushing the by demonstration and our Congress did it and so i'm hoping that that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: It kind of scripted it of course what you're talking about is is this is this kind of preview of things to come, or is it you know, is it setting up conflict let's also just see it for what it is and the impact that has on communities and how to look up.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I just briefly add one last thing is it gets the attention of your works you draw the attention to you.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): and your books is what states can do to restrict or regress versus progress, and I think I mean, ideally, you would want.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): In the immigration context for federal preemption of bad laws and federal supportive good laws and and then similarly in the like African American citizen context you would want the same were in progress can be made at state levels.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Okay, so we have a person from heather Stewart who begins by observing the right to belong with rights and access to justice are demanded from those who are otherwise black and brown advocates point out that citizenship as experienced by black Americans.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): does not protect them from government sanctioned denial of rights or maltreatment.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): While a night undocumented immigrants to continue to fight for legal status there's a recognition that citizenship does not protect them from discrimination or marginalization, what does this mean for the concept of the different types of citizenship and rights available to citizens.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So we we talk about the meaningful provision of these rights right we'd say the provision of the rights will be targeted provision of these rights, so we kind of skirt the question of access to rights, I suppose, but because one one thing you can just say is.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: we're mostly looking at laws that were passed and a little bit at implementation, but you know just, especially in our empirical work, I mean.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Those that you know each one of our chapters could be a book, you know if we if we had the resources to do it.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So that brings up an important questions right So if you if you have laws that that do not you know explicitly discriminate Nor can you find kind of other kinds of implementation rules that are clearly laid out.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: where you can point to discrimination in in the application of those rights, how can we talk about.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: differential access or provision of those rates i'll turn it over to Alan I mean Alan really want to credit him for it kind of the deep.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: The deep historical work to do this, but it's it's tough to just be in this kind of positive this framework of provision of rates.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And not explicitly acknowledging that different groups will have different access to those rights we try to say that it's differential provision of those rates but i'll also be.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I just briefly add that in a conceptual chapter, we, I mean the positive is part is to separate what we're doing from like the.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): The approach of capturing lived experiences or the approach of capturing the impact and the differential impact of policy and access to policy so we're not.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Including that purposely in our book, just to be concise of what we're doing and I think that that there's a lot more room for that type of work to be in conversation with what we're doing, similar to what Kirk.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): had suggested it could be based on public opinion and that could become positive so in some ways, it can be also ethnographic.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): interviews and kind of based on different types of jurisdictions and then policy, the environment, so I think that there's a lot of conversations to be made between the questions you're asking and our framework.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Okay, we have another question that, in some ways synthesizes to have kirk's questions the comparative question about other federalist systems and the interactions among the US states.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): The different version here is coming from, Fernando via guess, who says in my dissertation project I explore why urban citizenship.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): develops in progressive cities, both in Mexico in the US, to what extent can you apply your framework at the city level and countries with similar immigration federal system such as Mexico and then here's the new wrinkle.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Have you considered the transnational effects of pro immigration policies in your framework that is how progressive policies and legislation in California are influencing policies and other countries.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Well, when I did when I did that on our book, but that is that is great, I mean this is.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know people have talked about the right to the city, for example, and how I think it can work, the other ways well.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right and, in fact, a fair amount of I would say the imagination and the courage.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: of immigrant rights activists comes from what they have seen possible and other places and asking why not here, so I think it can go both ways, but.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): yeah so we're we're not looking at the International like institutions or movement opportunities and things like that, but I will say that, in the US conduct for my second book I look at the the 1980s and the.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): sanctuary movement that emerges here in the US, and there are important distinctions between like what is happening at the international level, with the sanctuary movement and then also what is fueling the particular city level policies that are sanctuary.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): But there's a complex relationship between those two things so domestic and international and we're getting there there's also a really complex relationship with abolition.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): When it comes to the international abolitionist movement and then also the US domestic one.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): So the Federated movement historical work is already complicated enough, and so we kind of skirted the international one, but that's an important kind of.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): puzzle in itself is teasing out when that when that becomes viable and important to in the 1980s, that was certainly what helped spark and gain traction for those movements, not just for the moral messaging but for other reasons.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): So when thinking about the causes of policy and how they might spread across jurisdiction what what is the role of the Academy.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): In this diffusion and i'm not saying at a normative level what should the role of the Academy be i'm asking what empirically do you think has been the the role of academics, if anything, and the development of these kinds of state level citizenship comebacks and changes.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And you can take this one, I can go after it.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): And i'll process, the question after you.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: yeah there's some academics like you know markowitz and in New York, who you know actually helped write the New York his home law.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: turns out, I mean it was sometimes be careful what you do as an academic because it was a it was a great kind of expansive notion of what states citizenship can be and and builds on his scholarship.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And that included voting rights and included race drivers licenses healthcare, etc.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And it actually so me to kurt's point I mean it's the public ready for the public at least through their representatives in the New York.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: State legislature was not ready for it was way too exotic put together as a package, it just didn't it didn't fly at all that said right there are academics in in La fenix like in new haven right in California and UCLA in many other places.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Labor centers that are that are.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Doing that work of advancing and expanding rights, especially worker rights and immigrant rights, I think we will be critical.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Then there's that kind of next layer of academic work where comparative scholarship absolutely right, I mean, I would say, even for California.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: right to be able to look across in different jurisdictions in different countries to be able to then say why not do this here, and then, finally, I would say there's also for historians too right so for historians, who can say listen there's.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: These rights expansions they've they've happened before in the United States it's happened before in these other states or restrictions.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: let's California feel like puffer chest too much it's like 450 years we found all sorts of ways to oppress our populations and we were talking about.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: there's a lot of recognition now of the 1875 page act it's like California was doing a whole lot to oppress their Chinese populations before the US Government ever got to it so.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Absolutely, I think there is a role.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: There, but in terms of David I mean I think there's more that could be done, I think there's a lot of myopia when it comes to policymakers and even intellectuals, in terms of what they think is possible or impossible in terms of rights expansive I think there's more than.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): just add very briefly, but I think it's really important.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): To think through how the concepts, we use and the terms we use actually provide meaning and create and construct meaning so and that's one of the things that we, I think.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): that's one of the motivations of the book is just rethinking citizenship as not an us them binary and simplified and a way that other rises.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): different populations in groups, so I think that that's really important, and even in terms of explanation, so the way that demographics are used as an argument.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Or to understand different patterns and policymaking and things like that.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): That it doesn't get attached accidentally as the fault of immigrant populations, and so the the scholarship and the concepts and variables and things that we use have a lot of power and and I think that that's something that we need to consider and can always be improved.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): You know, I just want to give the opportunity also have fun if Kirk community and others on the panel or any any of the other panelists anybody else on the call wants to jump in here with with reactions.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): And while we wait for that if for Alan and in Carthage if there are any of the other comments they hurt maybe you didn't have a chance to respond to yet that you would like to take a moment to respond to now.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: yeah I mean I actually so i'd be curious correctly, because you ran out of time, you know if you know, in terms of I would love to hear your thoughts, but kind of moving forward what.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know what you see kind of the realm of either what is possible or probable and not just in terms of expansion, maybe contraction to on some of these rights.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): yeah this is, I think, where to me some of the public opinion research would be really interesting because I think sort of us.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): As you guys were just talking about, but I can also see what some of this might not be known yet if there have haven't been.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Serious public opinion efforts on all these different dimensions is the extent to the extent that public opinion is not fully aligned with either what's on the books, right now, or what.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): might be looming down the agenda on the agenda later that could be two different types of backlash that would then I think could cause entrenchment.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Or we to your sort of unpredictable movements of regression that obviously are packed into all sorts of different complicated dynamics, whether you're talking about sub state.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): Sub state dynamics as well or interstate reaction between each other, and I think you know one thing I would be very curious about is trying to understand.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): It, are there any sorts of patterns across the geography of the US that are either correlated or predictive of where public opinion is more or less aligned with things that are actually happening on the on the on the legislative side.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): I don't necessarily have any particular particularly coherent theoretical priors on on this, but I could imagine there could be.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): reasons why in certain places, either on a regional basis, on the basis of demographics, or on the basis of where states are ideologically that there could be places where there's more of a discrepancy between what voters are feeling and what.
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Kirk Bansak (UC San Diego): what's actually being done by policymakers or.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I should.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: mention that in those places I mean to me this is this what's so fascinating to me in California is right, essentially two decades after prop 37.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: you've you've seen such a kind of robust multi dimensional set of laws that have been passed in the legislature that largely have held out.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I mean California has the referendum process which is different from the initiative, where voters they don't like any legislation that they pass and we saw that with prop 22 and.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: 85 right, I mean that was the That was the law on good workers and there was a lot of money behind it, and maybe that's The thing that needs to be a ton of capital behind it, and maybe generally.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Major capital in California is generally Okay, with all of these laws that were passed, and so they didn't kind of know the kind of thing to do it.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But in some states like in Oregon the first time they passed driver license expansion it did go up to a referendum and it and it and it got defeated.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Right and so that's but to me, those are like the cautionary tales but exceptional ones, in most cases, the public is kind of unaware of most of these laws, and I think on the flip of it, you have.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Progressive politicians, this is one of the things in California, when you look at the sheer number of laws and still that continue to be thing It just shows you how much us citizenship matters, it affects so many aspects of life right from one's professional life, to education.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: In so many different dimensions that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: What the absence of comprehensive immigration reform at the national level has done or citizenship at the national level is done is provided plenty of entrepreneurial opportunities for progressive state legislators in California to.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: pass a whole bunch and it's not that's another I think advantage of this.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: incremental approach to immigration reform, if you will, and that's something that and i've done another context is that you give different legislators.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know, different things, I can claim credit for right at the same time, the public isn't seeing this as like one big thing that's going to threaten.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: What they're doing, but there are some laws, so the so called state sanctuary law right, that is, it was an sb 30 seconds i'm forgetting the title, the number of it but.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But I came to La you know you had you have revolts, especially in southern California yeah these jurisdictions that were that were trying to sue to not be subject to to the provisions of that law that was a California values act right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: But ultimately didn't succeed, but yes, I think, absolutely paying attention, please I think of public opinion as a largely as a constraint, rather than a driver of policy.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: except when you have politicians like Donald trump and others who are able to activate mobilize and even shift opinion over time, but even then they reach their limits in terms of how much they can harness public opinion to to enact policy, this is where.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I think the advocacy coalition approach seems to make more sense and that public opinion it will matter in terms of when you've gone too far, like Oregon did on driver's licenses they didn't.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: It takes movement work to shape public opinion in the first place, to be able to make sure that new things that you're adding is not a shock to the system as it work and that people end up rejecting it through the political process.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And I don't know if you have additional thoughts on them.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): I mean, as one of the things I think that is really interesting to me is is the way that maybe public opinion can be used to understand like federalism events or conflicts that emerge.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): Movement events so like blm happening last year, how these might change.
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Allan Colbern (Arizona State University) (he/his): The strategic environment across the dimensions, and so I think that there's I mean there's a lot of great work that can be done, that that builds up and just really becomes more strategic and the movement way across the different levels.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: yeah that's a great point Alan I mean mostly we've been talking about immigrant rights here, but if you talk about black lives matter, and what that has meant nationally and different states, and this is where.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: I laid out some other work and Kurt you suggested this as well when you're thinking about kind of motivators and drivers thing about framing right.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: So if you're talking about justice reinvestment or reimagining justice that's one thing, but if you say defund the police, it might be the exact same policies hipaa way you frame it can produce varying reactions that makes certain policies more likely or less likely to happen.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: And so I mean David I think that's also a role for academics to play is maybe to.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: To help guide you know movement actors kind of with expertise and framing and public opinion.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Now that said, of course, something like defund the police still plays an important role for movement activists that.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: You know that can get fired up about reimagined public safety or justice reinvestment they you know they're going to stick with defend the police, because that's what's going to.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: get them out the door, and you know through thick and thin to to push a policy but yeah absolutely I mean we've been talking, mostly in the realm of.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: of immigrants and their citizenship rights, but if we think of black people and their citizenship rights or native folks or queer folks and their citizenship rates and we just kept up the possibilities here but, but that is something that I.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: were both hopeful that folks can think about citizenship rates in a more expansive way and not just in the immigrant context because.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: We certainly see the United States, but even in other parts of the world, especially in terms of queer folks and trans folks and their rights and how they're constantly under under challenging and under threat.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Well, thank you very much there's a lot on the table there's a lot of more important research to be done and collectively you've not only.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): shared your own research we really laid out a research agenda, and I know there are a lot of people on the call who were working in dissertations and also thinking about next project, so I think this has been a really generative discussion.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): i'd like to join you in our seminar next week, if you're if you're able to be with us as well.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): we'll have Richard Alba and discussing Susan brown discussing Richard all this new book The great demographic illusion majority minority and expanding American mainstream.
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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): Sophia is sharing the links to all of our events that we're hosting between UCLA and CC is over the rest of the academic year so hope to see you then and and have a good week.
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Karthick Ramakrishnan: Thank you, thank you.