American While Black: African Americans, Immigration, and the Limits of Citizenship

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Hello everybody.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: i'm professional sociology director of the Center for the slave international migration at UCLA and I am delighted to welcome you to the first of our spring book talks on migration issues which we.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: organized with our friends and colleagues at the Center for comparative immigration studies at UCLA as those of you who have been with us since the beginning of the year, know we meet.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: every Friday at this time same place for a discount for a presentation of a new book on migration with a followed by comment and then exchange.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: With the author so next week, we will discuss a new book by karthik ramakrishnan and Alan colburn entitled citizenship reimagined a new framework for states rights in the United States.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But today i'm delighted to welcome as our author neon be Carter who is an associate professor of political science at Howard university and the MB will talk about her new book.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: American well black African Americans immigration and the limits of citizenship, after the ambience presentation will segue to a comment by.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: A friend Paris was professor of political science and psychology at UCLA will go back to neon before reactions and then we will open up for discussion with the audience so.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Once we begin the discussion, you can send your questions in the chat or you can raise your hand and we can also make the.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: effect the microphone and the video available if you wish to post your question directly but without any further ado, let me segue to neon before presentation of her book.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Thank you for that introduction Roger and thank you to UCLA.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: For the Center for having me.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I bring greetings from our university the Mecca and Washington DC where apparently something very crazy has happened today that I have.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: just been getting alerts about but i'm very thrilled to speak with you all today about my book American wild black.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Because it's a topic that you know as a graduate student I came to because of my advisors research but certainly it became something that I was quite passionate about.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: For various reasons, so the story for how I kind of got here and get to this dissertation is really a story about my own family.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So my family's from this this place with the Green star it's called warrant in North Carolina in Warren county North Carolina at the far north of the state.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: warrant in is about a town of less than 1000 people, I think, as of the last census, it might have been under 900 people in Washington so it's a very small town.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And Warrington like a lot of places in this country is very much a black and white place at least racially the city has been.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Organized that way, the county and indeed the state has been organized along black and white racial lines where blacks sort of sit at the bottom of the racial order and whites atop the ratio order.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And in this place of Warren to North Carolina is where I really had sort of my most profound awakening about.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: This topic of black public opinion on immigration and I got to this topic because of work, I was doing with my advisor Dr Paul mclean and Duke university.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But it wasn't really until I was visiting my family and, in particular, listening to my uncle have a conversation.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Around some of these issues that I actually knew what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it, so my uncle Al is my favorite uncle he's a Vietnam veteran.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And a brick mason and when he came back from Vietnam, one of the things he did was start a construction company.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And at that construction company he hired all of my uncles and majority black employees who were all steel laborers right they were masons and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: other kinds of carpenters and you know other kinds of skill construction workers and by the sort of early aughts mid 2000s my uncle was you know.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: early 2000s my uncle was thinking about retiring and part of the reason that he was thinking about retiring was not just age, but the landscape it changed.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And one of the things that changed that landscape was immigration and the fact that white firms were hiring immigrant laborers and my uncle was bidding on a job.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And he was talking about it with a friend of his and in he was saying how he wouldn't get the job he didn't expect he would get the job.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and part of the reason he didn't think he would get the job is because the white company that he was competing against for this bit hired lets you know Labor and, of course, he didn't use that term they hire immigrant Labor.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And what made that difficult for him is my uncle routinely paid his labors i'm about $30 an hour.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Whereas the firm, he was competing against was paying probably a third of that to their labors and so he's having this conversation with his friend about these sort of dynamics and he was like you know that's how white people do.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I thought that conversation was really important because it highlight is something that I had not considered that much somebody like my uncle would know you know at this point.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know he's in his his about late 50s early 60s and is talking about how the racial dynamics of that State had changed.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: right there what we saw happening in Washington and what we saw happening to his business is black owned business.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: was really a function of increase Latino immigration to the state which had increased about 400% in the decade between 1990 and 2000 but what has not changed was sort of the racial dynamics that made that sort of exploitable Labor i'm.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: desirable and would also potentially harm sort of black life chances, but what I did not hear in that conversation, and what was really important to me, was any sort of animus necessarily aimed at immigrant communities.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: He had most of these commentary for white people, and so what I was thinking about in this as I approached his project.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: let's sort of the language of Gordon all port right where you say the same heat the MLC butter hard the egg.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And so here, I was thinking about the stimulus of immigration and how very differently, perhaps immigration was operating on blacks.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And how differently, I operated for white, whereas why seem to be hardening their boundaries.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: blacks were sort of in this sort of more amorphous space right they were sort of being melted but they weren't necessarily responding in the same way as white so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: What I was trying to understand, through this text is how race influences black public opinion on immigration, it seems like a simple question but it's certainly not when we've spent a lot of time engaging as political scientists.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And where we have I don't think we've we've spent a lot of time thinking about how black people themselves talk about some of these issues.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And, in particular, I was concerned with how black people are able to marshal some sort of national identity.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That would help and they're sort of formation of these ideas about immigrant communities right because, being an American, I think, is something that we talked about often but we don't necessarily consider.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: How differently different kinds of Americans experience American identity and, indeed, if you're a black person.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That experience with America is going to look very different than a white person's because America doesn't necessarily operate the same for everyone.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And indeed, if you're someone like my uncle right my uncle is a child of Jim crow so the way that he understands his national identity.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: is different, he essentially went from being a I mean he's experienced that of all phase of this life of being say a non voting person to being a voting person to being.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: A sort of you know, provisionally voting person right if you're thinking about the current regime post Shelby county but all of that is to say.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Being an American has not met the same in securing black rights as it has for white people so when we're talking about, or at least when i'm talking about.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Immigration, it is important, necessary and absolutely essential right to understanding how differently blacks think of themselves.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: With respect to their nation and then, if we're thinking about approaches to black public opinion.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think if you cannot have that conversation without also having this historical piece added on to it, so I think there's a very present.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: or present just bias, when we do some of this work where we're looking at what's happening right now and that's understandable.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But the right now is conditioned on some other things that happened before it, and so I think.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: This history is actually going to be significant for how black people connect what is happening in the present.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right to this sort of racial socialization that they have gotten through this longer sort of historical memory.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And then, of course, what does it mean to be black and what does it mean to be American are those things, the same thing and to the extent that they are or are not what does it mean, then, for how blacks think about something like immigration.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So one of my sort of first places for starting this work is the preeminent black scholar w EB dubois who talked about this notion of double consciousness.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And one of the things that I found here, at least, is the need to sort of decouple americanness from blackness.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and recognize sort of the citizenship part of this as sort of an administrative construct that won't necessarily open any doors for you, particularly if you're a black person so thinking about that, then, in particular, what black ones are.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: This particular passage from the souls of black folk was particularly important for me in this highlighted part.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right, this is sort of what blacks have been striving for some place where they can be considered part of the body politic but not necessarily have to sacrifice.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: who they are, as a people right and part of doing that or part of sort of approaching this work then meant that I had to sort of con construct for my own self a notion of a black identity in America and I don't know that you know those things have.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: have fully sort of crystallized for me nonetheless, this was an important jumping off place for me.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To think about what citizenship means for black people because, at the heart of any of this my argument is what blacks are attempting to do is gain access.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To the body politic to be considered full members and be able to participate fully in this project that we call America citizenship is supposed to bring that to you.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But reason evidence right, I mean we're in the middle of a trial for Derek chauvin, for example, who murdered a black man.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and broad daylight on video, and we still have to sort of have a trial about what that means, so what that tells me as a black person is that being a citizen doesn't necessarily make me any more secure.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And if americanness is supposed to be the ultimate arbiter of that security, then I can't count on that as a black person So the first thing I was thinking about was moving away from assuming right that, because people are black Americans are our.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Citizens of this country that that means that they are able to exercise the same privilege, with respect to immigrant groups.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Likewise scholars of inner minorities relations who've helped us really think about what it looks like when people have different communities minority communities come together.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Have you did I think some important insights, but these insights I think still don't quite get to where I want to go don't approximate where I want to go because coalition and competition theories.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Really leave white people out of the story right so, on the one hand there those scholars, a coalition, who are you that shared minority status may cause groups to work together.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And that might be true on some limited kinds of things, but what are they working together for and what are they working together against.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: largely their own exclusion and that exclusion doesn't come from nowhere that exclusion comes from the operations.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: of white supremacy in the way that it sort of contains the life chances of these communities.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: The problem also is the fact that, when we look at the competition theories right which says that, because of limited goods.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Or the sort of finite nature of resources groups might find themselves just jacking meetings with each other for position, whether it's school board positions or City Council position cetera.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Again, these groups didn't create the rules, so the conflict is sort of baked into the process, they may not actually represent any racial animus right it just represents the fact that there are only.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So many City Council seats we can't share them so are these groups really competing with each other, or is it just the nature of the the systems that they're operating within right that sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: privilege, a certain kind of competition in absolutely are going to create competition to be politics, after all, is a competitive business.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And when we think about again the way that we are framing how these groups find each other or find themselves in contact with each other, I find that far too often.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: These ideas of kind of said this don't really take seriously how minority identity actually operates right minority identity and sharing an identity as a excluded Community or minorities community is only one way that we actually get to.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Something that looks like working together.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And even this idea of working together, I think, is something.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In a political realm that we talk about a lot, but at least we only really expected out of people who are non white.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And part of it is that I think something that we hope to see because we view these groups is having common interest but it's never really clear that these groups see themselves as common interest.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: As having common interest, excuse me, and when you think about a group, like black people who among minority groups are some of the most politically incorporated.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: There may not be a reason to work with other groups, particularly if that group is viewed as being anti black.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So on the previous slide, for example, I showed or another red apple boycott from brooklyn New York from a couple summers ago where there was an all out melee between black patrons of this business and the Asian employees of this business.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And this was very reminiscent of the red apple boycott declared gene Kim talks about in her work bitter fruit.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and much of the conversation around that was like wow this is so tragic, these groups these groups these groups don't see themselves like each other, but no one ever asked why they should and certainly no one ever said well.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Who has what to offer a coalition right so in a place like New York City, or even in a place like Washington DC.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black communities are pretty well.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: ensconced in in the political environment, and so, working together with others who may not be as politically.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: viable.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: may not be useful, and if we take to rave hamilton's argument.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: About coalition's from black power into a.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: into consideration, then we have to close ranks first, before we start working outside.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I sort of mentioned this already, but the racial sort of parts of these kinds of coalition competition theories which are useful.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: don't really think about how these groups start to come together in the first place right or how these groups find themselves in relationship to each other in the first place.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: right that everyone's opinion of everyone's ability to sort of move to be mobile, etc are constrained by these other kinds of systemic issues.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Around class and in in access, etc, so if we are going to talk about sort of inter minority coalition of competition, to my mind.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: There is no way that you can do that and not talk about white people and, in particular, white supremacy, that is the system that favors.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: white people instructors all of our life chances according to skin color nationality sexuality, a language, etc.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: If you're going to talk about how minorities, find themselves in these kinds of relationships, then it is absolutely fundamental to me.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That you bring whites back into the analysis and this is what i'm attempting to do in my text, so I offer a theory of conflicted nativism which, I think.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: helps sort of advanced the conversation because I don't want to move past a coalition conflict theories, I think they have a lot to to teach us.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But I do think it's important that we start thinking about the black white parachute racial paradigm, not as passe.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But as really the sort of framing for how these communities are coming together and, in particular, if you want to understand black opinion, from my perspective, then it is absolutely necessary that we have that we privilege.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: How black people think about race here, and what I argue, is that if we take that into consideration, that is, if we really sort of taken.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: listen to and value what black people say about race in their socialization around race.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: What becomes clear is that immigration is really a way for black people to talk about their still impartial inclusion.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: right that we are in an era of official color blindness in a moment of official color blindness group right group based remedies may be difficult to secure for the types of systemic.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Racist practice that people experience, so what we do now is individualized racist practice.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Some person did some bad thing to another person so Derek chauvin put his knee on the neck of George Florida in marriage murdered him.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But we see that is disconnected from larger systems that devalue and dehumanize black people right, and if we do that, and to the extent that we do that, we do it a lot in this country we don't really get to this sort of deeper understanding of how black people see racism.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In my argument and in my theory argue that blacks don't see racism as colorblind certainly don't see the America is colorblind and don't experience racism necessarily as individuals, although individual bad things may happen.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: What is the case that black life becomes conditioned right by these systems of oppression and what immigration does is help black people articulate fears about their own exclusion.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And how the face of these new immigrants of color might actually be utilized by whites.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: to further the white supremacist project, therefore, when black people are talking about immigration what they're talking about is their own uncertainty and the way that race conditions um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black life in the US right and so really immigration is a cipher it's not a thing right in and of itself that black people are really concerned about there is sort of no evidence that this is a top 10 issue for black people, but what is is racism and hate crimes right and so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Durham because of where I was located at the time, but also because Germans, a very fascinating place.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: is one of the sites that I talked about a lot in the text and I devote a chapter to Durham as a case study because Durham I think is a racial exemplar.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: The city is largely black and white, and there are these new incoming groups but it's also southern and, in many ways, when we talk about immigration, we are focused on California, we are focused on New York we're focused on.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know, traditional receiving context Texas Arizona, but we don't talk about the South.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In the south, I think, has something really important to tell us, because it shows how these sort of black white racial dynamics that have been in place for a really long time condition.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: How these immigrants are theme and also is an important site of racial learning and I think that racial learning and that sort of memory of what race means is really significant for my work and how I think about it.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So what are some of the big takeaways from the book right and one of the big ones is that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: black people are pretty ambivalent about immigrants, they are not particularly hostile to them.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But they don't particularly love them either, and I don't think that that should be required, but I think it needs to be said, because there's a sense that because black people have had these struggles with inclusion that somehow.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right they're always and at all times to post to be the sympathetic group, and I think that sympathy exists right, but it is important to remember.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That black people don't really do anything around the issue of immigration, if you ask them to tell you something they'll say lots of things, but we also recognize that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: attitude is not behavior so what people say about immigration what people do about immigration are very different things so black people will tell you lots of things about it.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But they don't necessarily mobilize around you that's writing a letter to a Congressman that's going to a protest march anything right.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and I do think that immigration is part of a black political agenda one because we recognize that the black community itself is becoming more diverse.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But it's, also the case that immigration again becomes a really important place for black people to talk about what doesn't exist for them.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: What doesn't exist in their communities what doesn't exist in terms of their life chances that they want to see and looking at themselves next to new arrivals helps them crystallized it so while immigration is that part of an agenda in a traditional sense it is part of an agenda.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: which helps black people critique this project that we call America right and there's still a sense that systemic efforts to harm black people are afoot, and that America is sort of the chief.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: exemplary are that and that, if you look on most measures of black well being whether it's homeownership healthcare access, etc, it seems that black people are right on the money in terms of their understandings of how race functions.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In America, and I would not.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: sort of be.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: A good scholar of black politics of it, I do not lift up the late Nick Nelson here right.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and what he said to me, one of the first time that I tried to present something about this research is that if you're not talking about white supremacy.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: you're not talking about anything, and I think that's exactly right that when you're talking about black politics and how black people see race or think about race or utilize race.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: If you are not talking or thinking about white supremacy, you really won't, in my opinion, get to the richness, that is, this conversation, and also to lift up my now.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: deceased colleague RON walters our disease colleague RON walters right when he says what does this have to do with the liberation of black people.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think part of that liberation is in least in this text, and what I do see this text is a laboratory project is that I wanted to show that black people are human.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That we're not all saints we're not all sinners that black people are just people and we allow other communities to be just people all the time.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And we don't really do that for black people, and I think that's why we see some of these conversations is being recurrent resurgent instead of always around and that trope in particular of sort of black hostility is one.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That I at least wanted to interrogate in some systematic fashion so i'm going to say thank you and stop here and wait for Dr Perez comments.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, so thank you very much for the terrific presentation friend floors yours okay.

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alright.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Alright, so thank you for the invitation, if you would have asked me in 2005 whether I was going to be about 15 later years later commenting on the book written by neon be Carter I would have said, you know wouldn't that be something.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And i'm glad i'm glad that this opportunity happened jambi and I were peers colleagues now friends and colleagues in the discipline and so we shared some of the same.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: advisors worked on very similar projects we're sort of in that crucible where you know a lot of work on on race and ethnicity and politics, more generally, I think.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: came out of, even if we don't win they don't want to think about it that way, so i'm going to try to be very focused on on the comments and the questions.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: That, I have the book, I read the book when it was in draft form and I read it and reread it when when now that has come out in print.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And, but I think it's easier in order to have a useful conversation to to really bore down on what I think are some of the strengths and then some of the open questions that I think would be useful for future research to take up and build on this important work.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: So you know the contributions that I see in this book are many, but i'm going to primarily underlying two of them.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: So the first is that there is an incredibly important conceptual innovation here that has been sorely needed for quite a while now.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: and Dr carter's book is helping to address that need and the one that I see that's perhaps more important and simple, at the same time, is that African Americans have more than just a racial identity right.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: We tend to think of minority communities as simply operating on the basis of an identity that is the most stigmatized in part because I think it's the most attention grabbing.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: But you know, Professor Carter and the book she has published really sort of brings us a little bit away from that.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: precipice and reminds us that.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Black individuals, in particular, like most individuals are actually quite complex and that they have a good reading of the racial terrain that they're actually in.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: I also think that on this front, the book tells us a lot about what is fruitful when we think a little bit harder about the possible interface between the identities that people share.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And you know in this book that interface consists of one between racial and national identity which is actually not unlike a lot of the.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: antagonists in her book like Latinos who also have to juggle and figure out how they're going to combine or not different forms of being.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Last, I think the book on this particular contribution does a lot to broaden our appreciation for nuance.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: In black politics and this regard you know, Professor carter's book is part of a string of manuscripts that have come online as of late focused on the black experience and really.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Suspending a lot of unspoken assumptions that we have about how black Americans operate and how they conduct their politics more generally.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: The second contribution that I want to highlight, especially if you have not read the book is that it consists of very careful in depth work with what i'm going to call a non traditional population.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: So if you believe what I have to say about what I find as major conceptual innovations.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: If you believe that business, you know part of why these kinds of insights have not been produced before in some part have to do with people staying away.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: from trying to talk too hard to reach populations right so in some ways we a lot of what we don't know is because we have failed to ask, because we think that it's too difficult too cumbersome.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: To engage with other segments of the mass public now I think in political science, you know jambi probably faced an uphill climb because up to this point, we do think of qualitative work on average.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: As maybe as something that contributes to our methodological efforts, but nothing stand alone and so her to her credit.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: I think what she has done is paired that in depth work with some equally careful historical analyses and then coupling that with some rich original survey data, and so what that has done, at least in the field in a field like political science, which is, I think.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Over consumed with quantitative work is essentially she she's able to lay out her argument and provide some convincing evidence to different audiences.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: right within what we know as political science So where do I see this book situated right I think that's sort of one of the ways that that is exciting to welcome a new books to think through.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Where it might fit and what additional insights it might lead to, so I personally as as a political psychologist WHO studies race and ethnicity see this book as fitting in in in in this growing segment of scholarship and political science, that is trying to call attention.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: To the psychological complexity of people of color African Americans included right, and I think that's a good thing and it to give you a sense of how important that is you know for the longest time and I think, especially when the rmb was in graduate school.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: You know anytime you set up yourself to conduct work on quote unquote non traditional populations, I think.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: There was sort of a sense of it was easy to dismiss that kind of work right because people could say well at the end of the day, the majority's actually non Hispanic white right and so that's.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: By implication that's where all the action is that is increasingly untenable, and so I would say the rmb was a little bit ahead of the curve on that front and I think now.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: She has laid out a template or at least the blueprint for why it's important to broaden our horizons in terms of what we know.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: about the various elements in this multiracial multi ethnic policy that we call the United States, I think, more importantly, I see this work as as as.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Renewing a deserved focus on racial hierarchy and sometimes the perverse incentives that it sets up for political behavior and misbehavior among people of color.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And so here's what I mean so Dr Carter is essentially calling attention to the fact that.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: African Americans consider themselves black and American and that that's sort of a unique experience, and that is consistent with what we're learning about.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: The very nuanced way in which racial hierarchy works in the United States, at least in contemporary times, so what you see here is an adaptation from work.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: published by linda's out and set the Chariot to leading social psychologists and what they argue, is that all racial and ethnic groups whites included.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: can be arrayed along two dimensions in america's stratification how American or foreign are the perceived to be and see themselves as and then how superior or inferior.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Are these groups seen and how do they see themselves as along that dimension, so we can gather from this rendition is there is a lot to what.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: That is correct, about what Dr Carter puts forth in her book in this rendition of america's racial order you'll see that, with respect to whites.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: African Americans, like their Latino counterparts are considered a more relatively inferior group right on socially speaking.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: But when it comes to the foreign American dimension, unlike their Latino and Asian American counterparts African Americans are the relatively more American right.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: In contrast, if you see Asian Americans, like their Latino counterparts are construed as a relatively more for more foreign group.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: But, unlike African Americans and, unlike Latinos they actually are view and see themselves as a more socially superior group.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And so, this is sort of the cage that we're talking about right, these are sort of some of the incentives that allow us to become sort of prisoners of this very cage and as the jambi sort of highlights in her book.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: The source of this discomfort tension and now right violence at times comes from the fact that everything is happening with respect to how these groups orbit the non Hispanic white population.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: So my main takeaways are that, even as a relatively marginalized group black individuals have an enormous degree of political agency with their American identity, being one specific pathway.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And I think that's sort of important to remember in discussions in conceptualization in theory about groups that are subordinated.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Having a lower rank doesn't mean that you don't have any control right that's what I would say.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Second, I would say another main takeaway is that to understand black politics, and perhaps the politics of people of color more generally.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: talk to them appreciate their perspective on their terms, it seems like such a non controversial idea, but sometimes instead of starting off with the assumption that we know.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: What these communities may be thinking it might be useful to just ask them and then base our theoretical and conceptual efforts conceptualization efforts on those.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Okay, so what are some blind spots in the argument and evidence and again, these are colored basically from my angle as as a political behavior scholar it's not you know my angle.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: As as a generalist by any stretch so with the term i'm conflicted nativism one question I had, and I think one question that.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: More skeptical readers could have is why does the nativism have to be conflicted right So if you read the book very closely, there is a lot of hesitation, a lot of hedging a lot of qualifying.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: The expressions and criticisms that her African American respondents have about.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Latino immigrants have particular, and so my question would simply be could it just be a function of social desirability.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: There equivocating but the ultimate sort of sentiment is one that i'm not a big fan right and and jambi said that but it might be not just i'm not a big fan, I really don't like you.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: So it's hard to rule out at least from my perspective, without additional empirical work that is not as as equivocal and I actually don't think that it's that problematic.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: That they can express more miserably attitudes toward their minorities peers or or co communities, if you will, so I think probably a one one possible alternative to consider.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And again, I mean it's to be determined, is that African Americans can be nativist under some circumstances.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: That nativism can lead to hostility toward other groups under some circumstances, but.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Prejudice doesn't equal power for supremacy in a racial order, where you have the lower station or rank and I think that's sort of the way.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: I can, I can see, you know some blind spots in the book and then still say up but it opens our eyes to how things operate right because.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: in as much as different groups can are Members of different groups can express hostility prejudice racism that's not the same thing as structural oppression right.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And so what I think I would have liked to see a little bit more is a conversation about those two possibilities and how they feed into our understanding.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Not only a black politics, but I think the politics of people of color more generally, and in particular because I think.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: unwittingly or not sometimes certain members of these communities of color do end up undertaking certain behaviors and expressing certain attitudes that essentially reinforce their own stigmatization right perverse as it may be.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: The other aspect of the book that I think I would like to hear more about you know you can't put everything into a book.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: is how the black experience as Americans as black as black Americans can actually serve to build solidarity at opportune political moments I think the zombies incredibly right that.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: If you focus on the attitudes and the psychology of these groups.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: You come away with a lot of insight, but you get a very impoverished view about why that psychology is the way it is, and it does have everything to do with the structure, like the way that these groups are actually ordered or stratified as.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: And as part of that, I would also want to know a little bit more about what the black experience can teach us about the experience of other people of color.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: In the United States, whether that is by example whether that is by outright overtures you know essentially what can scholars who focus on other communities take away right that is immediately applicable to their own individual endeavors.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: That is what I have to say, if you couldn't tell I was a big fan of the book.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: it's kind of hard not to be basically I drank the same Kool aid as as neon be but you know, I was, I was really glad that I got to at least voice what I what I really enjoyed about the book.

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Efren Perez, UCLA: Because i've been running around in my head with a lot of those comments, since I read it when it first came out, so thank you.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay Thank you so much, your friend, that was a terrific comments so maybe we should all try to drink the shame Kool aid we'd be better off so Okay, the MB over to you.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Oh, that was great I mean I appreciate.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: These comments, and I think you know these are some really hard questions, and I think sometimes for me I can't say I think for me right, these are things that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: i'm turning over to, and I think the way I, the reason I use conflicted is not because it has to be right, people can be baldly whatever they want to be, but I think it's conflicted because I, I do believe.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To a certain extent black people see that they are supposed to be the exemplars of what justice looks like in America so saying that you know these people.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: are like eggs right these people don't know that they can put toilet paper in the toilet and flush it and it'll be fine.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: i'm is viewed as like dang that's racist and so I don't want to be racist because to be racist is to be like white people.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I recognize that I don't have this power, so that people can say these kind of stereotypical bigoted things.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But because they don't have power they don't necessarily see it in the same way, but they are a student up to recognize that the language that they're using.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Would that be okay right in in the general sense, so I think that's why it's completed it doesn't have to be, but I think perhaps that's why, if I had to hazard a guess.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But I do think you're sort of i'm your last question about sort of what can the black experience tell us, and I think that's a really significant one, because I think you know we've been having this conversation a lot I think in this contemporary moment that we're in where once again.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: We are talking about anti Asian violence and black perpetrators.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And, and there were a couple of really high profile events that happened, the one in New York, and I believe there was one in either Minnesota or somewhere like that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Where there were blacks who had attacked Asian people and again it feels like 1992 all over again right when we're having these conversations about how black people are so hostile so hostile so hostile and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: We can look with this with the same straight face at a white man who gunned down six Asian Women into others.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And yet we're not talking about the pandemic of white violence against Asian communities and there's this really you know, to use your language of perverse incentives, where the tropes of sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think black hostility criminality is that your are easy to hang our hats on, and I think if we're being.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Aware right there part of what we have to ask ourselves constantly I think is communities of color it community that are often pitted against each other.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right Asians are used as a cudgel right against blacks against led to another to say see if you all had the right culture and you behaved, then you could be like these people.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And what we're always talking about here is exclusion exclusion exclusion, the ratio order is dynamic and it's not at the same time, and I think you know if we are.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: sort of circumspect about all of this, what purpose does it serve, and I think the black experience at least gives people some sense about what the purpose, what purpose it serves in the purpose, it serves is the sort of preservation.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of of whiteness and white supremacy as a foundation that look kind of goes on question, because we can break down the sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: hate crimes conversation to it's black people who are the perpetrators, even though there's never been a history of blacks coordinating attacks.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: against other communities of blacks rounding up other people, those fears are totally irrational it's not to diminish the very real acts of violence that happened.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But it is certainly the case that if we're talking about mob violence in America we're really talking about white people, that is a documented history.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Yet we talk about black people as the face of that violence, and so I think it's a really important sort of lesson on how these sort of ratio orders become in co located.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and become static and it's a very I mean it doesn't matter right that you know Asian Americans are relatively high status group.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right and sort of approximate whiteness.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Your barriers to full inclusion are around these very same things that people praise Asian communities for industriousness.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: thriftiness culture family right Those are the things that people say make Asian people successful but it's also the things that make people resent Asian people and why people as Asian people Where are you from.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Oh, you speak English so we'll never thinking about Asian people as truly fully American and I think the same thing happens with Latinos right the sort of way in which.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know a few years ago we were having all these conversations, Ms 13 is infiltrated America, and we have to start cracking down on these Mexicans in a meet it everybody Latino Mexican right that conversation becomes very.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Very one dimensional in the whole Latino world is flattened into one place in Mexico becomes the source of all eggs and Mexican people who are the most indigenous.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: become suspect foreign criminal dangerous, and so I think the black experience should be a cautionary tale to many people about how.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: buying into these stereotypes can really become a threat to your group.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: becoming full citizens not necessary to your group social mobility right because everybody's experiencing the structural differences.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: differently right agents do very well right as competitive as as whites, but when you look at the ways in which Asian people are sort of treated as sort of other.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That shows you how even buying into those stereotypes can be dangerous and then I think about the sort of what can the black experience teaches about the experiences of other people of color.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Is that, if you look both historically, I think, even in the country very moment, the borders of blackness are very porous there are lots of communities that have had to either i'm.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To either live with right service and other kinds of things black communities, because they didn't know what to do with them, the world was very are you white or not.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: into the since you were non white, then you were black in terms of how you were treated and I think.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Part of like you know conversations we have about Jim crow segregation is that we forget.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That let's you know people in Texas Arizona and California indigenous people in Arizona new Mexico all experienced that very same system.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: differently, and when we were talking about integration, for example, how do we get around it well we're going to call it to people white.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And we're going to put them in the schools of black kids so technically we've integrated but we've done it at the expense.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of these other brown people right, because we certainly willing to sacrifice our White children's education for this, and so I think it's one of the things that, at least for me that is always become clear.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: is how easy it is for non white people's to become black end not black right is to maintain a sort of a barrier around whiteness and I think that sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Cut point right for when you are sort of Okay, and when you are not okay looks different for every group, but it is very clear that if if the priority.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Is whiteness then all of these other communities for all intents and purposes are our black because we had a very white non white kind of organization here I think it's gotten a little better.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and I think I am also heartened by the places where we see groups forming solidarity so some of those places where I see that happening around issues like voting rights.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right so whether we're talking about Georgia or Texas or Arizona, and these places that are sort of in the very near future.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Looking to Georgia for a model right george's voting rights crackdown was about black voters in that state.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But when you go to Texas it's about black and Latino voters when you go to Arizona it's about native and Latino voters and I think those are really important important.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: generative places where these groups can coalesce and be in solidarity with each other, we don't just have our pain right to your point about sort of how people.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I racial identity is one pain is one but that's not the only place where we can coalesce we don't just have to coalesce around our pain and around grievance right there can be some very generative places educational access, for example, these affirmative action cases I mean I have been.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Really sort of happy to see sort of Asian American organization saying like this is not the way right to achieve.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: access and bringing in sort of black groups within the black group saying we want to partner with you, so that we can combat these sort of common stereotypes around say affirmative action and about black undeserving this.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and I think you know this is to maria's point in the in the chat right race doesn't matter until you're not white.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think that's a really sort of pulling it really sweet kind of way to kind of wrap this up, is that the lesson isn't it being a black The lesson is in being not wait.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: So I think that okay on that note okay Thank you so much, so why don't we segue to the to the discussion can either send me.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: questions in the chat or you can raise your hand so.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: At the moment I don't see any David.

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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): I, yes, thank you very much for that yummy I had a question I don't know if you've had a chance to read the new book by Jennifer Jones on the browning of the new South.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I haven't it's actually on my list of all the.

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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): So maybe reformulate this, but you know it's interesting because she's a sociologist and she did her field work in a different part of North Carolina and Winston Salem.

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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): The story that she tells is one of a lot of mobilization active mobilization on the part of with African Americans and Latino immigrants around migrant rights issues and it's a story of shared link feet across that ethnic, racial divide.

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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): So I mean I can't ask you to react to the book if you haven't read it, but I mean i'm wondering if you might just have some kind of broad sense, about whether that could potentially be.

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David FitzGerald (UC San Diego): A result of differences within North Carolina or if there's some other possible cause for that very different story and your account in hers.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: yeah I mean I think part of it might be just that Western in Durham a very different places, so one of the things that's really interesting about Germans Germans never covered by the voting rights act.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Because that's how many black people registered to vote by that time so that tells you something about Jerome I mean Durham had a very strong.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: middle class of black folks who are very active and two of the biggest sort of firms black owned firms mechanic and farmers bank.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and North Carolina mutual life insurance were based in Durham so Durham had a very different profile, I mean it's shared many of the same issues at a place like Winston Winston I think state rural longer.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and so Winston is a different kind of place, but the other thing I think that makes.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Perhaps Durham interesting is that you know, in the sort of early to mid early 2000s you had a lot of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: jockeying and jostling around i'm sort of how these groups we're going to work out some of their differences around like education so um I.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: guess it was early 2000s, where there was a lot of concern about bilingual education in the provision of bilingual education.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And with some black parents being very concerned that their children who were already missing valuable resources we're now going to be.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Without um because of the provision of bilingual education, but it was a really interesting I think organizing work happening there.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Were I think groups were trying to find commonality.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: and trying to think about how this doesn't have to be an either or proposition right, so how is you know, the provision of these resources for these children, not necessarily mean a deficit.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: or other children, and so there have been you know groups like Durham can, which was organizing like congregations and other groups to work together and trying to use sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Faith based institutions but also nonprofit organizations and other kind of community based organizations.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To bring people together and those people being you know black Latino others who who were fighting really similar fights.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But didn't necessarily have a way to to bring their common grievance together, so you know I can't I can't comment on her 100 book directly, but I do think there was some rough going there right like this was not going to be um you know, an easy story in one of the.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: kind of areas or early areas of break down what was over sort of a black Catholic Church being sort of the site for newly arriving or being designated the site for newly arriving immigrants to Durham.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And that black Catholic Church was not having it in terms of their identity.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And of course the diocese made this decision without any input thinking Oh, these people are going to see themselves alike, but it didn't actually turn out that way.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And, in part, what blacks were resistant to, but not necessarily that the immigrant folks were there, and, of course, having separate services in Spanish and other kinds of things, bringing their own sort of religious um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Images into the institution was that, but their their institution was not being respected right that they were not necessarily consulted about how this is going to work and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: weren't even sort of given I think an opportunity to really express what they saw as their sort of unique identity in that city um as a black Catholic Parish and so you saw some.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think real challenges.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In in that space because of these lack of discussion so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That is a not an answer, per se, but I do think unique.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Durham is unique in in in the in the way that it's black population has been maneuvering in that city for very long time that make it different from a place like wisdom, which isn't that far away, but Winston has a very different sort of i'm a setup.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific Thank you know, a question from the member of the audience Dennis Lopez and Dennis asks, can you comment on African American views of African American immigrants and black immigrants from countries outside of the African continent.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: yeah so I mean, in general I wasn't necessarily doing that work that's more of the work that you know candace Watts and a candace why Smith and Christina greer Atlanta hacksaw minutes a messy they kind of did work on sort of those kinds of questions but.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: When asked about what group they felt closest to blacks did fight.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black immigrants first right, so there does appear to be some within group fealty and that was also reflected on the cmt s of the collaborative multi racial post election survey the 2016 one.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Where blacks were asked whether they thought it was important that they advocate, on behalf of black undocumented.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: People and they said, mostly that it was important, or at least somewhat important, so I think what we're finding.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: With this sort of black undocumented population, which is just starting to sort of I think come to our popular consciousness right that, when we say.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: black people that we're not just talking about black Americans, it has taken a while, because I think we have treated blackness as it was.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: as uncomplicated is not variable right it's just we're talking about these kinds of people who had you know, a sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Experience with America as enslaved people who became free who became citizens and all this other kind of stuff but we've not really complicated this idea of who black people are even though we've known for a long time from the work of Mary waters and other people, you know that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: blacks from the Caribbean and the continent we're coming to the US and really.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: engaging with black people I mean look at shirley chisholm she's American born, but the town of immigrants who goes back to her.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Parents home country and is raised there and then comes back to the United States and in represents brooklyn flatbush in particular which.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: had a strong black American population, but also a very strong Caribbean population that had been there for decades, but yet they were all black and we saw the same thing with you know.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Representative Clark also out of New York bit of now represented by Yvette Clarke um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: These kinds of linkages have always been there, but I don't think we've taken them up in part, I think, because of the exigencies of race.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Where it's like yeah you may have an accent yeah you may come from someplace else but you're going to catch hell, not because of those things, but because you're black.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Which is why you know Rogers and others have found that you know some immigrant communities do want to.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: maintain that distinction, because they are trying to stave off the downward mobility that comes with being black American and the stigma that comes from being black American quite frankly so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: there's there's some evidence right that you know black people see members from these other places as a part of their community, even if they don't see them as exactly like them.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right, I mean they have different experiences, many of these communities do understand oppression, they understand why supremacy understand exclusion.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But they also get the same messages about black American criminality about black Americans having you know poor cultural values all of those things that we say to other people are also being said to.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black communities around the world, and then they come to the United States, in some cases and they're having their first experience with race American style right where.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: People are not asking you Oh, where do you come from people, just like oh you're black and i'm going to treat you the way that I treat black Americans, and you know whether we look at you know, the case of adelina.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: or even Amadou Diallo both immigrants both one murdered in one horribly abused by police you saw black communities.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Primarily American blacks but you know in in league with Caribbean and African blacks protesting those events, because these things happen to these.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Individuals because they were black, not because they were immigrants right i'm being immigrant complicated.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right, the question because partly what Amadou Diallo was reaching for was papers right to show that he was where he was supposed to be, but.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That sort of initial impulse to stop him was because he was black, and so there have been and continue to be, I think moments of great solidarity between.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black Americans and these African and Caribbean groups in a place like DC, for example, there are public facing commission's there's one for African affairs and there's another one for African American affairs.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think that's to signal the importance of both of these communities, but also the sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Very different ways that they are experiencing the city and then you have organizations like black alliance for.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Just immigration that had been doing a lot of I think advocacy work.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So not only just to bring us to some of the mainline black organizations that we know, but also to just increase general awareness that issues like Dhaka, for example, also affect black communities that hyper surveillance.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And over policing of communities doesn't just have a ramifications for black Americans, it also have ramifications for black immigrants who live in those very same communities and are more likely to be arrested.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: charged and deported right because of those things so those kinds of groups are also doing a lot of work.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: To to I think raise awareness in in black communities of all stripes about these sort of commonalities and is important.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: kinds of things and then, if you read any sort of um black media outlets.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think you get lots of really interesting kind of stories so like an Amsterdam news, or even like the agrio or the route which are more popular you're starting to see more of those things come up and more of those questions come up and then I think.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Even with the popularity of some figures, whether it's the rapper while lay, who is from this area but is Nigerian American Avon orgy, who is a comedian who's just had a huge special on HBO but also on the popular show.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Insecure where she plays an African American and, of course, she is but she's also Nigerian American and so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think there are become there's becoming a greater awareness, not that it was never there before, but I do think that we're coming to a place where we are now recognizing.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And starting to think about um blackness outside of black communities and more complicated ways, and I think even black organizations in black Community Members who are representing these communities are having to think.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In more concrete terms about what his blackness actually mean for the.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: For the Community that I live in like if you're in a place like where I am that means you have to think about West Africans East Africans folks from Trinidad.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Lots of folks from Grenada and black Americans right if you're in a place like Georgia.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: There are lots of Haitian immigrants in Georgia, that you have to be considered other because it's such a hub for so many kinds of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Industries you're also getting black folks with roots on the continent, and I think this is becoming more usual than it has been previously, even though there's this long history of sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black pan africanist kinds of organizing and conversation I don't think that there had been a lot of sort of complication of what it means to be black.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think scholars are becoming much more sensitive to that and I think black people themselves are becoming perhaps more sensitive to that.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, well, I don't see any other questions in the chat so let me then let Let me then pose a question and I want to come back to your opening quote from dubois and double consciousness, and so I mean there, it seems to me you're emphasizing essentially.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Two particular ISM so that is on one two particular isms that is a membership in a black Community or.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One which can take the form of kind of nationalist form understanding member of a black nation, and of course membership and the American nation, the American people and that the goal is that these become fully compatible that that.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That that being black and being an American are no ways contradictory and that and that one can be fully American while being black and and it seems to me that this essentially is.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The claim that is advanced by most communities of color that is that these there I these two identities should be completely compatible and it shouldn't be no tension between them.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But nonetheless the both of those identities are still particular mystic that's not a, these are not cosmopolitan points of view that.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It not, these are not embracing of all the world's people but it's a it's a particular conception of the way that we should be so we should be a.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: If you are multi ethnic, multi colored we but, but some some type of collectively some type of people and so i'm wondering, though, whether that that belief in people hood.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: isn't inherently intention with immigration, which, after all, involves the movement of foreigners of the entrance of people who are not citizens and and.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And, and so, if we think internally we think about views of people hood or viewers well all members of the people should be.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: treated equally, there should be no second class citizen everybody should be a first class citizen, but that doesn't imply that all the non citizens should be citizens and so i'm wondering whether.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Especially if you focus on the outward aspect on the immigration versus.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Views or interactions with immigrants who are around us, whether we shouldn't there, whether our baseline assumption shouldn't be that there will be some degree of opposition.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To immigration that immigration inherently it was going to generate an exclusionary response, regardless of what segment of the population, one is looking at.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: yeah that's a really good one.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think in some ways.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know I think there is a sensibility that um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know it newcomers are always threats to whatever the established status quo is right and that, but that there will be a period of adjustment and then people kind of move on once they realize, these people are here to stay, they want to be a part, blah blah blah.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But I don't know that it necessarily has to be that way and, in part because I think about you know sort of our immigration sort of system here which, at least at the founding was very permissive right, I mean the only real requirement was to be white and so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know I don't know that it necessarily has to be.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: tense with newcomers and i'm thinking here and i'm just sort of thinking through this question because I do think it's a really provocative one i'm thinking about the work of like bonnie hornik.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: In her book, democracy and the foreigner, and I think the way she asked the question was really important it's like well what what purpose do immigrants function like what work do they do for the Republic.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And it's not just about sort of disruption of the status quo, but it is a sort of I think constant reminder of who we are and who we want to be, who we profess to be.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And so that it is the case that maybe immigrants could engender the worst of us, it is also the case that immigrants could make us better.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right, that if we say, these are the truth that we hold self evident right that if you say that these are the things that we believe in then someone sort of choosing you.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Have firms, the sort of goodness, and the rightness of those things that you say you believe in right that somebody wants to leave the place that they're in and i'm using voluntary leaving because we know, leaving can be very.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of course dicey right people leave all kinds of reasons but assuming that people leave their home countries under the best circumstances right.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: they're going to make a choice about where they want to be situated in the world and they're choosing you.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Then, that is something that is saying something about who you are so clearly who you are is desirable, the organization that you have as a nation is something that people would want to associate with would want to.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Come, be it a part of and so.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: It, to my mind right this idea of immigrants is sort of upsetting the applecart in in in disturbing a notion of who we are doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And it is also, I think predicated on the notion of we are unified we write that we know who That is right, who we are, as a people what constitutes being an American or what constitutes being.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Argentinian or something right like we have a very clear sensibility about what that is, and I think i'm I know what it is to be an American but I don't know that I do.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I don't know that my vision of America comports with saying what 75 million other Americans believe about what this country means hey like I don't know that that is the case, and so that, I think, maybe perhaps immigrants can help clarify that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think they can help us maybe revive that um and I also wonder, to whom it becomes a threat right and under what circumstances, because I think that's also an important part of this, I mean because the.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: The different I think postures that we take towards immigrants are not disassociated from all of the things that we might be experiencing as a place right.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Depending on what's happening with us, depending on how secure people feel depending on sort of what the economic cycle looks like right, we can.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: We we might have an experience with immigration or immigrant people at one point in time, that we may not have at another right, so we can think about sort of the moment that we're in right now, where you know.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: 10 months 12 months ago How long have we been in this nonsense over a year now.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: right but 1314 months ago.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um with that particular President, and with that particular political environment, it probably wasn't a good time um maybe you know 48 months before that it might have been a slightly better time I think you know the ways in which immigrants are sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: treated i'm.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: used for various political out in.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: is highly dependent on the time, and so, whether we believe in immigrants as being able to be part of US or view them with suspicion, I think, really just depends on sort of what we are going through as a nation and I don't know that it all roads have to lead to conflict okay.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But I do think it's.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I mean, I do think that that at least that Chanukah texts just keeps coming back to me right, because I mean she's talking about sort of the different ways that we can.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: formulate a notion of of immigrant and and how it can look differently, and she has, of course, using an old popular things like wizard of Oz and shane and these other sort of moments even biblical stories about the immigrant, but I do think it is an important.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: thing to think about in that, why does it become negative and when it becomes negative, because I can imagine a place where or a time when it doesn't have to be that okay.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: terrific Thank you so much, so a question from Julie has now did you notice major differences in how black Americans talked about Latino immigrants and Asian American immigrants.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: not really because I was kind of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: At least talking and, more generally, about immigration and then I was also you know, asking people specifically about Latino people, because I think just I had a little bit of tunnel vision at that time just thinking about um where I was in terms of um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: With the work, but I did ask a question about um you know who people thought they had the most in common with and outside of um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of course, other black people, it was Latino first and then Asian second and I think the white people's last, and that was true and I think, in part, perhaps what were what I was picking up a lot of people saw those relationships is different.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: is because of this view of Asian people as perhaps why to Jason.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um and that you know, yes they're minority communities, but the way they experience their.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Racial life is very different than, say, the way that Latinos are black people do, and so there was some sense that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think Asians do better right, then other people and that wouldn't be too far off from what we know right.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: If you think about the sort of major areas like educational attainment incomes, etc.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of course, their nationality differences, so we know the API world is is complicated as well, but I think the general sense.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Is that um that Latinos were closer to blacks and that was the group that black people felt they have most affinity with and then Asians behind them and I think part of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Something that I picked up or something that came up again was sort of these notions about business ownership and you know who gets to have thing.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And I think there was a sensibility that perhaps Asians get more stuff and none of this is based in fact right, these are things that people hear me.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: There were more than one occasion where people were saying things about i'm a immigrants having access to capital to start businesses and this.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: common misconception that.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Immigrants don't pay taxes for a specified period of time and that's how they're able to sort of Marshal the resources to start businesses and do these things.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Now, of course I didn't you know disabuse anyone of these incorrect notions, but I was just more struck that that was a sentiment that people had that there was a belief.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That there's something else afoot, that is happening that it enables immigrants to do better than native born black folks and what happens in their mind is that there are these sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Institutional practices that help immigrants of all stripes but certainly if you're looking at sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Who people are living proximate to and who, people are finding themselves most in conversation with its Latino immigrants.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And that Asian seem to be doing okay right relative to these other communities, so I didn't see necessarily um.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Any more or less hostility, but certainly people did express an outward said that they that Asians were the most with the least like them.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Of the sort of non white categories, then lets you know people, and I think you know again bringing that back to the sort of contemporary present moment that we're in where we're seeing.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: A lot of conversation about anti Asian hate crimes right the.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: The the conversation again is about you know sort of how Asian people Asian communities are exceptional.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: And why perhaps they're being singled out for this kind of violence and some speculating and again, none of this I don't think is empirical right was speculating that because.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Asian people are viewed as perhaps easy targets because they are not necessarily seen in the same way as other minority communities that they are particularly rife for these kinds of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Acts of violence and abuse and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know I don't know I don't know right is the short answer, but when you look at the imperfect hate crimes data that does exist.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Most victims of hate crimes are still black it most perpetrators are still white, and this is not to diminish sort of what is happening to Asian people, but I think i'm.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: The conversation sort of lacks context and part of the reason that attacks context it's because we don't think through how different groups experience other ring differently.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Right so um I had the privilege of being on a panel on Tuesday with the API data source and they just put out data they just collected in the last month.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: We show that you know you know Asian Americans are certainly reporting more hate crimes, but they find that their black respondents to also reporting an uptick in those kinds of experiences.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: That the way that the Asian population that they spoke to we're experiencing dare exclusion was in the sense of people thinking of them as foreigners.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But they were not experiencing discrimination in sort of housing, the way that black and Pacific islander responders and even Latino respondents were.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: They were not viewed as criminal people did not view them as untrustworthy in the way that they'd be a black and Latino.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: responded, I mean certainly they had had fewer experiences being dissuaded from achieving higher educational outcomes in the way that i'm.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Pacific islanders and others in that in that data in that i'm sorry and that survey had, and so I think this just this points to um the need to sort of.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: sort of back away from sort of this unitary kind of talk about sort of minorities and get into the nitty gritty because all of these groups are experiencing.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: threat danger exclusion, but all very differently, and in my case at least i'm black seem to think of agents as having more than other minority communities, whether that was true or not, there was a sense that Asians were doing better and better off than black and Latino communities.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, thank you, so we just have a few minutes left so just a follow up from.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay i'm going to put together to follow ups, one relating to how indigenous Americans are viewed, and second, of perception of Middle Eastern immigrants, so if you could briefly respond, because we will need to wrap.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It is.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Written as Americans and then Middle Eastern immigrants.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: So I don't I didn't ask anything about those communities, to be quite frank, I would just say I don't really have a good read on that I would not want to hazard a guess.

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01:25:55.740 --> 01:26:08.700

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But in terms of Muslim immigrants, I think, I think that there could be some really interesting things there, in part because when you talk about Islam in the US, the face of Islam in the US is a black face right there are many.

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01:26:09.510 --> 01:26:18.780

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Black converts in this country and thinking about the work of natalie masa local and matt barreto just from maybe about.

478

01:26:19.470 --> 01:26:30.450

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: 10 years ago so we're looking at sort of Muslim folks and what they were picking up if i'm not mistaken, from some of the sites that they were looking at were a lot of black people.

479

01:26:30.810 --> 01:26:44.670

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: um I think many of whom were African American converts to Islam, so I don't have a good read on that, but I think that there could be some really interesting overlaps because of the prevalence of Islam and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: You know, some pretty prominent black folks who become Islam and I don't mean just sort of um you know strict Muslims, but a strict adherence of Islam, I also be even the nation of Islam right, I mean that I don't think a strict.

481

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Interpretation of the religion of Islam, nonetheless, I think the nation has been integral for people thinking about black people thinking about Islam as a viable religious religious tradition for them to follow, and when you look at.

482

01:27:21.540 --> 01:27:27.960

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: El Hajj Malik El shabazz aka Malcolm X right so to making that transition from the nation of Islam to.

483

01:27:29.010 --> 01:27:31.410

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Traditional Muslim practice, I think.

484

01:27:32.430 --> 01:27:40.410

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think you, you might find some really interesting things there, but I didn't and so and I did not look at indigenous communities, and that is one.

485

01:27:40.770 --> 01:27:52.800

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: area where I will say I fallen down, but I will say that might be a little complicated in a place like North Carolina because North Carolina has state recognized tribes and.

486

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Those state recognized tribes and black communities have very iffy relationships, in part because of the sense that those people who are state recognized members one are people who didn't necessarily want to be black anymore i'm not suggesting that's true.

487

01:28:12.270 --> 01:28:22.980

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: But I think that exists in some places in the State and that they get benefits and services that other black people that black people do not get and therefore.

488

01:28:23.580 --> 01:28:29.850

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: I think that could be a little complicated and may not give a full picture of how people think about sort of real.

489

01:28:30.750 --> 01:28:41.790

Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: indigenous people and i'm not trying to diminish anyone's identity, but I think that is a complicated story to tell in a place like North Carolina where you have lots of state recognized tribes, and it can.

490

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: It can get a little um the racial politics around that can be very, very hostile in very tense let's say half the let's say 10 okay.

491

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Well terrific so obviously we could continue forever, but our time is limited, so I want to thank Professor Carter for a great presentation and Professor Professor parents are very stimulating comment, thanks to our audience, we hope to see you here next week.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For a discussion of another very interesting book so by everyone, have a great weekend and hope to see you on next Friday and.

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Niambi Carter, "The Mecca", D.C. she/her/hers: Thank you have a good one, everyone, thank you for your comments, thank you for showing up.

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