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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Well hello everyone, and thanks for joining us today. My name is David Fitzgerald I co direct the Center for competitive immigration studies.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): There's obviously been a lot of talk this past week about immigration reform and today we're going to be looking at some historical lessons about that theme.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): We're going to be talking about the new book unwanted Italian and Jewish mobilization against restrictive immigration laws 1885 tonight. Sorry 1882 to 1965
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): From the University of North Carolina Press. We're honored to have with us. The author Marlena money naughty. She is associate professor of history at UC Davis Adolphus college and a leading scholar of US immigration policy making history.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Are discussing today is Roger waldinger. He is the director of the Center for the Study of international migration at UCLA, which is the co host of today's event as well as all of our online programming this academic year.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Please note that our next event is going to be next Friday. The second and our emerging scholars workshops. This time we'll be talking about the topic of asylum.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): You can find information about those events and all of our other events at the websites of both of our centers.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): The order of business today is we're first going to hear a 20 minute overview of the book by Professor mighty naughty will have a 10 minute comment from Professor waldinger
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): She'll give a brief response. And then we'll open it up to a Q AMP. A at anytime you're welcome to use the Q AMP a function at the bottom of your screen.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): To ask questions, make comments and I will collate and moderate that discussion following her response. So without further ado, welcome to California madalena, the floor is yours.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you, David. Thank you for having me. I'm going to share my screen because I have a short presentation that I prepared.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So thank you again for me and it's a pleasure to be here because it's all more or less a year that my book came out. So this is a particularly exciting to be able to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Be here and celebrating the first year on the anniversary, even though we're in the midst of epidemic. I hope you're all doing well.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I wanted to take a moment, very briefly to talk about the origin of this project and share why this event is dear me, near and dear to my heart, so
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The, the idea behind unwanted actually came during a workshop at UCLA where I had the pleasure of meeting both Roger and David. So these many years later. Thank you again. So at the time.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: We I remember we were discussing a lot of the presentations were about restriction along the border and a lot of people were talking about
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: rethinking of period ization of immigration history and a lot of people were talking about may nice book impossible subject. And so even though I'd actually if there are any
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: PhD students in in the audience, I'm sorry. I actually just defended my perspective I last with a completely different idea for my dissertation and then became
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: These books. So I noticed essentially that even though there was a very rich literature on restriction type die, getting a
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Chinese immigrants, for example, no one had really written about European immigrants. And so I decided to to look at that I wanted to know, what would we know something about their mobilization and again for the 1965 Immigration Act. No one, it looked at it.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Historically, so I wanted to know the day do something. What did they do. And I also was curious to learn whether or not they had worked with other
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Activists. Essentially, it turns out that they did, but it wasn't always easy. I was also curious to see if the immigrant experience had any connection to how the mobilized and so
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Before we go any further, I thought I would mention very briefly. So why did I choose Italian and Jewish immigrants in part because they were the primary target to have the immigration Quota Act, which is about to celebrate its 100th anniversary
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: In a few months.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And it's really because they were
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Seen as
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Beyond Chinese immigrants as the least desirable migrants in part because they were
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Coming to United States in large
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Numbers, but also because they were seen as radically different than immigrants from northern northern and southern Europe, but as you can see here
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Almost immediately, they were seen as
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Racially dubious morally in fear and almost impossible to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Integrate. But the other reason is because these two groups also had two very different immigrant experience right so Italians arrived originally in a small group in mostly
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Male to had a profound attachment to Italy they went back and forth. They delayed as much as as much. And as long as possible there naturalisation
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Jewish activists usually didn't have a strong connection to where they were coming from. And they tended to move in families and natural life as quickly as possible.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: at the organizational level. Are they there was also not a difference, even though I think it's safe to say that it was an uneasy alliance for
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Eastern European Jews, the fact that there was a really, a German Jewish cohort that was well established and we're connected. It turns out, made a big difference in terms of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Directly with them, so much so that by the 1920s, the immigration problem is all of a sudden, called the Jewish problem, precisely because there are so visible inactive Italians. On the other hand,
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Have to build any kind of a network and organization from scratch. And they also have to deal with the constant interference essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Of the Italian Government and so you have right one group, the Italian who is blamed before having a strong ties to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Their motherland, and not not realizing enough and you have another group that is criticized for naturalising too quickly and being a little bit too involved in the political sphere.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So my book is essentially divided into two
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Sections and they both we revolve around the role that war has in US history and immigration policy of the war, essentially, and World War One really becomes a pivotal moment, but in the first three chapters essentially I cover from
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The moment is immigrants arriving at two to slightly before the beginning of World War Two. And really, I look at three things, right. So what did these groups do to push back against immigration and you get a sense that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Once they finally realized that the world needs a target of restrictive immigration policy they created and we're going to decrypt the each create an organization to specifically fight for
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Immigration reform, but they also had to contend with how they had to decide. Right. How come to push for it. And this was happening at a time where
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The way legislation was happening was changing
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So you have the shift to committees, but you also have a sudden interest in immigration policy by, for example, seven politicians and so
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The first chapter, looks at, for example, how even though there was a strong commitment to doing something about these European immigrants, it's really not until World War one that a lot of legislators decide
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That they have to come to terms with restricting white European immigrants as well.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The second one really traces essentially the realization on the part of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Both groups that more restriction is coming. So one of the first argument which you here today as well. Right. It's like, what we have is restrictive enough. Why do we want to take it further.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But when they realize that more restriction is coming. Done. This is when they actually start trying things that looking for things that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Might be places to negotiate and there are two this emerging and they will solidify even more after World War two, which is from family reunion and
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Skills and then show up with three kind of looks at what happens once these laws have happened and I want to emphasize that unlike today. We're there's a
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The system and the bureaucracy are fairly set 100 years ago, their oldest restrictive measures laws, but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: It's never quite clear how that would be implementation is. And so, as I'll explain in a moment. Let me
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So I'm one is people don't
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I realized today that Prescott Hall looks a lot like a little bit like Steven Miller, sorry.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But so one emerges as a critical pivotal moment and to push free restriction against Europeans right and you get a sense here of the segregation and a large scale that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The Immigration Restriction league Prescott all believe, to really push for and they're really broad coalition to start emerging
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And so you have Western politicians, we've been fighting for Chinese restriction for decades, you have politicians from the East Coast, who have
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Been mobilizing for decades and are quite frustrated that not more is that fighting against these groups.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But then you also have certain politicians who all of a sudden, realize that immigration policy becomes a way for them to retain power and influence, even though they represent a rather have very few
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Immigrants
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So this is how you get done to 1924 which, according to john Hansen, one of the sponsors of the law is a second declaration of independence and so
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The tricky thing about both 21 and 24 Dakota. So the reporters essentially this 1924 Immigration Act.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: imposes a near ban on immigration from Asia and creates these quarters that heavily penalize immigrants. Immigrants from Eastern southern Europe and favor
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Immigrants from western and northern Europe, in the name of protecting the American race, so to speak, to severe can race.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Because much of these
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Laws are too difficult to implement in terms of personnel and because the infrastructure is already unfolding. One of the immediate consequences of enacting both the 1921 and 1924 X is actually
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Family separation. So there are people who get
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Turned turned away because all of a sudden the new law applies to them, but out of a moment of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Crisis emerges, a moment of opportunity because essentially both Jewish and Italian activist to realize that family reunion is really the only issue around which legislators will at least try to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Negotiate. Right. And so in the 1930s, despite the Great Depression. Because of this, this pressure
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Pressure on family reunion. The numbers of immigrants coming into the country slowly goes up. And most of that is actually happening through family reunion, but they also have to be pragmatic. So one of the things that I tried to do in this book is how is to show how even
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Group that are fighting for better, more humane immigration reform some sometimes participate and in making this system harsher for other groups. And so one of the things that pretty soon, is to group to realize that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: While they can fight and move the needle when it comes to family reunion. They have to give up another one of the original goals which was to push for
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: An immigration policies that actually accepted quote unquote unskilled immigrants, because they quickly realized that that is just an issue that legislators are not interested in
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So if one was the moment we're restriction happened and allowed for new pollinating but also quantitative restriction were were to has the opposite effect and it opens possibilities essentially to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Negotiate, and perhaps make
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: At least some effort to reform.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: A racist and draconian immigration system in place. And this is where you see a divide between as you can see in the
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: From the quote between Americans who still strongly believe that the United States has to be isolation is then restriction list and politicians even restriction is one who understand that immigration policy has
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Foreign policy implications that now that the role the US has changed need to take into account even someone
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: As problematic as McCarran pastor McLaren Walter act in 1952 he understood this some reform had to happen in order to keep some of these alliances going. And so we're we're to becomes a time where these groups can fight for more legislation first for refugees, but also for
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: An expansion of these family reunion provisions and so this is essentially what I cover in the second half of the book. What's interesting about what happens in
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: 52 is that it's really the first time that Italians and Jews come together. They've been quite skeptical of any collaboration, you have Jewish activists constantly
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Pushing for collaboration, but Italians are very pragmatically only ally with other groups when it affects Italian immigration.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But in 52 you have a much broader coalition, which is a very racially, ethnically religiously socially diverse and it seems
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That there's an opportunity for I'm sure that the sociologist in the room. I hate this term for an overall of immigration policy, but because
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Of the climate, but also the power of some of the politicians that controlled
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The Senate like McCarron McKenna had an incredible power he managed to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: reaffirm the quota system.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And even by eliminating the original requirements of the law is still only assigned a quarter of 100 most Asian countries, but McCarran also successfully essentially played up the ideological divisions across these groups.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And so the 50s become go from a moment of they start off with the victories hole and they and with a lot of frustration and disappointment, but also a shift essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Before 1965 52 is really the last time where these activists propose wholesale elimination of the quota system after losing essentially realized that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: A piecemeal approach is better than fighting for big systemic reform and it's it's in the piecemeal approach that you start seeing some of the
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Inequality that Dan will be a legacy of well passed after 1965 so these small challenges, for example, will allow
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: More immigrants to come in, effectively le undermining what McCarran was trying to do, but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: These changes also overwhelmingly favorite immigrants with skills and family reunification, right. So these laws essentially immigration laws becomes become tools of social engineering. Right. And this is happening at a time when there is a director ization of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Immigrants of color when the composition of immigration is changing and
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Most of them are coming from outside of Europe, and then you have
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: 1965 which is right.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: usually presented in in the literature has a triumph for the group's I studied, but by looking at the sources, actually, you can see that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They were much more ambivalent about the final product that we're also not as involved as perhaps they hoped. So on one hand the passage of 1965 shows the success of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Doing is massive.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: educational campaigns to get Americans on board with immigration reform doing this massive initiative to keep immigration reform at the forefront, both in American society and in Congress, but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They're also completely shut out of the negotiation process and because LBJ himself was quite ambivalent about taking on
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Immigration reform, then you have a system that on one end eliminated the national origin quota system, but still had quarters and it also for the first time, extended quarters to the Western Hemisphere, creating on my hand. This is it was much more diversity to ever been, but also creating
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: One of the other problem or issue that we constantly talk about when it comes to immigration today, which is a spike in
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Illegal immigration.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I think I'm all out of time. Hopefully that was exactly 20 minutes I lost track of time. So I apologize.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): No, no apologies needed. You are exactly on time. Thank you for your discipline and Roger
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Terrific, thank you so much. Thanks milena for that terrific presentation, I'm delighted to be able to comment on this book, I do very vividly.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Recall that earlier encounter with Madeline and now many years ago. And of course, I've also followed her scholarship very closely. So was delighted
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: When I received an announcement about a year ago that the book had
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Appeared. So let me begin within one week of taking office, Donald Trump made good on his promise to implement the total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It should almost four years ago this week comps executive office or order immediately prohibited the entry of immigrant and non immigrant citizens from seven predominantly Muslim countries for 90 days.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It barred all refugee resettlement for 100 days and indefinitely barred the arrival of Syrian refugees.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now protest immediately ensued immigrants rights organizations and their allies rallied at airports and attorneys offered pro bono services to detain the rivals.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Simultaneously, more than 1000 Yemeni store owners in New York struck and solidarity shutting their stores for a day and marching and protesting against Trump's order.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: January 27 2017 was the beginning of a dark era in American history and politics within assault and immigrants that continued on ending Lee, up until Trump's very last ever so shameful day
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: They'll face with the government to determine to use every weapon in it's extraordinarily powerful Arsenal immigrants and immigrant rights advocates never stopped fighting back.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Though the struggle was uneven the government's cruelty and overreach had a boomerang effect yielding a public more sympathetic to immigrants and immigrant rights.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Then it had been when we entered the reign of Donald a terrible four long years ago.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: madalena marinara is fascinating beautifully written and superbly research books takes us back to another era in American history one certainly longer
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Possibly more horrible and certainly no less horrible than the one we have just experienced. But what strikes me in reading this history.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Is the devastating solitude of the Italian and Jewish immigrants and the descendants at that moment when America concluded that these immigrants and others like them.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Were so undesirable that they're kind should no longer be admitted to the United States, to be sure, allies were not totally absent from the scene.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Up through the immediate aftermath of World War one business did see some continuing usefulness in continued access to European immigrant labor.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But business then lost interest as did the majority of progressive intellectuals.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For home restriction offered the promise of accelerated Americanization and thus, aside from the occasional civil civil libertarian or social reformer, such as Frances Perkins, who did all she could for refugee admissions during
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The Roosevelt era, the Italians and Jews were left to fend for their own when disaster struck at a date when desperate refugees sought to leave Europe.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Or when news of the Holocaust reach the United States, there were precious few immigrant rights advocates who clamored that asylum be found.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Things were barely better in the aftermath of disaster to be sure Jewish leaders did succeed in organizing a front group of non Jewish notables to lobby.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In favor of it, meaning some portion of the roughly 250,000 Central European and polish refugees who had survived the Holocaust.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But with Jews barely comprising 16% of the refugees admitted under the displaced persons act a quantity overshadowed by the number of Germans entering the US at the same time.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: This harvest can only be judged as bitter fruit in retrospect, is there also anything more pathetic than the spectacle of American citizens on willing to put themselves front and center.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For fear of engendering precisely the type of reaction imagined in Philip Roth counterfactual novel The plot against America.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And if the United States did grudgingly open its doors to the survivors of the Holocaust. It was far slower in responding to the plight of Italians.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: With few options in a country devastated by two years of intense warfare until lobbying efforts in the mid 1950s finally yielded results.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In the years remaining before passage of the heart seller act Italians and Jews did succeed in assembling a large more diverse coalition
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You don't feel good luck finally favor the reformers in 1965 and madalena decisively demonstrates that passage of a hard sell or act could easily have gone the other way.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The immigration advocates mainly undertook the labor of an elephant only to repeatedly give birth to a mouse.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now madalena seeds, the history of these two groups as providing a window into their experiences of inclusion and exclusion.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And doing so she shifts the angle of vision from the internal to the external providing a way of seeing that conventional approaches with the back of the border inevitably ignore
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For example, in the refer to compare the boundary separating blacks Mexicans and southern and eastern Europeans.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Sanibel Fox and Thomas Guglielmo conclude that there was essentially no boundary between whites, on the one hand and southern and eastern Europeans, on the other, the right quote
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Whatever White was a meaningful category of was wherever White was a meaningful category. These immigrants entered the sentence. We're almost always included women and
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now that conclusion might be justified if we assume that the conditions that matter to Italians Jews and other southern and eastern European immigrants were entirely contained within the borders of the United States.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But if migration scholarship has taught us anything, it is that immigration pulls networks of peoples and communities across state borders.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The selectivity of migration inevitably creates internationalized families as those most likely to
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To move and benefit from leaving do. So first, putting down roots and gaining resources that allow other family members often, the more vulnerable to follow suit.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Given the immense wave of immigration, the surface during the brief window between World War ones end and the imposition of restriction in 1921
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: There was every reason to think that family reunification would have impelled countless others to head for the United States had doors remained open
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Indeed, the fact that as early as 1931 waiting lists for the immigrants seeking admission to the United States extended far beyond the backlogs experienced by Mexican
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: On Filipino brothers and sisters of US citizens today and currently judged intolerable suggest how intense was the demand for family reunification on both sides of the Atlantic.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Decades later, those family ties had still not been sunder as early 1961 madalena tells us there were over 171,000 pending family reunion applications of which 80% were from a town.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now first and second generation Jews and Italians of the times when neither disconnected from the compatriots nor in different to their fit.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: migration to the US may have largely stopped in 1924 but not travel with return visits a regularity until the onset of the depression.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The vast foreign language pressing acutely and keenly covered homeland events.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And now, huge literature has a reason to analyze contemporary immigrant hometown associations and the impact of their activities on the communities left behind.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But in historical comparison, the cross border efforts of today, pale in light of the efforts made during the period with which Madeline is concerned.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Between 1919 and 1924 alone. The American Jewish joint distribution committee raised over a billion dollars measured in today's currency.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For relief projects in Eastern Europe. By contrast, collective remittances to Mexico total roughly 80 million
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Individual hometown associations, bringing together still recently arrived immigrants supplemented these efforts Jewish hometown associations sent over 500 representatives.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: to Eastern Europe in the early 1920s to distribute relief funds and later, despite the strains caused by the Great Depression.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The subsequent rise of Nazi ism and the intensification of anti Semitism in Poland led to a subsequent burst of activity with significant flush the flows of relief again heading back to Europe.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now the conventional analysis, it seems to me complacently assumes that the southern and eastern European immigrants and the descendants gain the bedrock of acceptance.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But the immigrants themselves so differently as David Fitzgerald and David Cook Martin have argued in their book calling the masses.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Restriction for countries of emigration restriction on the basis of national origins it till the experience of national humiliation.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Yet for deeper, it seems to me was the humiliation of the immigrants against some of those restrictions were directed as model. Enter correctly notes and now I quote
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The descendants of Southern and Eastern European immigrants believe that retaining the quota system unchanged reaffirmed their inferiority.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: undermine their status in US society and denied the progress that they've made.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And yet to grasp the full import of restriction and the exceptional degree of coercion that entailed.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One has to go beyond the ambit of the domestic arena and here I believe lies, one of the few shortcomings of model in his book.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The book is quite, I think in a core tension on the one hand it's concern is with policies that are inherently international
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: On the other hand, the focus is on the mobilization of domestic groups engage in interest group politics and yet precisely for that reason, the global context falls out of you.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Know the bulk of the scholarship using advent of restriction in mid 1920s with a certain degree of complacency. The assumption is that the pre existing world of mass migration was inherently coming to an end.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But reality is actually quite different.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: When the US closed its gates, Europe was in the midst of a severe refugee crisis and the aftermath of World War One roughly 10 million Europeans were homeless, having been forced to flee by war revolution and ethnic cleansing.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: When the dust settled there were more than a million refugees bubbled up in Europe, the single largest fraction of whom had fled the Russian Revolution and ensuing civil war.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: A conflict that the US itself had intensified with both troops and funds and supportive the counter revolution.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Were it not for restriction. A significant portion of those refugees would undoubtedly have crossed the Atlantic.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now contrary to the conventional wisdom labor migration didn't suddenly disappear with the closure of US stores while Italian emigration airbed
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: After dizziness recorded at the turn of the 20th century, the decline nonetheless took it to levels that remain high by anyone normal ranking.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In the roughly 30 years between the onset of the First World War and the end of the second almost 4 million immigrants left Italy, making for an emigration rate of 3.7 per thousand. Which is what is recorded.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Today, by Somalia and well above the rate for countries such as the Dominican Republic Armenia or hating all considered conventionally high immigration states.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In Eastern Europe, choose also left when they could. Historians estimate that several hundred thousand Jews left Eastern Europe.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: With significant growth of Jewish communities throughout Latin America and South Africa as well as distant Manchuria.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Of course, the pressure to flee intensified with the Nazi seizure of power, the refugee crisis which model in it ably sketches, as she notes.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The pressures against expanded refugee admissions were intense an anti semitic public State Department officials intent on using every measure possible to keep numbers.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To to block immigrant admissions and legislators far more eager to push immigrant numbers down rather than up awareness of which bread, a great deal of hesitancy among Jewish immigration advocates.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: madalena points out that admissions did gradually grow up from 1000 to 20 1933 to almost 30,000 in 1939 in 1942. The only years when the German quarters were large and felt
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But nonetheless, global perspective shows how successful in the US kept itself beyond reach
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Between 1933 and 1941 almost half a million Jews escape the greatest German right with us, providing a haven to roughly a fifth
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Latin America, which historically and been a minor destination for Jewish immigration took in almost as many Jewish refugees as United States.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And will calculated as a ratio of refugees admitted per thousand. Then the population, the US record of point seven per thousand.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Appears particularly appalling as opposed to over three per thousand for Argentina, which admitted 45,000 Jews are almost as many as a half the total the US total or 1.1 for the UK within inflow of 52,000
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Known as opposed to World War Two record look better when examined and global perspective, as we heard from David NASA two weeks ago.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The resistance to refugee resettlement in Congress and among the general public was not only intense but once it was overcome.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It allowed for the entry of people who were largely impelled by economic motives not persecution and among home, the survivors of the Holocaust were relatively poorly represented
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Even show the US, which had a thriving economy did barely better than badly bet battered Britain within the economy on life support.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The bridge resettled 1.8 refugees per thousand as opposed to the US 2.1 per thousand and go, Canada, Australia, we're both and pound they perceived need for come for people
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: These countries experience with Canada admitting it refugees per thousand in Australia admitting 24,000 demonstrates how the grudgingly, the US Open refugee doors.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And the Italian case emigration began almost immediately after hostilities ended seeing emigration as an essential to recovery from wartime devastation.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Italian government sign guesswork or agreements, whenever the opportunity arrived.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now, just with a post war migration should be considered as an economic or refugee migration is a matter of nuance.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Italians departing last colonies as well as those who suffered ethnic cleansing and Eastern Europe descended on the peninsula, which also wanted under with extensive wartime induced internal migration.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: From the standpoint of the Western powers. However, the refugee problem was located in Germany, not Italy, which is why Italians were virtually excluded from the first wave of refugee resettlement
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now, regardless of the motivations that lead people to depart the post war period, again, so sizable immigration 7 million people left Italy between 1945 and 1975
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For an Annual. Annual emigration rate of 4.9 4000 which is exactly comparable to El Salvador today. Now some of those emigrants did make it to the United States.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: in part thanks to mid 1950s legislation that use the refugee label to legitimize the entry of persons who were possibly displaced, but surely not facing persecution and various other workarounds that diminish the bite of restriction
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The US as madalena notes while the quarter system lived on until the mid 1960s. It did so with diminishing effectiveness as indicated by the arrival of almost 200,000 Italian immigrants way above what quarters would have allowed
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Yet when the American experience is evaluated in light of the overall global flows, what strikes me is a severity of the constraints of those 7 million posts were Italian immigrants fewer than 10% ever managed to make it on to us.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Now, Madeline is book also offers us the opportunity to reassess the opposition's between quote now and, quote, then, of which so many migration scholars, though perhaps less so among historians and sociologists anthropologists political scientists are so found
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: her cell phone now 1965 supposedly inaugurated a new era of immigration and yet as madalena very correctly points out,
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Immigration immediately resolved after World War Two, despite all the barriers, put in place by restriction is legislation.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Immigration then followed a steady upward climb doing so at a pace that didn't change after 1965 so was there ever really a quote new immigration as so many of us YOURS TRULY INCLUDED having chest
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Similarly, the vast liquid show and transfer nationalism began with a claim that the late 20th century witnessed an unprecedented shift and immigrants connection with our homeland.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But it's model name a demonstration Italians and Jews were consistently concerned with the fate of their campaign which abroad.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In important sub thing of the book one, which we haven't had time to discuss madalena shows the ways in which the Italian state. So to influence both the US policy.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Involving migration and Italian Americans and doing so in ways that clearly foreshadowed the diaspora policies that have emerged in recent years.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Likewise, many of us have rightfully railed against rising tide of nativism and it's terribly noxious impact over the past four years.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But as I suggested in my opening remarks look backwards can provide us with significant cause for comfort.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Know, small fraction of Americans today or Zena phobic but in relative terms far fewer and with and with less virulence then was the case during the years on which model. Enter focuses
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And now, unlike then there was a Xena file for every scene of fault, which is why the new administration has just announced an immigration policy massively more far reaching than any measure contemplated during the period that model in a discusses
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But it does seem to me that there is one. Now then difference that clearly emerges from model in his book or buy it with a dividing line appearing not 1965 but a century.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Ago and it was then at that moment that we definitively passed from a world of relatively open borders to world governed by a new 11th commandment.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: which reads, Thou shalt not cross state boundaries without authorization
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Alas that 11th commandment rules in the world in which the gains to migration always great or significantly larger than they were a century. Go and hence
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Despite the good feeling enchanted by Wednesday is changing administration, we need to be ready for troubled times.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: As the clash between states efforts to control borders and migrants efforts to cross borders.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Simply in order to better their lives will make for continuing conflict and controversy and as we think about the conflict and controversy about to come. Madeline his book will continue to generate
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Like that will allow us to understand the events that are about to hit us. Thank you very much.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Thank you, Roger mother, Linda, would you like to take say three or five minutes to respond. All of Rogers comments.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That's how about three minutes and I will first of all thank you I'm
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I cannot have talked about my book better than India. And so this is amazing. But I also learned many things that stood out Roger identified, I think.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The biggest weakness of my book I wanted to see when someone asked me whether I wrote the book that I wanted. And my biggest regret is not to place this
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Story in a more transnational global global view that lens was much more there when it was a dissertation, but new transition to a book so that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Diminish impact because I thought that it was important to pay attention to some of the dynamics in Congress in and I was really in doing that. I was trying to understand
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The disconnect between how
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: You were American activist essentially represented in some of the literature and the constraints and the pressures, they
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: personally felt right. So it's a matter of how we see what was happening and how they felt their role in
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: As Roger said in a very hostile and I immigrant and Zena phobic society, essentially.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So I totally understand that criticism and I did my best to keep it in there. But clearly, once you have a global perspective, the story of daring states becomes even more problematic. During this period, especially for a country that continues to present itself as a nation of immigrants.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I also wanted to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Note that what I found particularly striking and again it goes against someone assumption about the activism of this group is that I'm Jewish activists, for example, continue to fight for immigration reform and even though they knew
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: After you know the 50s and 60 the day the the reforms that they were fighting for one necessarily and benefiting
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The group, I would Jewish immigrants, especially those behind the Iron Curtain. Right. And I think if you keep that in mind and their efforts also
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Gain a different meaning. I also wanted to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That's where when I wish I were sociology to go through all the numbers. Roger. Because if they're striking. I think one of the things that I tried to show that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Is that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The scale of the opposition right was much larger than today, even though it feels worse today because we're living through it. But one other thing that I wish I had developed more and Roger comment reminded me of is the label, then the name that we have when we
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That we apply to people who move right were refugees all the all the refugees strictly identify themselves as refugees are migrants people who moves exclusively for economic reasons. And so I
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I really appreciate it rather discussion when it came to that because I think it's, it behooves us to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Question, some of the terminology, like, one of the things that stood out to me is
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: How these groups were thinking about I'm
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Skilled versus unskilled right because even the at the time, we're making an argument and we here fairly regularly today is like
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: An unskilled is a it is a way of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Diminishing with immigrants are able to do. I always tell my students, if you put me in a field. I don't know what to do or right and so why are we
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Using these labels.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And then, yes, I wanted to echo that, would I find interesting that even during this period of so called the golden era of restriction that a lot of restriction is going to go back to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: labor migration continue to be practically never stopped. And in fact, in a way, precisely because immigration from Eastern southern Europe was diminished in mentor.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: American employers looked elsewhere, right, especially within the Americans. Anyway, I'll stop by that because I know I could see that we have a few questions. And I want to give everyone an opportunity to ask them.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Yes. So we've had up to 90 people on the call. There's a lot of interest in your work.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): And you're welcome to type your question into the Q AMP. A, or if you use the hand raising function, we will just admit you into the room to ask directly. So our first question comes from Irene bloom read from Berkeley sociology.
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Irene Bloemraad: I wasn't expecting to be let into the room. So sorry.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Hi.
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Irene Bloemraad: That was, that was unanticipated but it's nice to see you in person. Um, so, my question was about how to understand the politics and advocacy of this time you use the word activist frequently and
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Irene Bloemraad: I personally am delighted to know more about this period because I totally agree with you that it's been understudied, especially in terms of the politics on immigration restriction
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Irene Bloemraad: But I'm interested in knowing whether you what distinction you might see if any, between understanding political activism as social movement activism.
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Irene Bloemraad: Or sort of more elite lead political lobbying
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Irene Bloemraad: And when I think about the present day, sort of, echoing Rogers comments, you know, the social movement activism. The protests in the street. Those things have been really important for the dreamers, or even back in 2006 with the millions of people in the streets.
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Irene Bloemraad: And my senses. I've only gotten a third through your book. But my sense is that
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Irene Bloemraad: It's a little bit maybe what people would call standard ethnic politics or sort of behind the scenes lobbying and I don't know if there's more of a public dimension to it. And I'd love to hear you talk about that. Thank you.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you for the question. Yeah. So it's, it's a, there's a bit of attention. So I would say that it starts off industries with protests.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And massive letter writing campaigns, but by the beginning of the 20th century, both groups decider.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: It's, I think it's also a matter of respectability right they think that they have to have a form organization that represents them in Congress, but that until the 50s, that will always be a huge source of tension because
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: These
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Elite men and their own within Domi men essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: End up being far more moderate than the grassroots would want them to be. And they say that it's because of the
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Legislative political constraints. Right. It's the system, but it's also the people that you're dealing with. And it's really not until the 50s that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: These kind of elite group realized that that there is actually a way to use that energy right that frustration. And so one of the Italian family organize an organization and they
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: In the 1950s, and the first thing they do is that they go into the local communities and say,
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Right to your representative something that they had done at the end of the 19th century, but almost completely disappears and it doesn't emerge again until the 1950s and I think they feel more comfortable with it because that's becoming
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The norm to fight for change across the United States. So civil rights activists are doing. We've been terrific actress doing that.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But even then,
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They don't necessarily agree on the end goal, right, especially the younger the activist and more frustrated. They are the old generation that believes that you have to do everything.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Behind closed door and you have to use diplomacy is like, no, we should take the street and wishes. So the term that I talked about in the 50s from going to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Let's take down the quota system to let's work piecemeal ends up being a huge disappointment for activists, then it's they see that as a defeat essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I hope that answers that question.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for being here.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Philip puffer
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Philip Hofer: I'm sorry I I asked the question, what were the particular groups and I was particularly interested in the I Italians who did they coalesce around or what did they coalesce around in terms of their activism, please.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you. I'm so i'm jewish activists essentially coalesce around the American Jewish Committee, they become in terms of political lobbying at the forefront of his efforts for Italian the story's a little bit more complicated, in part because especially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: In the first 30 years of the 20th century, they can't agree on a common identity. So the main organization is Josiah the order sons of Italy in America today. They're called the order sons and daughters of Italy in America.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: In a way that organization is not as effective because they try to do so. The American Jewish Committee is very much focused on lobbying for policy change.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Or cya things that it needs to create a common identity in is to lobby for policy changes and it needs to create image to focus on presenting a positive image every time so it's stretched really thin
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And it's not until 1952 in part because of the Catholic Church that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: These elite Italian Americans create yet another organization. It's called AC. I am American comedian Italian migration.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Which really becomes the dial equivalent of American Jewish Committee, so they focus exclusively on immigration and they're essentially lobbying arm and he also worked on a resettlement but they kind of outsource that to other Catholic organizations that can help with that.
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Philip Hofer: Thank you. Thank you.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Then let me just summarize a couple of questions. One from Mary Conte and one from Perry bloom about why
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Italian and Jewish immigrants weren't wanted in the first place.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): They listen specific reasons. And one of the issues that are like it addresses the extent to which the science of eugenics and Social Darwinism affected those early efforts that restriction from the 1890s, up to the quarter x
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Yeah, so they actually play a big role. Essentially, right. So, they, they, there is a very much a race talk, right. These people will dilute the, the American race. There also because they're have an inferior stock.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They will be harder to assimilate Americanize
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And because they don't come from a democratic tradition, the, the risk endangering
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The American Republic, but I have to say that among
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: There were two arguments that delta restriction is succeed.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: One is the systematically by the beginning of the 20th century, the system is systematically start making comparisons between Italians, Italian, Jewish immigrants and it especially Chinese immigrants are dying, for example, or we're often called the Chinese of Europe and
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Jewish immigrants were often crew with having an oriental features.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And then I never forgot the other one.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And then
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The other piece that helped. It's not by chance that the first truly restrictive measured and they successfully adopted against the needs to group is a literacy tests.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And the idea came from using your literacy tests in yourself, essentially against the African Americans. And so there is an effort to equip these groups to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Other immigrants of colors right but also domestic minorities, people of color and so that it
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Social Darwinism. A eugenics are all part of these conversations, but it's really this this
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: To idea ideas that you can see determine is shift among a lot of legislators who until the 1910s felt really uncomfortable with specifically restricting European immigrants.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Thanks. We have a question from richer this fund. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing your name.
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Rucha Deshpande: No worries. That was really close. Thank you so much Dr Maurice sorry for your talk. I'm actually an undergraduate student in Professor welding this class. And so I'm going to read the introduction of your book, but
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Rucha Deshpande: I was just curious to hear more about what the transition period was like in the United States post World War Two regarding immigration policy reform.
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Rucha Deshpande: Did the government take any measures to change public perceptions of immigrant communities or were changes, mostly made on purely a policy level.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you for that. Great question. Um, so did the government make an effort, yes and no. So one of the things that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The government realizes after world war two is that once you promise to bring more people, someone has to move these people. Right. And so one of the things that Truman did essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: It ended into a partnership with a local organization to move and assist
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Incoming displaced persons incoming immigrants and incoming refugees and so it's actually these organizations that then launch
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Quote unquote education campaigns. And if you look at some of the newsletters that they published it. There is a very clear narrative. They're always that families.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They always have under you know the magically get off the boat and they look stunning it radio, they look rested in a look well dress. This will clearly some of this was staged. And so the government didn't actively participate in that impact because
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So much of this much of this policy comes from Democrats but delegates are actually quite divided. So the, the person I mentioned earlier, I'm McCarran he absolutely hated the United States past the refugee displaced persons act right any credit and he
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Criticized especially Jewish activist for making that happen. And that's why you talk. It takes kind of a revenge in 1952 when he says I will pass a law that will reinforce the quota system and mark your is undesirable. One more time. Right.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So, but that's an important moment. So the government is not very active. The only piece that they're a bit more engaged in is to justify how
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They went from like a complete ban on Asian immigration to having these teeny tiny quarters and eliminating the original requirement. Right. And they do they frame that exclusively not cold work terms, essentially, I hope that answered the question.
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Rucha Deshpande: That did guess. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): So getting back to the question of what were the origins of these kinds of discrimination. We have a question from Professor David Abraham, given the supposedly proclivity
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Jewish and Italian immigrants to engage in leftist politics and union activism. How close was the tie between restriction ism and anti labor mobilization.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Well, it was definitely there but I mean like so and labor unions in particular are organized these massive labor writing campaigns targeting these
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: leftist immigrants are essentially
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And it's, it's actually immigration is actually did I mentioned in the beginning that intentionally course these different groups in order to create a nationwide coalition of people that can collectively push for immigration restriction. And so they
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They target politicians in the West, right, the target politicians in the South, but outside the chambers of Congress date particularly court.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Labor activist essentially labor labor unions and it's that alliance that I think makes a lot of the
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: stereotypes and criticism against these two groups really mainstream because a lot of the lot of the letters and they sent to
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: It was clearly a very coordinated Africa's, a lot of the letters and Jason So this legislators have
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They're practically are using the same language, right, and not just stealing jobs, but they're also bringing
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Some first of ideology into the country.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Okay. A quick empirical question from Doug kabocha did the looming quota laws not produce an upward bump in Italian naturalization only a US passport could have allowed them to continue their transnational visits and circulations
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Yes. So one of the unintended consequences which I think the legislative did not anticipate is that the more restrictions were passed the more Italians naturalized and tried to bring
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Family members over but that then ran into
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Problems once Mussolini get to power, and he changed his approach to his policy right. First, he was in favor of immigration and done.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: He wasn't and in this case it mattered whether the person with the passport was a man or a woman. So it was women were often denied.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: By the Italian Government, the possibility of reuniting with their family, but in. Yes. One of the unintended consequences of restrictions that much many more Italians became US citizens and ended up sending for their families. Hi, Donna. Thank you for being here.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Okay, we have a couple of questions from Victor
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Victor Benickes: Okay, what I would like to know what one question was I had heard that one third of the immigrants between the 1890s and the early 1920s actually returned home or to other countries.
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Victor Benickes: Have you looked into that.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: So Italians had the highest return migration rate, essentially, more than half returned
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: To Italy, essentially, or migrated elsewhere that percentage. Up until recently, we thought that essentially no Jewish immigrants had returned, but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Not that was not the case. There is some estimated about between three and 7% of Jewish immigrants left as well, in part because of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The climate that we're living in, in the United States and that I guess that means alignment between the expectations of being part of your society and the reality that they met honestly arrived.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): And Victor, you had a second question.
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Victor Benickes: Yeah. In the late 1930s early 40s had a very anti semitic State Department. People like breakfast breakfast breakfast long, what was the impact
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The most immediate impact. I think Roger mentioned in in his
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Remarks as well, was that for most of the 1930s, the German quota went unfilled
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Right. And that was not by chance. Right. So despite the fact that there were a lot of German user would have liked it to leave Germany because of the anti Semitism of a lot of officers in the State Department. These people were not granted.
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visas for example.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And so there's also a lot of
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: No evidence, but apparently the state department also issue the
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: memos that said to essentially raised the bar when it came to certain applicants, which is particularly striking because again, Germany had the highest
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: coda yearly quota and despite that, it went unfilled for most of the decade and the, the answer to why that was his only you get it only if you look at what was going on in the State Department and the anti Semitism essentially have a lot of these officers who simply not
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Grant these waters essentially
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Okay, next. There's a question from Federico through
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Federico Trudu: Yes, hello. Medina, congrats. Anybody liberal sending trained on key.
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Federico Trudu: So you're right about the many Italians who moved to the United States and then returned back to their home country in consciousness to Jews.
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Federico Trudu: Do you think that that discrimination that they faced in the US in the first decade of the 20th century, both does your and the facto
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Federico Trudu: left a legacy on the anti immigration stands share by Italians today. So I mean, shouldn't Italians as a nation of immigrants have a historical sense of duty towards the people who are crossing the Mediterranean Sea today.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Yes.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Um, you know, I think it
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Italians have a really interesting relationship with this this history of migration right there was even a book that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Says, one day, you're gonna do one more annoying right when we were in your opinion, right, trying to get attention to that history, but it. I think this is a case of big historical amnesia.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Where Italians essentially don't recognize that
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They're doing
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: And saying things are very similar to the experiences that Italian migrants had a century ago, essentially.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: It seems that there was some movement for change.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thanks to some scholars in the United States, for example, Italians are finally paying attention to Italians of color, which you haven't really been seen discussed
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The way that they are right now. There's also a push to change says this ship laws because you have so many people who were born here that I'm in Italy, sorry, we can't get citizenship until their direct team. So I think there is some movement, but I don't think that it sounds fully recognize
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: This history, essentially.
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Federico Trudu: Okay, thank you very much. That's it. That's
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): All right, or final question goes to Jesse Garcia.
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Jesse Garskof: I mother, Linda, thanks for this wonderful presentation. And the great work.
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Jesse Garskof: Have a question that sort of goes back to the question that Roger raised about the relationship to whiteness of these groups and and i also thinking about
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Jesse Garskof: Lily Garland's critique of Jewish activism as being some ways as divorcing the question of their own Mike or their own groups migration from the other groups that are around
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Jesse Garskof: So I was wondering, given that there are actually other groups that were targeted in the same period. So you know obviously Chinese
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Jesse Garskof: Exclusion ended visibility citizenship, but also the really profound impact on black West Indian migration 24 restrictions.
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Jesse Garskof: And and then of course the the box condition in 1929 trying to extend restriction to Mexicans. I'm wondering whether Jewish and Italian advocates in this period were aware of those impacts in effect on whether they were interested in them or, or, you know, or not.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That's an excellent question and one that I went into the archives with honestly. Um, so I can tell you that both groups.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Had were very, very interested in what Chinese activists were doing it. So, for example, do is this memo at the end of the 19th century that says we should really be doing, but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: We should, we should have a Chinese approach to the courts. Right. And so they go to court. Why are we doing the same especially when it came to labor rights.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: But they quickly realized that that's not effective. Right. Again, a lot of members of the American Jewish Committee, they were lawyers and they actually fought against Chinese Exclusion, because they're worried about
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: The ramifications of, you know, excluding a group specifically for ritual purposes so
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Interesting me while they were paying attention interested in. We're interested in into were
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: sympathizing with what was going on with Asian immigrants. So this is 1910 1920s. Right.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They were not as
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Understanding of what was going on. Many came to migration in North America, for example. So the same. It's really fascinating because the same lawyers who went to court to challenge Chinese Exclusion.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Also wrote letters this, how can you put us on par with Mexican immigrants.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Right. So I think there's a whole other books that needs to be written about that. So it's and and you know I really tried to say, how did they, how did they rationalize this things right but
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I was never able to find that much evidence, but it is something that I try intense for me to bring into the book, although it's not fully developed. But clearly, these are aspects.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: They're trying to navigate your own identity by comparing and contrasting themselves to the other groups and
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I know that some of them.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: were frustrated when they cross the borders right there were some sometimes I'm mistaken for Mexican migrants and I wonder if that has to do something with it but I
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: That is the extent that those would I know I wouldn't, I wouldn't feel comfortable say more about that. But I did the discrepancy between how the regarding these two groups is really fascinating.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you, Jesse.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): And thank you well enough and Roger for for sharing your expertise. It's an extremely rich texts. We look forward to hosting you back. When you have finished your, your next book project, but to put any pressure on you, but we know it's coming soon.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Also coming soon next Friday at noon Pacific, we will be continuing our series of Emerging Scholar workshops we have scholars based in Australia, Peru and United States. We're going to be discussing various aspects of asylum.
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): You can get the information about the that workshop, as well as the registration in order to be able to access the papers and read them in advance. It's a discussion based
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David FitzGerald (UCSD): Workshop rather than the long presentations by the authors. So we very much hope to see you again next Friday and have a good weekend. Everyone
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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Maddalena Marinari, Gustavus: I