Outsiders at Home: The Politics of American Islamophobia

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay Hello everybody I am Roger waldinger i'm professor of sociology director of the Center for the study of international migration, and I am delighted to welcome you to today's event, this is a.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Book talk that we are co sponsoring with our friends and colleagues at the Center for comparative immigration studies at.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: uc San Diego part of our year long series with meetings that occur every Friday at this time in winter quarter, as some of you may know, we have been alternating between book talks and the.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Emerging scholars workshops and the last such workshop.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: will take place next Friday and it will focus on immigration and the law, with three papers by daisy del rey y'all Jane Lopez and carrie rosenbaum and a comment by Jennifer ish icon of the UCLA school of law so today, I am delighted to.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To segue to the book talk and we are delighted to have no sita ledger vardy from political science from Michigan state who will talk about her new.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Book outsiders at home, the politics of American Islamophobia nosy to will talk for roughly 20 to 25 minutes I mentioned will be followed.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: by David sears professor of political science and psychology at UCLA who will talk for roughly 10 to 15 minutes, the floor will go back to the Gita and then we will open up for.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Q amp a with the audience So if you would send me comments questions in the chat or raise your hand, we will then i'll then call on you, but first let me give the floor to Nikita and who will tell us about her book.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Thank you all so much for being here today, I feel really blessed.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To be here my.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: background is in political science, both at ucsd and UCLA so both are my own monitors and i'm really excited to share with you.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: A little bit about my book today um so i'm going to go ahead and get started.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So today i'm going to talk to you about this book that came out in about me.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Right really at the height of the pandemic and the book is entitled outsiders at home, the politics of American Islamophobia.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So, before I get started really talking about the crux of the argument of the book and the test that I conduct, I want to talk a little bit about who American Muslims are.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So, in the United States, we have about 3.4 or 5 million Muslims who live here, but actually Islam is a very large religion.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: There is an estimated 1.62 2.1 billion adherence globally and, as such, Islam is the second largest religious grouping behind Christianity.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's the fastest growing religion in the world today and the Muslim population is forecasted to increase by 35% over the next 20 years.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: um the Pew research Center is the entity that's responsible for having estimated the size of the Muslim population living in the United States.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But i'm going to get to this later on it's actually quite difficult to determine the true size of the Muslim American population in the United States.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Because the United States census doesn't actually track this information and so as i'm going to highlight later on this actually challenges our ability to.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To ask questions of a representative sample of American Muslims.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Whenever one thing that I think is really important, and perhaps notable for this group of people is that many us Muslims are newcomers to the United States.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So about over 50% of Muslims in America and migrants and between 1982 and 2012 about 1.7 million of the three and a half million Muslims who are here today arrived.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To the country, and so you can see that there were only 50,000 Muslims who arrived to the United States in 1992 compared to about 100,000 in 2012.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So there has been a steady rise of immigrants come to the United States but it's also important to highlight that Islam as or at least the Muslim population, the United States is an incredibly diverse population.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The first Muslims who arrived to this country actually extend back to the early 16th century so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: There was an African Muslim need estefan who actually accompanied the Spanish as a guide to the new world and the early 16th century and then, of course.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In the 1600s 30% of enslaved Africans who arrived to the United States were of the Muslim faith, so that is to say that Muslims have been in America for at least 400 years.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I want to talk a little bit about the group today and so i'm going to give some insights quickly from the Pew 2017 survey.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: conducted a survey of American Muslims in 2017 it's the third of its kind it's conducted surveys in 2011.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Excuse me 20,007 2011 and not 2017 it's the most representative survey we've got an American Muslims, because they use random digit dialing and invest between one to $3 million per survey.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So, to begin here i'm going to talk about the table to the left only 24% of Muslims are us born with US foreign parents.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In fact, most Muslims about 58% are immigrants and were born abroad and only 18% of US Muslims are like me they were born here, but their parents were born abroad.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Which means that we can actually be thinking about us Muslims, without thinking about migration and thinking about immigration policy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Moving on to the next table on the right it's also important to highlight that there's a great deal of racial diversity among us Muslims, as I indicated earlier.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So when we use Panasonic terms i'm saying this in quotation marks of how to classify Muslims.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You can see that, actually, the idea of the Middle Eastern Muslim person that we may have any American imaginary.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: actually hides and obfuscates quite a bit of the Muslim population and, so far as one fifth of American Muslims are black and 8% of the US Muslim population is Hispanic and growing.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: 41% here identifies white, but as we'll see later on this is because the white category is subsuming individuals from the Middle East and North Africa, so a great deal of racial diversity among the population.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: As we were talking a little bit earlier, please recall that foreign born us immigrants.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And the Muslim population constitute 58% but a majority of these people 56% of the 58% arrived in the United States in 2000 or later, so making them quite recent arrivals to the country.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Only 35% of the foreign born Muslim immigrant population came to the United States between 1970 and 1999 so thinking through the attachments that Muslims have to the country.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The norms that they've learned over time, the kind of assimilation acculturation that takes place over time, we have to really understand that this population is rather new to the to the country.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Moving on to the middle table, you can see here that, despite a majority of Muslims being foreign born a majority of these individuals are actually naturalized US citizens so for the purposes of those of us to interest in American politics.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: 82% of all US Muslims are US citizens indicating a valuable voter base that we should be thinking about, especially in political science as they are located in swing and battleground states.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Finally, I really like this table, because it indicates so much about where Muslims have emigrated from and how reductive our racial categories are.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So if you just consider the right hand column, you can see, which indicates.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The national origins of foreign born Muslims, you can actually see that 42% are born in the United States 20% somewhere in South Asia 27% in the Middle East or another, an Asian country 5% from sub Saharan Africa 2% in Europe and 2% in the Americas, aside from the United States.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And these are the last two figures i'm going to show um but they're important in terms of demographic as we think about this population on the left hand side.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: just want to indicate that the number of us Muslims has grown substantially from 2007 to 2017 from 2.3 million to 3.4 million.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And on the right hand side, I just want to want to highlight that Muslim Americans are actually quite a young population their median age is 35 years of age, while the US general public's median age is 47.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So we've had our primer on us Muslims let's have a discussion about this book.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The motivation behind the book is to ask one question, which is what is the status of Muslims and American democracy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Not is just very broad question, which is why the book leverages many tests to answer it, but before we get to that i'm going to highlight an argument.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The first is that current hostility towards Muslims in the United States and the American socio political context is high.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And this hostility is nothing new Muslims have long been portrayed as being in opposition to an elevated democratic and modern West.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So while there have been some significant demographic shifts and the group's composition, since their early arrival in the 1600s I argued that the marginalization of Muslim Americans has been men manifest to different degrees and towards different segments of the population for centuries.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But despite this long history of discrimination we're going to put that aside, because there is particular concern over the status of Muslims in the United States today.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And the post 911 era and well before the trump presidency, the United States had endorsed are overseeing legislation policies and interventions that affected the lives of Muslims both foreign and domestic.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And these include, for instance, the Patriot Act, the establishment of Guantanamo Bay prison the Iraq war, the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The creation of the controlled application review and resolution program so on and so forth, numerous surveillance programs, that we will discuss, so why should we be concerned about the status of Muslims in recent times i'm going to give you some reasons.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The first is that political elites linked them with the 911 attacks, this is a quote from President George W Bush, not even a week after the 911 attacks.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: when he visited the Islamic Center of Washington DC and i've highlighted the points that I would like you to pay attention to in this passage.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: What President Bush did, then, is that he linked Islam and Muslims and other eyes them by making them distinct with the attacks, even though he was trying to say something positive about Muslims what he did, is he racialized them the other rides them.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The quote reads like the good folks standing with me the American people were appalled and outrage at last tuesday's attacks and so we're all Muslims and so we're Muslims all across the world, both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens taxpaying citizens.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: and Muslims and nations were appalled and cannot believe what we saw on our TV screens.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These acts of violence against innocence violate the fundamental fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that the face of terror is not the true faith of Islam that's not what Islam is about Islam is about peace, these terrorists don't represent peace.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Next there was widespread surveillance programs and pro long detentions, this is just one example, but the NSA launched a warrantless national surveillance program that lasted from 2001 to 2007 confirming.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That what many of them, many of those numbers and population had feared, which is that widespread surveillance was.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Was white's was was in fact intact, in fact, the nypd was caught in a surveillance scandal.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Of the Yale Muslim students Association, which is problematic on so many levels, and so you know not just jurisdiction.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But that is to say that even among the most elite Muslims, you know who have made it to this Ivy league they were still being spied upon.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: There was a rise in anti Muslim bias incidents and legislation, the Council on American Islamic relations actually reports anti.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Muslim incidents there's a.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Link on their website where you can actually share if you've been a victim of an attack and care begins to investigate things.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So I argue actually a quite a bit in the book that we should be trusting the care numbers and not the FBI uniform crime reports because oftentimes.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The FBI is the source of anti Muslim incidents, as you can see here what i'd like to draw your attention to is that hate crimes and.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: problems that the FBI and other federal agencies were always sort of in the pre trump era concerns me American Muslim population but they actually rose to be the most.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The most egregious sources of anti Muslim incidents throughout the presidency and throughout the presidential campaign.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: there's also been anti Sharia law so For those of you who don't know what these are these are.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Essentially, there have been several states that i've attempted to pass anti Sharia laws and so far as they're trying to forbid.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Foreign or international law from being applied in US courts.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And these laws are more symbolic than anything else, because the establishment clause of the first amendment of the Constitution actually prohibits the government from making any law.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Respecting an establishment of religion mandates that no religious tradition, can be established as the basis of laws that apply to anyone, including Syria.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But the thing is that these laws of singled out Sharia and they've argued that it's solely violates the first amendment by treating this one beliefs as a system, a suspect.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And so many have argued that these anti Sharia laws represent a form of institutionalized Islamophobia, and in fact between 2010 and 2017 201 anti Sharia laws were introduced into state legislatures and 14 we're in fact enacted.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And finally, for those of us who are paying attention the 2016 presidential campaign actually coincided with the Syrian refugee crisis and the rise of ISIS which.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: yielded quite a few legislator comments about Muslims so john Bennett who is an Oklahoma state representative stated that American Muslims are cancer that should be cut out of America.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: David Bowers, who is the Mayor of roanoke Virginia called for the registration subsequent interment excuse me incarceration of Muslims and internment camps.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Ben Carson was a previous republican nominee or exceeding contender republican presidential contender compared Syrian refugees, many of whom are Muslim to rabid dogs.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: and, obviously, Donald trump's campaign had called for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the US.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And 2016 trump even stated that the US should have surveillance of Muslims in the country, particularly at mosques.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And Ted Cruz had actually called for the wholesale policing of Muslim neighborhoods in the United States and the wake of the Brussels attacks and, finally, there was the Muslim ban right, so there were three executive orders that were issued.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In 2017 the first one came not even a week after President trump had been an office and the Muslim ban was upheld by the Supreme Court, the United States and trump versus wide 2018 and was only recently.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: replaced when, on the first day of President biden's presidency.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But these are all anecdotal signs I argue that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Each of them is limited, so what i've shown you is are signs that the US Muslim population may be experiencing very negative.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Experiences in the American socio political context that they may be one of the most politically and socially stigmatized groups that we should be thinking about.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That this evidence of a backlash is arguably largely conjecture, and in fact Muslim Americans remain woefully understudied and I argue that we need more systematic quantitative and empirical research numerous domains to really understand the landscape of the experiences of the US population.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: there's two main character limitations and studying some Americans i'm going to highlight.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The first is that we don't actually know the true size and composition of the population, as I indicated earlier, there is no census category for religion.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: More over the white category is hiding any sort of variation that we may want to leverage from the Middle East and North Africa category, there was an effort for the 2020 census to include a Mina category that that was removed with the.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: With the trump administration The second issue is that there's very few public opinion surveys that asked about attitudes towards Muslims generally Islam, the religion.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: or Muslim Americans as a population prior to 911 so it's also hard for us to paint a landscape of how the public might have been viewing these.

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groups.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So i'm going to outline my book and provide some answers.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: My book fills this gap it conducts a comprehensive study of how us Muslims are treated in a number of different domains that I argue are vital to democratic inclusion and examines empirically using quantitative methods.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: How American Muslims, fair and American democracy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So I ask and number of questions and i'm going to highlight the questions and then i'm going to preview the answers before concluding.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The first is how does anti Muslim hostility or how do you negative attitudes towards Muslims matter for shaping candidates and policy support.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To answer this question I developed a set of survey items that i'm going to call the Muslim American resentment scale, these are particular eyes attitudes towards the group.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The second question has to do with political representation substandard representation and it asks.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: How do Muslims fair in terms of substantive representation, for instance, are Muslims ignored by their elected representatives and to answer these questions I conduct to audit studies on US State legislators to assess bias towards Muslims who asked them for constituent services.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Next I turned to the news media, I asked how has the news media historically depicted Muslims foreign and domestic.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And do news media portrayals of either group matter for the experiences of the population at home and to conduct these analysis to answer these questions I conduct analyses.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Examining CNN Fox and msnbc broadcast stemming over 20 years and run a number of experiments to see whether exposure to.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: frames of broadcast shifts attitudes.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Next, I asked what the mass public be willing to vote for Muslim candidates here, trying to test whether.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Muslim Americans have a prospect for democratic inclusion if the public is willing to elect their descriptive representatives.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And here I run several candidate evaluation experiments and, finally, I asked to what extent do Muslim Americans themselves report experiencing societal and institutional discrimination.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: This last question flips the lens from looking at the mass public legislators, the media, all these different broad lenses for which is it easier to study these questions and paint and landscape.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To the population themselves, and here I look through some unique survey surveys that i've launched of Muslims to try to understand the extent to which Muslims experience political discrimination.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Now to highlight the answers that the book.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I find across numerous policies that Muslim American resentment or anti Muslim attitudes is stronger and its predictive power than other previously proposed items that measure group attitudes.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In fact, Muslim American resentment surpasses the standard racial resentment measure across the board, and these results are quite worrisome.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Next into audit studies, I find that there is vast discrimination from elected officials.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Muslim voices are systematically ignored by their elected representatives both democratic and Republican.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So, even though Muslims strongly identify with the Democratic Party today they're not finding strong allies among democratic representative, so this can also be incredibly disconcerting for us.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Next, I find that cable news media coverage of Muslims is negative over a 20 year period of time I look at how Muslims and Muslim Americans.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Media coverage fares compared to other stigmatized groups, and I find that indeed actually the media coverage of Muslims of foreign group is increasing, is also very negative and has impacts on American public opinion so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's it's quite quite disconcerting that the media coverage about a foreign population is affecting attitudes towards a domestic group.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And Next, I find that the prospects for descriptive representation and the candidate evaluation studies, I run are quite low when Muslims run as democratic candidates, but their probability of being elected.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Is higher when they run as Republicans, but there's, of course, a low probability of that occurring because most Muslims who run for office are democrats.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Finally, I find that US Muslims perceive a great deal of suicide on institutional discrimination they regularly avoid public places and in response to the trump Muslim ban.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: They reported feeling more visible and open to physical attack with one responded even saying that they were afraid they were going to lose their.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So what can we take away from this book.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: This book largely asked how to Muslim American spirit American democracy and answering this question is complex, it requires a multi faceted approach.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But I argue that the totality of the evidence that's provided in the book provides empirical evidence of the lowering status of American or Muslims and American democracy and that the groups situation may perhaps be far worse than we may have previously imagined.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: This discrimination has not gone unnoticed either and it's not inconsequential Muslim Americans are aware of their negative situation in the American socio political context, and they are deprived of fair treatment in our democracy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I argue that the totality of these results indicates that Muslim Americans are currently experiencing substantial hostility and discrimination.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And that we should be incredibly concerned about other status, so when we conduct studies of prejudice, I believe it is imperative for us to also examine the status of Americans and my thought I think you I look forward to our discussion.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific well Thank you so much, and now why don't we.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: give the floor to David sears will comment on, as he spoke David.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Yes, we can hear you yeah.

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David Sears, UCLA: Can you hear me now.

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David Sears, UCLA: Can you hear me.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Yes, okay.

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David Sears, UCLA: Not knowing this audience and not being able to see it, I wrote out my comments which I.

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David Sears, UCLA: sent him to see that few minutes ago, which may not help her but anyway so i'm going to read them read my comments, and I think I should be able to stay within the time limit that that you've set out.

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David Sears, UCLA: This ambitious book seeks to cover the waterfront of all the major aspects of the politics of Islamophobia in America.

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David Sears, UCLA: Describing public opinion about Muslim Americans, both as targets and as agents, as well as their treatment by political officials and the media.

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David Sears, UCLA: The underlying narrative is familiar from previous applications to other American minority groups.

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David Sears, UCLA: A dominant white majority was prejudices guide them to oppose candidates and policies favorable to minority interest.

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David Sears, UCLA: media that focus disproportionately both in volume and negativity on racialized minorities minorities who feel victimized by widespread discrimination and who distrust government and who lack adequate representation within and responsiveness from government.

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David Sears, UCLA: uses an ambitious range of.

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David Sears, UCLA: methodological approaches observational public opinion surveys survey experiments and audit studies.

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David Sears, UCLA: Summer quite ingenious such as an audit study assessing legislators responsiveness by sending letters requesting a meeting for alternately a Protestant pastor pastor with an angle, a name or a mom with a Muslim name.

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David Sears, UCLA: It opportunistically Sir convinced the dearth of polling about Muslim Americans prior to 911 the presumed origin point of serious American Islamophobia, by contrast, and media coverage before and after 911 as a proxy for the changes induced in the information environment.

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David Sears, UCLA: result is the familiar portrait of a stigmatized demographic group down and down in the racial hierarchy.

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David Sears, UCLA: A new measure of anti Muslim resentment reveals it to be widespread in the general public with strong political effects detrimental to Muslims.

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David Sears, UCLA: Non Muslims are reluctant to vote for Muslim candidates non Muslim legislators are less willing to meet with the moms then with Protestant ministers.

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David Sears, UCLA: Media coverage of Muslims has become greater and volume and more negative since 911.

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David Sears, UCLA: Negative media coverage increases and I Muslim resentment and opposition to policies favorable to Muslim Americans but positive coverage doesn't help much Muslim Americans proceed pervasive discrimination against them and expect it to get worse.

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David Sears, UCLA: In some the book is a landmark first pass on applying this rationalization narrative to Muslim Americans, and I think it nails it.

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David Sears, UCLA: A lot so that's point one.

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David Sears, UCLA: it's kind of overall assessment, a lot of social science firepower is hurled at the target the conclusions or dyers you've seen already from what newsy they just said i'll quote from the short conclusions chapter which, and these are direct quotes.

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David Sears, UCLA: Which sites, the degenerating situation of Muslim Muslim Americans that has occurred rapidly, while yielding devastating political consequences.

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David Sears, UCLA: With rampant discrimination, then the quote, that she put up already the grief situation as far worse than previously imagined.

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David Sears, UCLA: For the most part the analysis is persuasive, but I am sure that someone asked to comment on the book is expected to highlight the soft spots mostly they are matters of access enthusiasm i'll just mention a few.

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David Sears, UCLA: The purportedly sharp increase of Muslims in cable news coverage immediately after 911 turned out, as far as I can see, only to have occurred as far as I can see only on msnbc.

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David Sears, UCLA: It did not increase sharply media coverage did not come Muslims did not increase sharply on CNN until a couple of years later, and on fox only in the waning years of the second that Obama administration on fox that truly skyrocketed as the trump candidacy came into view.

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David Sears, UCLA: There has, in fact, that no great increase in coverage of Muslim Americans in any of the cable news networks at any time since 911 i'll come back to that distinction between Muslims as a target and Muslim Americans as a target group.

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David Sears, UCLA: The chapter on attitude change seem to me less convincing than the other chapters.

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David Sears, UCLA: The experiments us so called pre post designs in which the participants were asked their opinions before being presented with a persuasive communication.

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David Sears, UCLA: then asked their opinions, immediately afterwards, opening the door for possibly are the factual appearance of persuasion, due to the demand characteristics of the situation.

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David Sears, UCLA: Negative news coverage of Muslims and Muslim Americans had significantly more impact than positive coverage, but the difference, seem to me to be pretty small averaging about 2% of the scale, if I have it right.

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David Sears, UCLA: The greater legislator responsiveness to the practice and pastor than to him i'm occurred only among republican legislators are legislative offices anyway.

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David Sears, UCLA: that's hard to it's hard to tell them, whether that reflects greater openness to the highly religious white Protestant the the core base of the Republican Party or discrimination against the Muslim and non.

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David Sears, UCLA: Muslim Americans are described as perceiving quote rampant political and societal discrimination against them in 2017.

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David Sears, UCLA: But the mean perceived discrimination across eight items was just passed once in a while and never approached somewhat often okay so.

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David Sears, UCLA: What the what they're saying in terms of their perceived discrimination is what once in a while, rather than even somewhat often.

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David Sears, UCLA: Similarly, the fear of future discrimination is described as pervasive yet the mean level that somewhere between neither likely nor unlikely and somewhat likely.

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David Sears, UCLA: Another survey seemingly invited a critical response by asking Muslims what affects the recent integration and visa ban has had on you or.

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David Sears, UCLA: Other Muslims in the United States, a large number of negative responses are listed without specifying the criteria for inclusion or the representative of the quotes presented.

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David Sears, UCLA: In terms of the writing style the book The up the author hustled right alone.

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David Sears, UCLA: Like short paragraphs and a punchy style, which is the way she's written rather than the frequent academic style of paragraphs that go onward and often inward forever.

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David Sears, UCLA: But sometimes I wanted to tug on her coattails and say wait, can we go over that a little bit more slowly.

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David Sears, UCLA: Sometimes complex table or figure is explained in the text, and only a couple of sentences, sometimes, the conclusions are somewhat overdrawn, we all know, the author, to be passionate So did we ever expect the story to sound as if it was written by a bloodless CPA Of course not.

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David Sears, UCLA: Okay, then my last points to repeat the book falls into the genre of studying both sides of the divide between the dominant vibration group and American and minority group down.

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David Sears, UCLA: Further down in the racial hierarchy in this case Muslim Americans, however, it is sometimes too easy to blur the differences among various groups often categorized as people of color.

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David Sears, UCLA: The familiar contemporary narrative about racialized minorities may share common elements across groups So yes, they all might be.

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David Sears, UCLA: Examples of responses to the other or other ization as an easy to put it, a few minutes ago, of course, all are stigmatized and discriminated against, to some extent, but that may not exhaust what we might say about them, the differences among them, maybe consequential to.

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David Sears, UCLA: For example, the history of being at the Center of political controversy has been a recurrent theme of black history for for centuries.

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David Sears, UCLA: Whereas far more epic is far more episodic and often local for other minority groups Latino and Asian populations are heavily derived from reason immigration.

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David Sears, UCLA: Almost blacks or two sentences slave families from the century and a half ago Latins and Latinos Asians intermarry with whites more heavily than the blacks, many of whom.

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David Sears, UCLA: Like Michelle Obama, for example, there bear the hidden heritage up miscegenation with white slave owning families.

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David Sears, UCLA: The color line may be considerably more impermeable for blacks in terms of intermarriage and residential location and social identity, and it is for Asians and Latinos.

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David Sears, UCLA: A phenomena and i've called black exceptionalism these differences might make one cautious about assuming that one size fits all in the simplest duration of the racialized narrative.

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David Sears, UCLA: What is unique about Muslim Americans, they are relatively small group as minorities go, they have not been highly visible in public life of the nation.

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David Sears, UCLA: There is no Muslim Congressional Caucus as far as I know, most Americans seem to have little personal contact with them.

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David Sears, UCLA: Up until 911 they were perhaps not very salient to other Americans hardly at the head of the line.

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David Sears, UCLA: of protest against restrictive treatment of immigrants, where the participants and ghetto rioting or the central figures in frantic calls for law and order.

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David Sears, UCLA: They are relatively speaking, rather successful in our society more like East Asians or South Asians then like African Americans who are poor Latinos as the book shows, they are collectively quite well educated.

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David Sears, UCLA: To last proof points, much of the research in this book is focused on a category of people, known as as Muslims, rather than non Muslim Americans.

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David Sears, UCLA: The subtitle of the book refers to know something Americans, the stigma attached to Muslim Americans comes, unlike these other groups, primarily for Muslims abroad, rather than from the domestic version, despite the subtitle of the book.

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David Sears, UCLA: Social psychologist might suspect that the cognitive associations to the two categories Muslims and Muslim Americans are consequentially different maybe, yes, maybe, no.

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David Sears, UCLA: It is striking that the increase in the volume of cable news coverage since 911 occurred for Muslims, but not at all and coverage of Muslim Americans.

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David Sears, UCLA: On the other hand, the negativity of the coverage seems not to have different between the two target groups, so I just leave that on the table it's kind of unknown.

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David Sears, UCLA: That was a question that was raised for me as as a psychologist trying to think about you know what are whites thinking about when they think when they think about Muslims.

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David Sears, UCLA: Non Muslim way it's me.

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David Sears, UCLA: Is the future of Muslim Americans as as dire as portrayed in the conclusions of the book the intense attention paid to Muslims today seems to have been stimulated by 911.

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David Sears, UCLA: The Muslim ban would probably never have occurred without it so called Muslim ban we don't know for sure, of course, historical counterfactual so always start met with alternative possibilities.

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David Sears, UCLA: But external external political events have stigmatized other American minority groups in the past.

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David Sears, UCLA: Even though the traces of that stigma seem to have vanished long ago, despite the betrayal betrayal of Pearl harbor and the subsequent bloody Pacific war.

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David Sears, UCLA: And the harsh removal of Japanese Americans to internment camps Japanese Americans today are an average quite successful.

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David Sears, UCLA: No one calls for the boycott of Japanese that automobiles or the exclusion of Japanese tourists.

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David Sears, UCLA: Despite initiating to bloody civil wars costing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans Germany is among our most reliable Germany is among our most reliable international ally German cars are highly respected and fast selling and German tourists are welcome.

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David Sears, UCLA: In conclusion, the book seems to me to have impressively covered the main features of the waterfront to be shared, as the first cut and in some places somewhat rough.

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David Sears, UCLA: Sometimes it is a bit over enthusiastic about it signings sometimes it's fit with the standard racialized minority narrative it's a bit forced.

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David Sears, UCLA: The possible differences between Muslims and Islam Americans as target groups and noisy as i've said, but this book will be an indispensable starting point for any other work on the subject.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Well, thank you so much for those provocative comments David not want to you and as ITO.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Thank you so much, David I mean you really have done a really thorough read the book and I tremendously.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: i'm going to just sort of you know.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: respond to some of your points and I think i'm just going to sort of ruminate on sort of the challenges I think of studying American Muslims, so the diversity of the group and the differences by which each of the subsets of the group.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Have have come to this country and have experienced.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Identity formation in this country makes it actually quite a challenge to study in Muslims right so it's.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's actually really hard to to study the group themselves, you have to sort of study it from.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Either you know really understanding the inner sectional identities that they hold and and really sort of try to understand how their experiences their racial experiences there gendered experiences their visibility their immigrant experience how all these different.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These aspects of their identity might be shaping their really unique.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: outcomes in in the American.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Socio political context.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And that is that is rather challenging to do, especially when we don't know how many there are so and we're who they are, and what really the distribution is you know we can kind of use the Pew estimates as a rough proxy but.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That that that creates some challenges, you know our best estimate today is the Pew estimate, but what I didn't mention is that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Estimates actually range from two to 12 million, the State Department once said there were 12 million Muslims, so you can imagine, for those of us who are sort of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: sitting here being like okay well how do we even begin to put together a sampling strategy like this is actually really difficult to do.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: On top of that, like let's think about who are the visible Muslims in America, you know, right now, the probably the most visible Muslims in the United States are on Omar and refuted sleep.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Right and it'll Han Omar, especially has really garnered a great deal of attention both among political elites, but also.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know, and in the public domain, and the question is, you know what part of our identity is a striking a chord is it her Muslim identity is it her immigrant identity is it her black identity.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Is it her gender is it right there's so many different aspects of this identity that those of us who want to study you know even what happens to our elected officials when they finally do arrive, you know it's it's it's very hard to sort of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Try to parse through the experiences of US Muslims and what might be driving them what part of their identities is driving their perceptions of experiences in the contraceptive political context, and I think that this is one group, where the pan ethnic label really does a disservice.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know, I think that we need a lot more specialization on South Asian Muslims versus East Asian Muslims versus you know black Muslims versus Middle Eastern wisdom, so this is definitely the challenge the critical challenge in studying with Americans.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And then on the flip side if you try to understand like how they might be.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: perceived you know by by the American public.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The challenge grows even more, because the images that are being constantly communicated.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Like are those of a stereotypical Middle Eastern person either a man who is bearded with darker skin or a woman who has failed, and so the images, I think that that are being.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: disseminated the mass public are not exactly representative of even the group themselves in the United States, and so this is why you know you see in Kansas city at a bar to seek Indian men are attacked by.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know somebody who thinks that they're there they're Iranian you know can't even really tell the difference.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So I just I think in in you know there's so many different groups are being racialized as Muslim and fitting a phenotype and a stereotype.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: When the American public isn't even aware of this, these are, like some of the greatest challenges I think of studying the Muslim population is their inherent diversity.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: of experiences, but also among the group and.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: This The second thing I wanted to comment on is the distinction between foreign and domestic I think that was a very helpful point that you made.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And it's one that i've struggled with a lot, which is that this is a very unique group and so far as foreign events and foreign coverage are shaping our discourse in the country and that's having an impact on how we view the group at home, although this might be some sort of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These might be different cognitive processes are happening that maybe need to be and.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: disentangled a bit further in future research, so I you know, I think that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: For those of us who want to understand the experiences of their group at home it's just what makes them so different, of course, is that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: At the moment, right now, maybe not right now in this very second because it's covert but prior to this really for the last.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Over the last two decades, a great deal of our foreign policy has been has been targeting Muslim majority countries, and so they have been in our in our national discussions and so that's it's tricky thing right how.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: How much of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: How much of our information about foreign group is trickling down to the domestic group, I think that yeah I think there's a.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: We we should all be doing kind of a better job at thinking and articulating and theories about that um I guess the final thing i'll say is that um it's one thing i've always wanted to study is how groups are positioned in the racial hierarchy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know, as you said.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: There was a point right where Japanese Americans were not.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Welcome, but into internment camps and yet great discrimination.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: salience of a group can change and the treatment of a group can change your example about German automobiles like a very good one, as well, so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know, will this change, you know where where it'll this move in the future that sheet into this group is this a forever thing, or will they constantly be.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Will this.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Will this treatment and then these experiences be as dire as perhaps painted and bug and.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: i'm interested to see how the next few years and fold, especially with the Iran agreement you know, to see if we're able to enter back in to a deal and nuclear deal and see right so so far.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Perhaps there is a bit more room for optimism no leave it there, and all I want to thank you i'm just such an admirer of David and so i'm really grateful for your your comments and you're spending time to engage with my work.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific Thank you so much Okay, so why don't we now turn to the audience, let me see whether there is any okay if anybody wants to.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Ask the questions so far, we have a shy audience, but I am I want to encourage you to to pose a question either send me in the chat or.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: or raise your hand alright so so far everybody's shy, so let me, let me then.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: It.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: David do you want to respond, yes.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Please David.

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David Sears, UCLA: I think I had two things to what you just said, one is that I think.

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David Sears, UCLA: The presentation you just made earlier today.

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David Sears, UCLA: really got me to thinking about the diversity of the Muslim population in a way that I was not thinking about as I read the book.

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David Sears, UCLA: and

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David Sears, UCLA: And I think it's a terribly important point.

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David Sears, UCLA: Because they do seem to come from so many different.

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David Sears, UCLA: Cultural origins and related point is that it reminds me of of the.

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David Sears, UCLA: Of the.

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David Sears, UCLA: dilemma that Asian Americans face.

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David Sears, UCLA: we've done quite a bit of research on the identity social identities of Asian Americans and particularly among the more recent immigrants they're much more likely to identify with their national regiments than they are within a mythical pan ethnic group such as Asian Americans.

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David Sears, UCLA: On the other hand, white people see them all, just as kind of most white people see them as undifferentiated Asian Asian Americans and.

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David Sears, UCLA: So you have you have that kind of discrepancy disparity between the way the group itself.

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David Sears, UCLA: identifies and the way they are viewed by the by the outside group and that seems to me to be even more true from what you've just said and not knowing much about it myself of Muslim Americans, because when you think of black Muslims often converted not always.

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David Sears, UCLA: As opposed to Persians I mean we're talking.

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David Sears, UCLA: This is not, or in people from India, you know I mean we're not talking about subtle minor differences and and for you to.

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David Sears, UCLA: Do is as well as you've done in in studying how how that very diverse group feels about America being in American society strikes me as.

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David Sears, UCLA: Well, you put it, as you call it a challenge, I that I think I understand that.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You want to further reflect rosita.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I was so thank you so much, I didn't realize, I was muted i'm Thank you yeah I just do want to say one thing, which is that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The the association with national origin is something that's been documented among the the.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Like scholarship on Muslim Americans, so people have found, especially among immigrant population, which of course is the majority of Muslims in America, there is a stronger association with.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: national origin and like not a lot of buying into the Muslim groups, so a lot of experiments out there, you know donate to a charity of your of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: your home country versus like to a Muslim charity versus to a charity that has nothing to do you're going to go to one that the benefits for home tears there's even like in behavior and charitable behavior there's these types of outcomes so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's, this is a challenge, you know when we when we impose these kind of labels on on groups, because even among the Muslim population, of course, we have cleavages that I haven't even brought up like Sunni, Shia and those are just the main.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Because there's so many more denominations, so you know, we have our we have our our work cut out for us, and instead.

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David Sears, UCLA: But, but on the other hand.

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David Sears, UCLA: The reason that the subject is important, is because, to the majority population of this country it's a much more unified group and it's a political group and it's that that's what makes the subject so important.

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David Sears, UCLA: to study.

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David Sears, UCLA: almost as if in a kind of Walter lippmann sense.

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David Sears, UCLA: it's a made up.

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David Sears, UCLA: creature of the amount of the imagination of the American public.

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David Sears, UCLA: As opposed to reflecting real flesh and blood individuals.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay terrific way to begin Marjorie do you want to go ahead and have the MIC.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: Sure, well, first of all thank you for this wonderful discussion i'm sorry I haven't read the book, but I look forward to doing so, I just wanted to see but adding to this conversation about.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: You know where how, where and when a difference, a difference makes that.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: And, and I guess the one thing i'm wondering about is practices, so I mean this phenotype does who you viewed to be who you are assumed to be and and how that impacts how you're treated there's how it shows up in last surnames or or.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: occupations or all kinds of ways people decide Oh, this is a and bring prejudices to bear there's also the practices people engage in that.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: That make you more of a member or not a member of a group and also how one is treated in sometimes those are not very visible practices, some might be.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: But i'm thinking of even you know just the equivalent of Catholicism you know not particularly visible but there's a whole set of practices values and beliefs that can set people in.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: intention with dominant cultural values and that may affect her so I guess i'm just curious about anything you could add as we think about how differences, make a difference in the lives of people.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I want to take your second question first and just sort of plug for.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: vicki fuca at Stanford she has a really wonderful paper that I had the privilege to read about.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: adolescents in Germany who, after.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Tara terrorist attacks, I believe, or after started with a rise in hate crimes they actually.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: There was a drop and how much they expressed their religiosity so and she measured this by visiting mosques and like going to.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: reported individuals reporting going to mosques so it's almost like when you're visible and when you're a target you sort of downplay your attachment to the outcome.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I have seen the same thing in the United States and not through any like systematic quantitative evidence, but through interviews and so, especially around the time when there were attacks on mosques people reported not visiting mosques as much.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So in that way there's like an you know, an effort to protect oneself there's like a dual role right so it's protecting yourself from victimization but it's also like.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: somewhat of a conformity to the dominant culture right, so you sort of like downplay those differences, but what did not change, interestingly enough, was private.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: prayer so daily prayer does not change and it's it's the the practices that you hold in private, that are not visible and that people cannot see as differences that are not overt that do not change, which I think is kind of interesting.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Because that's you would you wouldn't you know attachments to to the to the group or just they run deeper than that right, so I think that's.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: that's interesting and to your first question about you know who are they you know when do we perceive them I think there's a lot of people who pass.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And i'm not as visible, and so you certainly see.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: A greater perception of discrimination among those who are just more visible and.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: That really a question in the chat just in the Q amp a just like.

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Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: yeah just.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Have a look um but but yeah I mean it's I think I think it's really about visibility and who, who is who is identified I think if I was wearing a scarf today, you would identify me immediately as.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: As a Muslim, but if I told you, I was in you know, in Italy, you might say, oh she just likes a nice county you know, so it, you know, those of us who can pass from one context to another it's there's there's a privilege, in that, and I think the associations that.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: We, the associations to the tropes right that a lot of Muslims are are identify with things that can be lessened by being able to code switch like.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay uh the i'm.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In my Garcia, you have your hand raised, do you want to can you grab the MIC or do you want to send me a chat.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Go ahead.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: Can you hear me.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Yes, yes.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: i'm height um yeah I rather go see if I have to type my question will be here all day.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: Thank you so much for your talk, I had a couple of questions one had to do, given the immense diversity of Muslims in America.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: Do you find that there is one group that has more institutional cloud, for you know calling or influence in in in the US Government and.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: What kind of impact if so, what kind of impact, do you think that has so that is one.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: You know, one question that I have, and then the second question, you know um when when we talk about Islamophobia in the US in many ways, well, let me back up you know when we talk about Islamophobia in Europe actually.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: We we located at the intersection what, of course, you have the whole historical backdrop of how Europe defines itself in relation to Islam, but also it and the intersection of that history, plus.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: What is being called more recent phenomena that, like, for instance, the racial ization of religion.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: Or the Islamization of immigration right and that's sort of at the crux of that intersection that we locate Islamophobia in Europe, so I was wondering, I mean, certainly in the US, you can also talk when you talk about Islamophobia, you can also talk about Islamization of.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: The Islamization of immigration and we we saw that in a lot of the policies you talked about, and we can also talk about.

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Inmaculada Garcia-Sanchez: Racial ization of religion, but the dynamics are completely different, so how, how do you see America Islamophobia in the US in in relation to to these things, thank you.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Thank you so much for these questions they were brilliant Thank you it's just my goodness um I really love to engage with us so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: to your first point about you know, is there one group with a bit more institutional clout among the US Muslim population in terms of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Being able to sort of liaise with the US Government that the quite, the answer is yes, so there's a doctoral student at penn right now her name is Hydra alpha home I keep an eye out for her she's fantastic.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: she's doing work showing this very phenomenon which is that black Muslims.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Actually, are quite connected to the black political arm of the Democratic Party and through this relationship they're actually able to bring the rest of the most non black Muslim population into local politics, and so, especially when you see like.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Her work it's it's phenomenal insofar as she describes like.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: How, historically, this has worked in cities where the nation of Islam has been President, so if there is a group actually that is helping to sort of.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: create a connection or nexus between the Muslim population and American politics.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's certainly the black Muslim population, you know black Muslims are 20% of US Muslims, but they're only 1% of the black population, so there is like there's a notable difference to think about meaningfully.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: On to your second point about Islamophobia in Europe, and of course there's a different history, and this is, you know i'm currently in Sweden, right now, where there is a unique relationship with Syrian refugees.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: here to to study and to work on, and you know when you consider a country like France, of course, when you have these colonial histories, you know and 20% of your country.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: is composed of Muslims your relationship, historically and currently are going to look different with with Muslims, and so the racial ization of Islam and their immigrant population looks very different with the racial ization of Islam in the United States.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But I would argue that there still is a rationalization of Islam in the United States that's been formed through a different mechanism and so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: While I while you know, arguably, like the Islam has become racialized or immigration has become Islamist sized in Europe because of those colonial history.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In the United States, the way it's worked the race, the rationalization of Islam has really down to our foreign policy it's the wars that we've launched in the Gulf it's down to.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The hostage crisis it's down to you know, trying to launch a coup and Iran, it goes.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: It goes back in time but it's really related to our influence in the Middle East, and so I would say it's much more related to our foreign policy, rather than to are like a like a distinct immigrant group in the United States, and of course that's been reified a bit.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: With you know World Trade Center bombing.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Yet with 911, of course, all the subsequent events, but I do you think through different historical processes, you know we've we've we've come to two ratio ization of Islam in Europe and in the United States that look a bit different I would say.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That causes Okay, let me pose a question sent to me in the chat, so this is from mizner Akbar was an undergraduate.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: attending the program I enjoyed the talk, thank you for your time, did you look into the difference in responses between individuals who might be considered quote visibly.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Unquote Muslim particular particularly jabbing mostly Muslim women versus non head job the Muslim women, it would be unsurprising if there were major differences in their experiences with discrimination, but just wondering if you looked into this.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Yes, I have i've looked into it with my colleagues and I know Walker aubrey westfall and casters school, we have paper called veiled politics, and so there we look at the Pew data sets that I mentioned at the beginning.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: We look over time and these data sets and we find that Muslim women who are veiled.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Actually perceive greater amounts of societal discrimination that is like getting heart, you know getting prejudicial looks.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The type of discrimination, you would experience in day to day society feeling unwelcome in public spaces are getting unfair treatment and restaurants or stores.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That type of discrimination was heightened among veiled women and also institutional discrimination as well, which is like the type of discrimination, you would face by bureaucrats like airport tsa being pulled over more so, we did we did see that as well, so.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Certainly visibility seems to have have have a play play a role in shaping people's perceptions of their experiences discrimination.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay um one second another question from the audience from Andrew Lee I am curious what your books implications are for the color line in America, for instance, do you think the color lines become white slash non black black slash non black or perhaps should try racial hierarchy.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: that's a good question so hard question um I was told to not take a stance on that, when I was writing the book.

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But.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Then touching told me take it out.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Take it out um.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I think my gut tells me that David is onto something which is that different groups experience.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Other ization.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: two distinct degrees depending on like what's happening so so politically, like the context really does matter.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I think there is a white non black divide, and I think the position ality of other groups is somewhere in the middle and shifting you know and its context dependent.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: At least that's what I would say, is my gut feeling, but I don't think my book, takes a stance on it, because I was told to take it out.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Okay.

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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: All right, David Fitzgerald.

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David FitzGerald, UCSD: yeah thanks very much many questions, but to begin i'm wondering if, in your deep dive into the data, you have been able to tease apart the differences between attitudes towards Muslims and say Christian Arabs or other.

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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Non Muslim Arabs and in this country if you can say anything systematic about the differences between attitudes towards Muslims in the US, compared to other countries of immigration and other countries that are not of large scale immigration so even China.

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David FitzGerald, UCSD: And then, finally, prompted by what David sears was saying about how surprising, it is that you know Germans are considered allies and so forth.

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David FitzGerald, UCSD: I just think about the concept of the Judeo Christian tradition that is thrown around even by a lot of conservatives in the US, which would have seemed completely nonsensical for most of American history.

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David FitzGerald, UCSD: With the prominent role of anti Catholicism and US nativism that might they're not be some kind of quadruple melting pot down the road the you know, Herbert Protestant Catholic do, but they would also add Muslim to to that pot.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: i'm very, very good questions, thank you to your last one I hope so, but overall look we'll revisit um.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So teasing apart attitudinal differences towards Muslims and Arabs middle easterners like these different types of formulations of how we might posit these groups can be.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: discussed, I do some of that work and my appendix, and especially using the media data I subset all the universe of all media texts that I have, and I look at well.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Why Muslims my Muslim Americans, why should we care right, and I find that you know actually in the immediate aftermath of 911.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The discuss the media discussion of Arabs was the one that skyrocketed the most all groups experienced an increase all sorts of formulations of these groups experienced an increase in coverage.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: But the coverage of Arab Americans steadily declined and actually.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In 2003 around the Iraq war and the coverage of Muslim Americans skyrocket doesn't skyrocket but relative to the other groups, it increases.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And so I sort of create this argument which is like i'm going to study Muslim Americans there the relevant group of study, because.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: what was happening in the immediate aftermath of 911 is scholars were actually studying all of these different groups somewhere setting Arab American summer studying middle easterners summer setting Muslims, nobody really knew which group was the right group to study essentially.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: And so, so the book sort of makes its argument based on that finding, but I have done some work that actually find the attitudes towards Muslims versus Arabs are quite distinct and the population is actually quite aware of differences and there is a negative.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: there's a penalty like in Canada evaluation experiments, if you.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: study that was recently published that that I that I co authored candidates who signaled that they were Arab did not face a penalty but with the addition of a Muslim.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Identity marker they were penalized and so certainly subsequent work has shown that the attitudes are in fact distinct and I think part of this actually goes historically to what happened around 911.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Because.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: For some time, the majority of Arabs in this country were actually Christian and so, especially like for the court cases that we saw early on in the 1910s.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These nationalization cases that came through.

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Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That referred to, to that that had plaintiffs from the Middle East, they were actually typically Middle Eastern Christians fighting for privileges of whiteness and so it's.

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01:08:47.100 --> 01:08:59.580

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's kind of fascinating that that that history continued to the 911 circumstance, where actually a lot of Arab groups came out and said, you know we're we're mostly Christian, in fact, this is not about us, this is not.

416

01:09:00.360 --> 01:09:07.530

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: sort of really trying to create distance from the attacks on 911 and so historically you saw that happen as well and.

417

01:09:08.250 --> 01:09:17.850

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: systematically I did not compare to other countries, which I think now that you've mentioned it, as is actually a really great idea to go back and do.

418

01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:31.890

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Other countries have immigration try to really see how how this coverage might might fair, and so I think that's a really great idea and I appreciate that, but I did I did look at coverage of China.

419

01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:45.300

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In for another paper and I found that the coverage of Asian Americans was actually for some time, very closely linked to to their coverage of.

420

01:09:46.110 --> 01:09:53.220

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Asian relations actually so like when the terms Asian Americans should pop up in the media, the story was either.

421

01:09:53.820 --> 01:10:00.810

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: referencing them in a list of like statistics with other stigmatized groups in the US or it was like about foreign policy with.

422

01:10:01.530 --> 01:10:10.140

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Other countries, so does seem like there is a pan ethnic group in the United States that when they're talking about in the media, they are being discussed with like a a forum.

423

01:10:12.240 --> 01:10:19.140

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: With like a foreign country and then, finally, like the Judeo Christian tradition, can we see like a quadrupling of it.

424

01:10:21.270 --> 01:10:25.920

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Cut quadrupling melting pot I don't know um I mean, I think.

425

01:10:26.940 --> 01:10:34.770

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I hope so, like I I truly do hope so and I have a lot of faith in the youth of America and in the way.

426

01:10:36.210 --> 01:10:49.020

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That inclusion manifests itself in this next generation, I think this is really inspiring, however, like you know any one of us who's read Samuel Huntington knows how traditionally Islam has been.

427

01:10:50.100 --> 01:10:58.200

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: manufactured and perceived and long bottom even among elite elites and academic institutions and so.

428

01:10:59.640 --> 01:11:01.890

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know it's it's a question where the.

429

01:11:02.940 --> 01:11:07.500

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Stopping and thinking about I hope I hope that we've moved past it.

430

01:11:09.330 --> 01:11:09.750

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Now.

431

01:11:11.220 --> 01:11:21.300

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay excellent Thank you so much, so I don't see anybody else for the raised hand or in the chat so let me, let me then start to pose a series of question I guess the first one, I want you know you.

432

01:11:21.690 --> 01:11:29.910

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You use racial ization of the realization almost interchangeably, but it seems to me they can't mean the same thing so i'm wondering what exactly.

433

01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:31.440

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Do they mean to you.

434

01:11:31.680 --> 01:11:47.580

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: How does other ization different from rationalization and how would you how do you know racial ization when you see it, I mean it seems to me that the point you made earlier that visibility greatly alters the the likelihood of.

435

01:11:49.080 --> 01:11:59.430

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Discriminatory behavior suggests that rationalization is not the fundamental process that is racial Is there something seems to be behind regionalisation some easily identifiable.

436

01:11:59.910 --> 01:12:06.720

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: trait that produces uniformity of experiences, but here you're telling us actually that a very easily manipulated trait.

437

01:12:07.470 --> 01:12:20.340

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Take the job off put it on and people do that they want, depending on how how they feel when they get up in the morning, that that produces a great deal of heterogeneity and inexperienced, and if you add the ways in which I mean.

438

01:12:21.630 --> 01:12:39.060

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Let me stop I mean i'll add one other thing I mean Islam innocent up is a is a behavior unlike Christianity Islam as a behaviourally based religion and so and that then again allows for tremendous tremendous variation.

439

01:12:40.110 --> 01:12:44.370

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And so, and if you add that, on top of the incredible.

440

01:12:45.870 --> 01:12:49.680

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Incredible differences and socio economic characteristics and origins.

441

01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:58.410

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: In this a very powerful for us pushing against the kind of homogenising process that results from the antagonistic.

442

01:13:00.330 --> 01:13:05.250

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Views your behaviors of whatever white Americans or Americans pure and simple.

443

01:13:06.690 --> 01:13:16.680

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So very, very good questions and I appreciate them to me rationalization is sort of the coding and treatment of a population.

444

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:24.450

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That is perceived and treated and perceived as being disloyal or inferior.

445

01:13:25.170 --> 01:13:30.810

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, but that that but that's not the perception of African Americans it's not just loyalty is not.

446

01:13:31.230 --> 01:13:36.540

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Right that's not the key there it's the could be the inferiority but definitely not the disloyalty.

447

01:13:38.790 --> 01:13:39.390

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I think.

448

01:13:39.750 --> 01:13:43.470

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So I would argue, and I do in the book that their racial ization is.

449

01:13:43.470 --> 01:13:51.450

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: tied to their perceptions of their tropes of violence of disloyalty of.

450

01:13:53.310 --> 01:13:59.970

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: inferiority and and that that racial ization process and.

451

01:14:01.950 --> 01:14:06.510

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: has occurred through them being coded in names and trope to such.

452

01:14:06.750 --> 01:14:07.110

mm hmm.

453

01:14:08.670 --> 01:14:14.400

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Now racial ization can happen for different groups and through different processes.

454

01:14:15.660 --> 01:14:27.690

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Right, so the experiences, the racial ization of African Americans arguably doesn't have to follow the same pathway, as it does for other groups other groups can end up racialized.

455

01:14:32.490 --> 01:14:35.010

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Through through through distinct processes, I would.

456

01:14:35.160 --> 01:14:35.760

I would imagine.

457

01:14:37.200 --> 01:14:50.910

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: um I think other ization is the harder side to all of this, and so sort of sidestep the racial ization component and to move to other ization I think that's the harder that's the harder phenomenon to.

458

01:14:52.200 --> 01:14:52.920

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To.

459

01:14:54.840 --> 01:15:02.190

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To measure because that's probably, in my opinion, or at least the way i've been processing is like that's where I see visibility as mattering.

460

01:15:03.240 --> 01:15:16.680

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Visibility makes you more likely to be identified and makes you more likely to go through these experiences that are distinct from the experiences of the majority, I think that.

461

01:15:18.330 --> 01:15:19.500

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: At least the way that i've been.

462

01:15:23.250 --> 01:15:26.640

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: i've been observing and i've been i've been processing that the.

463

01:15:27.960 --> 01:15:33.300

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know the population is that visibility makes people uniquely.

464

01:15:34.920 --> 01:15:48.180

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: susceptible to target, and I would I would argue that, like attachment to a head job, for instance, is not something that one chooses to take off lightly I don't think it's something that someone just puts on and takes off it's it's very.

465

01:15:49.650 --> 01:15:59.070

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The it's it's nuanced right like in the sense that there's there are many who were for most where it's there's a very strong attachment, and so, as you said, it's a behavioral.

466

01:16:01.620 --> 01:16:05.070

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Practice so, so I think.

467

01:16:06.240 --> 01:16:13.260

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: For me it's the other ization that's been tied to the visibility's i'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

468

01:16:14.580 --> 01:16:19.740

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: yeah I mean Okay, and maybe it was to flip about the the the the.

469

01:16:20.820 --> 01:16:35.070

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You know, taking off and taking on the head job, I think that certainly that's certainly true for in some cases, but but and, and I mean that you know, there are a whole range of choices that one in a behaviourally based.

470

01:16:36.390 --> 01:16:43.530

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: or ritual based religion, there are a whole series of choices that we can make in order to Okay, but let me, let me then move to another.

471

01:16:44.220 --> 01:16:55.200

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Another question if you don't mind so and, and that is to to think about, then it again, seems to me, and this point that David made also that that one of the.

472

01:16:56.700 --> 01:17:00.000

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One of the distinguishing i'm not going to say you need, but one of the distinguishing.

473

01:17:00.870 --> 01:17:06.450

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: features of Muslim Americans and and especially as it affects their.

474

01:17:06.870 --> 01:17:19.080

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: perception with by the border American public has to do with the external dimension so again if we think about compare the compare Muslim Americans to black Americans external dimension for the latter is almost irrelevant it's all internal.

475

01:17:19.470 --> 01:17:25.650

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But for Muslim Americans its external is is this is very powerful, but the external takes different forms, so.

476

01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:28.500

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Of course, external we can think about the Iraq war that's.

477

01:17:28.530 --> 01:17:36.840

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: One type American intervention abroad, you mentioned, I mean the overthrow of Musa Dag in 19 4054 Those are all the all of that there's that history.

478

01:17:37.650 --> 01:17:47.520

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: But then, you know you have the Paris attacks, so the Paris attacks, and in this sense, and this, I think, speaks to your original slide about the bush quote permissions tax after whoa.

479

01:17:48.270 --> 01:18:00.450

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: are an expression of of a particular I mean, I believe, or an expression of a particular understanding of Islam so it's an it's an example of conflict within Islam.

480

01:18:01.620 --> 01:18:05.370

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For that same thing can be said to prices so that.

481

01:18:06.420 --> 01:18:14.460

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That that there are events taking place within the Islamic world that then have a series of spillovers outside.

482

01:18:15.660 --> 01:18:18.360

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And then one can distinguish between.

483

01:18:20.100 --> 01:18:23.100

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: let's say terrorist attacks, whether it's.

484

01:18:24.450 --> 01:18:40.830

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Whether Paris or or or or otherwise, and then the Syrian refugee crisis which is again a totally different there, it may be place of the world that is actually important there, it may be more the Middle East, but the Middle East again some sense of spillover so I guess, my question is.

485

01:18:42.300 --> 01:18:46.560

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Given the importance of the external can you think about.

486

01:18:47.760 --> 01:19:10.020

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: The impact of differences within the nature of the external events that then feedback into into and remember me think about the other historical examples we're not it's not an inter imperialist conflict, as it was Japan us us Germany, but so the nature of the external.

487

01:19:11.610 --> 01:19:13.920

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: stimulus is very different.

488

01:19:17.280 --> 01:19:18.060

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So.

489

01:19:20.130 --> 01:19:26.700

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The nature of the external stimulus is certainly different, and it certainly varies quite a bit.

490

01:19:28.830 --> 01:19:29.460

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I think.

491

01:19:31.980 --> 01:19:43.380

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: They are related however um so you don't have a Syrian civil war without an invasion of the Middle East, I the question ministrations.

492

01:19:43.410 --> 01:19:47.850

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: You don't end up but not without a Tunisian revolution either, which was indigenous.

493

01:19:48.570 --> 01:19:50.400

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Right, but you do have right so.

494

01:19:51.780 --> 01:19:57.720

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: said, like all of these are things like there's so much spillover happening with all of these.

495

01:19:58.740 --> 01:20:01.230

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These episodes and I think that.

496

01:20:02.370 --> 01:20:11.760

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's a feedback loop of sorts it's really hard you know it's so the linkages I think I think are there um I guess I would respectfully disagree about.

497

01:20:13.410 --> 01:20:14.100

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: The.

498

01:20:15.510 --> 01:20:21.570

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know the bombings, being an expression of of Islam, I think this is.

499

01:20:23.700 --> 01:20:31.380

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: What am I pet peeves about like when we call things like the Islamist is that Islamization of violence or that That to me is.

500

01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:41.160

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: These are, these are hard terms, because I think they can be sweeping and I wish we had better better terms but um I guess.

501

01:20:41.730 --> 01:20:44.010

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: i'm trying it's an expression of cons, I mean.

502

01:20:44.250 --> 01:20:46.140

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: It is, it is an expression of calm.

503

01:20:46.770 --> 01:20:49.470

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Within within the religion that's my only point.

504

01:20:49.560 --> 01:20:56.130

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: it's an expression certainly have differences of cleavages of of.

505

01:20:57.810 --> 01:21:07.590

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Certainly, but I don't know if the average American understands that I don't know if those differences are made salient to.

506

01:21:08.010 --> 01:21:20.430

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: or precisely understood or you know the nuances in those differences are are being processed or being even communicated in a way that the average person would understand that.

507

01:21:20.880 --> 01:21:28.050

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I don't know if people draw those distinctions, and so, when it comes to the information shortcuts people have to make.

508

01:21:28.980 --> 01:21:38.670

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: You know, I wonder if they're they're actually making distinctions and understanding the cleavages I wonder what percent of Americans even know the differences between she is in sydney's.

509

01:21:39.690 --> 01:21:40.440

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: yeah I.

510

01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:41.010

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: don't know.

511

01:21:42.030 --> 01:21:49.020

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: yeah which is like me it's just yeah the cleavage is are enormous as as we've discussed, you know in this conversation like.

512

01:21:49.350 --> 01:21:58.470

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: So many incredible cleavages in this in this US based population and then, when we think about our foreign policy and sort of the groups, with which we.

513

01:21:58.860 --> 01:22:14.760

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: That are that are stealing abroad, at the moment no one's talking about Indonesia, no one no one's having a discussion about Indonesia, no one cares that's not happening we're talking about certain we're talking about Iran, you know we're talking about Saudi Arabia we're talking about.

514

01:22:16.080 --> 01:22:21.750

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Syria we're talking about mitt the Middle East we're talking about.

515

01:22:23.550 --> 01:22:27.510

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: A very distinct population, and I think the fact that the effects of like.

516

01:22:29.400 --> 01:22:45.180

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: conflict with these these entities can spill over to the experiences and livelihoods of people who have no connection or origin, there is is really disconcerting, and like important for us to.

517

01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:51.840

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: To to realize that you know people are not aware of the cleavages and these conflicts.

518

01:22:53.310 --> 01:22:55.440

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, monitoring, you have your hands up again.

519

01:22:59.220 --> 01:23:00.240

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: can't hear you.

520

01:23:03.210 --> 01:23:13.440

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: yeah Thank you, I wanted to go back to the discussion of other ring and rationalization just because I think that that the the Muslim case is really rich for.

521

01:23:13.830 --> 01:23:21.270

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: Not for trying to definitively answer like how are Muslims racialized or Where do they fall on the white black binary.

522

01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:31.740

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: But for how these processes happen and how, when where why and how certain kinds of different speeds says matter I mean i'm not sure about this.

523

01:23:31.980 --> 01:23:37.320

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: You know other ring happens all the time, the psychological literature would would tell us that.

524

01:23:37.530 --> 01:23:45.420

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: We create other shows up with creating an us and them right now we're part of CSI am we're part of international scholars and other people aren't.

525

01:23:45.630 --> 01:23:56.760

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: We do it contextually we do it in small ways we do it in big ways I think you're really interested in the societal level right how as a society to do we create some kind of other.

526

01:23:57.090 --> 01:24:00.600

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: That has some kind of stability under duration over time.

527

01:24:01.320 --> 01:24:10.770

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: But but, but the Muslim experience shows us like it isn't fixed and stable, it does depend on all of these factors you've been talking about.

528

01:24:11.100 --> 01:24:25.410

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: And, and I would argue that does become racialized insofar as people presume you can somehow see or mark or see it as biological or or internal or fixed in some way.

529

01:24:27.000 --> 01:24:45.960

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: In but all kinds of differences can be made to make a difference, they aren't all When are they when are certain differences used to make a difference and how do people experience that processing so that's what I think is really interesting that's what I think your work can help illuminate.

530

01:24:48.030 --> 01:24:53.880

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: And, and I, and I am interested in addition to just the practices like take putting on are taking off the job.

531

01:24:54.120 --> 01:25:11.370

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: His job or going to mosque or not there's also more subtle practices that shape how one oriented to the world, or how you engage with people and school and Baba and that might not be as visible, but it may help mark people as other or not.

532

01:25:12.720 --> 01:25:16.920

Marjorie Faulstich Orellana, UCLA: So it's complex and that's what makes it so rich.

533

01:25:19.290 --> 01:25:24.630

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: I wanted to add just one more thing, which is that some of my other work has found that in the wake of the.

534

01:25:25.800 --> 01:25:35.820

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: election campaign in 2016 after you know major campaign events that targeted the first the targeted Muslims in the second the election, we actually saw.

535

01:25:38.640 --> 01:25:40.410

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: A visible.

536

01:25:41.850 --> 01:25:49.200

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Online discourse on on Twitter among the Muslim population, so we were able to see that there was between a 10 to 20% drop.

537

01:25:50.640 --> 01:26:04.740

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: In in posts and visibility, you know just from a very macro level that was never regained throughout throughout the campaign and happen at two different time points so something to think about right that, as you said, these are.

538

01:26:06.030 --> 01:26:10.740

Nazita Lajevardi, Michigan State University: Not fixed they're not stable and they're manifesting in different ways, I appreciate that very much.

539

01:26:11.160 --> 01:26:25.560

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay well we're just about come to the end of our time, so I want to thank and zito for terrific presentation for David for a wonderful stimulating comment and everybody in the audience for exchanging with us whether it's been I think very productive.

540

01:26:26.070 --> 01:26:34.740

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: session, I want to remind you, we will meet again next Friday same time same place, but for two hours for the emerging immigration.

541

01:26:35.580 --> 01:26:47.250

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: scholars workshop so without further ado thanks everyone have a great week and safe and healthy week and looking forward to seeing you next Friday and the zito we will connect, on the other, link, I sent you on.

542

01:26:47.910 --> 01:26:48.630

Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Thanks everyone.

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