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UCLA IT (Alex): Okay, yeah, that's it.
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Okay.
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ROGER WALDINGER: You're going to click
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UCLA IT (Alex): Yeah, you can start webinar anytime
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay. All right. Hello, everybody. I am Roger waldinger I'm director of the
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UCLA IT (Alex): Roger can click Start over.
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UCLA IT (Alex): Start at the top. Yeah.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, great. Alright. Hello, everybody. I am Roger waldinger I'm director of the Center for the Study of international study
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ROGER WALDINGER: Sorry, I'm Director for the Center for the Study of international migration and I'm welcome delighted to welcome you to today's inaugural session of migration matters connecting to a world of movement.
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ROGER WALDINGER: As you may know, in cooperation with a friends and colleagues at the UC San Diego center for comparative immigration studies.
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ROGER WALDINGER: We sponsor a set of weekly talks on recent books on migration, which we held on Fridays at noon.
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ROGER WALDINGER: However, given the many dimensions of the migration phenomenon we have thought that there is a need for a forum that would shed light on a range of important immigration Issues and Controversies
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ROGER WALDINGER: That are not getting the attention that they need. And so for that reason we have kicked off this new series.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Migration matters, and we're beginning with a session on refugees fleeing ethnic violence in the African state of Cameroon and their search for asylum in the United States.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And for inside we have the very good fortune of being able to turn to two very knowledgeable commentators Dr Kevin jumbo and Sasha Novus
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ROGER WALDINGER: Kevin is a Cameroonian scientist and adjunct professor at the UCLA Institute of the environment and sustainability and Africa director at the Center for Tropical Research the Congo based Institute.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Sasha is a staff attorney with a local level by national nonprofit organization that offers free legal services to asylum seekers and deportees
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ROGER WALDINGER: And it was represented multiple clients from Cameroon and there were asylum cases before the immigration court.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And so I'm going to start off with a conversation with Kevin and Sasha, after which we will hear from to a Cameroonian refugees who have successfully one asylum and then we'll open up for discussion.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Please send me comments via the chat or you can use the raise hand function on the Q AMP. A. So why don't we begin with
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ROGER WALDINGER: Kevin and Kevin I'm wondering whether you could please provide us with some background on the circumstances that have led Cameroonians to flee their home and to seek refuge in the United States.
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Kevin Njabo: Or. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Sasha and
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Kevin Njabo: It's very interesting to see the questions you're asking. And it's not just Koreans fleeing to come to the United States. It's mostly people from developing countries.
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Kevin Njabo: Coming to live the American dream. So what is the first thing that's really pushing people to come over, I sort of economic refugees will come in for economic reasons.
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Kevin Njabo: People come in because they try to put a roof over their heads, people come here because they want to cloak themselves. They want to just get a better life. That is what is really pushing them out and because when they leave. Most people live in those countries those from Cameron leave
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Kevin Njabo: Less than $1 a day. So the live really below the poverty line. So, that is what that is really the main factor is pushing people out
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ROGER WALDINGER: But could you talk a little bit about specifics of Cameroon and the and the conflicts that have emerged there and how those are affecting people, especially in the Anglophone states.
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Kevin Njabo: Yeah, unfortunately did. Now we have more reasons why people are fleeing from Cameron because of last four years we've been experiencing a crisis and the under from region of the country so
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Kevin Njabo: If you go back to the history of Cameron. Like, come on. Okay, there were two separate entities that came together in 1961 to form a Union and to forgive one country, but the majority of the people were from FRENCH SPEAKING KOREAN
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ROGER WALDINGER: So at 20% kills me. Maybe you could go a little further back and go to the German colonization and then the formation of the mandate, so people understand really what the origins of this conflict is
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Kevin Njabo: Yeah, Italy to for you so much bigger come to when the Germans came and you can even go back to the Portuguese that described to
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Kevin Njabo: reuse those cameras that look the country of the product. The contract of problems when they find the problems in the delivery and discovery company.
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Kevin Njabo: That the Germans came in as the Germans came before the First World War, and also john colony called Cameron with a key at a time.
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Kevin Njabo: So it was a bigger country after the Germans lost the First World War, the continental became a trust territory of the United Nations.
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Kevin Njabo: So at it. So then it was split into two so 20% was given over to the British to be rude as part of Nigeria.
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Kevin Njabo: And 80% of the country was given to the French so then do a to process territories. So in 1961 countries were gaining independence.
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Kevin Njabo: Defense part of the come together independence and become the Republic of Congo. The 1960s first of June of 1960 that the French given penance at the time.
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Kevin Njabo: The southern conference, they were disheartened combos and in not in terms of bridges third to the 20% of the land.
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Kevin Njabo: So they were given that option to either join Nigeria for to get independence or to join the cavalry to get independent. So there's two options 50% half of it not in congress opted to Nigeria.
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Kevin Njabo: Where the sound comes up to, to join the Republic of Cameroon.
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Kevin Njabo: So the path did not come and join Nigeria and it seems to be part of Nigeria, the solid Cameron's joined the Republic of Cameron and they've been since the United Republic of Congo.
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Kevin Njabo: Then in 1972 at a time when, when they join camera. It was a federal republic. So there were two states that came together.
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Kevin Njabo: So in 1972 then we had this Fernando and the unification to form the United Republic of camera. So since then.
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Kevin Njabo: The angle phones have always been playing Grohl second fiddle in most of the activities of the state. So that tension that
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Kevin Njabo: That phenomenon of the Android phones always coming in second for every state activity not given access to all the priorities that the state offers to them getting the least developed
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Kevin Njabo: Funds for development Christ and then the integration of different different system or trying to assimilate the Francophone system into the region.
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Kevin Njabo: It has bought over the years and came out as an explosion. Four years ago, when the lawyers and the teachers decided that
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Kevin Njabo: Look, we need our own identity. We want to make sure that what we inherited from religious disrespected, we have an Anglo Saxon system we have the, the law that would practice should be the common law, the law that if
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Kevin Njabo: If the Francophone to the French inconvenience practices differential. So they wanted that identity identified so those that is really what Kickstarter this crisis.
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Kevin Njabo: By the government instead of listening to the quietly answer. Okay, this, this is what has been going on for so many years.
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Kevin Njabo: Let us try to see let us try to see how it can properly together, the government came in with a heavy, heavy hand.
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Kevin Njabo: Instead of talking to the teachers and the lawyers, the address to the leaders.
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Kevin Njabo: And so it boiled down to a crisis. I'm sorry, the younger people, because there was no other outlet for them to be talking to the government and the government had a very strong hand using the military.
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Kevin Njabo: They had to use the had to pick up arms and so on the Amazon, I became an armed conflict between the government and for the last four years we've been seeing a
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Kevin Njabo: Lot of killings and it has gone into a stage where the killings on both sides, the government or expecting this simple rules on human rights.
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Kevin Njabo: Now disabilities themselves also respecting human right. So we need to come back to make sure people really
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Kevin Njabo: Talk as p as civilians and civil people to understand really what is going on this so much bitterness on both sides so that it is now pushed to push the whole thing to extreme
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Kevin Njabo: So, so many people are fleeing out running out. So you've seen thousands of them running through us. I'm gonna, we're going to talk about how the coming year. But getting through Mexico. It's really not an easy ride for them. So it's very difficult.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And just, again, by way of background, what, what has been the role of the United States government in
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Kevin Njabo: The United States government in general as a government talks on the government. So the United States government would ask, we always consult with the government of Cameron.
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Kevin Njabo: And asked, what is going on. The Netherlands Government, because the structure is belong there they were. They were economies of the French and the British and mostly defines
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Kevin Njabo: The United States government would always aligned with what the French government tells me what's going on.
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Kevin Njabo: So, so the United States government has been trying to be very neutral to see to try to talk to both parties but have been pushing the United Nations to really lead the case and then United States is going to follow.
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Kevin Njabo: But the United States government is also accumulating a lot of the separatists, a lot of the people. Common. So, and they are given them that platform to be able to voice out your feelings and the frustrations.
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Kevin Njabo: So that again. It's not worth taking by the government of Canada because
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Kevin Njabo: The, the impression is the platform. The United States government is giving is foiling the is putting fear on the crisis and Kimmy and more killing so
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Kevin Njabo: It's something that gets its really thin line and very critical to discuss
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Kevin Njabo: And it depends on how you look at it, that if you want to be neutral as much as possible.
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Kevin Njabo: You need to really look at both sides. What is the feeling. How do we express ourselves is this the best way of doing it is the US government really handling the which was to handle it.
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Kevin Njabo: So that are just so many different on answer questions that we we don't know yet, but we had congresswoman current bass visit the country.
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Kevin Njabo: She tried to visit in office hours, but she couldn't get it because of security reasons.
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Kevin Njabo: We've had the US ambassadors come out and say this is really what we think. And this is what should be implemented.
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Kevin Njabo: So it's been hash on both sides, was the US government, the ambassador's is something that is favorable to the government. The government allows that and promotes that as this is what he was saying.
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Kevin Njabo: Was the US government is something that's against is the government, the separate is now calling and say this is what it is and government is saying, so it is it's kind of very tricky.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Let me just another background question, so what what in the Anglophone states, what is the what is the goal of the political leaders, is it autonomy or is it a shepherd state.
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Kevin Njabo: We don't know what the political leaders are because of the just so many different factions. So, but we we know that our major groups.
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Kevin Njabo: That are those who really want a tiny that are those who want to get federalism. There are those who work with government will to think, yes, where
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Kevin Njabo: We could walk as a decentralized state. So it depends on who you're talking to. And what factually below that. Did I just so many things coming out. So we don't know yet. I see. So
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ROGER WALDINGER: Could you tell us them a little bit about the journey. I mean, Cameron is far away from the United States, how do people get here.
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Kevin Njabo: Um,
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ROGER WALDINGER: How do they leave, I suppose. What are the one of the roots of escape. And then how do they make it all the way to the US border.
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Kevin Njabo: It is not there is there's no distinction getting out of the country, you can get walk in another country as much as you want, there's not
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ROGER WALDINGER: Only that
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Kevin Njabo: But the thing is getting out and going through other countries, those who come, those were lucky enough to get to the embassy in yonder and get a visa will fly to Europe on Friday. Yes, that's that's that's that's easiest route. If you, if you're lucky, and the the embassy will always
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Kevin Njabo: Receive people were requesting visit. But, you know, the US government to have immigration policies, you need to meet certain standards in order to have a visa and be and be received by the US, YOU KNOW, THE AIRPORT.
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Kevin Njabo: Most people don't meet those requirements or they know that they manage lip demanded a visa. So what it does tend to do is there on out.
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Kevin Njabo: One, there are a lot of them go to Nigeria, or most of them go through, not an Africa, but it's a huge route when local transportation through Lauren Africa until you get into the intro
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Kevin Njabo: from Morocco is going to Libya to live in a very, very difficult.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Terrain
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Kevin Njabo: Going across the Sahara Desert. It takes months just go through that route. And there are cartels on the way that
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Kevin Njabo: They will take money from you and I going to show you how to do it. But again, they're not going to go away and stuff. So once they get into that route, they could get right up to the
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Kevin Njabo: Board of the military agency and across familiar with the Mediterranean Sea into Europe. So that's one way you can get to it through their. The other way to
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Kevin Njabo: Muslim, Muslim flight to South America.
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Kevin Njabo: If you, if you realize, Singapore is one of those countries where people from coming don't need a visa to go to Singapore. One of the reasons being that
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Kevin Njabo: In the early 1960s in the early 1970s when they had the economic crisis, Singapore, at the time had economic problems.
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Kevin Njabo: You would be surprised that Cameron government gave money to Singapore to have them at a time.
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Kevin Njabo: So, and when Singapore wanted to pay back the Kenyan government forgive those loans that are we forgive you can take money so interest is is Erica.
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Kevin Njabo: But because of that the the government of Singapore said thank you for that. And for that reason, people from communities, not in visa, so come to Singapore.
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Kevin Njabo: So it's an open ground so people can fly into Singapore easily. So some people can go out of the country to that route or what through South America.
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Kevin Njabo: And wants to get into South America, didn't have to take the leap goodbye wrote on to to to to to the borders on to the get to Mexico, you can cross drew from South America easily once they get to the borders of Mexico identified in asylum and get into the country.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay. Terrific. So thank you very much. And I think that provides a perfect bridge now to Sasha, so
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ROGER WALDINGER: Obviously social asylum has become much more difficult under the Trump administration over the past four years.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And could you tell us something. I mean, Kevin has just described the journey to Mexico. Can you tell us something about the experience both
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ROGER WALDINGER: At the you Adam southern border of Mexico, and then at the US Mexico border. What is your experience of Cameroonian asylum seekers, as they try to make their way up through the Americans to the United States.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'd be happy to talk about that. I'll start off by saying I'm a lot of people that we've worked with
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Have to they are able to get a visa maybe to Ecuador, but then the travel by land, all the way up.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Through the Americas to Mexico. So even that portion of the journey can be very harrowing very difficult
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: We actually have, as you mentioned, some people on the call, who have been through that experience, you might be willing to talk more about it.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And in Mexico. It is pretty common for migraines and especially African asylum seekers to actually be detained starting in top of Chula there has been pressure on the Mexican government from the US side to
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Process asylum seekers who are heading to the US in a certain way. So folks might end up in camps for up to six months and then sometimes they're able to get a pass to travel north to the border with the US.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: So before coven there was a process by which people could apply for asylum at the border. Now the Trump administration made that process much more difficult than it was supposed to be.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There is a right under US law under international law to present yourself at the Center for asylum, it is illegal. Right.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There has been rhetoric saying that's illegal, but it is actually illegal right that people have, but what
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: The Border Patrol has been doing is actually limiting the number of people who can get across every day. So even once people arrive, all the way at the port of entry.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And they are given a number and put on a list and it's essentially a waiting list just to be able to present their case to a border official
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: A US border official that list. Our position is that that list is illegal. It shouldn't exist.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: The governments of Mexico and the US sort of have disavowed this list and said that they're not necessarily endorsing it and the list itself is run by migrants, but
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There's litigation around that list and some asylum seekers from Africa and other black migrants.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: receive additional discrimination, like they're forced to pay a fee to even get on that waiting list so
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There are lots of problems with the list and now with Kobe. The administration has use that as an excuse to close the border completely. So there aren't even new names getting put on that list and people aren't able to cross.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: But before that, that was the process. So people would be stuck into you want to for maybe six months, waiting for their number to be called
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Once their number is called they will get an interview with a US government official and be able to present sort of a preliminary case for their asylum, it's a quick interview.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And then if they pass that then they would come into the US but they would actually be detained.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: People who were arriving at the border is subject to what's called mandatory detention. So they're in immigration detention.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Ending their proceedings. And just to clarify, that's the procedure for people who are like I said traveling by land that doesn't apply to the people who are able to get a visa and enter the US that way that process would occur outside of detention and you can also apply for asylum.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Could you tell us a little bit about some of the asylum cases that you've handled.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yeah, so I've represented some asylum seekers who were from Cameroon, who were Anglophones and had experienced discrimination violence torture.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Based on that identity and being accused of being separatists fighters.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And like I said, Those are people who then traveled by land up through the US and were detained here in Los Angeles and Adelanto. It's one of the largest detention centers in the US and our organization represents many individuals who are detained in Adelanto
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: For their application you're applying for asylum, you're actually applying for three forms of protection. There's a silent withholding of removal
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: protection under the Convention against Torture but asylum is the only status that out. I would actually allow you a path to a green card and to be able to bring your family members to the US if they're also abroad.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: So I represented those individuals from the beginning of their case until one their case and were able to be released from detention and have a siloed which is
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Really exciting because like I said, if you have the full asylum, you can eventually get a green card. You can work you can bring family members across
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ROGER WALDINGER: And so obviously a crucial component of an asylum case is demonstration of persecution. But how do you prove that
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ROGER WALDINGER: Especially given the fact that
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ROGER WALDINGER: People have to flee from from they have to flee danger from one moment to the next. So how do you assemble the documentation needed to convincingly demonstrate the causes of their flight.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That's such a great question. I'm glad you asked. So, proving
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: A case is very difficult for a number of reasons. First of all, you have to show persecution, on account of a specific ground. So it's only race, religion,
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion. So you have to first meet that threshold that your case qualifies for asylum.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: under US law in terms of actually providing evidence. It's very challenging for people who have had to flee. People often arrive without very much documentation or if they have documentation.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Once they're in detention ice will actually sees all their property and they will keep it. And sometimes they won't even have access
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: To any of those documents until they are released. So that would be either on bond or if their cases over
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Additionally, you know, people may have family members that could provide affidavits, which is very helpful and convincing in court.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: But those family members may also be in hiding it can be very dangerous for them to be communicating and sending documents.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And if someone does send documents if they're not in English, they have to be translated. They have to be, you know, signed a notarized and you have to prove chain of custody to show that the documents are valid.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That's going to be very difficult. And again, for people who are detained.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: They are going to have limited access to phones, they will not always have an attorney, so that those present additional challenges, unless you have someone on the US side, who's helping facilitate
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That can be really hard. In addition to that kind of evidence, you would present a declaration, so sort of your own version of the story and then country conditions. So articles documenting what happened.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And that can verify some of the historical events that you might be describing and your personal story. And again, all of that is very difficult without additional help, especially for people who are detained know you know
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ROGER WALDINGER: The US government itself has denounced human rights violations in Cameroon. So, in that, like, how does it manage to deny request for asylum, given the fact it's acknowledging that ongoing persecution is taking place.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yes. I mean, that's a great question. And some of the most compelling evidence that we always submit in every case is that US Department of State human rights report and
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: You know, other documents produced by US government agencies. But unfortunately, those are separate agencies. So it's the Department of Justice.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: adjudicating asylum claims and we've seen cases where, you know, the judge will read.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Our clients declaration and they will say, wow, I just can't believe it like this does not seem possible. And even though they're
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: You know documents showing that this is actually what's happened and documents produced by our own government showing that what the client is saying is true, I think.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: The adjudicators the government attorneys and the immigration judges sometimes still
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Don't believe it and they they also look for in consistencies. I mean, they will compare every statement. Someone has made even if it's at the border and informal interview.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And they will try to say that the person is not credible, which would also lead to the denial of their application even they have a valid fear yes now. Yeah.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Asylum have become more difficult to obtain over the past, even in the within the past year. I mean, in
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ROGER WALDINGER: Asylum was granted to 570 Cameroonians with a 98 denials, but this year, not yet finished with almost 400 and denials for 700 approvals. So that's a huge change. What do you think it is accounting for this. What is the Trump administration doing to make
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ROGER WALDINGER: Accept and so much more difficult.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: I mean, I would honestly say what are they not doing the Trump administration has. I mean, it's been part of their agenda very
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: You know overtly has been to reduce the number of asylum seekers here in the US, they have, I would say system systematically dismantled asylum, as we know it. And since the day Trump took office, and some of these changes, honestly, might be kind of hard to undo because they are now.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Law, but there's been so there's been a lot of changes and a lot of litigation kind of pushing back some of the major changes were
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: They instituted a ban on asylum. So for people who pass through other countries on the way to the US and you applied for asylum and a third country and received a denial
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: You would not be eligible for asylum in the US, you would only be eligible for a lesser form of protection called
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Was holding a removal or protection under Convention against Torture which like I said it's not actually a path to a green card.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: So that luckily that ban was challenged with litigation and was vacated recently. So we were able to reopen some cases and have people get asylum, who would have otherwise qualified
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Like I mentioned, there's been the metering at the border just not letting people physically cross through to the US to present their asylum case, even though they have the right to do so under law.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There has been a unilateral changes made to asylum law by the Attorney General, the Attorney General has the ability to rewrite asylum.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: In immigration law just by issuing a new decision. So they've eliminated. Many of the grounds to asylum actually mostly for individuals from Central America, such as gang based claims domestic violence claims. So those are much more difficult, if not impossible now.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: They also instituted this doesn't apply to African asylum seekers, but they instituted the, what's called the migrant protection protocols. We call it the migrant persecution protocols.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Which is the program where an individual seeking asylum in the US actually have to wait in Mexico for their case.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: To be completed and a lot of times those individuals will experience, you know, violence, kidnapping, terrible things in Mexico. They don't have somewhere to live there, aren't you know shelter setup.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: For these individuals and they have trouble crossing for their hearing. So there's all kinds of barriers that have been put in place that make it extremely, extremely difficult for people
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And I'll just say really briefly. One of the other main challenges is that there's no right to a paid immigration attorney in immigration court.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: So unlike the criminal defense system where everybody who can't afford an attorney will get one.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Provided by the government. That's not true in immigration court. Many people are under represented that makes a huge difference in if someone can win the case, just because the law is so complicated. And like I said, getting documents and all of that.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And another factor is honestly so much discretion is in the hands of judges. So where you present your case is going to have a big outcome on
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Whether or not you went and, like, for example, Atlanta immigration court is notorious for having the lowest denied or the lowest grant rate for asylum cases it's
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Point 9% to 8% depending on the judge compared to like a 30 to 40% national average. So there's lots of factors. But yes, it's been especially bad this year. Okay, so
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ROGER WALDINGER: Thank you so much. So now,
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ROGER WALDINGER: I'm sure you had mentioned that to hear former clients would be available, but I don't see them on the list of participants. Is it possible that there are two people who are on the phone and I'm going to, I'm not certain, who you are. But I'm giving you
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ROGER WALDINGER: I'm giving you permission to talk, perhaps
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ROGER WALDINGER: So,
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ROGER WALDINGER: I don't know. What do you want to
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Kevin Njabo: YEAH, THAT IS SOMEONE ONLINE.
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Kevin Njabo: Three offices, my friend.
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Kevin Njabo: From Columbus trying to join.
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1240****319: Them. It's really hear you on the
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Line, I believe they are on the phone. They were having trouble.
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1240****319: Yeah, just give them. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me.
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1240****319: Hello.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yes.
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1240****319: I can hear you better. Can you hear me.
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1240****319: Yes.
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Kevin Njabo: We can hear you now. Oh.
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1240****319: I was having difficulties enjoy it. But finally, I joined into a happy to meet you guys. And just cause cause in the situation camera very happy.
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1240****319: Happy but at Coursera involve also to see how these classes capital resolve. So it's something that is really, really important to me because
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1240****319: The affecting me even though I'm relieved from detention bass effectively because the people back home. I see so often. As a result of this crisis, even those that are here.
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1240****319: And people I was reading some of them are being deported back to cover on. So I heard such I was talking about the changes that are made by the corner administration, so
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1240****319: Right now they're ready to require some of them are steam today's you they don't know when I
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1240****319: Was going to happen next, because right now the various policies in place.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Yes, we hear
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We hear
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We hear you.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, I don't know the one, what has happened.
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Kevin Njabo: Look like we lost him. Yeah.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Let me, I think, uh, somebody else. Let me see what
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ROGER WALDINGER: All right, what while we're waiting, let me. We do have a question. Let me, let me start with that question and then we can, and I know it will shift to the question and answer.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Portion of our session. So anyone who wants to send me a question can do so via the chat or via raising your hands. So the first question I guess is for for you Kevin
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ROGER WALDINGER: And that is how does the exodus of Anglophone Cameroonians merge with or diverge from the exodus of Francophone Cameroonians
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Kevin Njabo: Yeah, I think that is really tricky question. That's where shall service center croc about and that's where somebody George's refuse this assignment document because look for consistency of those statements.
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Kevin Njabo: We talked about the Anglophone crisis, the crisis affects Anglophones only
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Kevin Njabo: But interestingly, a lot of people from Francophone. Come on, take advantage of that Christ and also apply for asylum and Sarah from I'm from Canada. So the judges, try to look for that consistency. How are you affected.
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Kevin Njabo: Is it something that is a few directly. And so by coming in. When you're not really so you need to prove to that George that you are
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Kevin Njabo: directly affected and you have an Anglophone come around to it in a rush for granted asylum, so there is this mass exodus of Francophones to
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Kevin Njabo: And initially, V realized when I said people flee the country. The white people fleas because of economic need. So most of them economic refugees.
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Kevin Njabo: They are leaving because they're looking for better standards. They're looking for greener pastures. They just want a better life for themselves. So, but
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Kevin Njabo: In in going through that process. A lot of people take advantage of different crisis at hand and make a story to fit the
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Kevin Njabo: Narrative to make them get the SLM documents. So the judges themselves are also very carefully. Just make sure that that is consistency and really your story and you are really suffering or your live from the region you see you
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Kevin Njabo: Before you're giving them access to the asylum, so you can see. But most of the bronco forums like like you see in most developing countries people flip economic reasons. They just want a better life for themselves.
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1240****319: Okay, so question I'll shut up. Yes. Hi. Yeah.
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1240****319: There was a bit. I don't know what happened. So
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1240****319: I'm back into the meeting. Okay.
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ROGER WALDINGER: You want to continue
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1240****319: Moments. Yeah. Yeah. Why would you for a moment, like I was saying so.
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1240****319: I was talking with Sasha I think there was a day I was saying I was talking about my forestation out you guys when you guys were talking about what they told my decision. I don't know what the US has done.
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1240****319: The US voted in level of the independent or Saudi government because it was being guided by resolution 16 08 of the UN General Assembly.
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1240****319: So in the US that knows everything that's going on there. But in fact it was 64 against Trinity, it will
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1240****319: Allow to be recovered. But again, the independent of the people of South uncovered. So I thought you were talking about say pressure. What is about a pushes the body restoration independent that was being granted.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, you've got in the
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1240****319: Independent has already been granted you know something asap because I did not achieve that our government is trying to push that the pressure. There's no delay the pressure got independent. We've got the by the end of the year they're asked me.
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1240****319: What I
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1240****319: Yeah, we need to be careful when you say
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Kevin Njabo: Because one of the things which when we try as
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Kevin Njabo: You didn't put passion into what you say. When you say independence was the independence was a conditional independence. Independence by joining Cameron only benefit by joining Nigeria, so have not in Cameroon.
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Kevin Njabo: achieved independence by joining not in Nigeria. So that part of nigeria today did not uncommon that southern Canada was achieved independence by joining letter provision cameras.
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Kevin Njabo: So that is that. So you can restart something that was not an existent at the time. So let's not put passion into it and go with narratives on sees as if it's
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Kevin Njabo: It's a water. Some extent to which is not it, just as a as an identity of people Southern Koreans. The one identity is an identity crisis they want to be.
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Kevin Njabo: Recognized
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Kevin Njabo: As a people. So we, that is, what should we address and the US government as much as possible is trying to be neutral to address the issue.
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Kevin Njabo: Because the the independence was acquired by Southern communities joining, let it be covered under according October 119 61
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Kevin Njabo: Were not uncommon achieved independence by joining not in Cameron. So the, the British can rooms with southern cameras and not incumbents.
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Kevin Njabo: So they're not in cameras are not complaining at all there because a part of Nigeria. Now the sudden cameras at once, complaining because they'll have been treated world as part of that union.
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Kevin Njabo: So that is the cases that has sort of as part of that my treatment of foreign Koreans were joined via the Republic of Congo in 1961. So that's the issue. Okay, great.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Alright, so let's try
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1240****319: Go ahead.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Well, I think what let's let's wait. Let's, um,
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ROGER WALDINGER: Let's return let's bring in some other participants from the audience. And then I will come back to you. So
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, we have a question for Sasha.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And do you think that immigration judges have seen an increase in Cameroonian asylum cases.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Hasn't been a shift and but as I changed. I've seen an increase
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ROGER WALDINGER: Has there been a shift in how they adjudicate
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1240****319: Them, for instance.
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ROGER WALDINGER: As they have heard the same stories might they have
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ROGER WALDINGER: Become less open or more
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ROGER WALDINGER: skeptical of the particularity your uniqueness of individual claims.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That's a great question. Um, I would say, again, a lot of that is going to depend
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: On
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Digital giants. I
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Think that there are judges who are, you know, just on average, more likely to believe in grant asylum applications and others that are
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Kind of set on denying
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1240****319: And we can see that in the numbers it's
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Very carefully tracked and so in our experience some of these Cameroonian asylum cases are more likely to be granted just because
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: They are so well documented. I would say in general that plays in the clients favor when there's a lot of documentation. But you do then have to comb through you know all of the documents and make sure that it lines up with the clients memory of the situation and
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Just making sure as a representative that all of the details, line up in a way that the judge will agree with and believe their story. But I would say in general, it's more helpful to have more documented.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay.
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ROGER WALDINGER: So now a question from Filipino for perhaps to both of you. Is there any organization in the Cameroon's
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ROGER WALDINGER: That provide support to return to or deported persons and I guess I'll add my own question to that and and that is
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ROGER WALDINGER: What, what about organizations have Cameroonian American. So what role are they playing in this in this crisis and and also what opportunities or what what options might be available to to other persons to support Cameroonians in the search for asylum.
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Kevin Njabo: Okay I. There are lots of organizations which have that try as much as possible to mediate
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Kevin Njabo: A bit people have been deported from the US. It's very difficult for GM civil societies to to to get involved because we want you to put your hand it over to the government.
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Kevin Njabo: And so that it becomes a government problem. So, it is the US government deporting convenience and handing handing them over to the government of camera.
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Kevin Njabo: So all the time. So a lot of pressure groups trance Motorsports as possible to identify
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Kevin Njabo: What is the parties where it coming in. And so, so this is trying to get a support system to see how you can get him out of detention, because once you reported it
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Kevin Njabo: Most in most cases, Dr. So, and so people try as much as opposed to what ways can we help in getting this will be supported.
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Kevin Njabo: And unfortunately if people have been deported because it made cases against the government
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Kevin Njabo: When you're signing for assigning muscles and selling papers don't speak very well about the government. And if you're handed over to the same government when you've written some so many bad things about the government it
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Kevin Njabo: Might it might not be very, very nice environment to be in. So unfortunately, so we feel so bad if somebody is deported. After making such a case against the government and what might happen to them.
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Kevin Njabo: So the more people speak about in the pressure group then we just hope that those guys will be deported and are going to be tortured.
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Kevin Njabo: But the within the Korean American community. There are a lot of organizations.
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Kevin Njabo: Before we had the CMC that was before they come from crisis started at CMC has been there, which is a southern National Council changes to have people who can be done as much as possible.
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Kevin Njabo: So bring them in and get them integrated into the system. Now with the crisis, so many different groups have come out. So it's just a huge number. So,
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Kevin Njabo: You don't know which one is authentic, you don't know which one is that there are some factions which people generally consider them as a separate is they have a very
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Kevin Njabo: Aggressive and yeah in what they say the to raise money. So, some of them raise money to buy and sell them raise money to support. So, there again, it's, it's, it's very tricky to really know
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Kevin Njabo: Who is authentic, because even between the Cameroonian organizations. There's so much infighting between them.
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Kevin Njabo: So people go, each of each other. So you don't know if I am I supporting this group. I'm not sure if I'm supporting the group I'm sending the font is going to is going to get, get back to the destination.
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Kevin Njabo: That we don't know, and then it depends on who you're talking to, on how you want to support them. So if they could be could be that unity of the different factions within the company and American community right here in the US.
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Kevin Njabo: Coming out in the consensus, so I'm speaking with one voice and telling people that this is what we need to do to help
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1240****319: Even the government of were able to help to develop
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Kevin Njabo: I don't think that is really easy. It's very, very complicated, even as a Cameroonian year when I look at
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Kevin Njabo: It. I don't really know.
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Kevin Njabo: What am I going to support if we really want to
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1240****319: Do humanitarian work on the ground that
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Kevin Njabo: In Nigeria, we have things like the foundation
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Kevin Njabo: Gone right into Nigeria to look at the refrigerator so
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Kevin Njabo: When we send files to
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1240****319: Die foundation
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Kevin Njabo: It is easier that we know it is good to hit the refugees in Nigeria.
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Kevin Njabo: And within come around. There are also different civil societies which are headed mostly about what people call the moderates now.
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Kevin Njabo: The guys who really want to talk with both sides. Those are the easiest easier to go to guys but now looking at some people on one side look at them as triggers are on ones and looking at it, so it is it's kind of very complicated so that rule. It's
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Kevin Njabo: It's kind of tricky and somebody asked that when the people get deported. They locked up so 700 Koreans were to put up last year and present intention. We don't know like
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Kevin Njabo: Some of the new release some of that there are a lot of pressure groups that were pushed in we have. We know really. We also have lists of those would be deported people try to contact their families. Check on this, let people know where they are coming out some
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Kevin Njabo: Go back to the government and
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Kevin Njabo: 30 a cases to the government and government use them as like us window dressing said okay these are guys that came in the support system what putting the into the support system, but it depends again on the narrative on who's involved. So the stories are just so many
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ROGER WALDINGER: chefs have anything to add.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yeah, I mean I would just say, you know, people who come here seeking asylum are fleeing for their lives. So when those people get sent back
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: To their countries that can be very dangerous like Kevin mentioned
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: And I also would note that our government has been known to retaliate against individuals. So you might have heard about
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: For example, some Cameroonian asylum seekers were deported. Just a couple weeks ago and some of those people had actually spoken out about some of the abuses, they had experienced or witnessed
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: While in immigration detention, so it is believed that our government retaliated against those people by expediting their deportations as well. So it is a very alarming horrible situation.
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ROGER WALDINGER: OK.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And now a question from economy.
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ROGER WALDINGER: goober Michael to Sasha, on average, how long do asylum seekers wait until they get the decision and you have any sense of what what factors are associated with the longer or shorter. Wait.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I should explain. There's actually a few different processes by which people will seek asylum, so the cases that will
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Be resolved the most quickly are the ones when someone is in detention and they're actually presenting their case in court. So you have a few court dates, where you're just
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Doing preliminary matters filing documents with the judge and a final date where you would give testimony and the government attorney.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: From ice would also ask questions and then the judge might issue a decision that same day, those cases could be resolved as quickly as maybe six months.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: You also have people who aren't in detention, but are still fighting their case in court and those cases can take years just because the courts are very backlogged with coven the non detained immigration courts were closed for a long time and so
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Someone might be here for years.
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1240****319: Before they
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Decision, but they
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: would at least have access to a work permit after six months after their case has been pending six months and then you also have people who file what's called
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: affirmatively so they're not going to court. They're doing it.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: With
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Immigration Services and they came to the US a different
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Way, like a visitor's visa those cases also might take
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: A couple of years to be resolved, but they would not have to go to
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Court, they would meet with an asylum officer.
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1240****319: And do an interview.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And you will have a sense of whether the
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ROGER WALDINGER: Approval rates vary depending on whether
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ROGER WALDINGER: It's an affirmative or
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ROGER WALDINGER: Defensive asylum case.
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1240****319: That's a good question. I'm actually not
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Sure, I would say.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Like I said, what the immigration judges being so varied in their discretion that the
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1240****319: Cases that are in court, it's just
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: There are factors other factors that come into play and you get hired denier denial rates.
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1240****319: And there's also a process to appeal.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: If a case gets denied. And someone would not be able to get deported while their cases on appeal, so that could take some additional time like another year, for example.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay and here's a question from Andrew
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ROGER WALDINGER: Lee I think probably from Kevin, can you describe the role of migrant brokers in the migratory process of camera on how are these brokers perceived by migrants and their families.
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Kevin Njabo: Though that just integrate cartels. So the setup we take advantage of vulnerable people, unfortunately, and you get them all the way
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Kevin Njabo: Those going through this this hundred days that are those flying to equip and walking and getting over to the southern border of Mexico, so you
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Kevin Njabo: GUYS KNOW ALREADY WHAT THOSE PEOPLE NEED. And before you
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Kevin Njabo: Most people tend to leave. They organize themselves and migrant workers, tell them this is how much is going to cost you.
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Kevin Njabo: This is what you need at the package. So once you can put the package together and give them the money so they have in facilitating access to the Mexican border.
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Kevin Njabo: So that is what does my grandpa tells us what we tend to do. But unfortunately, some of them are also dishonest the walk with
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Kevin Njabo: Abundance. What are some of the way so that the sales people to get robbed SOME BRUISES ON again in collaboration with migrant worker. So you might be unlucky.
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Kevin Njabo: To meet the migrant broker, that is also a bandage. So he walks on what ways and make it a bit mad at me get to a Mexican border they disrupt you have everything that you got so migrant workers.
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Kevin Njabo: Best is just like yes middle men.
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Kevin Njabo: In everything that you get people taking advantage of vulnerable people just wanting to swap out every Monday. They happened and so
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, so now a question for Sasha from professional Rebecca moved the Lansing, so
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ROGER WALDINGER: What and she asked, what are the strategies that your organization is applying to ensure that political asylum seekers are separated from economic etc asylum seekers many political Cameroonian asylum seekers are not fortunate to make it as far as to the
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1240****319: Mexican border.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Those who do have sacrificed everything lucky to be alive. Certainly, there will be
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ROGER WALDINGER: Some mechanism to authenticate the most vulnerable asylum seekers and the system.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Yes, thank you. That's a great question. So we our organization has offices actually on both sides of the border. So we have a border Rights Project Based in Tijuana, Mexico, that's
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: assisting people who are arriving at the border and plan to seek asylum. And then we also have our offices in San Diego and Los Angeles where we assist people who are on this side.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: In order for someone to enter the United States based on their asylum claim they have to pass what's called a credible fear interview. So that's an initial screening process where it's not up to us. It's actually up to the US government
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1240****319: They will ask some questions about
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: The person's claim and see
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: If they qualify under US asylum law without having to present the whole case but basically giving an overview. It's possible that someone will have, you know, mixed
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Motivation for having left their country. So even if part of it is economic. They may also have another claim based on those protected grounds race, nationality particular social group religion.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Or political opinion. So whether we meet a client on this side of the border on the Mexican side, we would explain that. Those are the grounds for us asylum law which might be different from us island law in other countries. And then we speak to them about their story and
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: On the Mexican side of the border. We do help people.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Kind of after they tell us their story we explain which of those grounds, they might apply for if it really seems like someone might not qualify, we would basically just explain the law and
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Give them information about the process so that they can present their case in the way that is most likely to succeed in that credible fear interview, you wouldn't have an attorney, so they're
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Going to be going in on their own, but we do try to give people that information before they start the process and then once they are in the US, like I said, they would have already passed that interviews. So, and those are people that we see who do have what we see as meritorious claims.
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Kevin Njabo: Okay, I'm ready. I just want to add quickly that and just add what such as you said and what the, the guy on the phone was talking about.
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Kevin Njabo: When you're making your case for us judges don't come and teach them to draw the history they already know it. They know they know what the United Nations stands for
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Kevin Njabo: The I came, he was trying to cite resolution 16 or at the George knows it, and most the outcome of it.
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Kevin Njabo: You cannot tell the GA Rd America, the American government at the time, voted against that union. So that's what we're trying to establish
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Kevin Njabo: The American Government goes with the consensus of what do you let me just put it at the end. What was the outcome of that resolution, not just private vote.
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Kevin Njabo: So once you try making that case and you're trying to teach the Georgia. So it means you're making a case or something that doesn't exist in most cases just throw it out there for a lot of inconsistencies in your story.
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Kevin Njabo: We should stay away from such narratives and try to show on humanitarian grounds, how these crisis affecting you. And what is really making for your life.
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Kevin Njabo: Than coming year to teach American automakers judges what United Nation stands for and what resolutions were voted for. So those things are very, very
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1240****319: Important. So most of those cases o'clock.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, so we do have a few more.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Minutes. I don't know whether our caller on the phone wants to
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Briefly.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Leave a few comments and then we're coming to the end of our session.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Are you there.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, so I'm not. He's not able to to engage. So we have one last question I guess this is
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ROGER WALDINGER: This is for for Kevin from Cynthia mother Jonas controllers. What role does ethnicity or tribe play or their shared tribes are in Anglophone or Francophone Cameroon and is this related to the flight to the to do the exposure to persecution.
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Kevin Njabo: Oh yeah, it is. It's very critical. Come on in general has about 250 ethnic groups.
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Kevin Njabo: So it's a very, very diverse country the Anglophone Sunday Francophone on the microphones on Frank wants a different
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Kevin Njabo: On the language lines, but you're looking about tribes, then people from the northwest a closer to the people of the Western Regional wiper of the Southwest accrues to the south of the literal region. So, again, that is another big elephant in the room.
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Kevin Njabo: While we're trying to solve this angle from crisis as as Anglophones vs vs. If
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Kevin Njabo: There is also an internal consumption in Northwest and the Southwest where we don't think and we look at it at something that is variable locker. That's something unexplored easily so
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Kevin Njabo: Tribe really has a massive role to play in the so there are shaped lives within the different regions, but the ethnic the history history of the ethnic groups and we touch different regions of
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Kevin Njabo: The funk from comes down to do under for Cameron. So as much as possible because of this common culture of politics of based on language.
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Kevin Njabo: You will because the cameras were colonized our self serve as a trusted advisor, the British, we have this common heritage.
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Kevin Njabo: And the and the culture, the application of the law and the system that are incorporated things and things after the First World War, is this is what unite the anger forms as an entity and what brings in front of us as a as an entity.
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Kevin Njabo: But when you start going back and looking at the
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Kevin Njabo: Tribes then becomes a game. It's something that is silver tricky. So with that way. So there is a row
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, so we're coming to the end of our sessions Sasha. Do you have any last thoughts that you would like to leave our audience with
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: I'm just so grateful that you put this program together. Roger. And it's been really important to be able to talk about these issues and I know you mentioned earlier.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That people might want to help, at least here on the US side if anyone you know is interested in either donating or fundraising to help asylum seekers either here on the US side or on the other side of the border. I can drop a couple of links in the chat box, but we recommend donating
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: To the Haitian bridge alliance.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: That is an organization that serves black asylum.
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Seekers and they also have a fun to directly help
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Black asylum seekers who are currently stuck in
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1240****319: Mexico given
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: All of the policies, I mentioned earlier, there's also a freedom for immigrants and the other lump of
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Visitation
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Network that assist people who are currently
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Detained so I can drop a
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: link for that as well. And there's an organization that will provide
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Sasha Novis, Al Otro Lado: Free airplane flights to people who are released from detention for them to be reunited with their friends or family members who are in a different part of the US. So you have some airline miles that you're not using
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1240****319: You could also donate those to be used.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay and Kevin. Any last thoughts.
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Kevin Njabo: Yeah, thank you very much. And it's been very informative and we really feel the pain of most of these people running in and live in the country. It's a very tough situation.
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Kevin Njabo: I was in common in January this year as it was when was it a lot of travel, have not been able to travel things things come around things are generally this year.
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Kevin Njabo: But if not, if the if the flight and what the pain, the people are feeling so it's something that
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Kevin Njabo: We believe the US government is going to take that into into consideration. We know governments, talk to each other. The US government, talk to the government of Cameron.
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Kevin Njabo: They understand what is going on when the asylum seekers to also need to make sure the stories are very consistent
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Kevin Njabo: Yes. A lot of people take advantage of the crisis on asylum, we have a lot of Francophones to coming in and seeing the different regions. So the journey. So I was very careful and I said,
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Kevin Njabo: Once you speak very badly of the US government
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Kevin Njabo: The government retaliates when you speak bad of the common government they cannot go meditate, so that is diplomacy in seeking asylum you careful of what you say don't come and teach the judges job. What I need to do.
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Kevin Njabo: Just make sure you're not you're not coming to backfire systems for them. You're sticking your case. So the US government also looks for value. Once you're confident
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Kevin Njabo: We are seeking asylum interview as they look for what value you bring to the US. They don't just don't just hand over
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Kevin Njabo: Free food you as you're coming in because again, they tried to make sure it's a it's a government that protects is on what else
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Kevin Njabo: I'm trying to protect its own people so they can just open the borders for everybody just fly in and just see what they want.
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Kevin Njabo: So again, it's a thin line the way people talk and how people try to Mega cases. So we try as much as possible to advise
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Kevin Njabo: You have to be careful what you say you make sure your story is consistent. Make sure you're bringing value into this is integrating into and there is so much value in muscle is bought and to leave and what your authentic. In most cases, you're always got a silo.
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ROGER WALDINGER: Okay, well, terrific. Okay, so I'd like to thank both of you, Kevin jarboe adjunct professor at UCLA Institute of the environment and sustainability.
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ROGER WALDINGER: And Africa, Director of the Center for Tropical Research Congo Basin Institute and session of his staff attorney at a lot row lot of this has been a terrific.
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ROGER WALDINGER: An enlightening discussion. I'd like to thank everyone who joined us for this first effort, we will continue again, probably with a monthly event. Those of you who have
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ROGER WALDINGER: suggestions as to important immigration topics that we should address please feel free to get in touch with me. So thanks to everybody who joined us thanks especially to Sasha and to Kevin and have a good weekend happy and healthy holiday. Everyone okay bye bye
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Kevin Njabo: Thank you. Bye bye.
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1240****319: Bye bye.