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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Good afternoon and welcome to the Center for comparative immigration studies. My name is David Fitzgerald and together with our co host at the UCLA Center for the Study of international migration.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: We're happy that you've joined us for today's Friday migration book seminar series next week.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: At Friday at the same time we're going to be discussing the new book by Christina Rodriguez and Adam Cox, the President and immigration law with a comment by Hiroshi motor Maura
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: info on all the speakers and our weekly series are available on the websites of the two centers, but today we're delighted to have with us showboat
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: She is Associate Dean for equity. Sorry for diversity, equity, and inclusion and clinical professor of law at Penn State.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: We have also Ingrid eagerly who's Professor of Law at UCLA as a discussing and we're going to be discussing shovel lodges new book band immigration enforcement in the time of Trump
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: The plan today is that will hear about a 20 minute presentation by professor was a comment by Professor ugly. A quick response. And then we'll open things up to a Q AMP a
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: during the Q AMP a session, please just electronically raising your hand. Use the raise your hand function at the bottom of your screen. And I'll moderate that discussion. So as you know, if you've joined us before all of our sessions are recorded. They're available on
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: The web afterward. If you'd like to share them.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: But we could not have a more timely topic than today's discussion, and the waning days of the Trump administration looking forward to policy under new Biden administration so show about what can you tell us about immigration enforcement and the age of Trump
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Thank you so much for inviting me to be here. I'm honored and also excited to be delivering my first book talk in Biden Harris transition
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But in the book band. I really document. The story of immigration in the time of Trump and really for me how the story is told.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): to future generations is really going to matter 10 years from now, this will be a chapter in the history books and the documentation of the story.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Is one impetus, I had in writing it. I spoke to many different people in writing this book, including former agency had
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Dhaka recipients immigration attorneys on the front lines and my goal was to surface the emotion behind these policy changes explain the law and accessible language and offer concrete ideas for moving forward.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So I want to start with one chapter in my book that's called everyone is a priority.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): enforcement priorities really refer to a group of people that the government identifies as the highest target for removal
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The government has resources to deport about 400,000 or less than 4% of the undocumented population. So choices have to be made.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Who will the government deport who will leave alone.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And historically, the people who are left alone are those with equities like lengthy residents humanitarian needs family ties in the United States. This kind of discretion is really essential to a functioning immigration system.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In the Trump administration. We've seen enforcement priorities look a little different. For example, guidance lists for example those with old removal orders as actual priorities, without even mentioning discretion. How it can be exercised or equities that could be considered
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In addition to these broader executive orders. We saw or the words coming from leadership.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Former Immigration and Customs Enforcement had Tom Holman said, quote, there's no population off the table. If you're in the country illegally. We're looking for you.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And these words really translated into tragedy on the ground one immigration advocate. I interviewed told me quote
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Every one is a priority. It doesn't matter if you've been in the country 20 years and you've never committed a crime and you're on your way to Sunday school, you are a priority and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In the time of Trump immigration enforcement has also extended to other branches of the government that are not typically involved in deportation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): As one former ins or Immigration and Naturalization Service had told me quote
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): You see an enforcement outlook and actions that US Citizenship and Immigration Services is taking that would have never happened in the INS days.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): People today can go in for naturalization interview and come out in handcuffs subject to deportation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That would have never taken place, that is, and one of the reasons is not just that it was a different era or different administration. It was that if people were eligible for benefits the view was that they should be given the opportunity to have their cases reviewed.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The expansion of enforcement priorities or the abandonment of them as documented in the original edition of band lingered until the global pandemic.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In March 2020 ice published a policy on their website that limits immigration enforcement to those who pose a public safety threat or those subject to mandatory detention for criminal reasons.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): This forsman shift or limitation was significant in theory but its legitimacy was undermined by the continued detention of immigrants in ice facilities.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The choice by the administration to deploy DHS employees to rallies around the country at which individuals were protesting the deaths of black Floyd George Floyd, excuse me another black men and women at the hands of police officers and continued deportations.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): deporting dreamers and other chapter in my book and closely related to discretion, because how we treat dreamers is associated with enforcement priorities.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Dhaka is a policy that was announced in 2012 by former President Barack Obama, it was implemented by then Secretary of Homeland Security and to qualify
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): People have to have entered the United States before the age of 16 be in school or graduated show that they need other requirements.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Qualifying doc or recipients are protected from removal through a type of prosecutorial discretion called Deferred Action.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And this Deferred Action period runs two years and also provides a basis for work authorization. It's been a gateway for 800,000 immigrant youth.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The Trump administration announced an end to Dhaka on sep tember fifth 2017 and the announcement was delivered by the Attorney General.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): At a press conference at which he called Dreamers illegal aliens and the Docker policy unlawful.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): One doc or recipient. I spoke to us to her lunch break to listen to session speech and she said to me.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Just hearing everything that he said, knowing that was such a lie. Such an excuse. Such a bowl. It was a pretty defeating dehumanizing moments.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And other Dhaka recipient. I spoke to talked about the mental toll. And he said to me.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I think it's not so much the effect of the policies that are being enacted, which are dangerous and poisonous to our democracy.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But it's the psychological warfare that we're subjected to on a daily basis. We live in a time where the President can just pick up the phone, send out a tweet and then you spend the whole day deciphering it
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): How bad is it how bad, isn't it, that's followed by really bad actors across all agencies that are trying to diminish any sort of real idea that this nation continues to be a nation of immigrants.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And November 12 the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the Dhaka case and ask the parties to answer two questions. First is the Dhaka case reviewable. Second, if the answer is yes. Is the way Dhaka ended lawful
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): On June 18 of this year, the Supreme Court by a five four vote concluded that yes, the cases reviewable and know the way the administration ended Dhaka was not lawful rather it was arbitrary and capricious under administrative law.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Well, the Supreme Court hands it a victory to Dhaka, the implementation of the decision has been complicated in part by a memorandum from DHS setting its own limits and terms to the docket policy in ways that defy the Supreme Court.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So in this chapter on Dhaka. I also bridged and connected it to two other populations who have been vulnerable to enforce it in the time of Trump
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Those who hold TPS or temporary protected status as well as those who are in deferred enforced departure or d d
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the ties that bind Dhaka recipients TPS holders and d d holders, is that these are populations that are here temporarily they've lived in the United States for over a decade and they are vulnerable to deportation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In 1990 Congress created TPS for nationals have designated countries who can't return to their country for a specific reason like a civil war or ongoing conflict.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): This is a durable status, but a temporary one and one that the Trump administration sought to remove from hundreds of thousands of TPS folders.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): One immigration advocate told me, quote, the government is actually taking people who have access to legal work authorization and have built their lives here and making them undocumented and deporting them.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And this is an important point for two reasons. First, it shows us how the target of the Trump administration is not only people without papers, but also legal immigrants. Second, you see an attempt by this administration to create or expand the unauthorized population.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And other chapter in my book deals with the Muslim ban, and the Muslim ban also highlights how legal immigrants recognized under the immigration statute have also been a target.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It refers to three separate policies that were made by the President. Most of the nation's targeted have populations that are overwhelmingly Muslim
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The first was issued as an executive order in January 2017 and some of you might remember or may have participated in the activity that weekend where
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): advocates and attorneys were deployed to airports, there was a lot of chaos and part of the reason is that the executive order was issued with no guidance or training to those responsible for implementing
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The latest version of the travel ban was issued as a presidential proclamation, and it was survived in the courts. It's been operational since December 4 2017
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And it excludes would be green card holders and several travelers even today who are from Iran, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Syria and Yemen.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The US Supreme Court upheld this version of the band on both statutory and constitutional grounds.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the statutory premise that the Trump administration used to implement the travel or Muslim ban was a section of the immigration statute called to 12 F and I want to mention it because
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Is a section that keeps giving or taking away, however you determine that.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It says specifically that the President may suspend the entry of any quote alien or class of aliens and quote
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): If such entry would be detrimental to the interest of the United States and Chief Justice Roberts found this language to be broad and language that exudes deference to the President in every clause.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): One attorney. I spoke to describe the case of an Iranian physician who gave birth to twins, whose parents could not travel to the United States. She said to me.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To not even be able to hold their grandchildren not support their kids were doctors. It's hard. It's really, really hard on the Community.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): She continued the common thread I see among every single person that walks into my office is I need my mom because I'm going to be in labor and I can't do this without her.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or I'm the first person in my family to get my PhD and it would mean the world to my parents to be there at my graduation ceremony.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or I'm in love, and I'm getting married and I'm getting engaged, and this is a huge moment in my life, and I would like my parents to meet my future husband.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): There are moments in our lives that we normally share with family graduations birth of a child engagements weddings, all of them destroyed for people because of the Muslim ban.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And I want to say something about where I'm situated in Central Pennsylvania. I teach at Penn State law.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And we are a campus to a very large community of international students and scholars, people might not normally think of rural Pennsylvania as a community deeply affected by the Muslim ban.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But we were in fact the fourth most effective university in the country by the first version. And it's an example I used to really show how national policy can affect our own community.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): After band went into print the Muslim ban was expanded to include nationals from six other countries, mainly African countries, so some people call it now the Muslim and African ban.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It had an immediate effect, you know, one example of someone affected you can think about is a Nigeria nigeria was identified. So I got a call from
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): A Nigerian National who was sponsored by a US employer approved for a petition for a green card. But who was traveling back and forth from the United States to Nigeria for his business. And he was outside the United States.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The day that this band went into effect. And as a result, blocked for the entry.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Also since publication of this book is Coby
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And we've really seen between January 2022 March, and again, relying on this to 12 F clause that I mentioned from the Muslim ban.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Multiple policies, published by the administration to block people physically present in certain parts of the world from entering the United States and those regions of the world include China, Iran, the Schengen area I Ireland and the UK.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In April, the White House issued a new proclamation suspending immigration from the entire world, not just specific countries and, like with earlier administrations that to 12 F clause was used
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the human impact again was profound, it would have blocked my own mother who came to the United States as the spouse of a green card holder from entering the United States today.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So we see how what started as a band targeting nationals from certain countries has only continued to grow.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I now want to shift to a chapter in my book called rejecting refugees.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And we might think about this population as among the nation's most vulnerable asylum seekers, refugees.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Parents children one recurring theme throughout this book and also with respect to refugee policy in the time of Trump
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Is that they reflect choices discretionary choices, rather than legal requirements one former ins official I spoke to said to me, to define refugees as a national security threat.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We haven't thought that way for decades. So refugees are outside the United States basic admission. They have to meet several requirements, legal and procedural
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the President has enormous discretion to decide what the CAP will be on the number of refugees who can be admitted each year.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And in the time of Trump. We've seen those numbers at historically low levels.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The numbers are fixed for 2021 at 15,000 were fixed at 2024 18,000 contrast that to previous administrations both the Democratic and Republican
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or presidents are more in the ballpark of 70 to 110,000 when it comes to refugee ceilings.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Now let's talk about protection here in the United States on individuals were physically present in the United States apply for asylum, they to have to meet the refugee definition.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But we've seen multiple restrictions to asylum in the time of Trump. So I talked about Jeff Sessions zero tolerance policy, and he said,
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I quote if you cross this border unlawfully. Then we will prosecute you. It's that simple.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And quote, and this is a policy that extended to asylum seekers, where a parent and a child or a parent.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or multiple children would arrive at the border, the parent would be referred to a US Attorney for prosecution for unlawful entry.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The child or children would be reclassified as unaccompanied minors and then separated from their parents.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And so there was a close connection between the zero tolerance policy and family separation. But what has become evident through litigation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): As well as very recent oversight reports and testimony is that the Trump administration had an affirmative policy to separate parents and children. And even today, there are a number of parents who have not been reunited despite litigation or during the administration to do so.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Other restrictions to asylum have been
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Procedural but these procedural changes are in fact substantively significant. So, for example, a policy change to block asylum to people who arrived.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In between ports of entry or at a place other than a port of entry. Similarly, a policy, known as the transit rule to block asylum to people who might
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Pass through another country before they arrive at the southern border, and this is something I saw all the way in Central Pennsylvania.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): When our clinic went to Berks County residential center which is one of three family detention centers in the country and where families were being outright denied asylum eligibility because of the way they entered the United States.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I think the final policy change and conversation in my book on that I'll talk about before doing a speed through some solutions.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And this term is appropriate is speedy deportations, and this is crucial because in addition to thinking about who we target for immigration enforcement or deportation is this question of how we deport and enforce immigration law and in June.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): President Trump tweeted, we cannot allow all of these people to invade the country when somebody comes in, we must immediately with no judges or court cases, bring them back from where they came
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and law and order and quote
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I mean, what's interesting about this tweet from the President is that we now write books that in fact use the word tweet.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And second, that the immigration statute already has a framework for quickly deporting people. And in fact, the vast majority of people who are deported from the United States are done. So through a speedy deportation program.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But the Trump administration really did state through executive order and narrative its desire to maximize it even more.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So where do we go from here. I think that we've all seen the courts play a really significant role in rolling back some of the immigration policies in the time of Trump, but my
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Position is that the courts are not going to save us, they certainly didn't save us with the Muslim ban, and more importantly, a lot of these solutions lie with
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The executive and with Congress. And I want to just talk a little bit about
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The executive because hearts and minds are on what an executive can do if we think about the first days of a Biden Harris administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And to my benefit they align quite nicely with some of the solutions that are detailed in my book. And so one of those solutions. And I'm going to just put the slide up here are two really undo some of the bands that we've seen. So we saw an announcement by
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): President Elect Joe Biden that he will resend the Muslim ban on day one. And so I'm been getting a lot of questions of
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): How do you do that. Right. And because it was issued as a proclamation. It's one of those tools or policies that are easier to take away
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I don't want to overstate that point, though, because they're the separation that has already taken place.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): With families were already separated through the band those milestones. I mentioned like births and engagements that parents have missed you know those cannot be returned to those families.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But there is a fairly quick way to resend the band's similarly with Dhaka where we see an attempt by the Trump administration to move away from a full restoration of Dhaka
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We have the possibility of a maybe even broader use of prosecutorial discretion when it comes to dreamers on to other populations who might benefit from deferred action and maybe I'll
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): end by talking about how we think about enforcement priorities and the importance of listing factors and equities that have long informed discretion in the immigration system.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And returning to the use of compassion and these equities when we consider what a prosecutorial discretion policy looks like moving forward.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So I'm going to stop there. And thank you so much for your attention and I'm really looking forward to comments from Professor and easily.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Thank you very much. Ingrid, the floor is yours.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Great. Thank you so much. They. I want to thank the organizers for inviting Professor, why do here today and thank you so much for your amazing book that is just an incredible contribution.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): I want to encourage everyone. This is really a must read it contains such rich detail it draws on really impactful interviews with
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): A wide variety of players, including individuals who are themselves immigrants and impacted by the policies of our current president and classic
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): To Professor whitey his academic style. It's very clear beautifully written and really make sense of a very complex area of law. So something that really good you know drills down on essential policies in a very clear and helpful way which is a big accomplishment in this area.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So there's been really a monumental number of changes during the Trump administration.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Yet you know in this book, we really see a concise summary and catalog of many of the most important ones and the way in which they are directly
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Impacting the structure of the immigration system as a refugee system as well as you know individual lives that have been impacted
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): This is a really great time for our this book talk because as we transition to a new administration, we're seeing the possibility for a new set of policies and it's also a time where our vice president elect
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Harris has an inspirational family story is herself being the daughter of two immigrants and someone who, during the Democratic primaries went, you know, further than
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): President Elect Biden in terms of her proposals which included arguing that unlawful entry should itself not be a crime.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And also proposing some new rules that would define separation from a close family member to qualifies extreme hardship, which would be a dramatic.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Expansion of cancellation of removal, a form of immigration relief that is also discussed in band, of course, any strategy would require
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): executive actions Congress retooling of government agencies and also support by the courts which have been fairly dramatically, you know, restaffed under the Trump administration.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): I want to use my be brief time to just highlight three topics that are discussed in the book that I think are particularly salient as we think about this transition in administration's
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): executive action prosecutorial discretion and then also immigration courts are the sort of inverse of immigration court speed deportation.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And I'm not expecting you know responses to the questions that I raised that really try to generate discussion as we open it up to the to the group that that is participating
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So one of the topics that's been discussed extensively in the book is the extent to which the President has the authority to sustain change or terminate existing immigration policies.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Obama, of course, use the presidential power and Dhaka is a powerful example of that. And Trump signed as you've already discussed many executive orders, including executive order suspending refugee admissions.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): You explain you know in the final remarks about how, you know, the President and you know President Biden could sort of undo these we could understand that Muslims. We can reaffirm support for doc or for TPS
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Again, through presidential action. And I think this also connects to a book talk that we're looking forward to coming up.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): With professors Rodriguez and Cox on the President in immigration law.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): In their book they highlight that, you know, one of the biggest contracts of many of the biggest controversies in immigration law in the last decade of all involved.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): These policies that are promulgated by the President's through executive actions so we can critique sort of one set of those policies and applaud another set of those policies.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): But I think that, you know, having these policies come through from a president does cause some, you know, pain and uncertainty. I love the quote from a dreamer that you interviewed
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Who says we live in a time where the President can just pick up the phone, send a tweet and then you spend the whole day deciphering it, how bad is it
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): How bad, isn't it, that's followed by really bad actors across all agencies that are trying to diminish any sort of real idea that this nation continues to be a nation of immigrants.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So, you know, a very powerful quote that goes toward the particular policies, but I think also sort of the uncertainty of having policies, you know, wiped away with the stroke of a pen or a tweet.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So I think one of the important things to be thinking about is, you know, if we moved as we move towards divided administration. You know how many of these policies will be undone by executive order.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And then what is the positive possibility of, you know, having other kinds of structural changes through action of
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Of Congress. The second topic that's incredibly interesting is prosecutorial discretion. And I think this builds so well on another of your books that I want to encourage everyone also to read
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Your prior book beyond deportation, the role of prosecutorial discretion in immigration cases.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And in that book. And this book, you talked about how Obama cabinet immigration priorities to sort of focus on those with who would be national security rest are those with criminal convictions.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): This was outlined in a 2014 memo that sort of set forth those priorities and also when and how to carry those out preserving certain sensitive locations like schools and churches.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): To be safe from immigration enforcement trap, of course, has reversed. All of these policies and we see that dramatically. Also in the prosecution of asylum seekers and the so called zero tolerance policy.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So now as we're in this different administration, we can sort of narrow those private priorities eliminate
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Enforcement at sensitive locations and the prosecution of asylum seekers all very ambitious and important proposals.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): But I also am struck by, you know, the Obama administration also was sort of labeled the reporter and chief
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Prop you know deported more immigrants than any other administration and prosecuted a record number of border crossers
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): You know, one book here that has been influential for me is Bill hangs book that looks at American presidents in deportations from Carter to Trump and sort of the arc of the severity and immigration.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Enforcement. So I'm wondering as we think about these new proposals to have how to, you know, change the user prosecutorial discretion.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Are we thinking about a policy that just brings us back to the Obama administration or are we thinking about policies that would, you know, reform and Taylor further so that the Biden Harris administration actually does look different.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And then the final area is one that you know i know i've i've lot of my work touches on as well and I really appreciate this part of your book and that is looking at immigration courts.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Here we've seen dramatic changes in immigration courts under the Trump administration, the Attorney General reversing established precedent.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Such as a matter of Castro tune taking away the ability of immigration judges to
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Administratively close cases which is adopting tool that has traditionally been used by immigration judges and enforcing quotas.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): That on immigration judges have to follow to ensure that they get a satisfactory review by their boss you interview daily marks. This is another quote that I just wanted to touch on
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Very briefly, she's of course up very well known and respected immigration judge in San Francisco and formerly had an immigration judges Union, which was just recently threatened with decertification
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): And she says that these policies, including the quotas that have been imposed under the current administration.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): I have a duty to afford every individual who comes before me due process. So I have to give that individual, the amount of time they need in order to comply. Complete the case which is before me.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): When this quota is what this quote is going to mean is that when I deny a continuance
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Or I say that one more witness is duplicative and not necessary. The people before me are going to ask is, Judge marks making a decision based on her own legal judgment.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Or is she concerned about trying to improve her own personal performance rating, a very real concern and a concern that really undermines trust in immigration courts and the rule of law.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): That judges don't have time to spend on their individual cases. And that's really by design by all of these policies that have been
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Imposed on immigration judges taking away their authority. So the Biden plan, you know, part of his first 100 days is to reverse. Many of these policies.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): That are that are impacting immigration courts and you also propose a sort of a more ambitious plan in your book, which includes
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): The independence of immigration courts and so that's something that I wanted to, you know, hear more about, you know, do we think that's feasible and do we think that abide in Harris administration could possibly get that done.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): So I want to end there. Again, I just applaud you. And thank you so much for for this wonderful contribution and for coming and sharing it with us today.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Thank you, Ingrid Chabot, would you like to briefly respond
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Sure. Those are all great comments and I really should I hope the crowd already knows
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): How instrumental Professor equally zone work and a lot of these areas have been during the time of Trump
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So that we have the numbers and the empirical data also to dispel many of the narrative that we have heard in this administration, I, I want to talk about what I think I first heard about just the use of discretion.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Kind of one president to the next, right where we have, you know, the Obama administration wielded presidential power and you didn't ask it in this way, but I will sort of add to add to what I think will might be the question.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Well, isn't that the same kind of power being wielded by the Trump administration and then it goes to the next and the next and when is it legitimate.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): What is enough. What is too much. And I think that when I think about the question. It's really about how discretion is used
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So I think that discretion and this is part of my own value that I believe that when discretion is used, especially given the current statutory framework.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It should generally favor the non citizens, right, because it is it is a powerful tool in an already robust statutory framework.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So there are differences if I think about how prosecutorial discretion policy was drawn by the Obama administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the way that discretion was used on both of micro and macro level by the Trump administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It wasn't used to keep families together or in consideration of equities or to favor someone who's been here in the United States for long periods of time, but instead used to restrict to exclude to deport
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): On this, on the second question, which is also related right as well as the solution to just go back to the Obama administration. Right. Do we, do we return to the 2014 prosecutorial discretion policy.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): What about the fact that there was a record number of deportations. So I think I have two reactions to that. The first being that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The Obama administration does not provide us with a perfect immigration policy and so rubber stamping what took place during his tenure may not be
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): An is not the solution, we should be looking for or the ways that we hold a new administration accountable.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And I think related to that is just, we're in a new world, right. We are in a landscape where the scale of harm is something like we haven't seen before the scale of immigration enforcement.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The greater and heightened attention to the intersection of race and immigration, you know, these are things that just cannot be ignored.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): When we think about what policy change looks like in a new administration. And I think the same sort of dramatic sword.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That the Trump administration pulled to enact these policies may be the same dramatic sword that needs to be used for us to to rethink these policies overall family detention as an example of that.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): As you know from your work. You know, we, there's no real rationale for why we detain families. It's existed over
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Many administrations, but it's discretionary. There's no legal requirement to detain families. So a new way to think about it is, what does it mean to no longer hold families in detention.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And like that. I think there are other pieces where we need to take a fresh look at immigration reform moving forward.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And then finally, on immigration courts, which I don't spend a lot of time on I but I
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): There is such an urgency for greater independence, given the degree to which that independence has been taken away from immigration judges in the time of Trump
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Politically, I think it's going to be difficult. I think it's going to be difficult because that's going to require legislative crafting
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I know that after 911 before I was an academic was a lobbyists. I was working on different types of immigration legislation and one proposal was just to pull the immigration court.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Out of the Department of Justice or an end to make it just an agency and and even that was a very difficult left. So I think any kind of legislative change the changes the structure
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It's possible, but it has more challenges than some of the executive policy changes.
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Thank you for those comments and questions.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Okay, thank you. For those of you who are on the call. If you have a question that you would like to pose, please use the electronic can raise function and and you'll be recognized.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: I have a question just to start things off Chabot which is I know that you're a legal scholar, but you've also worked in the policy field. And as you assess the consequences of actual changes in the law.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Visa V changes and discourse say calling you know Mexican Americans rapists and so forth all of the norm busting even raising the question is whether or not unauthorized immigrants should have access to
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: The courts, even if that wasn't actually put into effect calling asylum seekers, you know, bogus and scammers and so forth. How do you weigh the importance of those two things.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So I, I, we could write a whole separate book on narrative. Right. I think the narrative and the terminology that's been used by the Trump administration has been damaging
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And it's not unrelated to that psychological warfare either and uncertainty that one person I interviewed highlighted we've we've seen it collide with the legal discourse right when we saw some of the challenges that were made.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Not necessarily successful but you know I think we saw for the first time, time and time again in lawsuits that animus was was driving particular immigration policy and challenging that animus as a matter of law.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So, so you know what kind of effect. Do I think it has, as we think about immigration policy, it has a large one. And I think terminology matters and will always matter, and I expect that we will see a shift and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): How this new administration talks about immigration and I'll leave it to the sort of social scientists to determine, you know how that might have a net positive effect on on policy itself.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Thanks. We have a question here from Jacob. Thomas and summarizing
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: What if the Bible administration were to prioritize cases of immigrants who had committed felonies. You might be some kind of security risk.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: These kinds of cases. And if, at the same time, the government consistently took legal action to prevent further unauthorized migration through Employer sanctions mechanisms and so forth.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Do you think that the public would support, perhaps even higher levels of deportation, as long as they really were prioritizing people who had committed more significant crimes or somehow did actually post some sort of threat.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So that's a complex question right and it's at the complexity predates the Trump administration. It's something I also talk a lot about in
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): My first book beyond deportation in terms of how do we determine who is a high priority, who is a low priority, who do we deport, who do we leave alone.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): These are choices that we know have to be made economically because of limited resources.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But looking 70 years back. We also know that equities really historically have informed that decision making. So I don't know that any element of criminality should suffice to
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Being a priority for enforcement or even any felony for that matter. And I think that part of that has to do with
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): How I view the role of prosecutorial discretion and the importance of looking at the whole person and equities whether the public might be more satisfied.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): If we target people who are in the view of the administration serious criminals, perhaps that's something we saw in
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The Obama administration, perhaps not as we think about how we are talking about the criminal justice system and race today, which is just no longer unrelated to immigration enforcement priorities. So if there are
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Problems that are structural and systemic. I THINK THOSE CONVERSATIONS. REALLY HAVE TO surface so that it's not a sort of families not felons language. And then we move on because i don't i don't think that will be satisfactory to the public anymore. And I guess I'll end with what is
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Again longstanding conversation in the immigration discourse to is, you know, who do we label as a good immigrant who do we label as a bad immigrant. That's a complicated question dreamers.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Don't want protection at the expense of their parents, for example. So what does it mean to have a solution that is inclusive, but also sensible.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: And you know the I'm sure you've seen this report our colleagues at the migration policy institute have catalogued more than 400 changes and immigration policy.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Under the Trump administration. Some of them have brought protesters into the street. You mentioned the airport cases. For example, related to the Muslim ban travel ban.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: What are the policies that have not gotten a lot of front page attention or who have which have not brought protesters into the street but are really consequential and they're not really well understood.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Well, it's interesting you bring up the Muslim ban, because one thing I observed is people started getting Muslim ban, fatigue, right. So you saw all the airports after the very first version came out of the administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But then it just became hard to keep up. Right. And I think that that exhaustion was also intentional on the part of the Trump administration. So what proclamation. Are you on today. And who's affected and what are the exemptions.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I don't think that the continuing continued implementation of the Muslim ban was overstated or in the public eye, necessarily.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Further, and this isn't something that I take up in my book, but I take up and later writing is the notion of the so called shadow docket.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In immigration, where the Trump administration has in many cases involving immigration in which it loses sort of leap frog to the US Supreme Court and asked the US Supreme Court.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To put a stop to the stop that I lower court has made on immigration policy and been successful and been successful by
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): A Supreme Court issuing an order that has a couple sentences that could be signed, or could be unsigned and it literally means that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We don't have a normal court process anymore, right, the Supreme Court says, oh,
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I'm President Trump you lost we'll, we'll put an end to that. Right. And we'll let will reinstate the policy you wanted all along. We saw that with the Muslim ban, before the Supreme Court took it up, we saw that with the asylum trends that rule.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We saw that with public charge. Those are three examples of the shadow docket. And I also think that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Family separation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Has been off the grid, to the extent that we know what that looks like and tastes like based on what we've seen in the media parents and children at the border. But I think there are many untold stories of family separation in the Trump administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That has doesn't have the same kind of flavor right or hasn't been tasted in the same way by the American public.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It's harder to tell the story of family separation in the Muslim ban, because you don't see it right. A lot of it is behind closed doors or with respect to the changes and enforcement priorities, if
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): A greater number of breadwinners are being detained when they go into a routine check in and then deported. Um, so I think the many different flavors of family separation has also gone somewhat I noticed
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Thanks.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Here's a question from Feisal
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Whoo. Howdy will increasing
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Let's see here.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: You know as as society's age do you think there'll be a shift in favor among conservatives to reconsider their opposition to immigration perhaps to recognize the need for more younger workers to feed into pension funds and so forth to sustain the entire apparatus.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It's a great question. And we've had this sort of aging demographic for a while now, right, that continues to increase and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Really what this question is about though is, you know, is this going to change hearts and minds. Right. And that's, that's a big question.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And it may not even be a legal question and I don't know that the evidence of aging demographic alone will change hearts and minds, I think.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The need for labor from an immigrant by someone who then experiences. The benefit of that immigrant labor could change their heart and mind.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I think that a return to some kind of bipartisan debate and conversation with didn't exist for many years around immigration where you had many different political views coming together when it came to pragmatic solutions to immigration could aid in
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): A reconsideration or movement forward on immigration reform. So I think it's a combination of these sort of micro
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): connections that people have with immigrants, so they can see the benefits and the have the lived experience of those benefits.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): As well as the political will and the composition to return to a conversation about immigration and that might just get back to
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Your question about just narrative, right, we have to change the narrative on how policymakers are even talking about immigration in order to get to the evidentiary reasons for why we need immigration reform.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: You know, one of the striking things about some of this court cases that you were talking about is that so many of them seem to be
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Decided in favor of the immigrant advocacy organizations, based on the argument that the administration policies were violating administrative law.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: And is it my imagination or is that fairly novel, to the extent that it is novel. Can you say anything about how that strategy developed or why it's been effective or not. And, and particularly sets of cases.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm an administrative law nerd. So it's, you know, it wasn't an aberration. For me, as I was reading through the
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The court cases and the arguments. I think that, you know, administrative law is about agencies and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Choices that are made by agencies or the executive have to be reasonable and they have to be rational. And I think that we've seen with regard to many of the policies that were issued by the Trump administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Procedural bypasses right and those bypasses being, I'm not going to go through the notice and common rulemaking requirements of administrative law procedurally
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And get public input and then consider those comments and then publish a rule. Instead, I'm going to announce the presidential proclamation. I'm going to publish an interim final rule that is immediately effective
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And so I think that it just, I don't want to call it low hanging fruit because I don't think any of these lawsuits were easy lawsuits.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But I think there's just a clear violation of process under administrative law. And the same is true for rationale. Right. You can't just announced that Dhaka will and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That the policy is, you know, unlawful. You know when it's never been ruled is unlawful in the history of different action and then
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Try to tie the logic for example of ending Dhaka to people coming across the southern border right there just so many reasons why you can poke holes at the arbitrary nature of policy changes and Doc is really a
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): You know, significant example because of the contributions of Docker recipients right and the benefits that they bring to
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The United States, it is the last sexy basis right for winning
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or being successful. And so it takes more on packaging right people are more used to hearing you know constitutional arguments and they
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That's more familiar to them, then administrative law and then there may be some constitutional avoidance, right, if there are arguments that can be raised under administrative law or in other cases immigration statute because the immigration statute has also been
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): A basis for legal challenges. For example, the asylum ban.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It's a pretty clear violation of the literal language of the asylum statute that any person, regardless of how they entered regardless of their status can apply for asylum, um, there may be a little bit of that constitutional avoidance to
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Ingrid. Do you want to jump in on any of these questions. I know that this also very much touches on your work.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Yes, I'm just, I'm eating. I wanted to just, I was hoping that
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): I mean, I talked a little bit about immigration courts, but I was wondering if we could talk to us a little bit about speed deportations, because that's something that I think that your critical of in your
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): In your book, and I know you've also written other academic articles on the uses the deportation. So expedited removal reinstatement of removal administrative removal
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): What do you see as you know and reliance on this is also sort of discretionary. So do you think that there's anything that I'm Biden administration could do to sort of switch policy direction or the Congress could do in this area as well.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Sure. So, and you can see that the sun for my window is shifting. I am not shifting. So, so we have this statute and
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Now I'm having a teacher moment right so here's the immigration statute was written by Congress in 1952 second and complication to the US tax code and inside of the statue are three speed deportation programs that have been around for a long time.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The three programs were nicely listed by Professor ugly, but they basically allow the Department of Homeland Security to deport a person before they see a judge or without even stepping foot
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In a courtroom and it's not intuitive, right. I think most people believe that before you are deported, you go into a courtroom and the judge makes a decision.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But these speed deportation programs are significant because the agency acts as the prosecutor as the jailer as the judge.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And the rules are statutory and they apply today to people who arrive at the border without documents or notes or false documents.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To those who have committed certain crimes and are not green card holders and to those who have an old removal order and re enter right
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And so these three populations which sometimes might even sounded like dangerous populations are in fact ones that might be your next door neighbors or
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Individuals whose children go to school with
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Your own children. Several of the cases that our clinic is handled have involved people who are subject to one of these speedy deportation programs.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So one thing that the Biden administration could do is to exercise its discretion to limit speedy deportation. So the statute doesn't need to change.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): In order for a Biden Harris administration to direct that the Department of Homeland Security and Justice limit their use of speedy deportation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So it's an example of a discretionary choice that can be used. There's always discretion by a line officer at the border.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To even decide to put somebody in expedited approval. Right. So the same person who is legally eligible for expedited approval, because they arrived at the border without papers.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I could use my discretion to just place that person in regular removal proceedings. So I think that we can see those kinds of changes, possibly at a broad level right where
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We haven't seen this in any prosecutorial discretion policy, as far as I'm aware.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Where the new administration says that, as a matter of prosecutorial discretion, the departments of the Department of Homeland Security should generally avoid
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): applying these deportation policies in favor of either not putting someone in removal proceedings at all. That's a lot of money or issuing a notice to appear for leaf is available.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: There we have a question from Modesto and and then does have there been any changes in visas or other procedures around victims of crime immigrants who were victims of crime and this administration or looking forward to what is likely in the bite administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Sure, it's a great question. So there are a few different remedies and benefits that are available to survivors in the immigration statute.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): One that's gotten attention by the Biden administration is the so called a you visa and this is a creature of the statute. Congress added it in the year 2000 and it allows for people
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Regardless of their status to seek protection if they have been the victim of a crime.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And they are helpful to law enforcement in the investigation and prosecution of that crime so that could include a survivor of domestic violence and sexual assault.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or a victim of robbery. Just to give you kind of the spectrum, um, it has been difficult in the Trump administration for a few reasons they're still discretion and how agencies decide right what helpfulness looks like for example. Second, we've seen some policy changes that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Suggest that law enforcement should live in when and if they certify these cases before a person applies at USC is those things could be ameliorated if not removed and abide in Harris administration and other change IC that could be of great benefit is to
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Increase the number of visas that are available for you victims or survivors. Currently, the statute sets the ceiling at 10,000
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That's I think now a number that we can over the passage of time identify as a far too low number to the actual demanded people who are in need of this protection and similarly, because there are such a dramatic backlog.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): The administration could use executive power to ensure that there's enough staff and resources at the agencies to ensure that those you visas and waiting are provided with temporary protection and work authorization as soon as possible. If they are prime efficient eligible
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Okay. We have a question from money and bit of mood is, you know, what can you tell us about the similarities and differences between the deportation of children under the Obama and Trump administration's
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): It's another great question and I haven't
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Specifically studied the deportation of children, but what I have
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Observed is the increased number of unaccompanied minors who are turned away. So there you know in the wake of
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We've seen that there is an even a process of detention and deportation, but rather because of rules that have been put into place. People just being turned away at the
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): southern border. I imagine that there will be a menu of solutions that come out that are specific to children.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): When it comes to limiting or stopping their deportations limiting their detention, ensuring that they have greater access to counsel.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): These are some of the remedies that I can imagine has already come out of the woodwork or could for new administration, I wouldn't be able to speak between the similarities and differences between Obama and Trump because I just haven't studied it
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Okay, you mentioned the pandemic. Here's the second tenement related question from Feisal Bahati who suggests that because of the pandemic. Some people may have unintentionally overstayed their visas.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Are you aware of any policies that are being proposed under Biden Harris administration to remedy that particular situation.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I took great question, and this is a, um,
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I don't know how much attention. It's gotten I've, I've certainly counseled a number of people in this situation already
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): And I, and I think that the magic answer is prosecutorial discretion and that's because the agency has the prosecutorial discretion to relax or suspend
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): You know expiration dates during an extraordinary event. Right, that's exactly what happened with students who were affected during Hurricane Katrina, for example.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): So this global pandemic is an extraordinary event where it is more than reasonable to maximize the use of prosecutorial discretion.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): When it comes to those who are, you know, unable to get a timely extension on their visa or even depart the United States on time, through no fault of their own.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Okay.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Anybody else like to offer a question or comment here, I see that Apollo's period is low in the sky in Pennsylvania right now.
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): jump in with another question. And one of the things I touched on, you know, something that I've done a lot of research on which is, you know, the prosecution of border crossers and you know that's something that got a lot of discussion in the context of the Democratic
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): Debates right for in the context of the presidential nomination for the Democratic candidate and we do see differences between
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Ingrid Eagly, UCLA Law (she/her): What Biden proposed and Harris, you know, sort of siding with Castro and others who were favor decriminalization at least have section 1325 illegal entry crimes. What do you see as being sort of possible, given the posture of Congress and, you know, sort of public opinion in these areas.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Yeah, it's, it's a great question. I think that it's
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I think that there will be a lot of people that need to be swayed in order for there to be a decriminalization of unlawful entry.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): But I do you think that an executive at a new attorney general has the power to tell us attorneys.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Or at least make it a federal policy that unlawful entry crimes are low priorities for criminal prosecution right so in the same way that there are
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): There are limited resources and immigration. There are also limited resources in the criminal justice system even
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): US Attorney's and former US attorneys were very critical of the zero tolerance policy because it was not in their normal arsenal.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To use their limited resources to prosecute people who were not committing dangerous crimes did not have a victim in their crime did not have
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): You know they'd rather focus on the sex trafficking ring that's taking place down the road, right, or in their jurisdiction, then say
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Deal with an unlawful entrant, I think, the way we might persuade right is to impress upon the skeptics that this is not the end of the road for anyone who enters the United States without inspection.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Because they are subject to both a criminal sanction under current law, and also a civil one and a pretty significant one called deportation unless there is relief available. So I think if people understand that by decriminalizing unlawful entry.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): There are still consequences that attach when someone enters without inspection.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): will also help to demystify this idea that we would be in a lawless landscape. If we decriminalized unlawful entry.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Okay, we'll close with a question from our co host Roger waldinger who asks, although you earlier suggested that your mom administration should not be seen as a model for a vitamin Harris administration going forward.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: I wonder whether the administration can avert the types of conflicts that fit into advocates against the administration under Obama
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: In the end, advocates will always be pushing for expanded admissions, whereas the administration will be responsive to the same type of restrictions impulses that led the Obama administration and ways that left the advocacy community someone happy.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That's a, that's a big last question right and i think that i don't i don't know that any administration will make everyone happy right i think that i think that is
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I think that immigration policy is an example of at least in my short 20 plus years in the field, you know, one of those
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Policies and issues where
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): There's compromise and you end up in a situation where people may I think an administration is not going far enough and others will think that they are going too far. And anyone who's able to actually fix that. I mean that that's way above my pay grade. But I do think that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): We are in a new era, to the extent that the and this gets back to sort of the power of discretion and the degree to which changes are needed are so significant.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): That I I believe that
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): Abide in administration has more political capital that then what President Obama had to make dramatic changes to immigration policy, the restriction is there going to be there, but because of the restrictions were so sweeping
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): I do think that that provides you know, more, more tools in the toolbox and political capital for a Biden Harris administration.
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Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia (she, hers): To really be intentional about the choices they are making around immigration.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Well, thank you so much, Professor Roger. Thank you, Professor eagerly for for sharing your insights
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: Please join us next week at the same time to discuss many of the same themes that we've been talking about today.
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David FitzGerald, UCSD: In the president and immigration law by Christina Rodriguez and Adam Cox with discussion by Hiroshima tomorrow. Have a good weekend. Everyone, and I hope to see you next weekend. Thank you.
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Thank you.