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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, I believe we can start. Hello, everybody. I am Roger waldinger Professor of Sociology at UCLA, Director of the Center for the Study of international migration.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And I am delighted to welcome you to our continuing session of book talks on migration.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Today we will discuss a new book by Yossi Harper's Assistant Professor of Sociology at Tel Aviv University citizenship two point O dual nationality as a global asset with the comment by Rogers group Baker Professor of Sociology UCLA.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Let me make sure to emphasize that this is an ongoing joint activity of the CSM at UCLA and the Center for comparative immigration studies at UC San Diego.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And then we will meet again, same time, same place, so to speak, next Friday for discussion of a book by
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Show about why to band immigration enforcement in the time of Trump. So I'm going to give the floor over to your see who will speak for roughly 20 minutes
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: He'll be followed by a common from Rogers, the floor will go back to your seat and then we will open up and you can use the hands raised function to if you wish to ask a question. Okay, so you're actually the floors yours.
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Yossi Harpaz: Okay, so on.
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Yossi Harpaz: Thank you. Thank you, Roger. And thanks, David for Sophia for making this happen. Thanks. Rogers for being in discussing. Can you see the my video by
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Yossi Harpaz: Sorry.
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Yossi Harpaz: Sorry, just a second. Is it sharing now.
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Yossi Harpaz: Is it during my slideshow right now.
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Sophia Angeles: Says to double click to enter the full screen mode.
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Okay.
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Sophia Angeles: It's working great.
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Yossi Harpaz: So I'm very excited to to speak with iOS speaking from Tel Aviv. It's 10pm here right now when I'm going to be giving a brief presentation.
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Yossi Harpaz: Of my book and I'm really looking forward to our Rogers wretches comments and to your comments and questions. So the book is called the citizenship to porno nationality, as the global asset and this basically starts with legal change. So just one second.
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Yossi Harpaz: So, for
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Yossi Harpaz: The legal change is the changing relation of countries to towards citizenship. For most of the 20th century countries did not permit their citizens to hold more than one
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizenship and there were international treaties and attempts by countries to prevent dual citizenship, which was seen as a very problematic.
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Yossi Harpaz: Status since the 1990s. This situation has been changing very rapidly as dozens of countries, change the laws to permit dual citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: And what you see in this graph here, the light blue bar shows the percentage of countries in different world regions that permitted a dual nationality in 1990 the yellow bar is the percentage of countries in those regions in
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Yossi Harpaz: Promoting citizenship in 2016. And what you see is a very dramatic change from something that only 20 30% of countries in different regions are permitted to
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Yossi Harpaz: A new global law. We're over 80% of countries in Europe and the Americas are permitted their citizens to hold dual citizenship. So this might look like a technical
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Yossi Harpaz: technical changes small change that only affects a small number of people but I became very curious about this as I was working on my dissertation research this book came out of my dissertation work at Princeton University.
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Yossi Harpaz: With the address dimmer is my main advisor and I became curious about the implications of the rise of dual citizenship. Basically what happens to the institution of national membership when the basic laws.
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Yossi Harpaz: Change when it changes from a status that is exclusive one person can belong to only one country or can have ties to any one country to a situation where people can have ties to multiple countries. So the question is, what are the
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Yossi Harpaz: Sociological we're out the, the economic, what are the political implications world implications on identity. When citizenship changes from payments from being an exclusive relationship to being something that can be collected and accumulate and
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Yossi Harpaz: I won't keep you in suspense and I'll tell you right away. What is the main thrust with my argument, and that is that once people can
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Yossi Harpaz: Have more than one citizenship, they begin to treat it in a much more strategic way the possibility to have multiple citizenships creates the possibility of accumulating
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Yossi Harpaz: citizenships even when one does not identify with the country of citizenship, even if one does not intend to emigrate to that country.
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Yossi Harpaz: And citizenship becomes an asset and this whole concept of citizenship as an asset refers to the differences in value between citizenship. So people will be motivated to acquire citizenship from a country that is of higher value than the citizenship that they already hope so. The
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Yossi Harpaz: As I during my research is I collected more and more statistical data and interview data on the on
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Yossi Harpaz: The way people actually used dual citizenship and acquire dual citizenship. I came to realize that global inequality and citizenship value.
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Yossi Harpaz: Is the main force that is driving a demand for citizenship and shaping the way people use it and I live the model.
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Yossi Harpaz: That divides the world citizenship into three tiers of value and this is based purely on practical value. I'm not saying what is
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Yossi Harpaz: Good or bad more not moral just describing the practical usefulness of different nationalities to different people. And I'm just showing the results of the model, I can spend in the Q AMP. A we're interested in how I built basically the idea is that you have four dimensions of citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: economic opportunities.
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Yossi Harpaz: security, democracy and travel freedom and when you
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Yossi Harpaz: Take into account these different dimensions, then you can see how the worlds countries are divided into three tiers. The top tier of our Western European and North American countries press Japan, Korea,
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Yossi Harpaz: Australia, New Zealand 30 which includes most Asian and African countries in the middle tier one countries that kind of in the middle of the global distribution and this includes most Eastern European countries.
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Yossi Harpaz: Latin American countries or so, Israel, the United Arab Emirates Malaysia and several other countries and basically
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Yossi Harpaz: My, my study of dual citizenship has focused on the on the middle tier. So the middle tier when we're looking at strategic dual citizenship, the middle tier is where the action is, so to speak, and
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Yossi Harpaz: A lot of the literature has looked at dual citizenship of immigrants living in Western countries people immigrate to Western Europe or North America.
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Yossi Harpaz: And I chose to focus on the overlooked phenomenon of dual citizenship in those military countries.
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Yossi Harpaz: Which is acquired with the express purpose of holding a second citizenship. It is not a byproduct of immigration people deliberately and strategically, try to get a second citizenship. So this is a phenomenon that shows
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Yossi Harpaz: Very clearly how people are strategizing their position within this global hierarchy and I call this
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Yossi Harpaz: Phenomenon compensatory citizenship. So compensatory citizenship is second citizenship from Western or you country, there is a wired by citizens of Middle Eastern countries and mostly in Latin America and Eastern Europe and they acquire this kind of citizenship by drawing on existing
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Yossi Harpaz: Is this true or ethnic ties. So these are regions that are historically and ethnically close to the EU countries and either last part of
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Yossi Harpaz: Gain empires or settled by Europeans, or people can also actively create this kind of ties to migrate migration and abroad. And when we look at dual citizenship in that context.
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Yossi Harpaz: We find very high demand for citizenship that is driven by very instrumental motivations that is divorced from the traditional assumptions of citizenship as identity and citizenship as
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Yossi Harpaz: Intention to reside in the country. And I call it compensatory citizenship, because the secondary citizenship, so the
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Yossi Harpaz: European citizenship, it is acquired. Let's say Italian citizen that is acquired by an Argentinian
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Yossi Harpaz: Or Hungarian citizenship is acquired by Serbia or Ukrainian or an Israeli requires German citizenship. This second citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: Is not necessarily intended to replace the original citizenship in the way that we usually think about. And when we think about immigration.
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Yossi Harpaz: But it isn't tended to make up for some of the citizenship deficit in the country of residence to provide more security to provide a little passport to provide to provide a broader opportunities.
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Yossi Harpaz: And in my study I tried to cover the
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Yossi Harpaz: Three main pathways to compensatory citizenship. So these are not only pathways, but these are the demographically most significant
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Yossi Harpaz: pathways to this kind of dual citizenship. So the first one draws on ancestry, you have European countries that are a historical centers of migration like Italy and Spain that
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Yossi Harpaz: Allow
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Yossi Harpaz: The descendants of immigrants to require citizenship and these can be people whose ancestors left Italy 100 years ago hundred 20 years ago and they can still require talent citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: And there has been strong demand for this ancestry based citizenship, especially in South America, where you have more than two and a half million he people who require the Italian or Spanish or Portuguese
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Yossi Harpaz: dual citizenship based on ancestry, also in Israel people require German or Polish skills that you based on ancestry.
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Yossi Harpaz: A second pathway is a mystery and you have countries like Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, offering dual citizenship to non residents based on ethnicity.
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Yossi Harpaz: So they also require that people demonstrate their ethnic identity or the language skills in order to get the citizenship and you have more than 600,000 people who acquire this
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizenship from EU countries in countries that are outside of the EU and a third pathway and very interesting one is a strategic birth and this pertain specifically to our countries with
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Yossi Harpaz: Us. Sorry. So right of soil citizenship, where virgin territory automatically are guaranteed citizenship. So talking about mostly about the US and Canada.
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Yossi Harpaz: And this involves people coming in from other countries, leaving birth in the US and then going back to their countries.
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Yossi Harpaz: And there have been over 140,000 strategic US citizens in Mexico. This is the case in the state and many more in China, Turkey and other countries, and there'll be a number of scholars that have been doing
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Yossi Harpaz: Work on that. So these are the general contours of this phenomena. The
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Yossi Harpaz: Three largest takeaways there are other parties to compensatory citizenship, maybe the most interesting one is cylinders you buy investment but which is just just these are paying some
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Yossi Harpaz: Money and getting citizenship, but I focus on these three and I took a rep.
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Yossi Harpaz: Study cases that represent each of these three pathways. So I stayed in citizenship in Israel. So this is citizenship is acquired by people whose parents and grandparents left Europe.
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Yossi Harpaz: In the 30s, 40s, 50s and are now are requiring citizenship. I looked at Hungarian citizenship in Serbia or Hungary's in the EU.
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Yossi Harpaz: And Serbia is not in there is ethical theory, my body in Serbia and I looked at US citizenship in Mexico. Now originally in the abstract. They said I was going to focus on the Mexican case but
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Yossi Harpaz: I. They told me I have to make the presentation 20 minutes so I'm not going to focus on any case I'm going to give up and run my have eight minutes left, so I'm going to give a very briefly. I'm going to say
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Yossi Harpaz: A little bit about the commonalities between the case and the what I found was that in spite of the huge differences between
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Yossi Harpaz: In these countries in terms of geography three continents history, culture, the different pathways that produce untouchability for dual citizenship, we see a lot of commonality.
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Yossi Harpaz: Between those cases. So I'm going to be talking very briefly about some of these are common features in the way that people acquire citizenship in the way that people use citizenship and in the meaning of dual citizenship just
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Yossi Harpaz: Something about this photo that you have here the guy with the mustard colored tie the second from the left.
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Yossi Harpaz: Some of you may recognize him. This is Victor Oban the Prime Minister of Hungary.
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Yossi Harpaz: And the guy holding a baby in his arms is the 1 million Hungarian citizen that was created on the basis of a law that was initiated by Obama to provide dual citizenship to ethnic
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Yossi Harpaz: Hungarians Dimmick outside Hungary. So this is celebrated in Budapest. And so you see here that the government is very actively in Hungary is very actively promoting this kind of dual citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: So something about the similarities between the the cases about acquisition. The, the common theme that I found across these cases is commodification of citizenship. So once dual citizenship becomes available. There are
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Yossi Harpaz: There is a growing
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Yossi Harpaz: Tendency of people to treat it as
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Yossi Harpaz: As an acid. And there, there is always a kind of
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Yossi Harpaz: Small industry of service providers that provide citizenship related services and they have a strong motivation to actually reframe citizenship as a marketable good and to promote its acquisition. So what you see above is a is an ad that promotes
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Yossi Harpaz: Giving birth in the US to Latinos is an imbecile. And it says,
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Yossi Harpaz: The text on the right, bottom right there says a bagel and to be available to me that the degree when I'm home data. So give your ability, the ability to live a better life. So these are the benefits of giving birth in the US, why you see below so
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Yossi Harpaz: Is a Hungarian so they're being doctors and clinics that have been promoting our strategic growth in the US. I did not actually
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Yossi Harpaz: Managed to contact these clinics directly. I interviewed people who are acquiring citizenship for the children in this way I can talk about it more in the Q AMP a
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Yossi Harpaz: The second photo shows a Hungarian language class in Serbia. So basically, the Hungarian citizenship in Serbia was intended only for ethical area to speak Hungarian
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Yossi Harpaz: But because Hungary's in your country and Serbia is not you have thousands of ethnic certs who actually embarked on studying Hungarian just considered one of the most difficult languages in the world in order to be eligible for you, citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: And get this passport. And this is a really striking example I took this photo, a
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Yossi Harpaz: In a more in central that a bit and the sign says you to deserving weekend basketball. And this was set up by la vista is promoting both of these citizenship, so
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Yossi Harpaz: And trying to get people to apply for citizenship. So here really citizenship is being reframed by these providers as a good that is actually sold in the mall.
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Yossi Harpaz: So this is one area that we see the marketing of citizenship as a kind of commodity about the uses. There have been a lot of diverse uses and I cannot discuss them with any detail here, but what I'm going to say
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Yossi Harpaz: Very briefly, is that the users have dual citizenship are not necessarily condition on being resident in the country of citizenship, so apparently
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Yossi Harpaz: There are many ways in which citizenship can be useful.
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Yossi Harpaz: Even if you don't live in the country of citizenship and
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Yossi Harpaz: Some of the most prominent ways are first of all as an insurance policy, and this was very prevalent in the
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Yossi Harpaz: In the Israel case and in the in the Mexican case where people
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Yossi Harpaz: felt that they had better
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Yossi Harpaz: They had this option will European basketball with US citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: A second use of citizenship is to increase global mobility European passport allows vulnerability and vulnerability across borders also functions as a kind of status symbol.
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Yossi Harpaz: And finally I'm going through this very quickly. I'd be happy to elaborate more in the q&a. Finally, the
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Yossi Harpaz: Availability of dual citizenship creates a kind of a revaluation of values and changes the meaning of citizenship. I mean, changes the meaning of citizenship or maybe you could say it is reflective of the change that has already happened.
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Yossi Harpaz: But, but it says something about the way people perceive citizenship and here I want to state right away that the percentage of people who actually hold your citizenship is small, we're talking about a 2% in a global sample that I had
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Yossi Harpaz: 10% in a country like Israel, which is the country with highest prevalence of dual citizenship. So this is a small population.
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Yossi Harpaz: But the kind of additives that they express are indicative of financial error, especially because they are allowed by law, and they're not subject to a lot of criticism, so
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Yossi Harpaz: In some of these in all three of these cases, we see a change in the meaning of good citizenship from something that is abominable and problematic and stigmatized.
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Yossi Harpaz: To something something that you've seen in a positive way even code. So the maybe the most extreme example is that of a German citizenship in Israel. So, for
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Yossi Harpaz: Several decades after the Holocaust requiring German citizen cheap for German origin Jews was seen as an abomination is an outrage.
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Yossi Harpaz: Today, the German passport is not only legitimate, but it's actually considered something very cool to have a status symbol of more broadly, the kind of attitudes that I
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Yossi Harpaz: Found in my interviews was
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Yossi Harpaz: A view of citizenship is property. So people who are discussing citizenship with
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Yossi Harpaz: Terms in metaphors that are drawn from the world of properties. Especially true
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Yossi Harpaz: For Mexico in Israel, it's really different in the Serbian case, but especially in Mexico in Israel.
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Yossi Harpaz: We see in Israel people talking about the European citizen cheap as restitution. Right. So as a kind of property restitution.
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Yossi Harpaz: We see in Israel and in Mexico people talking about citizenship as a gift. So Mexicans invest $20,000 in giving birth in the US because they want to provide it to the gift to the children, they will not benefit from it themselves.
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Yossi Harpaz: People compare the second citizenship for us or US citizenship to luxury product and people talk about it as a kind of investment in the future. So overall, the kind of attitude is something that I call the sovereign individual. So the idea is that
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Yossi Harpaz: People, the people that I interview and this may be indicative of our broader pattern.
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizen see the the realm of citizenship and national membership as a legitimate domain for maximizing utility. They felt that it was their right to decide and pick the citizenship. That would be the most beneficial to them and to conclude what I
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Yossi Harpaz: What I find in general is changing the meaning of citizenship from an ascribed status, something that one is born with and fixed throughout the individual's life or can only be changed with great difficulty.
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Yossi Harpaz: Into the cheat stance that is flexible, that can be changed and during the residuals a lifetime to they're striving.
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Yossi Harpaz: Second point is we see States strategically recruiting citizens without requiring residents or exclusively. I did not talk about the state perspective here and I can talk about it in the Q AMP a
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Yossi Harpaz: And in the individual perspective we seek to interesting things. First of all, that people increasingly see citizenship, not just in terms of an individual dynamic relationship. So the other relationship with their nation really belong, but also his position within a global
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Yossi Harpaz: Rating that if given the opportunity they can try it upgrade the position and the second point is that this is derived from the first point that people
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Yossi Harpaz: treat their second citizenship instrumental because it's seen as an asset, not necessarily an indicator of identity. So the basic point is that
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Yossi Harpaz: The permission to flourish have dual citizenship is creating an opportunity for people to treat citizenship in a more strategic and instrumental way and I will stop here.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Terrific. And so I'm going to turn the floor over to Roger is Rebecca for a comment.
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Rogers Brubaker: All right. Thank you very much. Roger and Yossi. In recent years, a small but growing literature has developed a global perspective on citizenship as an instrument of social closure.
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Rogers Brubaker: that undergirds massive global inequalities in life chances in global perspective.
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Rogers Brubaker: Citizenship functions as an immense system of social classification that assigns people to polities based on the moral the arbitrary accidents of birth.
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Rogers Brubaker: As such, it binds the vast majority of the world's population to the state to which they were initially assigned at birth.
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Rogers Brubaker: So while we often think of our world is characterized by unprecedented transporter mobility. In fact, only about 3% of the world's population live outside the country of their birth and fewer than half of these are south north
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Rogers Brubaker: Migrants. This is a large number. In absolute terms. And it's obviously large enough to generate a massive political reaction.
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Rogers Brubaker: In many countries, but it's a very small number in relation to the number of those who would seek
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Rogers Brubaker: Work well being, or security in prosperous and peaceful countries if they were free to do so, but who are routinely and for the most part, and visibly excluded simply by virtue of their nationality citizens.
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Rogers Brubaker: Now this perspective on citizenship as social closure.
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Rogers Brubaker: And on the vast differences in the value of the world's citizenships in terms of the security rights, economic opportunities and mobility opportunities they provide is one of the starting points of the oceans book.
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Rogers Brubaker: The other starting point is the increasingly relaxed attitude of States towards dual citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: In recent decades, and in connection with this, the specific initiatives undertaken by a number of states to make citizenship available to certain trends border populations with specific historical connections to the state.
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Rogers Brubaker: These factors together have created a new opportunity structure and you'll see shows and rich and consistently interesting detail how differently positioned groups have responded to this opportunity structure.
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Rogers Brubaker: Yes, these case studies are rich and interesting precisely because they bring into focus a range of complexities and ambiguity. These
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Rogers Brubaker: These complexities stand in a certain tension. I think with the overall argument of the book which characterizes the acquisition of transport or citizenship as a strategy of global upward mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: So I want to focus my comments on this tension which comes out most clearly in his discussion of illegal Mexicans and Israeli Ashkenazi
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Rogers Brubaker: But before I discuss these case studies. I want to push Yossi a little bit on the evidence that he marshals in his theoretical chapter
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Rogers Brubaker: In support of his general argument that the demand for non resident dual citizenship in EU countries is driven by practical and instrumental rather than identity and sentimental concerns.
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Rogers Brubaker: You'll see argues that this holds both were citizenship is offered to transport a co ethnics as in the Hungarian case and we're citizenship is offered to descendants of immigrants as in Italy and Spain.
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Rogers Brubaker: I think the argument is basically sound, and I think it's supported with good data, but I think it's also overstated, at least in the Hungarian case.
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Rogers Brubaker: You'll see notes that the share of trans border Hungarian speakers acquiring Hungarian citizenship is extremely high in Ukraine and Serbia.
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Rogers Brubaker: Where you citizenship opens the door to valuable work and resettlement opportunities and it's extremely low in North America. And this is clear and strong support for his instrumental argument.
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Rogers Brubaker: But demand is also quite high in Romania SF
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Rogers Brubaker: For 40% of the Hungarian speaking population had applied for Hungarian citizenship versus less than 2% in North America, it's true that the flat fraction of those applying is even higher in Serbia about 60% as a
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Rogers Brubaker: But the Serbian figure is at least somewhat inflated by the fact that as Yossi shows in his case study.
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Rogers Brubaker: A non trivial number of people who are not counted as Hungarian speakers in the census have been studying Serb Hungarian in order to apply for citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: The high demand for Hungarian citizenship in Romania poses a challenge for Yossi instrumentalist argument.
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Rogers Brubaker: Romania has been an EU member since 22,007 so the material incentives for acquiring Hungarian citizenship have been minimum
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Rogers Brubaker: Now, it's true as Yossi points out that certain transitional restrictions unfold labor market access for Romanians were not lifted until 2014
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Rogers Brubaker: But many prosperous EU countries opened their labor markets to Romanians well before then.
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Rogers Brubaker: And migration from Romania to EU destinations grew much more rapidly before 2014 when the transitional restrictions were still in place. Then after 2014
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Rogers Brubaker: Additional evidence suggesting minimal material incentives for applicants from Romania comes from a qualitative study that you'll see himself sites.
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Rogers Brubaker: The study was based on interviews with people who had gained non resident Hungarian citizenship in Serbia and Romania, as well as other countries.
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Rogers Brubaker: And it found that pragmatic concerns were indeed utterly central and openly acknowledged in Serbia, this is precisely what Yossi.
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Rogers Brubaker: Found as well for these applicants, at least the younger ones, among them the opportunity to work or move abroad, of course, not too hungry but to Germany or Sweden, for example, is crucial.
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Rogers Brubaker: And EU citizenship clearly compensates for the limitations of Serbian citizenship, precisely in line with Yossi his argument.
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Rogers Brubaker: But the pagoda new study found that the pragmatic concerns were completely peripheral in Romania.
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Rogers Brubaker: Were only a few of his interviewees mentioned any pragmatic benefits. So I'm not persuaded that the very strong interest in acquiring Hungarian citizenship on the part of transport or ethnic Hungarians in Romania.
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Rogers Brubaker: Can be accounted for by the pragmatic added value that Hungarian citizenship would bring over and above the EU citizenship benefits already provided by Romanian citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: And this case. This case matters because Romanian citizens account for 60% of all transporter applicants for Hungarian citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: So let me turn out to use these very interesting case studies of the elite Mexicans who give birth in the US and Israeli Ashkenazim WE SEE US citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: Is citizenship being pursued strategically. In these cases, undoubtedly, do these cases involve efforts to diversify assets and insure against political risks. Absolutely.
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Rogers Brubaker: But should we interpret the acquisition of transporters citizenship in these cases as a strategy of global upward mobility is the title of UCS
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Rogers Brubaker: Theoretical chapter. This seems to me less clear the elite Mexicans Yossi discusses are already at the top of the social hierarchy, they already have
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Rogers Brubaker: Intricate transnational ties with the US as Yossi puts it, and they regularly visit the US for shopping and vacations, but they have no desire to move to the US.
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Rogers Brubaker: They can enjoy a better quality of life in Mexico with luxuries like personal services and personal servants in high quality services are much more affordable.
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Rogers Brubaker: And this, you'll see himself underscores giving birth in the US, and I quote, as part of a broader pattern of border spanning status oriented consumption.
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Rogers Brubaker: It is a medium for performing and transmitting elite identity and values. Yes, for those who already have it American citizenship can provide a safe haven from violence linked to drug cartels.
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Rogers Brubaker: But as you'll see emphasizes the strategy of giving birth in the US yields no personal benefit to a parent.
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Rogers Brubaker: Who does not already hold US citizenship, at least not until the child turns 21 and can then in principle sponsor the parent for immigration purposes.
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Rogers Brubaker: Certainly securing American citizenship for one's children has some potential practical value for the kids, they can study
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Rogers Brubaker: In the US, without meeting visas, they can work during their studies, they can enjoy the flexibility of living on either side of the border, should they wish or need to do so.
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Rogers Brubaker: But for these well off. Parents strategically acquiring citizenship for one's children strikes me, not as a strategy of upward mobility, but as a strategy of intergenerational class reproduction.
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Rogers Brubaker: It's a form of prudent asset stewardship for the elite a strategy for transmitting their already privileged position to the next generation in a manner that seeks to ensure against uncertainties and political risks.
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Rogers Brubaker: As for Israelis, you'll see his own account emphasizes the importance of non economic non practical motivations.
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Rogers Brubaker: Again, there's little interest in emigrating to a new country and where one does see a substantial migratory movement, notably to Berlin, it seems to involve less upward mobility than a desire among young creative types to enjoy the city's cosmopolitan cultural environment.
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Rogers Brubaker: As Yossi notes European citizenship is seen by Israelis as cool as a status symbol.
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Rogers Brubaker: Like American citizenship for elite Mexicans even citizenship can serve as an insurance policy against political risk for middle classes valleys.
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Rogers Brubaker: But this again seems to me not so much about global upward mobility as it is about prudent asset management.
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Rogers Brubaker: It's a strategy conditioned on yo sees account by a distinctive Jewish family habitus grounded in an acute sense of political vulnerability
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Rogers Brubaker: Part of the irony here is that the insurance strategy operates in both directions, while the European passport may offer insurance against political risk to Israelis.
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Rogers Brubaker: The availability of Israeli citizenship and the possibility of making alia at any time offers insurance against political risk to Jews in Europe, especially the Jews and France increasingly concerned about anti semitic attacks.
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Rogers Brubaker: The further irony. So this gets us away from Yossi book is that today's anti immigrant and specifically anti Muslim successor parties to Europe's historically anti semitic far right parties.
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Rogers Brubaker: Have been assiduously courting the votes of Jews in recent years, along with those of gays and women, claiming that these parties are best positioned
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Rogers Brubaker: To protect their rights against the putative civilization or threat from the supposedly intrinsically illiberal anti semitic homophobic and misogynist Islam.
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Rogers Brubaker: US citizenship, of course, also facilitates travel and education abroad for Israelis just as American citizenship does for Mexicans but Israelis conceptions of the potential uses and value of US citizenship strike me as too vague and non specific to count as a project of upward mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: And you'll see his own interview data point to a more status marketing strategy of distinction, than to a project of upward mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: One interview we explicitly characterize the European passport.
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Rogers Brubaker: And I quote as like a luxury article that you buy a fine watch or a laptop computer, you will not use all of its features. Maybe you'll never perhaps it will never use more than five or 10% of its capacities, but you were willing to pay extra for the potential
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Rogers Brubaker: Now all of this makes me wonder whether the acquisition of EU citizenship for Israelis is more about outward mobility then about upward mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: Perhaps one could think of it as a device that permits young and already privileged Israeli Ashkenazim to escape more easily. The physically and politically constricted space of Israel with it's oppressive nationalism.
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Rogers Brubaker: And to reclaim the kind of cosmopolitan identity and orientation that was so strongly stigmatized by Zionism.
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Rogers Brubaker: Outward rather than upward mobility seems to be critical also for the perhaps 300,000 Hong Kong residents who hold Canadian citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: Or the 3 million Hong Kong residents who hold the status of British nationals overseas 350,000 of whom old British national overseas passports.
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Rogers Brubaker: And if we were to end up facing the prospect of four more years of Trump
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Rogers Brubaker: A prospect happily receiving I suspect that some already privileged Americans might develop a newfound interest in EU citizenship again as an instrument of outward rather than upward global mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: Of course you'll see is fundamental point remains valid, namely a second citizenship is a valuable resource and people respond to changing opportunities structures in pursuing it.
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Rogers Brubaker: But in cases where that resource is employed in the service of consolidating and protecting elite status transmitting that status to the next generation.
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Rogers Brubaker: And ensuring against risks and uncertainties. I'm not sure it's best described as a strategy of upward mobility.
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Rogers Brubaker: So I think there's a bit of a tension between the simple straightforward story set forth in the theoretical chapter and the more complex stories that emerge.
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Rogers Brubaker: In the three case focus chapters. I don't see this as a problem. It's a sign rather of the richness of the book that it can't be so neatly encapsulated in a single short formulation
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Rogers Brubaker: I've used up my time. So let me very quickly pose to concluding questions to see first
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Rogers Brubaker: In his discussion of Mexico, you'll see contrasts the elite Northerners on whom he focuses with another set of dual nationals.
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Rogers Brubaker: Who were born and raised in the US, the Mexican immigrant families from lower class and rural backgrounds, but who then return to Mexico when their parents were deported or voluntarily return
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Rogers Brubaker: This group you suggest lacks the resources, the money, education and connections to derive benefits from their status as dual nationals.
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Rogers Brubaker: I'm not sure this is quite right. Of course, American born children have deportees face all kinds of difficulties, but wouldn't their American citizenship when they come of age, nonetheless, serve as a valuable resource.
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Rogers Brubaker: Secondly, and lastly, does the proliferation of strategically acquired dual citizenship really Harold the rise of the sovereign individual as he as he argues in his conclusion.
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Rogers Brubaker: Yes, like many other statuses that were once ascribed and they're now, at least in part, achieved one thinks of religion language, ethnicity, race, gender, or sex.
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Rogers Brubaker: Citizenship to is increasingly open to choice and change yet as Yossi notes in this presentation. And in the book. Well, the number of dual citizens is large in absolute terms they remain a small minority 2% by his calculation.
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Rogers Brubaker: dual citizenship and the conditions under which individuals can take advantage of it depends on state policies.
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Rogers Brubaker: States can tolerate a certain amount of strategic behavior with respect to citizenship, but they can also change the rules if that behavior is perceived as damaging to stay in interest Yossi mentioned the ways in which the US.
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Rogers Brubaker: Has begun to aggressively seek to tax the global income of US citizens, leaving many Americans living abroad to renounce their citizenship.
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Rogers Brubaker: And as he notes, we may be likely to see more suspicion toward dual citizenship, both from governments and from populist movements.
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Rogers Brubaker: I don't foresee any major recycle ization of citizenship. But I do wonder to what extent it's warranted to speak of the rise of the sovereign individual
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Rogers Brubaker: I'll stop here. The book is full of interesting observations and arguments and there's lots more we can talk about. But there should be enough to get us started.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Terrific. So thank you so much for a
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Such a sparkling comment. So you'll see. Do you want to quickly respond. And then we can open up to the audience.
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Yossi Harpaz: Here are five minutes or 10 minutes or
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Take the time you need
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Yossi Harpaz: Okay, so thank you so much audience for this curve reading of the book and for raising very, very interesting points and questions. I'm going to try and be very brief because I also want to open up for questions, so
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Yossi Harpaz: The first point that you raised is that I'm
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Yossi Harpaz: Them, Gary. In case is less instrumentals less clear instrumental relative to the other cases, and I would definitely agree on that. I agree with you on that point.
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Yossi Harpaz: One engine use, you mentioned support for one is research which shows this, um, I'd say two things, two very quick things about this. First of all, it is actually possible to one of the interesting ways in which
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Yossi Harpaz: The instrumental in practical motivations, can, can they can coexist within the same family, for example.
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Yossi Harpaz: You have, in general, the older people were much more sentimental and had a much more expressive interested in giving citizenship and the younger people more instrumental but often these people were
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Yossi Harpaz: In the same family and applying together. So you had motivating you had applications that were often triggered by the instrument and motivations of the younger generation. And then the older people went along, and their motivation was mostly sentimental, but
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Yossi Harpaz: Of course, it's a it's very clearly much less directly transactional and instrumental as in the Israeli Mexican okay this is an about Romania, so
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Yossi Harpaz: Yeah, in
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Yossi Harpaz: This case it's not fulfilled competing with global
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Yossi Harpaz: About
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Yossi Harpaz: The point you make about Israel and Mexico. So is it truly a global upward mobility or is it more
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Local
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Yossi Harpaz: Strategy of elite consolidation. So I would say that that is both. And basically what my what I found through this study is to what degree.
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Yossi Harpaz: Outward global ties are crucial to social stratification, especially in countries that are not first tier so countries that are really here or
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Yossi Harpaz: third tier countries having some ties to Europe or to the US and this can be ties of tourism consumption education origin, the citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: This is a really crucial part of the social stratification and this also explains the very strong status aspect of dual citizenship in both these cases. So I would say that
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Yossi Harpaz: It is
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Yossi Harpaz: It is both and the you mentioned Americans who might now be already be more interested in getting your citizenship actually have statistics on us Jews.
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Yossi Harpaz: Getting interested in German citizenship and you see the rise in interest after 2008 and when the trumpeters even
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Yossi Harpaz: greater interest in ancestry with dual citizenship, I would say it is best fit within the framework because it shows the relationship between value of one's own citizenship and interest in dual citizenship. So it is a response to a devaluation of one's own citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: About the
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Yossi Harpaz: Okay, I skipped at the Mexican question for now and just about you. Last point does the proliferation of dual citizenship. She's inherit the rise of the sovereign
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizen so yeah I agree that the sovereignty that the sovereign citizen kind of described is subjective aspect, the ability to impose restrictions and citizenship remains in the hands of the state.
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Yossi Harpaz: And we have seen the worst get much tougher on tax obligations and people have been giving up their citizenship in Europe and Canada. What is going on.
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Yossi Harpaz: And other related development is since the English possible terrorist attacks of the last couple of years, these countries have renewed citizenship stripping which is which targets are specifically for citizens because
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Yossi Harpaz: There is a global norm that you cannot leave a person without any citizenship. So this is another attack on the sovereignty of the dual citizen. So definitely, the idea was to highlight the subjective aspect.
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Yossi Harpaz: And the new perception of the relations between the division of the stake, not the actual legal reality which remains very clearly tilted in in favor of the state.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Okay. Excellent. Thank you so much.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, so let's begin with a question from
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: David Abraham who asks that he suggests that we should consider that state Neil mercantilism is compatible with the trend that you have been describing, for example.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Israel in China, no longer considered emigrants or dual nationals as deserters or losers, but rather as assets deployed abroad as some kind of a transnational network. So to what extent that this shift is this consistent with the trend that you've been describing
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Yossi Harpaz: Could one thing. Absolutely. So
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Go ahead.
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Yossi Harpaz: So, so
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Yossi Harpaz: Yeah, so I'm speaking in very, very broad terms of making very broad generalizations. But in general, you could say that.
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Yossi Harpaz: We
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Yossi Harpaz: Are in generated say that there has been since the end of the Cold War and the processes that are usually called globalization.
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Yossi Harpaz: The perception of individually is much less focused on security and much more focused on the potential economic benefits that can be routed to the
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Yossi Harpaz: Economy and to the state and from that perspective, we're citizens switch from being a suspect category when viewed from the security perspective and become actually beneficial categories so
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Yossi Harpaz: This explains the the shift towards embracing their aspirations, which is seen many countries, you can you see it resembling countries that are
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Yossi Harpaz: Relatively low income and we'll ask for us already had a big financial say, and they've been pushing for dual citizenship, but in countries that would, that was not so strong. These countries are actively harvesting the diaspora. So the right person. She's definitely related
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Terrific. We have a hand raised by David Jacobson. David, do you want to pose your question.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: And that certain whether he's still on or whether we have a technical problem. So let me ask a
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Question.
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David Jacobson: And yummy now.
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David Jacobson: Great. Okay. So yeah, I know I went to do is your see
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David Jacobson: So you you
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David Jacobson: You're looking at the problem with the level of the individual and and in a very interesting way. But my question. So compliments Rogers.
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David Jacobson: Someone compliments on my Rogers comments which is the is the linkage to institutions.
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David Jacobson: And this, I think if you can get to the question or institutions, you can get to the larger implications of what you're describing beyond this population.
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David Jacobson: Of two or 3% so I'll make one comment and follow with a question. So the comment is that, you know, if we look at the the emergence of dual citizenship as a legal phenomenon.
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David Jacobson: In the mid to late 1990s, particularly in the European Union and Europe generally what we are seeing is its emergence in the context of human rights. And so if you look at
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David Jacobson: Changes in EU law about nationality. The language is very idealistic. Actually I it's true, then countries like Turkey and in Mexico quickly becomes more strategic on a government level as well as an individual level. And I think that if
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David Jacobson: You consider that aspect of it, then we can begin to see, you know, how one aspect of how begins to tie up institutionally
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David Jacobson: And in your own presentation you talk off the language of some of these dual citizens as the right to pick the most beneficial.
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David Jacobson: Citizenship language of restitution and notions of shifting from an ascribed status to an achievement status.
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David Jacobson: All this you know all this resonates in terms of this human rights language which can have a sense of affinity with the commodification you're talking about that legally
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David Jacobson: Institutionally is distinct from this individual level you're describing about and I think can contextualize the idea of the sovereign individual because
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David Jacobson: All of this is happening in different institutional context. And my question would be how changes citizenship itself beyond the two or 3% of people you're talking about. You may have this very
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David Jacobson: Instrumental strategic view and if to, to put it very simply, if we view citizenship in some
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David Jacobson: I don't know if traditional is the right word, but in some more conventional sentences dealing with
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David Jacobson: Issues of, you know, the horizontal issues of community integration, etc. And the vertical issues of civic politics of the relationship of rules and rules.
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David Jacobson: How this changes citizenship itself in that sense. And again, pushing for the institutional beyond the views of the individuals themselves. I think can also
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David Jacobson: Draw out further
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David Jacobson: The implications of what you're describing
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, thank you.
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Yossi Harpaz: Thank you so so you actually raised a lot of interesting points and I cannot
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Yossi Harpaz: Say something about each of them, but I mentioned two things related to the points that you raised. First of all, the, the connection to human rights.
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Yossi Harpaz: Are a is definitely this is there was a strong connection actually do I use this term sovereign individual as a paraphrase of term that click vine has
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Yossi Harpaz: Has used in his book about the duration of dual citizenship in the US where the ID was used to strip citizenship of people who emigrated or who voted in other countries, and there is a Supreme Court ruling from
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Yossi Harpaz: Vs raw ask where are
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Yossi Harpaz: The Supreme Court of the US.
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Yossi Harpaz: Sits down this principle that the that you cannot strip people have their citizenship, because people are part of the each individual citizen is in fact on hold sovereignty, so
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Yossi Harpaz: This concept is actually a legal concept with us. That is particularly important, the sovereign citizen. So in Europe. It comes from a different tradition of of human rights, but there is
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Yossi Harpaz: Certainly this element. But I would say that when you look at the actual decisions that governments make
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Yossi Harpaz: I would say that these setting the US aside for now. I would say that are the human rights principles they create an environment in which it is
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Yossi Harpaz: More legitimate to come up with good citizenship additional legislation when you look at actual countries and natural governments and the decisions that they make.
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Yossi Harpaz: They are almost always strategic they might have very different goals they might be about integrating immigrants, including immigrants getting voters. This is a major consideration, but that the human rights is often a kind of
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Yossi Harpaz: legal environment.
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Yossi Harpaz: And about your second point is about how does this change in citizenship shape change do or traditional understanding of citizenship as horizontal equal egalitarian principle of blogging and I think one of the interesting things that the
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Yossi Harpaz: Emerged when you have a population of citizens and especially when you have good citizens were already pretty privileged and get another citizenship that privileges them even more is that some of the imagined unit us nations comes into question so
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Yossi Harpaz: If you are European origin Israeli or a Mexican or are Brazilian you can you are already privileged and you can convert this privilege into an actual set of concrete rights from European countries. So in this sense, this
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Yossi Harpaz: Potentially, and also if you are so ritual elites are much more likely to be able to acquire US citizenship through strategic birth or investment visa and so on. So this does create the the potential for
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Yossi Harpaz: underline this horizontal
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Terrific, thank you question from James latke how my dual citizenship energize efforts to go beyond place of birth as the most significant criteria for legitimacy do indigenous efforts to develop and use passports, providing sites.
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Yossi Harpaz: I don't know.
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Yossi Harpaz: I'm not sure I understand the
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Alright, I don't know, James. If you want to
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: If you want to
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To elaborate if you're still on.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Let's wait a moment.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: All right, you can come back on change your send me a chat. Let me ask you another question. Let me ask you another question from Perry bloom.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Isn't it important to recognize that an individual can have strong ties or a strong relationship with more than one country, even if they only have citizenship in a single country. Why are you creating citizenship as a bright line distinction
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Yossi Harpaz: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Thanks, that's a great question. So one of the interesting things that I that I found in my research is actually that
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Yossi Harpaz: So we have this image, you know, if we just like to ask a layperson to imagine a person with dual citizenship, the image will be someone who is
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Yossi Harpaz: What is called like third culture kid right we someone who belongs to two cultures in a relatively food way and
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Yossi Harpaz: Maybe Mexican and American or a Julian and French and so on. But what I found was that there are a lot of people who are actually and in a very concrete sense hold two
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Yossi Harpaz: Identities even you could save it to national identities, people who are a second generation immigrants will have a very strong origin country identity.
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Yossi Harpaz: Many of them would not hold dual citizenship and in contrast, a large percentage of people who are formally dual citizens are actually are actually feel
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Yossi Harpaz: Just like model nationals, there is actually people who are
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Yossi Harpaz: And the cases we talked about Mexicans who just happen to be born in the US but grew up their entire lives in Mexico or Israelis whose grandparents happen to come from Poland.
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Yossi Harpaz: But there is really AND THEN, APPARENTLY, THERE IS REALLY. So, these people are formally dual citizens, but
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Yossi Harpaz: In terms of identity have very clear one nationally dirty, whereas many people who are really by national in terms of the culture and identity do not have dual citizenship and me not eligible for that. So I would really stress the differentiation
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Yossi Harpaz: Yeah, okay.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Let me try.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: To of course
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizenship is a is a bright boundary, because it's illegal category as Rogers has as we can about our citizenship is it's a binary legal category with very clear distinction between citizens and Don says
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, let me pose James Lucky's question one more time with some further elaboration. So he asked, initially, how might dual citizenship energize efforts to go beyond place of birth.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: As the most significant criteria for legitimacy and he then elaborates I'm concerned about how place of birth has become the single most criteria most critical criterion.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: For for right, including the right to move, which is so fundamental to being human and therefore to human rights.
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Okay.
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Yossi Harpaz: So,
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Yossi Harpaz: First of all, a place of birth is just one of the principles and as
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Yossi Harpaz: Again as Rogers wrote about in his seminal book, we have these two main principles. And actually, the more common principle is based on parents citizenship, rather than the individuals.
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Yossi Harpaz: Place of place of birth are about the second point about the right to move. So I would definitely agree that have been growing arguments among citizenship scholars, most notably a Dimitri culture of that.
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Yossi Harpaz: The most fundamental right of citizenship. The most fundamental core aspect of citizenship today should not be sincerely as
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Yossi Harpaz: Civil rights or social rights or political rights in the way that th marchers wrote about this, but about the territorial rights about the writers both the right to enter a territory, the rights to be present in the territory and not to be deported. So
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Yossi Harpaz: I would definitely agree that decent become for our aspects of citizenship, however way it is allocated.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay, I'm a background question why do Romanians one Hungarian citizenship.
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Yossi Harpaz: Oh, because they are ethnically, are they are actively Hungarian they are a minority that
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Yossi Harpaz: It's so suppose, probably we studied this his main argument and maybe Rogers actually done his own research about underwritten Romania, so he knows a lot more about this.
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Yossi Harpaz: Than I do, but in support his book The main point would be, I would say status. So in a sense of express both expressing their Hungarian identity and not feeling like a second class on minority ethics compelled to the Romanian majority.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Over the elaboration, but they they are both you EU members. So what is the benefit to handle rights.
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Yossi Harpaz: Yeah, like I said, the benefit is international it is within the nation. It gives the members of the minority that is
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Yossi Harpaz: Discriminated innocence. It gives them equal status and it gives you an opportunity to express their identity as Hungarians, it gives them a sense of historical justice because they they can belong to Hungary, which many of them would prefer over belonging to me.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. Question from Irina 11. I was wondering whether you see a link between states attempts to assert their sovereignty and citizens efforts to do. So, that is how
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: How is into how our individuals desire for dual citizenship, driven by state behavior around borders territorial integrity deportation D nationalization etc.
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How individuals is
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: It. So is there a link between the individual strategies you described in their book and states efforts to assert their sovereignty.
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Yossi Harpaz: Right, so, so basically that the story that that is going on the stories. I'm trying to tell is a story that has a lot of unintended consequences. So countries governments to be more precise, they come up with these
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Yossi Harpaz: Citizenship schemes and individuals.
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Yossi Harpaz: Strategically trying to find
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Yossi Harpaz: loopholes that can be beneficial to them or try to if these are programs to its risks to them. They try and mitigate those those risks.
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Yossi Harpaz: So,
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Yossi Harpaz: I mean, these I would say that these aspects are just closely.
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Yossi Harpaz: Closely connected, but I think one of the
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Yossi Harpaz: Let me read the question.
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Yossi Harpaz: Can you be more specific, a specific example.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: I don't know. Let's see whether your Arena. If you're on the if you can, if you can, you're still on in the webinar if you can elaborate
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: This is the awkwardness of these remote sessions.
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Irina Levin: Hi. Oh, great can hear me. Um, I guess I was, you know,
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Irina Levin: I feel like the focus in the book from, from what I've heard. Now I look forward to reading it, but I haven't yet.
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Irina Levin: Is on kind of elites and their strategic use of it. And as I think that, you know, when we talk about elite being strategic. We know that that's very different when we talk from when we talk about people who are seen as
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Irina Levin: You know, vulnerable and certainly not have been as being strategic. So I was wondering, I guess, for both of those, you know the the populations that you focused on you know how
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Irina Levin: You see their efforts to get this as an insurance policy or as a gift or as a way to maximize potential
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Irina Levin: As being a response to the way that that states are kind of, you know, implementing their sovereignty, whether that is just around, like I said, is around borders or trying to really assert territorial integrity deport
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Irina Levin: Populations do nationalized popular populations. So this question of
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Irina Levin: Whether you know I think individuals see States acting, you know, kind of robustly around their sovereignty and they feel like
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Irina Levin: They're sort of forced into a situation where they have to act pretty strategically around their individual sovereignty as well. It's kind of what I was trying to get
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Okay.
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Yossi Harpaz: Um, yeah. So, I mean, the basic
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Yossi Harpaz: The basic situation is
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Yossi Harpaz: That states in governments create the framework and the kind of very
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Yossi Harpaz: Powerful
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Yossi Harpaz: set of circumstances, within which individuals can operate and individuals strategically or operate within those and this is to a large extent, are conditioned on their level of know how and their connections and it depends a lot on the resources that they already have, for example,
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Yossi Harpaz: Rogers, I mentioned the cases of the so we have two cases of our duel us nationals in in Mexico.
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Yossi Harpaz: We have these elite individuals whose parents give birth to them.
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Yossi Harpaz: Deliberately, they go, they go to the west. They give birth, they already know exactly what they're going to do they get the birth certificate. Then they go and get the passport. Then they register.
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Yossi Harpaz: Their Mexican citizen cheating the Mexican consulate in the in the silver. They just gave birth, then they would go to Mexico. We both citizenships completely are sorted out.
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Yossi Harpaz: In contrast, these children have difficulties. So these are us all children of Mexican immigrants who are undocumented in the US and then go deported.
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Yossi Harpaz: So they usually did not register their children as Mexicans when they are both in the US. And this is what explains the, the time of so if they get both and they follow the parents can be both of the children follow them and they don't have
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Yossi Harpaz: The Mexican citizenship, which puts them as at a disadvantage and it's hard for them to prove their American citizenship. So you just see a huge gap in terms of the bureaucratic.
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Yossi Harpaz: Know how of these populations of upper class and working class Mexicans. So this is just one example of the way that people are
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Yossi Harpaz: The degree of flexibility, a dual degree to the possibility of strategic behavior of visa V states depends on the pre existing resources and education, but also brokers that actually that actively for people of what they might
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Yossi Harpaz: What they might do.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Okay. All right. Terrific. So I think this is probably the time to bring our session to a close, I
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Do want to very much thank our two speakers, you'll see hundred person Rogers blue bag and want to note
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: That they are speaking to us from the other side of the Atlantic Rogers and Germany. Your see in Israel. And so I want to thank them for being willing to share their Friday evening.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: With us in Los Angeles and elsewhere in the United States. Thank you. Of course, everyone was joined us for this event. I want to remind you that we will meet at the same time, same place.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Next Friday. For discussion of a book by Shabaab watch your band immigration enforcement in the time of Trump. So thanks to our speakers.
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Roger Waldinger, UCLA: Thanks to colleagues and friends and CC is who are partnering with us in this adventure, and thanks to the audience. Have a great weekend. Perhaps by next Friday will have good news about our US election and until then all the best. Okay, thank you.
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Yossi Harpaz: Great, thank you. Thanks.