00:00

so i'm going to go ahead and introduce

00:02

our

00:03

um panelists um i'm marjorie foster

00:06

korean i'm the associate director of the

00:08

center for the study of international

00:10

migration

00:11

roger waldinger the director was

00:13

unfortunately not able to be here today

00:15

but has read and commented on the paper

00:17

and this is the second of our summer

00:21

sessions and it's an experiment to see

00:24

can we continue the community we built

00:26

this spring

00:27

through the summer and the evidence is

00:30

here on my screen

00:31

people are showing up even though we're

00:34

right in the middle of probably the

00:35

hardest point of the summer

00:38

so welcome to you all thank you for

00:40

showing up here on

00:42

zoom and hope you'll continue we have

00:44

one more session this summer

00:46

before we begin our fall series um and

00:49

today

00:50

we're really pleased to have a working

00:53

paper

00:53

that um toby tobias higbee from the

00:56

department of education

00:58

and gaspar rivera salgado from the labor

01:00

studies center

01:01

and ucla labor centers we'll um begin

01:05

by giving us a little overview of where

01:07

this

01:08

project uh comes from and where it's

01:10

heading with the larger

01:12

context of the project is then we'll

01:14

have comments from

01:16

chris milan um

01:19

and then we'll invite the authors to

01:22

respond to that

01:23

and then we'll open it to comments from

01:25

all of the panelists so

01:27

we would ask if you wouldn't mind

01:29

turning your um

01:30

at least mute your cells maybe even turn

01:34

your cameras off for the first part of

01:35

the presentation

01:37

and then we'll invite you in but if you

01:38

have questions at any point you can type

01:41

them in the chat

01:42

and we'll accumulate the questions and

01:44

make sure we address those

01:46

in after we've heard from the panelists

01:49

and then in the conversation you can

01:51

continue to use the chat

01:52

or the wave hand function or we have

01:56

um we've planned for an hour if we run

01:58

over a bit

01:59

that we could do that but we really look

02:02

forward to having a conversation about

02:03

this

02:05

this work so we'll start with chris and

02:07

i mean tobias and gaspar

02:10

thank you marjorie and thanks to roger

02:13

and chris

02:14

and uh sophia and all of you for

02:18

for coming uh i'm toby higby from the

02:20

history department and labor studies

02:22

and and um i'm just

02:26

uh gaspar and i have been working on

02:28

this project for a while so

02:29

i'll say a few words briefly because i

02:32

don't want to take up too much time

02:33

and and like gaspar speak as well just

02:36

briefly but this is our

02:37

something we've been working on uh over

02:40

the last 10 years

02:41

um we have been working with community

02:44

groups unions

02:45

uh labor-oriented community

02:47

organizations to collect

02:48

archives of the la

02:52

labor movement um you know originally

02:55

focusing mostly from the sort of

02:57

post-1986 period

02:59

uh and we began to feel like there's a

03:02

longer story

03:04

that we want to tell that goes beyond uh

03:06

back beyond 1986

03:08

and this is our first foray in in a

03:10

sense sketching out the

03:12

arc of that story and how the earlier

03:16

history of labor and immigrant rights

03:18

connects to

03:19

uh to the more well-known

03:22

upsurge of uh unions in the 1990s that

03:26

was focused on immigrant workers

03:28

um so you know we're sort of interested

03:31

in in uh a set of overlapping questions

03:34

as you can tell from the the paper

03:36

um it's it's in part about progressive

03:38

political coalitions

03:40

um it's it's about partly about law

03:43

and status and how unions

03:47

come to change their orientation towards

03:50

undocumented workers

03:52

and it's

03:56

also about the that question of

03:58

immigrant integration

04:00

and how unions function

04:03

at and in under what terms unions

04:05

function as

04:06

sort of integrating uh

04:09

institutions for new immigrants into a

04:12

society and the role that

04:14

the immigrants play in changing american

04:16

institutions kind of an

04:18

old old-time question in uh

04:21

migration history and uh and

04:24

immigration history gaspar do you want

04:27

to say

04:28

add anything to that no thank you that's

04:31

a

04:32

nice introduction and i think for me

04:35

it's in very

04:36

um interesting working together with

04:39

toby as a historian he brings

04:42

specific lenses and interests and some

04:45

of the early questions that we

04:48

pose really emerged from the archives

04:51

that we were getting we got the archives

04:52

from the justice for janitors

04:54

campaign we got the archives from the

04:56

united here local 11

04:58

from lane los angeles alliance for a new

05:00

economy and it was interesting that

05:03

the stories that we discovered there

05:06

uh pushed the timeline about what we

05:09

call

05:10

the labor

05:14

turn to organizing immigrants all the

05:18

way back to the 1970s and then we

05:20

started interviewing fox

05:22

so we had a one of the early interviews

05:24

that we had was with peter only

05:27

who was um an organizing director with

05:29

the justice for janitors and he was

05:31

telling us the story

05:32

about the 1970s so that opened up really

05:35

some interesting question for us and so

05:39

this project really is at the

05:40

intersection of what toby was saying

05:42

these

05:43

four or five um really uh

05:46

critical issues for us so one is about

05:49

questions about social movement

05:51

is there how did labor

05:55

became so prominent in l.a and

05:58

california politics

06:01

what happened here given the fact that

06:03

usually people don't think about uh

06:06

lay as a labor powerhouse

06:10

so the story that people were telling

06:12

was the turn the immigrant turn in the

06:13

1990s

06:15

but we're pushing back a little bit on

06:17

that timeline

06:18

to tell the story of organizers in the

06:20

1970s

06:22

and also the other interesting question

06:24

for us is how is it that

06:26

um immigrants were coming to la

06:29

um and been integrated in song to the

06:32

mainstream

06:33

institutions so people think about civic

06:36

participation

06:37

local governancy but we were looking at

06:40

unions as one of those mainstream

06:43

american institutions and we were very

06:45

interested about

06:46

how did that happen that um

06:50

with the history of labor in l.a unions

06:53

started really paying attention to

06:54

organizing immigrants so uh this paper

06:57

sort of uh tells the story

06:59

of some of the early organizers in the

07:00

1970s

07:02

but also we brought some of the other uh

07:04

interests and um

07:06

i don't know if you want to uh talk a

07:08

little bit about

07:10

um intellectuals in the movement and

07:13

and and coalition politics um just to

07:15

frame

07:16

the issues that we outlined in the paper

07:19

so i'm wondering if we should continue

07:20

with

07:21

comments from chris first um and then

07:23

come back and whatever reason to do

07:25

absolutely yeah absolutely all right

07:28

let's go ahead with

07:29

our commentator chris

07:33

great thank you um yeah i mean i want to

07:36

first thank

07:36

toby and espen for writing this this is

07:38

a really important and an

07:40

exciting project you're working on i'm

07:43

obviously super interested also in

07:45

researching the the history of latinos

07:47

in the labor movement of a particular

07:49

interest in immigrants

07:50

um because of my prior work and i think

07:53

the los angeles immigrant rights

07:55

movement itself is important to study

07:58

because i think it really sets the

08:00

template as you show for the rest

08:02

uh i would argue for the rest of the

08:03

country when it comes to organizing

08:06

undocumented immigrants and undocumented

08:09

immigrant activism

08:11

and there's a whole bunch of different

08:13

types of immigrant rights issues but i

08:14

think

08:15

for good or bad the way we understand

08:18

the immigrant rights movement

08:19

we're really talking about an

08:21

undocumented rights movement there's a

08:22

refugee rights there's asylum rights

08:25

you know but the way we both

08:26

academically and i think nationally

08:29

um you know we when we talk about

08:30

immigrant rights we're really thinking

08:32

of undocumented immigrant rights and i

08:34

think

08:35

this is really key the the paper you

08:38

have it covers a really key but

08:40

understudy time period

08:42

um so i look forward to assigning it in

08:44

my mega rights classes

08:45

once it's published um i think most of

08:48

the the

08:49

attempts at writing a quote-unquote

08:51

history of the american rights movement

08:53

i've seen them in

08:54

in book chapters or introductions

08:58

you know and i think walter nichols has

08:59

a new book uh which i haven't

09:01

had a chance to read it but from my

09:02

conversations with him i think it also

09:04

really kind of

09:05

starts in the in the 90s which is kind

09:07

of what you alluded to

09:09

in the beginning of your paper um so in

09:11

that sense i think this

09:12

uh this paper and your project in

09:14

general um was really important

09:16

right because it kind of reminds us that

09:19

you know

09:20

the migrant activism that we saw in los

09:22

angeles and

09:24

in the 90s and across the country in

09:26

2006 didn't occur in a vacuum

09:28

right they were pioneers um and early

09:31

attempts

09:32

at it um before decades before that

09:37

so i especially liked uh the long

09:40

overdue i think highlighting of bert

09:42

corona and

09:43

chola in terms of their roles of kind of

09:46

being pioneers and

09:49

arguably the godmothers and godfathers

09:51

of the

09:52

modern day migrant rights undocumented

09:54

american rights movement

09:56

um in the u.s um i did want to know

09:59

whether

09:59

and this is obviously a constraint given

10:02

the current situation

10:04

but if the casa archives and stanford

10:07

have they've been digitalized or not

10:09

because i was wondering if maybe you

10:11

could kind of get access to those and

10:13

and try to find a little bit more

10:15

details of

10:17

chole and bert's early interactions with

10:20

labor unions i remember having a

10:21

conversation with chole

10:23

so i knew chole i did not know bur but

10:26

you know her telling me that labor

10:28

unions would hire her and bur

10:29

on the side during campaign sometimes

10:31

before campaigns to fill things out and

10:33

go

10:34

talk to immigrants and factories and

10:35

other places so i'm wondering

10:37

how many notes did they take of that you

10:39

know were there any type of contracts

10:40

could they know somebody got paid for it

10:42

um i'm wondering if things like that

10:44

were in the casa archives up

10:46

at stanford um and then another thing

10:50

that i've been wondering

10:51

you know unfortunately i really one of

10:52

my biggest regrets is academic is that

10:55

uh in grad school and then i told toby

10:58

the story i

11:00

started trying to interview chola to do

11:01

a live history with her and i only

11:03

really got to do one interview

11:05

but in that interview she told me about

11:07

all these great documents and things she

11:08

had saved

11:10

and unfortunately we lost her last year

11:12

she

11:13

so i was wondering if anybody has access

11:15

out there to choles

11:16

family or um and it's the archives that

11:20

she had in in her garage which is where

11:22

she told me she had them you know maybe

11:23

there's a way we could kind of try to

11:24

reach out

11:25

um and see if we could as ucla um save

11:28

them and archive them and digitize them

11:30

as well

11:32

um because i think that would also

11:33

really help your stories you know she

11:35

she gave me examples of old flyers she

11:37

told me about and it didn't give me but

11:39

told me examples

11:40

of flyers she had and know your rights

11:43

cards that she developed in the i think

11:45

70s early 80s that they used

11:48

they would fly out to like new york or

11:49

the midwest to organize undocumented

11:52

people there

11:53

um this is before anybody else was even

11:54

talking about these kind of

11:56

know your rights cards um so i think

11:58

yeah it's one trying to get access to

12:00

the stanford archives with casa too

12:02

it would be great if we could get access

12:04

and get choles archives

12:07

to kind of tease out a little bit those

12:08

early attempts

12:10

of organizers and the link between

12:12

undocumented migrant

12:14

rights organizers and and unions um

12:17

in terms of the the corona and cholera

12:19

aspects of it

12:21

um another thing so i'm just going kind

12:23

of chronologically here just as i read

12:24

and things that

12:25

came up by the way um another thing that

12:27

kind of popped into my mind

12:29

which i guess a little controversial but

12:32

i was wondering if

12:33

what the possibility was of exploring um

12:36

uh the ufw more and elaborating more in

12:39

terms of the ufw

12:40

and and whether they had undocumented

12:43

members or not so i did an interview a

12:45

long time ago with dolores huerta when i

12:47

asked her about the question of

12:49

undocumented immigrants

12:50

um and you know she uh you know

12:53

obviously it's a touchy subject

12:55

um you know and she says like we were

12:57

against scabs this was a moment where we

12:59

were literally being killed

13:00

during strikes we were being beaten and

13:02

we were being killed

13:03

um and we were desperate and yeah you

13:05

know we didn't you know

13:07

we should never have worked with

13:09

immigration it was a different time

13:11

you know but she also pointed out she

13:12

goes but even then she goes

13:14

we probably had more undocumented

13:16

immigrants in the ufw

13:18

than any other organization outside of

13:20

it you know and obviously we weren't you

13:22

know calling immigration and rating our

13:24

own workers you know this had to do with

13:25

scabs

13:26

i don't know how true that is you know

13:28

but i i'd be curious

13:30

to seek um the reason i mention that is

13:32

because

13:33

we know the kind of anti-documented

13:37

immigration stance the ufws publicly

13:39

took at the time

13:40

but we also know um that a lot of ufw

13:43

organizers and activists went on to then

13:46

organize in

13:47

in the labor movement like miguel

13:49

contreras i think i believe he got some

13:50

of his early training was with the ufw

13:53

um so i wonder if that's uh there's a

13:55

possibility to explore that whether that

13:57

was even true or not

13:58

you know definitely something that that

14:00

the lord is told me um

14:02

you know i don't know how you know um

14:05

uh how big of a population they had in

14:08

it but i think that would be kind of

14:09

interesting to kind of explore that

14:12

um so i think the story of the 1960s

14:16

activists

14:17

going into the labor movement and

14:18

pushing it to change its stance on

14:20

immigration

14:21

which has brought part of a broader

14:24

movement against business unionism and

14:26

kind of turned to

14:27

social movement unionism i think that

14:29

story's been told by by several other

14:31

scholars um

14:32

but i think your contribution to this

14:34

literature is that

14:35

you give us examples of case studies of

14:39

local campaigns directly linking

14:41

pro-undocumented immigrant organizing to

14:43

both successful and i think even more

14:45

important in some respects unsuccessful

14:48

attempts right um sometimes you know we

14:50

just need to know something's even

14:51

possible sometimes we need to know that

14:52

someone's tried something right to kind

14:54

of inspire us or to

14:55

give us the idea of hey we should try

14:57

that too and i think

14:59

uh you all do and i think it's really

15:01

important that you included some of

15:02

those failed campaigns you know how we

15:04

could learn from them you know because

15:06

oftentimes i think the social movement

15:07

literature is a little biased towards

15:09

success we want to we want to fill that

15:10

activism matters because a lot of us

15:12

come from activist backgrounds you know

15:14

we don't want to talk about

15:15

uh our failures all right and i think it

15:18

um

15:18

that kind of distorts the literature a

15:20

bit right where we think they always

15:22

succeed

15:22

you know you know but i think you're

15:24

showing the importance of failure you

15:26

know

15:26

in it um and one of the things that i

15:28

really liked about how even those

15:30

failures

15:31

helped push you know and laid the

15:32

groundwork um as you talked about you

15:34

know the networks and the

15:36

and the legal and the social and the

15:38

rhetorical

15:40

um kind of foundation of this kind of

15:43

undocumented

15:44

uh worker movement um and again you

15:47

don't just focus on the famous j4j

15:50

or justice or janitor's case that we

15:51

always know about and that people always

15:53

talk about

15:56

that said i do wish i think some of the

15:57

campaigns you talked about i was kind of

15:59

curious i wanted more details so i'm

16:01

excited to know that this might be a

16:02

book

16:03

where you could elaborate a little bit

16:04

more on the details

16:06

i was wondering if there's any way you

16:07

could get a chance to interview some of

16:09

the

16:10

uh some more undocumented workers that

16:12

were there

16:13

you know maybe not the ones that were

16:14

directly tied with the labor union you

16:16

know but the kind of regular

16:17

undocumented workers who joined

16:19

um and it would be great to kind of talk

16:21

to them about why they were willing to

16:23

do something which kind of really hadn't

16:24

been done

16:25

before um i'm trying to blank here

16:28

uh i think i want to say maybe his name

16:31

is richard delgado

16:32

he's on a labor early labor scholar who

16:34

wrote about an

16:35

a campaign um that was a successful

16:38

undocumented immigrant rights book

16:40

i took a lot of labor studies classes in

16:42

grad school and i remember that was one

16:43

of the first ones i

16:44

read early on which was important for me

16:46

something delgado

16:48

and i think it's in la or southern

16:49

california example

16:51

um where he does talk to kind of

16:52

undocumented immigrants i believe

16:55

and why they joined the union organizing

16:57

drive so it'd be great to kind of try to

16:58

get some of those more interviews

17:01

um so kind of building off of the whole

17:04

1960s activists

17:06

uh moving into the labor movement

17:09

uh thing um i think and again i know

17:12

this is a history more of a historical

17:14

project but it did made me think

17:16

and i was wondering if it might kind of

17:17

help you all in any ways to check out

17:19

there's in the mainstream social

17:21

movement uh theory literature

17:23

there's a whole kind of literature on

17:25

what they call spillover effects

17:27

right so talking about how the

17:29

african-american civil rights movement

17:31

and then people's experiences

17:32

organizing and critiques of it spilled

17:34

over and helped politicize and laid the

17:37

foundation and even the framing

17:39

of the lgbt movement the women's

17:41

movement and things like that

17:43

so i'm just wondering if theoretically

17:44

maybe kind of reading some of that

17:46

spillover effect uh literature could

17:48

help

17:49

um orient this uh the project or

17:52

um or at least maybe even acknowledging

17:54

that it exists

17:55

but again i don't know i don't i don't

17:56

know historians use some of the same

17:58

theoretical kind of concepts i know we

18:00

talked about often

18:02

one of my frustrations with academia

18:03

that we're kind of all working in these

18:05

little silos um

18:06

even on the same exact concepts we just

18:08

call them different things you know

18:09

because we don't read

18:10

um so this might not be useful at all

18:12

but just in case

18:14

i would suggest kind of checking out the

18:15

spillover literature in sociology

18:18

um let me see

18:22

uh on page 35 i think that section felt

18:25

a little choppy to me

18:27

when you talk about the 1980s that

18:30

sounds super short and it felt

18:32

incomplete

18:33

um and then as i read i saw in brackets

18:34

that you said you chopped off a section

18:36

there

18:37

because it was getting too long so i

18:39

don't know what the word limits are in

18:41

in history

18:42

journals um you know but i kind of feel

18:44

like i wanted those more details in that

18:46

campaign in there because the whole 80s

18:48

section felt

18:49

a little short and and i think that's an

18:52

important decade right to talk about

18:53

this and you all kind of

18:55

highlight it in general but um i would

18:57

want to know more about that campaign

18:59

um let's see

19:03

i think i was also wondering uh like

19:04

what the focus is the focus

19:06

only on undocumented uh is it

19:10

undocumented

19:11

workers in general during this period or

19:13

is it on

19:14

specifically undocumented workers within

19:16

the labor or

19:18

not even just the labor room but within

19:19

unions in particular because i consider

19:21

not

19:22

uh labor um workers

19:25

uh as part of the labor movement in

19:26

general right where they were talking

19:28

about informal workers like day laborers

19:30

or

19:31

fruit and stuff like that i consider

19:33

them part of the labor movement as well

19:34

so i was wondering is the focus

19:36

specifically

19:37

which is fine and important undocumented

19:39

immigrants and the labor movement

19:41

i mean sorry on unions or undocumented

19:43

worker

19:44

activism in general so i did want to

19:47

know

19:48

or one question that came up was was

19:51

there

19:51

worker organizing happening outside of

19:53

the labor movement during the same

19:55

period

19:56

right um and was it helping any um or

19:59

did that influence the labor movement in

20:01

any way

20:04

also i think maybe you might want to

20:06

mention um how demographics may have

20:08

played a role i don't think it was a

20:10

coincidence

20:11

that la having the largest undocumented

20:13

population in the country

20:15

was a place that that disorganizing was

20:18

happening

20:18

right so maybe kind of mentioning or

20:20

even just having a

20:22

graph in the beginning showing now the i

20:24

know we know all these estimates are

20:26

are not perfect but showing how um

20:29

the undocumented population in southern

20:31

california in general but in l.a in

20:32

particular you know kind of grew and

20:34

maybe how that

20:35

was one of the factors that played a

20:37

role in

20:38

and why the allied labor movement did

20:40

organize them

20:41

um let's see what else

20:46

um yeah and i think just in the end you

20:50

know

20:50

in the abstract uh you talked about i

20:53

think the last line of the abstract

20:55

talks about

20:56

um how activists within and outside of

20:59

the labor movement created personal

21:01

networks

21:02

legal and organizing strategies and

21:03

rhetorical justifications

21:05

that under guided labor's official turn

21:08

um i think it would be nice to kind of

21:09

come back to that

21:10

you know just kind of recap you know

21:12

those things and remind the reader hey

21:14

this is where we were supposed to kind

21:15

of get out of it right it was the

21:17

organizing strategies the legal

21:19

strategies the rhetorical

21:20

kind of strategies um kind of be a nice

21:23

kind of bookend i think

21:24

um to to the great stories that you tell

21:28

and how these legal rhetorical networks

21:31

and organizing strategies

21:33

um i think we're not just important the

21:34

labor movement in the distance was kind

21:36

of at the forefront because now

21:38

you can't talk about any other

21:39

contemporary us social movement without

21:41

talking about it the role of migrants in

21:43

it

21:44

right you know you see the environmental

21:45

justice movement racial justice movement

21:48

um right so yeah i think in that sense

21:50

the labor movement might be ahead of the

21:51

other kind of mainstream american

21:53

uh social movement right and i think

21:55

you're that's an important role to play

21:57

but i think you're underselling

21:59

you know the importance of your own work

22:01

here and documenting this history

22:03

because

22:04

it went on to yes the neighborhood was

22:05

impacted first and started thinking

22:07

about illegality and undocumented

22:09

workers as having agency and those

22:11

undocumented workers you know

22:13

exercising that agency but they're doing

22:14

it now in all types of movements

22:16

right lgbt uh right q rights movement

22:20

um environmental justice environmental

22:23

racism

22:24

you know prisons you know detention work

22:27

right um i think these are all movements

22:29

that historically have not really

22:30

thought about the issue of illegality

22:32

and citizenship

22:33

um but the labor movement was as usual

22:35

kind in some respects forced to deal

22:37

with it first but it did also it's kind

22:39

of pioneering

22:40

in that sense um because it did it

22:41

pretty well relatively and now other

22:43

movements are trying to do it

22:45

um so i'll leave it there those are kind

22:47

of some of the initial things that i

22:48

thought i'm really excited about this

22:50

i'm excited about where it's going

22:52

um yeah and uh yeah it's great to know

22:55

that ucla has those archives i didn't

22:56

know we had

22:57

um so i congratulate you all for for

22:59

bringing them and tapping into them

23:02

wow thanks we'll turn it back

23:05

so please responses okay yeah you want

23:08

us to keep our responses on the short

23:10

side so we can

23:11

so we have time for conversation and

23:12

please um

23:14

panelists if you want to start writing

23:16

some questions in the chat you can

23:18

otherwise we'll open it up for

23:20

conversation soon

23:22

okay well that it's so helpful

23:25

to uh you know when you have a work in

23:27

progress and like i said this is our

23:28

first foray

23:29

of kind of really sketching it out and

23:32

of course as a historian i'm i'm very

23:34

interested in

23:35

the story and uh and and telling it as a

23:38

story

23:39

uh so it does it does often you know

23:42

especially at the beginning um sometimes

23:45

uh get the story takes over

23:47

and you lose the analysis but it's a

23:49

good reminder that uh

23:51

at the end uh we need to kind of refocus

23:55

the reader

23:56

um and ourselves so um i'm sure gus bar

24:00

will have a lot of responses and

24:01

and i'm not gonna respond to everything

24:03

but one thing i will say is uh

24:05

to uh reiterate what chris said at the

24:08

beginning

24:08

if there are people who know about

24:10

archival collections

24:12

out there um it really would be great

24:16

to have this stuff you know because it's

24:18

a very under collected

24:19

uh thing the ilg wu papers are in new

24:23

york

24:24

uh so they're inaccessible a lot of

24:27

um you know the hotel workers union

24:30

which was

24:31

a very large uh latino

24:35

membership union even in the 1970s lost

24:38

all of its older papers when they didn't

24:41

pay the rent on their storage unit and

24:43

were moving and around

24:44

and basically you know that's that

24:47

happens a lot with movements like this

24:49

so you know

24:50

it's it's a period that hasn't really

24:51

been deeply documented and it would be

24:53

wonderful we don't have access

24:55

to the stanford archives unfortunately

24:58

uh except for some things that other

25:00

scholars have shared with us generously

25:02

so

25:03

um hope you know we'll we'll try

25:06

someday soon to make that happen but i i

25:09

do think it would help

25:10

and to um to confirm

25:14

what chris is saying about corona and

25:17

julio

25:17

torre being involved in various

25:19

campaigns

25:20

that's come up a lot in interviews that

25:22

we've done subsequent to writing this

25:25

and um and also just in documentation it

25:28

comes up in the uaw section which i cut

25:31

like they were basically uh

25:34

you know we didn't know whether they

25:36

were hired on or they're just

25:37

there's not a lot of detail about what

25:39

the you know does the union hire them or

25:41

they just kind of do it on their own

25:43

a lot of people are doing freelance

25:45

organizing must

25:46

obviously the rents were cheaper in los

25:48

angeles in the 1970s and

25:50

you could live like that but um so yeah

25:53

they were involved in basically every

25:55

single

25:56

key uh union campaign

25:59

where there were large uh numbers of

26:03

immigrant workers uh for the uaw

26:06

the teamsters the ilgwu and

26:09

and others um so uh

26:12

they're sort of central to this process

26:14

they trained a lot of people

26:16

uh about how to do these things and and

26:19

that's one of the interesting things in

26:20

the sense that

26:21

uh gaspar shared in the chat a um

26:25

a recording that we just found yesterday

26:28

that was on pacifica radio of bert

26:31

corona speaking

26:32

at ucla in 1968 it's amazing to hear his

26:36

voice i'd never heard his voice before

26:38

um and you know he's basically talking

26:41

about

26:42

uh political action and how uh you know

26:45

people

26:45

uh need uh we need to build a

26:48

multi-ethnic political

26:50

uh coalition in order to take power

26:53

uh from his perspective as a as a

26:57

uh

27:01

that's all there uh great suggest about

27:04

the um

27:05

social movement literature i agree um

27:06

there needs to be more connection

27:08

and in fact you know certain elements of

27:10

social movement literature and even

27:12

walter nichols

27:13

uh uh even though he i see he's on the

27:16

chat

27:17

on the list of uh participants but uh

27:20

the

27:21

there's this book he has um about l.a

27:24

amsterdam and paris and part of that

27:27

also is really

27:28

generative about this early period and

27:31

how um

27:32

how the movement was evolving there so

27:34

we were particularly interested in

27:36

that union question and how this how

27:39

this sort of specific institution that

27:41

comes out of the new deal

27:43

um it gets transformed by its

27:45

interaction and really shifts from being

27:46

a nationalist

27:48

anti-immigrant institution to

27:52

embracing undocumented workers as

27:55

by necessity because they really had

27:58

no choice gaspar do you want to make any

28:01

comments and then we'll just like i

28:03

think there's a bunch of questions so

28:05

yes and um there's so much to comment so

28:09

thank you chris and i hope that we can

28:11

maybe see the talk more about your

28:14

your your takes on this because um

28:17

the attempt was to summarize really in

28:19

this article the

28:21

overarching story and now as we take a

28:24

look at the project

28:25

of course we need to write chapters on

28:27

this this is turned

28:29

uh to be a book uh because there are

28:33

very interesting it's very interesting

28:35

pieces that we need to pursue

28:36

so i'm really reading a lot about

28:39

uh bert corona and and there are many as

28:44

you can imagine this is a character that

28:47

lived a long life and he was

28:50

participating at key moments in the

28:53

history

28:54

of uh mexican-american chicano movement

28:57

since the 1930s since the congress of uh

29:00

spanish-speaking people in the 1930s

29:02

with uh

29:03

with moreno but the way he tells the

29:06

story and

29:07

and that's why i wanted to share that

29:09

interview his narrative is a narrative

29:11

of cross-border organizing

29:14

basically he traces his organizing roots

29:18

to the mexican revolution and he has a

29:20

fascinating story

29:22

in that recording that i share

29:26

and so he brings early on to the

29:29

movement this

29:30

international perspective and this um

29:34

he's really focused on organizing

29:37

mexican immigrants and especially

29:39

undocumented workers since the 1950s

29:42

actually

29:43

the early genesis of of uh

29:46

hermandad mexicana is an organized

29:49

organization

29:51

of construction workers in san diego

29:54

both that community from tijuana

29:56

and the san diego so early on he is

29:58

really embedded in this and he brings

30:00

this

30:01

to the different places uh where he's

30:03

organizing in l.a

30:05

um interacting with the united fan

30:08

workers

30:09

uh including a new generation of

30:12

organizers so the other thing that we're

30:15

bringing is that

30:16

we are still time to talk to some people

30:18

of course

30:19

it was unfortunate that you know uh

30:22

we're

30:22

trying to pursue more archives on uh cho

30:25

de la torre

30:26

but we found hoyl ochoa for example

30:29

who's

30:30

um who played a very important role

30:34

in the 1980s with the turn of

30:38

union organizing mexican immigrants but

30:39

he's

30:41

a product of the student movement in

30:43

mexico

30:44

so he's one of the early political

30:48

refugees

30:49

uh fleeing mexico

30:53

uh in the early 1970s coming to l.a

30:56

and starts working with ver corona and

30:59

there's a whole

31:00

group of young people of young

31:03

students who come and eventually are you

31:06

know

31:06

successful so hoylocho is one of them

31:10

there are other organizers in chicago

31:12

for example that also

31:14

open all the chapters of gaza so you see

31:16

the convergence

31:18

of um uh you know leftists radical

31:21

organizers coming to l.a

31:23

and then you have other people coming

31:26

here and what's fascinating to me is the

31:28

early experiments on how

31:30

all these people are converging and

31:31

coming up with really interesting

31:33

propositions like for example

31:35

writing in the collective bargaining

31:37

agreements

31:38

rights for undocumented workers so at

31:41

that time

31:43

there were rates massive rates in

31:44

factories in neighborhoods

31:47

and uh and workers were being deported

31:49

well union

31:50

said well these workers have a right to

31:52

come back to their job

31:53

as soon as they can across the border

31:55

back they need to be assured that they

31:57

have jobs

31:58

and so they buildings this sense of

32:00

rights for

32:01

for undocumented immigrants which is

32:03

fascinating because that's at the core

32:05

of the debate

32:06

you mentioned the united farm workers

32:08

right i mean they had

32:10

um and we need to uh research more they

32:13

had

32:14

yes undocumented immigrants as part of

32:16

their rank but they didn't

32:20

uh come up publicly with

32:23

this idea of rights for undocumented

32:26

immigrants instead they were trying to

32:28

stop them because they thought that they

32:29

were

32:30

um stride breakers right then and

32:32

there's a i think

32:33

more um of that relationship between

32:36

casa and the infant workers and the

32:38

conversations that they had

32:40

we had hints of the debate

32:43

but uh we still need to find out more

32:45

about

32:46

that debate but i i think it's clear if

32:48

you follow bert corona

32:50

he he was an internationalist he didn't

32:53

see a contradiction

32:54

between organizing workers in the united

32:57

states he was a unionist

32:58

and organizing undocumented immigrants

33:00

country here so

33:03

and i think all of your comments are

33:04

really great and i think uh in the

33:06

larger project i think these

33:08

they deserve whole chapters and so we're

33:10

still pursuing that so

33:12

thank you for that

33:16

okay let's see uh i see a comment or two

33:20

in the chat

33:21

and i was about to post one um are there

33:24

any hands

33:26

and you why don't why don't we invite

33:27

our audience to turn

33:29

on their cameras it'd be nice to see you

33:32

and join the conversation

33:37

sorry my comment is not fully thought

33:39

out because i'm rushing it but

33:41

um

33:45

so any hand waving comments um

33:48

and i'm trying to scroll up in the chat

33:50

to see what there

33:52

was up there min um

33:55

do you want to elaborate on your comment

33:58

about the archives

34:00

um

34:04

and does anyone want to ask a question

34:07

or comment yeah i just read about um

34:11

career bronze uh

34:14

you know the the african american

34:18

archive and

34:21

i think a way of collecting

34:24

ongoing um archival

34:28

data oral history data is kind of a

34:31

model

34:32

it would be great if you are using

34:34

archival data

34:36

and then you know that

34:39

you know you could consider doing

34:42

something

34:43

like that like an ongoing participatory

34:47

archival data collection

34:51

so that would be great for this

34:53

population

34:54

that you are studying you i just you

34:57

know felt this

34:58

the two are very connected whereas uh

35:01

corridors is

35:02

more historical and and

35:05

you know yours could be uh both

35:07

historical and also

35:09

present and ongoing

35:12

yeah and to comment on that um we

35:16

just recently finished a collaboration

35:19

with unite here local 11

35:21

which was essentially like a community

35:23

history project where

35:26

oral history project where people

35:28

interviewed long-serving

35:30

members and leaders and if some of the

35:32

interviewers were

35:35

activists themselves and others were

35:37

academics and things like that and we

35:39

we sort of facilitated gathering and

35:41

documenting and putting that up online

35:43

so it it speaks a little bit to this but

35:46

you know

35:46

um more on the union side

35:50

of things but i agree it'd be great and

35:52

i i think here we're just

35:54

embarking on this process of there's so

35:56

many people to identify

35:58

and um

36:02

beyond uh what what kasparov and i can

36:05

actually do in terms of bandwidth with

36:07

uh you know

36:08

our other aspects of our jobs as well so

36:10

um you know

36:11

i think there's room for graduate

36:12

students galore to start interviewing

36:14

people

36:14

um and and contributing to this

36:18

so in addition to that not only we have

36:20

the collections at the library but also

36:22

we've been collaborating with the center

36:23

for all history

36:25

identifying and they bring resources so

36:27

it's been great to collaborate with

36:29

other

36:30

parts of ucla and there's a lot more

36:32

work to be done

36:34

digitizing collections you know it's

36:36

like how do we do that ed

36:38

so it sounds like you know oral

36:40

interviews are can be done

36:42

faster and so collaborating with the

36:45

center for

36:45

history has been great

36:50

uh let's see we have a a few questions

36:52

in the chat uh

36:53

cecilia do you want to raise this point

36:56

about uh central market in 1980s

36:59

um and i'll just i

37:02

i mean i'm recalling going to guatemala

37:05

in the 80s to or

37:06

to work with to talk to coca-cola

37:08

workers who are unionizing there at the

37:10

time

37:11

and then bringing some of the leaders to

37:13

la for a um

37:14

tribunal at city hall um so that was

37:17

sort of

37:18

you know it was international solidarity

37:20

in the other direction like what

37:22

solidarity with what was happening in

37:23

central america but i'm wondering if

37:25

there's more to that story of

37:27

what was happening in these connections

37:29

and then as people settled here

37:31

cecilia you want to elaborate

37:36

um no i was just wondering about the um

37:39

central american organizers who were

37:42

present at that time

37:43

in los angeles specifically who

37:47

founded um a network of

37:50

solidarity um with central american

37:53

migrants

37:54

this is not the sanctuary movement this

37:57

is something different

37:58

that happened in in l.a so i was

38:02

wondering about that too

38:08

let me just add um you know we are

38:10

complicating

38:11

this complications i was so impressed

38:13

with this grand sweep of history and

38:15

going back

38:16

further and i'm in tremendous admiration

38:18

of what historians do

38:20

i don't know how you begin to find this

38:23

historical record of so many things that

38:26

aren't really documented as you say

38:28

so

38:31

thank you cecilia one of the early

38:32

inspirations for this project was

38:34

um a collaboration with the justice for

38:37

janitors

38:37

where we brought our students

38:40

to the union hall and we invited members

38:43

of the union

38:44

to bring their archives it was so

38:47

fascinating and that started we started

38:49

collecting all histories

38:51

um and and really bringing the voice

38:54

back of these immigrants you know these

38:56

central american immigrants were not

38:57

there just sitting around

38:59

waiting for unionists to come and

39:00

organize them they brought with them

39:03

all these political skills knowledge and

39:06

it's amazing i mean they were

39:07

political activists within the civil war

39:11

they were they had different roles they

39:14

were leading unions

39:15

and when they came to l.a you know they

39:18

deployed those

39:19

skills on the other hand also unionists

39:22

had been inspired

39:24

by the um moments in central america

39:28

so some of the early organizers um

39:32

went to nicaragua to pick up coffee went

39:35

to

39:36

uh to cuba to the event ceremonies

39:39

brigades went to el salvador

39:41

participated actively and you see the

39:44

rise also of some of these early

39:46

activists now

39:47

are leading organizations and so

39:51

we um

39:54

but that part of the story is more later

39:56

in the 1980s

39:58

in 1990 so we're still trying to delve

40:02

into the history a little bit before

40:03

that in the 1970s

40:05

and so uh but definitely there's a lot

40:08

of interesting materials that we haven't

40:10

really

40:11

looked in more depth that is waiting

40:14

there for us because we collected a lot

40:16

of stories and also with the

40:18

unite here local 11 oral history project

40:21

so we have

40:22

a lot of those interviews but um we need

40:25

to recruit more graduate students there

40:26

are a lot of dissertations to be written

40:28

there

40:30

one of the interesting aspects

40:34

okay sorry go ahead i'll just say

40:37

um uh lara pulido tried looking into

40:40

this

40:40

a few of you a few a few years back

40:43

um and i like the concept she came out

40:45

with like migrating militancy

40:47

um where she didn't find that the

40:49

majority of la union activists

40:51

from central america were involved in it

40:53

but the key organizers weren't i think

40:54

that's still important

40:55

right so it was more like you know a

40:58

kind of two-way politicization

41:00

or maybe unidirectional where they kind

41:02

of helped politicize the labor movement

41:04

and push them even further left than uh

41:06

the quote-unquote regular undocumented

41:08

mexicans

41:09

were you know so i think eventually if

41:11

you're going to tell that story

41:12

to the 90 that that's a key part of the

41:14

central american

41:15

unionists that came into it so one of

41:18

the things that interesting i think

41:21

and we obviously need to do more

41:23

thinking and research about it is

41:25

as gusbar suggested that the role of

41:27

these and and as you're saying that you

41:29

know role of essentially

41:31

radical intellectuals and activists in

41:33

the migrant stream and

41:35

how they're um affecting these processes

41:39

um you know and you can think about this

41:41

like the in the older labor movement

41:43

history

41:43

literature it's kind of about

41:45

intellectuals in the labor movement and

41:47

uh their their relationship to the mass

41:49

and things like that um but you know

41:52

clearly

41:53

uh this group of mexican radicals who

41:56

were fleeing reproduction in the night

41:58

late 60s and early 1970s came in and had

42:01

a big impact

42:02

on how organizing was taking place but

42:05

they also had to change their

42:06

style of organizing to to align with

42:09

the american scene um and

42:13

i think it's clear also that

42:16

uh central americans um

42:20

played a huge role in the you know

42:22

justice for janitors and other

42:24

unions so um yeah we we have more

42:27

work to do there um

42:31

the what one thing that was interesting

42:34

to me also

42:35

uh that's sort of here a little bit and

42:38

and adam goodman's new book is more has

42:40

a chapter about this is

42:41

uh about the inner

42:45

section of this group of radical

42:48

intellectuals and

42:49

american lawyers uh who are driving

42:52

the um you know sort of campaign of

42:55

legal cases around immigrant rights

42:57

and um you know that's a really

42:59

fascinating piece of this story because

43:01

they

43:01

impart are informing the organizers

43:04

around this question of like aspar

43:06

mentioned can we get can we write into

43:09

our collective bargaining agreements

43:11

uh immigrants right to return to the to

43:13

their job if they're deported or even

43:16

to return under a different name which

43:18

is

43:19

actually in a union contract um

43:22

[Music]

43:23

so uh so there's a sort of role for

43:26

intellectuals both

43:27

or the intersection of immigrant

43:29

intellectuals and u.s

43:30

born intellectuals who are intersecting

43:33

especially with

43:34

the legal sphere uh and then how the

43:37

legal sphere is

43:38

influencing it becomes drawn into

43:41

a core strategy of the labor movement

43:44

labor movement has to change its legal

43:46

strategy from one that's really focused

43:47

on the

43:48

national labor relations board to one

43:51

that is

43:51

more broadly you know focused into the

43:54

community and these other status rights

43:56

and that i think is part of the story of

43:57

the transformation of

43:59

of unions as institutions and how

44:02

immigration affects that

44:04

so it looks like there's a few comments

44:07

in the chat

44:08

and a couple of questions that may have

44:10

been

44:11

answered and then um

44:14

one question maybe from walter walter

44:16

nichols would you like to pose your

44:18

question

44:19

sure thank you toby and gaspar for the

44:22

for the great paper as is i love i love

44:25

this stuff so it's it's great reading it

44:27

and um so thank you i had a i just said

44:30

i know it's

44:31

as i just have a question about um sort

44:34

of the theory

44:34

of sort of path dependency and then

44:37

sudden change no

44:38

i mean and you don't really sort of talk

44:40

about this in the paper you know so

44:42

like what were the i mean how would

44:44

would if you were to be forced to

44:46

theorize

44:46

like what were the conditions that

44:48

resulted in stasis

44:50

and the inability for um for folks to

44:53

change

44:54

in the 1980s the 1970s the 1980s and

44:57

all of a sudden the fast change in the

44:59

1990s it seems like there's

45:02

i mean this is almost a sort of a

45:03

classical example of path dependency

45:06

crisis and change and i was wondering if

45:08

you if you had any thoughts about that

45:09

i'm just theorizing and i'm and i'm not

45:11

sure if uh

45:13

you know that's what you want to do with

45:14

this paper

45:17

well so um

45:21

that's a great question i mean i think

45:23

part of it is has to do with

45:24

institutions

45:26

and you know that's part of the problem

45:27

the the and

45:29

the leadership of institutions so like

45:32

the

45:32

the old guard of the unions

45:35

um in the case of the ilg it's mainly

45:37

jewish americans who

45:39

um see themselves as the defenders of

45:44

the

45:47

breakthrough of jewish americans into

45:49

middle class

45:50

life uh in a sense and and part of that

45:53

means defending their territory against

45:55

the encroachment of

45:56

undocumented workers but they also

45:59

eventually

46:00

realize that they'll lose it all if they

46:03

don't change their policy and so in

46:05

order to preserve

46:07

this thing that they have they kind of

46:10

you know flip but also at the same time

46:13

some of them get old and and are removed

46:16

from the scene

46:17

and the people who have been moving

46:19

institutionally beneath them

46:21

pop up to the next level and they are

46:23

able to quickly change the

46:25

policy i guess that would be one i'm not

46:27

sure that that's

46:28

super theoretical but gaspar you might

46:31

have something more

46:32

no and this is something i mean more in

46:34

this paper we wanted to be

46:36

laying out the first part of empirical

46:40

data but i

46:40

as we think more about this this is the

46:44

1970s is the big moment of transition

46:46

right

46:46

i mean we have a lot of debate about how

46:50

capitalism is changing from the you know

46:54

1940s it is running out of

46:57

legitimacy in the 1970s so you have a

47:00

lot of

47:00

changes that were dictating on the

47:03

ground

47:04

plant closures plant moving uh the

47:06

informality of a lot of the work

47:08

like we're you know we're documenting

47:12

uh union organizing in the garment

47:14

sector for example the construction

47:16

industry

47:17

later becomes important in the late

47:19

1970s early 1990s so you see

47:23

what some people call the big u-turn

47:25

right

47:26

with the de-unionization deregulation

47:30

um it and so i think the 1970s people

47:34

are trying to figure out they haven't

47:36

really

47:36

named it uh a systemic

47:41

crisis of capitalism and that it was

47:43

changing to a new liberal

47:45

order yet i mean really people are not

47:48

naming it

47:49

because that comes later with you know

47:52

organizing in the 1980s

47:54

against plant closures uh

47:58

organizing around the dividends on the

48:00

peace

48:01

you know just for peace so later

48:05

they you know they really named the

48:07

crisis and the big transition that

48:09

is happening but in the early 1970s that

48:12

is still up in the air and i think

48:15

it's fascinating to see how organizers

48:17

from the ground are time to adopt how to

48:19

name this moment

48:21

what to do and what experiments they

48:23

they need to

48:24

um to undertake and and as chris

48:27

mentioned

48:28

a lot of the experimentation fails

48:32

but they win in the long term because

48:35

they're

48:36

learning new skills and i think the

48:38

other is

48:41

where do these ideas come from about

48:44

organizing

48:45

about uh informing collective action and

48:48

i think that's the other fascinating

48:50

story i mean

48:51

there's a history of those ideas and

48:53

there are people who serve as hubs so

48:56

that's why

48:57

one of the key elements is about corona

49:00

but there are others too

49:02

so we're trying to do that so i think we

49:05

need to do

49:05

more thinking about that context and how

49:08

to place this

49:09

moment within that what people are

49:13

trying to theorize what is the nature of

49:15

the crisis

49:16

how workers are resistant and what needs

49:18

to happen that becomes more clear later

49:20

but in the 70s it's still up for debate

49:27

so let's see there's a few comments by

49:29

maite

49:30

and dennis and sophia would you like to

49:32

elaborate on those comments

49:34

or pose um them for conversation sophia

49:39

would you like to or just wanted to

49:42

share that

49:45

yeah i just wanted to share that um i

49:47

think that was

49:48

uh right now the ucla labor center is

49:50

also working

49:51

um with the ufcw and

49:55

looking at what they're doing in the us

49:57

and canada

49:58

and given that the the us has a lot of

50:00

variations when it comes to state law

50:03

regarding like access to health care um

50:06

that's one of the things that um

50:08

we saw how they were really trying to

50:11

insert in their collective bargaining

50:12

acts these protections to kind of

50:14

override what's going on at the

50:16

um state and federal level so it was

50:19

interesting to see the same thing

50:20

happening um

50:21

you know early on in this paper

50:26

you know that makes me think uh going

50:29

back to also what walter was

50:30

kind of asking about but you know in in

50:33

the new book you just wrote uh

50:36

about the you know immigrant rights

50:37

movement moving from local to national

50:40

um framing one of the things that's

50:43

interesting about this earlier period is

50:44

that

50:45

essentially corona is also trying to do

50:48

a move from the local to the national uh

50:52

he's building out this network but it

50:55

has a very different approach

50:56

than you know the the national uh uh

51:00

ngos that become the dominant force

51:03

in the in the early 2000s

51:07

and so and they the they're sharing a

51:10

lot of information across these networks

51:12

that include

51:12

lawyers and casa people and things like

51:15

that and they

51:16

that has an impact on um the court

51:20

cases so that um the aclu

51:23

in particular is kind of you know

51:25

funneling all of the

51:26

the these approaches around uh the

51:29

country so that's another piece of this

51:31

that we need to dive more into and find

51:33

the folks who are involved and there's

51:35

evidence that it's not just chicago and

51:37

new york

51:38

i mean they were in greeley colorado

51:40

they were in texas but they're also in

51:42

iowa

51:42

they're in you know like the quad cities

51:45

of

51:46

iowa where lulac has you know a major

51:49

hub and in uh cities where there are

51:52

small

51:53

uh mexican american populations uh

51:56

and those groups are also in

51:58

communication with each other so

52:00

in a sense there's like a grassroots

52:02

version of the national story

52:05

that's been hidden uh

52:11

documented and hopefully we'll be able

52:14

to

52:15

tell that story um or

52:19

speculate how to tell that story if we

52:21

can't find the documentation because i

52:23

think it is there

52:25

might they or dennis would you like to

52:28

elaborate on your or i think you posed a

52:30

question

52:31

that's been answered this is dennis

52:34

lopez i just wanted to comment regarding

52:35

the

52:36

an examination of the ufw's early

52:38

position

52:39

um on undocumented farm workers um

52:43

i think the the the growers had an

52:45

intentional strategy of going into

52:47

mexico

52:48

to recruit workers for the ex the

52:51

express

52:52

purpose of breaking the strike and with

52:55

the at the timing before the 1965

52:58

immigration law and all

53:00

everything that led up to that um there

53:03

was the the history of the brazil

53:05

program

53:05

so the strategy of going into mexico to

53:08

recruit farm workers

53:10

uh is you know was decades long

53:14

so i think one way of looking at the ufw

53:18

as being anti-immigrant

53:19

should be considered in a in a broader

53:22

context of

53:23

the effective strategy of recruitment of

53:26

farm workers from mexico with the with

53:29

the purpose and the ability

53:30

of growers uh to to tap a source of

53:33

labor

53:37

and the garment worker the garment

53:40

industry basically does the exact well i

53:42

think the garment industry and the

53:44

non-union auto parts sector are all

53:46

doing the exact same thing

53:48

so uh gaspar do you wanna you're the

53:50

expert on the ufw

53:52

no and and i think there's has been some

53:53

recent um

53:56

documentation on this and i what for me

53:58

what's fascinating is the dialogue

54:01

and i can imagine the dialogue between

54:04

bert corona and cesar chavez

54:06

so what to do with these undocumented

54:07

workers and there's a political decision

54:09

at the end

54:10

ember corona was pushing to organize

54:14

those even you know uh workers that were

54:16

coming here they're saying there

54:18

there's a long history of organization

54:20

in mexico they're not jews

54:21

strike workers if you build a political

54:24

project

54:26

in which they had a a place

54:29

you can organize them too there are farm

54:31

workers too and on the other side

54:33

and i think this is very well documented

54:35

to the united farm workers were

54:37

surviving they were fighting for their

54:39

existence and

54:40

and and they had to make a political

54:42

decision so that is

54:44

really interesting that political

54:47

conversation and what you do and i think

54:49

is and that's why contrasting uniform

54:52

workers and and

54:53

casa becomes very important because they

54:56

become

54:57

political projects that are debating

55:00

about what to do

55:01

with undocumented immigrants and i think

55:03

this story is fascinating

55:04

and eventually of course the uniform

55:06

workers sort of

55:08

quickly in the next um convention they

55:11

they

55:12

stop the wetland program and they

55:14

embrace undocumented immigrants

55:17

but that moment about what to do with

55:19

undocumented workers

55:21

is an important one because that's

55:23

always the question

55:25

do you organize them how do you view

55:27

these undocumented workers and that's

55:29

what we're trying to sort of

55:32

argue you know the complexity of that

55:34

because it has consequences too

55:39

great let's see um mike did you want to

55:42

yeah no i just yeah i was really

55:45

fascinating by

55:46

by julia la torre what i learned about

55:48

her and would love to

55:49

to learn more about women leaders and

55:52

labor movements and actually

55:54

both in mexico and in in the united

55:58

states and particularly in in california

56:00

and chris very kindly sent me a

56:02

reference so i will start reading that

56:04

but if you have

56:05

any other references i'm really

56:07

fascinated about it

56:11

um yeah i mean this is something that we

56:13

need to build out here and along with

56:15

the

56:16

um comment i think that chris had about

56:20

couldn't we find some rank and file

56:22

people

56:23

to interview uh and so see what the rank

56:26

and files

56:27

attitude was i think that would be

56:29

fabulous

56:30

and hopefully that that will happen uh

56:33

christina ramirez

56:34

uh is another person who was you know a

56:37

rank-and-file

56:38

worker who um was

56:41

then hired by the ilgwu

56:45

and has currently heard i think she just

56:47

retired and still is here in los angeles

56:48

so

56:49

we're hoping to interview her soon

56:52

um and maria elena dorazo is another

56:55

person who is

56:56

currently a state senator uh who uh

56:59

you know came out her parents were farm

57:01

workers

57:02

uh she came to los angeles after college

57:06

explicitly to work with bert corona she

57:08

says

57:09

um basically was a

57:13

freelance organizer uh had day jobs to

57:17

support

57:17

her organizing and then uh was hired on

57:20

in this wave

57:21

of um union uh organizing campaigns

57:25

of the garment workers and then went on

57:27

to lead the

57:28

hotel workers union so i yeah there's a

57:31

there's definitely

57:33

a key role um rocio cyans is another

57:36

person who came out of mexico was a

57:38

mexican student

57:39

radical i believe gaspar knows more

57:41

about her and and was a key organizer

57:44

in the justice for janitor's campaign so

57:47

um gaspar

57:51

thank you we have collected some moral

57:52

histories at the labor center so there's

57:54

uh

57:55

a publication about uh not only union

57:59

organizers but also one can file so we

58:01

can share that with you

58:02

and i mean that is i think we need to do

58:05

more work

58:05

in terms of elevating those voices

58:07

definitely okay

58:08

thank you okay

58:12

thank you any final truth

58:15

um i was gonna say if there's any final

58:18

questions before we give that over to

58:20

the panelists

58:22

um and chris to wrap up and give some

58:25

final words

58:27

cecilia did you want to say something so

58:29

i said too

58:33

no i voted on the oh okay so that others

58:36

could have

58:39

cesar your music

58:42

muted you're muted

58:46

oh i cannot mute whoops

58:50

yeah can you hear me now yeah yeah a

58:52

question about the strength of

58:54

kind of the nlrb focused ideology and

58:58

let me just tell anania though for a

59:00

second

59:00

um so i i used to work in the latino

59:02

workers center in manhattan

59:04

in new york and i recall that

59:07

undocumented mexicans who worked in

59:09

these supermarkets that were

59:11

open 24 hours for less than minimum wage

59:13

had a

59:14

had a a series of labor actions in these

59:17

supermarkets and with the lawyer from

59:19

the

59:20

latino worker center uh the you know

59:22

they organized

59:23

slowdowns sort of slowdowns uh or you

59:26

know calling in sick or whatever

59:28

uh and they were able to negotiate a

59:31

race they were all undocumented right

59:33

and in the discussions in the workers

59:35

center i remember vividly

59:38

the lawyer saying well the problem is

59:40

you guys don't have a union

59:42

and a dominican

59:46

i guess worker who was there said i i

59:48

don't understand uh you guys

59:51

uh uh you know got together

59:54

organized a labor action stop work

59:58

and got a race for it and you're not a

60:01

union

60:02

so it means you only exist uh if the

60:05

state recognizes you because where i

60:07

come from most of the

60:08

most of the time the state doesn't

60:10

recognize

60:12

labor unions so um there is a history of

60:16

working

60:16

outside of legal recognition in latin

60:19

america

60:19

uh this is very strong and i want to

60:22

know uh

60:23

well and luckily i have to say this this

60:25

has to be mentioned

60:26

ernesto hoffrey rest in peace a chilean

60:30

member of

60:31

this party who had to be exiled after

60:33

the coup who was a prominent

60:34

uh kind of organizer with ilg while then

60:38

ilg before he became united

60:39

uh stepped in to assist uh to assist uh

60:43

these workers with some union resources

60:45

and so on and so forth

60:46

but um the issue of legality i mean

60:50

it's it seems to be you know i

60:53

understand the state

60:55

has it but organizers have it in their

60:57

minds internalized

61:01

true it's really true i mean it's really

61:04

super obvious in the 70s

61:06

just exactly what you're describing i'd

61:08

love to know more about that

61:09

example i'll i'll circle back to you

61:12

cesar

61:12

but um the the the union the ilgwu in

61:16

the early 70s the leadership was just

61:18

like

61:19

unable to imagine uh

61:23

a union movement outside of the nlrb

61:26

framework and it took the younger

61:29

activists and the immigrants themselves

61:31

to

61:32

um force them to confront that

61:35

and then the piece that we cut out was

61:37

really about the uaw

61:39

where there's a more progress

61:44

a leader in the gm plant in van nuys

61:47

who basically um is is helping

61:51

corona and others see these other union

61:54

campaigns

61:55

and what they're experiencing is this

61:56

sort of growing non-union parts sector

62:00

um and they can see what's going on is

62:03

that they're undermining the unionized

62:05

sector

62:06

by having you know non-union uh workers

62:09

so they're they're organizing um

62:12

in any way that they can uh and i think

62:16

ultimately a lot of this leads the

62:18

unions

62:19

uh you know as other like ruth milkman

62:22

and many other sociologists and labor

62:24

scholars have pointed out the unions

62:25

eventually sort of

62:27

leave behind the nlrb and find these

62:31

non-nlrb strategies but norm

62:34

most of that has been identified as as

62:36

emerging from the late 80s early 90s

62:39

uh in the minds of a few top

62:42

level strategists in in washington who

62:45

were anglos who

62:47

you know disseminated it out to the

62:49

grassroots

62:51

this story seems very different that

62:54

it's coming from the grassroots and that

62:56

the you know central uh thinkers

63:00

picked up on that and you know

63:02

disseminated it out again

63:04

in a sense in a more networked way

63:10

you're muted i think we yeah i think we

63:12

need to wrap

63:13

up now but we'll take final comments

63:15

from the

63:16

off the panelists thank you anything

63:20

you'd like to leave

63:20

a spa you want to go ahead tell me okay

63:24

well thank you everybody thanks chris

63:26

thanks marjorie walt

63:27

uh uh roger everybody

63:30

who commented uh you know it's it's

63:33

it's uh humbling uh to present

63:37

uh work in progress and um we're really

63:41

so happy to get all of your outstanding

63:43

feedback about how to

63:46

frame and expand this in different

63:48

directions

63:49

um you know we began not knowing whether

63:52

it was

63:52

really whether there would be enough

63:53

material whether there was a story

63:55

is this an article is this a book um and

63:58

so

63:59

the more we dig into it the more it

64:01

looks like it's it's a book of some kind

64:03

so

64:04

um we you know uh we'll be circling back

64:07

to you

64:08

for more uh questions and hope that your

64:12

your uh your constructive criticisms

64:15

uh can you know help us push this in a

64:18

in a good

64:19

interesting uh way it's been a really

64:22

um i've always enjoyed

64:26

the interaction uh so historians like i

64:29

think chris eluded are

64:30

like operate in a kind of

64:34

a theoretical uh uh vacuum or

64:37

or silo sometimes and so it's it's a

64:40

great to be

64:42

interacting with people

64:45

who are in the more social scientific

64:47

world which

64:48

uh you know very theoretical so i'm

64:51

never gonna get there

64:52

in the total uh theory orientation but

64:54

it is helpful

64:55

um but nonetheless i just want to

64:57

conclude by saying i think uh

64:59

uh the story there's something about the

65:02

historical imagination here as well

65:04

and the way we tell the story of

65:08

of the labor movement of the immigrant

65:10

rights movement and things like that

65:11

and bert corona told a very different

65:13

story which gaspar

65:14

alluded to where he said look we've been

65:17

here for a long time

65:19

uh you know mexican-americans latinos

65:22

have been part of the labor movement

65:23

since the haymarket

65:25

uh affair and and he he references lucy

65:28

gonzalez parsons uh the wife of one of

65:31

the haymarket martyrs and

65:32

and is you know he sees himself and his

65:35

movement as part of this

65:37

long cycle of progressive or radical

65:40

or leftist organizing whatever name you

65:42

want to give it

65:44

and american i think the way we've

65:47

looked at this upsurge of the late

65:50

20th century this sort of neoliberal

65:51

period upsurge

65:53

is that it's a radical departure from

65:56

um what came before it and there are

66:00

there are elements of radical departure

66:02

but um the american political scene is

66:05

such that because there's no

66:07

single political left party there's no

66:09

real viable socialist party the

66:10

communist party is kind of stamped out

66:12

the the left in america has uh

66:16

i didn't come up with this idea that

66:17

another historian did you know

66:19

operates through individuals

66:22

moving across these what appear to be

66:25

separate movement

66:27

uh structures and that's kind of what

66:29

we're seeing we're seeing

66:30

uh these networked people moving across

66:33

um things that seem disjunctures

66:36

that are actually connected through

66:39

individuals

66:40

lives and and their their

66:43

legacies gaspar

66:46

thank you everybody it's so great to

66:48

have this community of scholars

66:50

and uh thank you for your feedback is uh

66:53

as we move along we're gonna reach out

66:55

to many of you

66:56

to continue this conversation and i

66:58

think the idea is to

67:00

elevate the discussion about workers

67:02

immigration

67:04

uh uh unions and to collaborate more

67:07

with all of you so this is great

67:09

feedback we're gonna go back to the

67:11

you know join board and see how uh we

67:14

respond to a lot of your

67:16

uh insightful feedback so thank you and

67:19

keep

67:19

safe thank you all thank you for the

67:22

wonderful paper

67:23

guest and toby and um to all of you for

67:26

coming out to christopher's comments

67:28

um we have three more sessions

67:31

before the fall starts up the next step

67:34

is minjo

67:34

working paper on september 4th i think

67:39

if you are not on the list contact

67:41

sophia she can put you on the list

67:43

and then we are launching right away

67:45

into the fall series starting in october

67:47

we'll continue

67:48

same time same place 10 a.m fridays

67:51

somewhere in cyberspace and please tell

67:54

other people because um

67:56

it's easy to have lots of people click a

67:58

button and join us

68:00

and thank you for coming out in the

68:03

middle of the summer

68:04

strange summer that it is stay well

68:08

stay safe and we'll see you all okay

68:11

thank you everybody

68:12

thank you bye bye