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well good afternoon and welcome to this
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afternoon or evenings James's Colman
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memorial event
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I'm Andrew after the
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the muted
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I'm also the interim director of our
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African Studies center so it's an honor
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and a privilege to introduce the artist
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filmmaker videographer writer and in my
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opinion neo situationist Xena Sara Lila
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whose performance lecture film whirring
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the masks the politics of authenticity
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and contemporaneity in the worlds of
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African art is available on YouTube
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through our Center website it's been
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showing since Saturday and it will be
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showing through the week so you have
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time to see it if you haven't seen it
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yet we are indeed fortunate to be
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hosting Sarah wheeler this year and next
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year as our African Studies Center's
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affiliated artist in residence and we
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look forward to several productive and
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exciting collaborations even a sampling
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of Sarah we was extraordinary of takes
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up a lot of time as it not only spans
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media formats and genres but resolutely
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destabilizes or in her term worries the
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distinctions between them generating
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aesthetic trajectories that take hold
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and also take off her own worlds of
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African art span Nigeria and the afro
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Atlantic including Dakar London Bahia
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New York Houston and now Los Angeles to
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name a few cartographic landing points
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as the founding filmmaker of Alton
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Hollywood which redeploys this
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vernacular film industry to turn it and
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the world on its head her artistic
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practice as she calls it includes the
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boys quarters project space in Port
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Harcourt a gallery from local niger
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delta artists it also includes the
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illicit Gian Institute a kind of
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conceptual craft distillery which
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produces palm wine G in within the
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cultural ecology of niger delta history
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and also the niger delta traditional art
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research drive which revisits dying
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delta masking traditions within
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contemporary aesthetic registers and
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recently it featured the work of a bony
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sculptor chromis Lee Geary who's worked
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figures prominently in the lecture film
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that you saw or will see the performance
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lecture film and also in today's
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discussion
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zena's many films include basta the new
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wave hello Nigeria this is my Africa
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which portrays the continent from the
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standpoint of Africans in London and
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deliverance of comfort
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Perrault Nollywood film with sci-fi
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overtones about a child which and have
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showed at the Toronto International Film
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Festival this is my Africa when the best
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documentary short at the International
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black document in 2008 and was later
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licensed by HBO
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zena's video art installations include
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table manners at our own Fowler Museum
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at UCLA as well as installations for her
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solo museum exhibit did you know we
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taught them how to dance at the bluffer
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Art Museum at the University of Houston
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eaten by the heart exploring afro
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Atlantic love and heartbreak and Sarah
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Guam morning
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as for fiction and criticism read Lola
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of the red oil or his eyes were shining
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like a child in sable lit mag and no
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going back the latter appearing in
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Pietro Hugo's volumes Nollywood
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photographs add to this a few
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distinctions like being named one of the
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top 25 leaders of your African
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Renaissance in The Times of London being
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selected one of the global thinkers in
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2016 by foreign policy magazine and
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receiving a John Simon Guggenheim Award
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in fine arts in 2017 one only gets the
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sense of her power originality and
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impact today the technology God's
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willing you will experience it for you
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for yourselves and ourselves so before
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shifting to our discussion my thanks to
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the International Institute at UCLA for
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supporting this series and to our
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African Study Center staff Erica Andrew
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the deputy director Sheila breeding
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Leslie Jones of Howard and Grace Stanley
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for bringing together the complex pieces
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of this event to fruition thanks also to
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all of her Chen and Alex you of the
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International Institute whose technical
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wizardry really borders on the occult
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even when it fails today's discussion
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between Zena and myself followed by Q&A
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is based on Zena Sarah we was masterful
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performance lecture film that we've
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talked alluded to earlier worrying the
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masks the politics of authenticity and
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contemporaneity
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in the worlds of African art please feel
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free also to use the chat box to post
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questions unfortunately given the
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numbers were happy to see the
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registrations gone through the roof that
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we won't be able to answer everybody
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we're also trying to gain fluency in
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this technological mode of communication
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and interaction so there's still a
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learning curve ahead of me in this
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respect and also
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mentioned that I will be showing some
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video clips well from the performance
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film lecture and I'm going to be asking
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questions based on those clips so what
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I'll do is ask Xena the question and
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when there's a clip I'll show the clip
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and then close the question again
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because it's hard to hold all of that
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information in one's head over that time
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period so in any case greetings Xena
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thank you for opening our eyes and for
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challenging our minds and before I
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launch into questions would you have
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anything you would like to add say thank
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you so much for inviting me to do this
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last year the film is based on an essay
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that I wrote last year it was supposed
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to be just a gallery notes for the show
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the promise llegará show that I put up
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and then it sort of metastasized into
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kind of like museological manifesto
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history of agony history of agony and
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then sort of wound up being uh some sort
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of like ghost story so instead of us
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that this weird little I couldn't really
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understand it but I knew that I had to
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go through all the motions and the fact
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that you read it ten thousand five
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hundred words and you just read it so
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quickly and you got back to me so I
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think it was literally 48 hours and you
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got back to me I was really touched by
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that and so I'm really grateful for this
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opportunity
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and even though I'm sad not to be in an
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auditorium with you know and seeing
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everyone's faces I'm actually really
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excited at the opportunity to really put
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this together and also to go through my
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archive of almost a million photographs
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over the years from 2013 to be able to
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like actually show you some of these
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images that I live with that I don't
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like sell or I don't show as actual
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artworks but they are energy pieces that
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really have transported me so I'm really
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happy to be able to like put them in
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there and also to activate some of my
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video artwork within the context of the
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film so it's been an honor really to be
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able to put this together so thank you
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thank you so much really
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so my first question it's a little wordy
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it's the only long question in my list
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and
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[Music]
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I'm going to show two clips to
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illustrate the two contexts that the
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question addresses and then I'm going to
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come back to the question again so if
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the audience will bear with us this is
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probably the more verbose of the
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questions coming up so zina your lecture
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film navigates many portals that take us
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through space-time place spirit worlds
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history remembering forgetting framed by
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your homeland of O'Neill and so before
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we jump through these portals I'd like
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to start by asking you about two
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important art worlds in your homeland
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two contexts that introduce the complex
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dialectics of authenticity in your film
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the first concerns the world of
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festivals as performed by local
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communities the second the boy scores
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quarters project space where you
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exhibited the masks carved by promise
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lookee here II and it's clear that you
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reject the idea that masks performed in
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the villages are somehow more authentic
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than those featured in your exhibit but
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how do you see their connective tissue
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so what I'm going to do now is attempt
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to call up the video so bear with me
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dear friends and dear friends from all
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over the world by the way and from
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Nigeria and from Africa and from Europe
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and Asia thank you so much some of you
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were staying up late at night and we
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really love you and to my you're about
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brothers and sisters muta-do muy lame-o
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King Koopa like ah Bogany okay so
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clip number one coming up bear with me
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Christianity in Islam are powerful
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forces and monotheistic religions do
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challenge the existence of this type of
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work
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in fact promise regularly field visits
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from Agora evangelicals who urge him to
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end his heathen practice many talented
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attorney Carver's have given up their
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practice because they became Christian
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but there is much complexity in the
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dance between belief and one supreme god
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and the polyphony of Animus spirits of
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our heritage there are multiple
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syncretic performances of faith in
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Nigeria belief is not so clear-cut
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responses therefore to our traditional
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masks are varied but bringing them into
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the white cheap space draws out these
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conversations and opens up the psychic
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and storytelling space around these
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works this view is supported by boys
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quarters gallery manager do me for there
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these masts and figurines are viewed as
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more accessible within the gallery the
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superstitions fear and secrecy
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surrounding masks are diffused it
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becomes a work of art and not something
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to be afraid of here in the gallery
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people have the peace to enjoy it
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there's more of a relationship and
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closeness you can even have selfies with
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the work people are enjoying it as art
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[Music]
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while you show you got that by my
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[Music]
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[Music]
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it's the kind of mirroring one sees in
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in the gallery itself and the way people
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interpolate themselves into the
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aesthetic frames and I that to me is
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it's an active productive process and I
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guess to reframe my question how how do
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you compare this context contemporary
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contexts clearly as are the festivals
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and the villages are contemporary as
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well how do you how do you compare those
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that the genres of participation and
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basically interpolation of how people
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put themselves in and see themselves in
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the through the eyes of the other I mean
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the participation thing is in the
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gallery context it's a function of the
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fact that people love selfies in Nigeria
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it's always that that culture is
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incredible if you go on you know
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Facebook if you have a lot of Nigerian
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friends on Facebook and you know which
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one I joined in Nigeria and you know the
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kind of people love like they submit
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multiple photographs from the same shoot
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of themselves in different positions and
279
00:12:37,930 --> 00:12:41,079
it's it's glorious I actually collect
280
00:12:39,490 --> 00:12:42,970
them I think they're fantastic so that's
281
00:12:41,079 --> 00:12:44,440
partly what we do that's just a
282
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naturally you know something that we
283
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,709
enjoy doing so you know that is drawn
284
00:12:46,269 --> 00:12:50,199
out of us and it's presented in the
285
00:12:47,709 --> 00:12:52,510
white sheep space as well and also when
286
00:12:50,199 --> 00:12:53,920
you're in the kind of you know I was
287
00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:55,089
gonna say carnival but it's like it's
288
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,060
very different from carnival and
289
00:12:55,089 --> 00:12:59,889
masquerade it's not because not quite
290
00:12:58,060 --> 00:13:02,170
parade it's this kind of like cell
291
00:12:59,889 --> 00:13:03,760
that's moving around and you know and
292
00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:06,100
you're kind of thrill you're thrilled
293
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,459
around this cell there's a it's about
294
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:12,010
thrill in this way and no you're not
295
00:13:09,459 --> 00:13:14,230
connecting with like the curve of the
296
00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:15,220
cheek on a mask you're not connecting
297
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:17,380
with it in that way it's a completely
298
00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:18,699
different kind of aesthetic and so you
299
00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:20,410
know it does particularly that has a
300
00:13:18,699 --> 00:13:22,089
particular job in that context but just
301
00:13:20,410 --> 00:13:24,490
because the person that either
302
00:13:22,089 --> 00:13:25,779
commissioned it all carved it did it for
303
00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:28,209
that particular purpose doesn't mean it
304
00:13:25,779 --> 00:13:30,880
doesn't have other purposes right so I
305
00:13:28,209 --> 00:13:33,220
feel like objects like this you know
306
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,930
referred to them as children you know
307
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:36,759
this idea of you know these masks it
308
00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:38,889
necessary belong to the parents that
309
00:13:36,759 --> 00:13:40,420
made them and that's what it's like when
310
00:13:38,889 --> 00:13:41,740
you're a parent you know you made this
311
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:43,990
choice you know own that child that
312
00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:45,819
child is his or her own person or their
313
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own person and you don't control that
314
00:13:45,819 --> 00:13:48,280
and so
315
00:13:46,510 --> 00:13:50,230
and they can move and they can be and
316
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,480
they can exist in many other ways and
317
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:54,700
that's what's so exciting about I think
318
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,040
these kinds of this kind of production
319
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:59,380
and the thing is that that's why I'm not
320
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,990
you know I describe myself as literally
321
00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:05,080
an iconoclast in that sense or not I
322
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:06,940
like to worry tradition I'm not I'm okay
323
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,070
fine that's tradition but I always have
324
00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:10,780
something to say about it and I'm I want
325
00:14:09,070 --> 00:14:12,580
to disrupt it I'm not not a
326
00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:14,680
traditionalist in any way shape or form
327
00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:16,450
so I'm very interested in seeing what
328
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:19,030
this thing is but it's it's it's that
329
00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:21,910
it's so much more it's more than even
330
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:24,430
how it's you know how it exists in the
331
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:26,290
African in the what a fail it's a be a
332
00:14:24,430 --> 00:14:28,030
go any context it's more than that and
333
00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:29,950
that's what's really exciting and that's
334
00:14:28,030 --> 00:14:35,010
where this is the uncharted territory it
335
00:14:29,950 --> 00:14:35,010
hasn't gone to thank you
336
00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:40,769
I'm going to move look a little bit
337
00:14:37,170 --> 00:14:43,230
ahead I want to look at the problem look
338
00:14:40,769 --> 00:14:45,779
at the whole question of of a power
339
00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:49,320
object and what makes objects powerful
340
00:14:45,779 --> 00:14:52,350
and I'm going to it's one of my dive
341
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:55,270
into questions in the film I know I know
342
00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:58,480
there with me as I go try this again
343
00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:58,480
[Music]
344
00:15:00,649 --> 00:15:05,269
what is a powerful piece of art
345
00:15:07,059 --> 00:15:11,259
when we say that in the West it means
346
00:15:09,009 --> 00:15:13,029
the piece of art that has moved you it
347
00:15:11,259 --> 00:15:15,549
has moved your emotional perhaps changed
348
00:15:13,029 --> 00:15:17,139
your mind but when people talk of a
349
00:15:15,549 --> 00:15:19,509
powerful piece of art in the sense of
350
00:15:17,139 --> 00:15:21,839
the power objects in Africa it takes on
351
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:25,989
a whole other register of implications
352
00:15:21,839 --> 00:15:28,029
is the power purely in the aesthetics or
353
00:15:25,989 --> 00:15:32,049
in the way it may have been charged
354
00:15:28,029 --> 00:15:33,819
spiritually is there an overlap must it
355
00:15:32,049 --> 00:15:36,729
be visually striking to set the magic
356
00:15:33,819 --> 00:15:40,259
off or other chants and spells and
357
00:15:36,729 --> 00:15:45,729
sacrifices enough to do the job
358
00:15:40,259 --> 00:15:48,339
this Jana's faced ontology I think
359
00:15:45,729 --> 00:15:50,489
aesthetics do matter and there is power
360
00:15:48,339 --> 00:15:54,279
and divinity in elision in lines
361
00:15:50,489 --> 00:15:59,609
connecting portals somehow you know it
362
00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:59,609
when you see it you feel it
363
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:21,930
[Music]
364
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:28,190
lovely so again that's one of a very
365
00:16:21,930 --> 00:16:32,010
powerful clip and part of the film so
366
00:16:28,190 --> 00:16:34,430
this really interests me a lot what I'm
367
00:16:32,010 --> 00:16:37,560
curious about is how we can rethink
368
00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:40,470
through this kind of a framework the
369
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:44,010
idea of the work of art as a labor
370
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:46,800
rather than as an object instead of a
371
00:16:44,010 --> 00:16:49,440
mask as being an object scored and
372
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,860
archived in a museum collection it can
373
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:55,080
be seen as performing a kind of work
374
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:57,390
even when it is stored and archived in a
375
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,980
museum it's still doing a kind of work
376
00:16:57,390 --> 00:17:02,190
and when it's coming out into the public
377
00:16:58,980 --> 00:17:04,200
you it's doing a kind of work when
378
00:17:02,190 --> 00:17:08,160
images of those masses circulate they're
379
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:10,890
doing a kind of work and at the same
380
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,660
time one can also see artwork as what in
381
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:15,680
the us-south used to be called route
382
00:17:12,660 --> 00:17:20,630
work which was the work of so-called
383
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:25,460
Congo specializing in enroute medicines
384
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:29,190
during the plantation days of US history
385
00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:32,100
which may not be over yet but we're
386
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:37,190
working on it and I just wonder how you
387
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:41,700
know you can how you activate this this
388
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:43,680
perspective on an artistic agency in
389
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:48,390
effect how you give agency to the
390
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:51,900
objects themselves this is this morning
391
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:53,700
this clip came out as me at me as being
392
00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:54,990
possibly the most important I mean
393
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:57,540
there's a lot of important stuff in this
394
00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:59,100
film but this is one really important
395
00:17:57,540 --> 00:18:01,140
clip from you it's like a link to a lot
396
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:02,760
of future work and you know I sometimes
397
00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:06,390
make this work I don't know what I'm
398
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,520
doing I'm sort of tunneling the work I
399
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:10,590
don't always understand it until later
400
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,960
right and so that's kind of this clip
401
00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:16,350
came at me this morning in terms of okay
402
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,840
work how do we how does an art work do
403
00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:21,810
its work so it's inkless it in its
404
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:25,110
design right it's but also it's
405
00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:27,059
activated by what is the right I mean
406
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:29,850
they're kind of scaffolding around it
407
00:18:27,059 --> 00:18:31,290
that's as important when I was you know
408
00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:32,970
becoming an artist it's always this
409
00:18:31,290 --> 00:18:34,650
thing about you know it's when I speak
410
00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:37,679
to people who are say photographers when
411
00:18:34,650 --> 00:18:39,030
an artist or designers and artists it's
412
00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:41,670
like what is that difference and it's
413
00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:43,640
the difference of the kind of
414
00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,900
storytelling that you're able to weave
415
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,020
and so for me a really powerful artist
416
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:51,059
is someone that can own the color blue
417
00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:53,420
how do you own the color blue how do you
418
00:18:51,059 --> 00:18:55,799
own the color black or vantablack
419
00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:57,299
how do you know how do you own a
420
00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,220
conversation that's kind of what the
421
00:18:57,299 --> 00:19:01,590
work of what like artists try and do you
422
00:18:59,220 --> 00:19:02,940
know a mess and that's to do with the
423
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:03,960
architecture so there's a lot to do with
424
00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:05,340
that so sometimes it's your race
425
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,559
sometimes it's agenda that will allow
426
00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:10,110
you to like control a conversation of
427
00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,970
control an idea of course you know you
428
00:19:10,110 --> 00:19:13,350
can be like hit back and they can be
429
00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:15,090
activism against that and so that's
430
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:17,700
gonna transform how someone who's an
431
00:19:15,090 --> 00:19:20,429
opposite racial gender or what have you
432
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,980
or an alternative racial gender to kind
433
00:19:20,429 --> 00:19:25,049
of you know that will also frame how you
434
00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:27,360
see or understand something so it's this
435
00:19:25,049 --> 00:19:30,179
kind of like war of frameworks and war
436
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,799
about you know even kind of miniature
437
00:19:30,179 --> 00:19:34,590
ontology is that you know worried
438
00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:36,059
against each other in some way so that's
439
00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:37,919
a lot sooner that I do think I've said
440
00:19:36,059 --> 00:19:40,110
that geography doesn't matter but it
441
00:19:37,919 --> 00:19:41,970
kind of does in some ways because not in
442
00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:44,190
terms of geography but in terms of sight
443
00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:46,950
so you know I've got this thing I don't
444
00:19:44,190 --> 00:19:49,799
know what I kind of I'm I have to tell
445
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:51,630
you I'm just I'm not sure about from
446
00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,160
brands like I didn't use iam I just
447
00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:55,440
think it's that's the problem I think
448
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,850
that maybe it's the white cube so I'm a
449
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,160
you know I like the way to you I'm
450
00:19:56,850 --> 00:20:01,080
interested in the white key when I when
451
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:06,570
I first went to Nigeria and I before I
452
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:08,760
did that I would do these little
453
00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:10,200
articulations on the streets and like
454
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,270
you know just do this bullshit on the
455
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,590
street it's like doing that import I
456
00:20:12,270 --> 00:20:15,150
thought you know making little
457
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:19,620
particulates in the street let my little
458
00:20:15,150 --> 00:20:21,210
art vomit say no no absolutely there's
459
00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:22,679
too much noise going on anyway and
460
00:20:21,210 --> 00:20:27,750
that's a second seatin of me to think
461
00:20:22,679 --> 00:20:30,240
that the white cube that was actually
462
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:31,890
the most radical thing I could do in
463
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,600
that space you know dedicated space that
464
00:20:31,890 --> 00:20:36,360
was not transactional that was not about
465
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,130
commerce and make it devoid of any kind
466
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,260
of like noise and in that sense there's
467
00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:41,520
so much of that
468
00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:43,230
so the white Kubis is actually beautiful
469
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,480
to void space and empty space that
470
00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:47,430
anything you put in it you have to you
471
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,710
have to think about it differently we're
472
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:50,790
forced to consider it differently so for
473
00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:52,500
me the white space is interesting
474
00:20:50,790 --> 00:20:53,910
however this white space the police
475
00:20:52,500 --> 00:21:00,420
force awaits for base because it's
476
00:20:53,910 --> 00:21:02,850
transformed my father's office and it
477
00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:04,500
had a history of mainly writers coming
478
00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:06,210
in and actors what happened you know
479
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,800
coming in and discussing and it was also
480
00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:10,680
a commercial space so Bay's histories
481
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,750
are also working and so I think that's
482
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,590
what's really interesting security
483
00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:19,100
[Music]
484
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:19,100
breaking up a little bit
485
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:28,830
so as you know you're breaking up baby
486
00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:37,930
yeah there's a museum oh sorry
487
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:42,220
the my internet is unstable apparent so
488
00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:44,050
I do you think it's take I do its
489
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:46,720
history there and I talked about you
490
00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:49,390
have to Sir John Mick and colonial kind
491
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,040
of like layers that are embedded in the
492
00:21:49,390 --> 00:21:53,140
storytelling law and I don't know how
493
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,210
you do that actually within such a
494
00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:59,170
museum I feel like you have to take it
495
00:21:55,210 --> 00:22:00,610
out and put it in a way you stays oh you
496
00:21:59,170 --> 00:22:02,080
know like for example what's a name
497
00:22:00,610 --> 00:22:04,930
Carol Walker did that you know how
498
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:08,080
beautiful the sugar my mother the mother
499
00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:09,520
sorry sugar baby the succulents and the
500
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,380
big figure that she did you know I just
501
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,470
think that you know doing that in a
502
00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:16,150
factory there's no those layers you know
503
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:18,910
there's so much you can do there's like
504
00:22:16,150 --> 00:22:20,170
so many exciting propositions that we
505
00:22:18,910 --> 00:22:22,690
can do but I just think that when you
506
00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:24,460
put it in that space when you put it in
507
00:22:22,690 --> 00:22:26,980
a particular inside museum you're saying
508
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:28,570
something very very you know it you know
509
00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:31,240
you're gonna have to work and work
510
00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:32,710
against that history so I mean I'm sure
511
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,090
there's very sexy exciting ways of
512
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:36,760
pushing back against that within that
513
00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:38,020
space potentially so I'm not saying you
514
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,610
can't do something there but you have
515
00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:41,980
you are always in conversation with the
516
00:22:39,610 --> 00:22:43,960
site so that's definitely going to be a
517
00:22:41,980 --> 00:22:46,470
part of it a slightly put on your
518
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,180
question but I hope I've answered no
519
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:52,000
direction but I want to just bring it
520
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:55,240
back on the figure of the of the the
521
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:58,740
Jana's faced ontology and many
522
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,210
sculptures and figurines and icons and
523
00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:03,190
motifs that are both verbal as well as
524
00:23:01,210 --> 00:23:05,110
visual throughout certainly the West
525
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:07,480
African aesthetics that I know I'm
526
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:09,350
familiar with where you have figures
527
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,840
looking in
528
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:14,690
opposite directions it can be forward
529
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:19,190
and back it can be left and right and
530
00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:23,600
sometimes be up and down and I wonder if
531
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:25,880
you can unpack the the work being done
532
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:32,030
and or the just the dimensionality of
533
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:32,419
that vector itself cool so my what I
534
00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:34,250
said
535
00:23:32,419 --> 00:23:36,380
all these artworks very live right and
536
00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:37,760
they exist in one way in particular
537
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:39,860
particular site and they can exist in
538
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,140
other ways in different spaces in
539
00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:43,909
different contexts and with different
540
00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:46,429
spells and incantations and storytelling
541
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:49,820
surrounding it and you know and I think
542
00:23:46,429 --> 00:23:51,200
in a sense that's what I mean by because
543
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:52,850
we're trying to remember when I called
544
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,130
you in the beginning and I also speak to
545
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:57,230
Erica P Jones what does that thing works
546
00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:59,419
like it's you know you know we talk
547
00:23:57,230 --> 00:24:00,950
about power and power powerful art where
548
00:23:59,419 --> 00:24:03,169
it's like oh it can harm the person
549
00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:04,400
that's intended to harm or whatever but
550
00:24:03,169 --> 00:24:06,409
at the same time it's a powerful piece
551
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,419
of art and it changes how you feel what
552
00:24:06,409 --> 00:24:10,429
is you know but it's the same thing
553
00:24:08,419 --> 00:24:12,080
that's why I ended up with Janus face
554
00:24:10,429 --> 00:24:14,990
ontology because it is this it's the
555
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,539
same thing with different heads on
556
00:24:14,990 --> 00:24:19,640
either end so that's culture so you know
557
00:24:17,539 --> 00:24:21,679
when it rises to the surface but yeah
558
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,140
there's a cultural performance but it's
559
00:24:21,679 --> 00:24:25,700
still the same thing so there are going
560
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:27,890
to be multiple cultural performances
561
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,720
literally in different countries
562
00:24:27,890 --> 00:24:31,640
different places different sites but
563
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,470
it's still the same thing I think I was
564
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,659
think about art you know when it
565
00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:38,570
retreats and it's just it's it's on its
566
00:24:35,659 --> 00:24:42,110
own and it's not filtered through us
567
00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:44,090
what is art without us viewing it you
568
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:46,520
know what is it on its own what is what
569
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:47,750
is that entity and you know my thing
570
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,690
right now is I'm always thinking in
571
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:52,940
terms of I think of ideas as aliens as
572
00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:55,490
beings you know they're actually actual
573
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:57,860
beings and the sometimes they come
574
00:24:55,490 --> 00:24:59,330
through to us but they are all their own
575
00:24:57,860 --> 00:25:01,940
being we don't own it we're not a part
576
00:24:59,330 --> 00:25:06,380
of it it's just up to us to shape it but
577
00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:08,270
it's its own being I can just build on
578
00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:11,210
that a bit because in anthropology
579
00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:12,980
there's been a lot of work we fairly
580
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:15,230
recently under the rubric of the
581
00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:17,620
ontological turn where anthropologists
582
00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:20,780
are trying to get away from interpreting
583
00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:23,000
some cultural phenomenon or perspective
584
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:24,860
in relation to some bedrock reality
585
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:29,810
like social structure political action
586
00:25:24,860 --> 00:25:32,810
but rather to accept the terms of the of
587
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:34,700
a given world and then figure out what's
588
00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:36,980
possible and not possible within it and
589
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:39,430
from what you've said about the miss
590
00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:42,580
Jana's face
591
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:45,620
ontology is that it's it's a kind of
592
00:25:42,580 --> 00:25:49,100
it's almost like a wormhole in Star Trek
593
00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:50,810
where it's the channel through which you
594
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:53,600
go from one of these contexts you just
595
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:55,040
talked about to another mmm alright
596
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,540
looks very different the performance
597
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,650
looks very different but as you say it's
598
00:25:56,540 --> 00:26:03,890
the same thing it's and I wonder whether
599
00:25:59,650 --> 00:26:06,560
there's also temporality facilitated
600
00:26:03,890 --> 00:26:10,130
through this portal or portal the
601
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:14,450
wormhole be the idea that you can access
602
00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:16,220
the past into the present or even if
603
00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:19,730
you're a good diviner or if you're good
604
00:26:16,220 --> 00:26:22,040
you know someone who can do you found
605
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:25,670
even it you you bring the future into
606
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:29,620
the present and you can then re dress a
607
00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:32,330
bad future that is coming in if you
608
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:34,340
perform a certain kind of sacrifice at
609
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:36,170
the babalao it tells you to do do we
610
00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:38,780
arrange the future before it happens so
611
00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:42,560
I see these and I'm wondering whether
612
00:26:38,780 --> 00:26:47,390
this Jana's face structure can
613
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,170
accommodate that kind of it kind I'm
614
00:26:47,390 --> 00:26:49,280
actually gonna go in a slightly
615
00:26:48,170 --> 00:26:50,660
different direction because it just came
616
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,130
into my mind and this concerts been
617
00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:54,140
really fluid for me right now and I'm
618
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:55,760
having a hard time kind of like locking
619
00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:59,050
it down but what it is is that okay you
620
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,050
know when I talk to me end about
621
00:26:59,710 --> 00:27:04,140
it doesn't matter whether the thing that
622
00:27:01,870 --> 00:27:06,550
happened to me after visiting I visited
623
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:08,650
an art collectors home in Park Avenue
624
00:27:06,550 --> 00:27:10,690
and the next morning I had a really
625
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:12,550
terrifying spiritual experience right
626
00:27:10,690 --> 00:27:15,010
and it's not the idea of whether it's
627
00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:16,630
true whether it's just a thought that I
628
00:27:15,010 --> 00:27:19,210
thought that it might be so that
629
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:21,670
distinction the actual truth of it or
630
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:23,920
the feeling that it was true you know so
631
00:27:21,670 --> 00:27:26,170
it did its work anyway right this thing
632
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,270
of like thinking that it might do that
633
00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:31,000
suggestion meaning that it's done it's
634
00:27:28,270 --> 00:27:32,710
fun what it was supposed to do but it
635
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,970
has done what you know would it imagine
636
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:39,310
that it could do so there's this thing
637
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:41,530
of power and power is that power and
638
00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:43,540
power again you know so I don't know how
639
00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:45,850
it would function in you know if someone
640
00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:47,230
was like using a power object to enact
641
00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:49,480
something and it would have a very
642
00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:51,700
direct effect and in the way that it's
643
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,200
you know carried out or choreographed
644
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,600
with the choreography is gonna be
645
00:27:53,200 --> 00:28:01,150
different in a different place you know
646
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:02,710
so but it's still the same thing so this
647
00:28:01,150 --> 00:28:04,540
one's a slippery one it's really hard
648
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:05,980
when I'm gonna be honest and I haven't
649
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:07,690
really fully drilled down to this but
650
00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:09,880
I'm excited that I haven't drilled down
651
00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:11,470
because I just think that the process
652
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,500
and the work are drilling down into this
653
00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:16,060
particular idea is and this is where
654
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:18,400
it's exciting you know this is where
655
00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:21,190
this kind of work needs to take us you
656
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,930
know this is like physic this is you
657
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:25,650
know this is really exciting stuff this
658
00:28:22,930 --> 00:28:27,730
is the the philosophy and the
659
00:28:25,650 --> 00:28:29,200
information and the cosmic this is the
660
00:28:27,730 --> 00:28:30,430
area that I actually found way more
661
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,230
interesting I'm not interested in just
662
00:28:30,430 --> 00:28:34,060
like okay this was used to do this and
663
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:35,440
we plot you know when I either when I'm
664
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:37,600
talking about oh we use this for
665
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,400
planting season some good good luck you
666
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,020
know that is not what we're supposed to
667
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,750
be doing I'll say it but that's like
668
00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:45,790
let's just the performance a service
669
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:48,810
performance of what this mask is all
670
00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:51,460
about this like world's underneath it
671
00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:52,810
there are worlds underneath this and the
672
00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:54,730
fact that all we have is the
673
00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:56,710
conversation about this is what these
674
00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:58,900
people think that this mask will do and
675
00:28:56,710 --> 00:29:00,790
then in the Western sense this belong to
676
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:02,590
Helena Rubinstein and this belong to you
677
00:29:00,790 --> 00:29:05,020
know and those are the two stories were
678
00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:07,450
telling excuse me know there are more
679
00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:09,460
stories than this right there are more
680
00:29:07,450 --> 00:29:11,740
stories let's submit to the work let's
681
00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:13,630
submit to this art and then we start to
682
00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:15,280
tear things apart
683
00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:17,260
it's just like all these wormholes is
684
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,680
you say it opened up when we have that
685
00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:22,480
conversation mm-hmm no I'm excited by
686
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,540
this too but I think this is where new
687
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,190
research can go mm-hmm both in terms of
688
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:30,550
our practice but also in terms of
689
00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:32,620
philosophy and this is what
690
00:29:30,550 --> 00:29:34,720
object-oriented ontology is kind of
691
00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:36,580
doing for me I just see it is like the
692
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,470
flip side of animism you know it's just
693
00:29:36,580 --> 00:29:40,390
like you know in Africa we've been knew
694
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:45,250
this as they say I'm on the internet we
695
00:29:40,390 --> 00:29:46,900
would be new so like you know trees all
696
00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:48,640
the rivers having some sort of like you
697
00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:50,650
know identity of their own and some sort
698
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,450
of you know a vitality in the life force
699
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:55,090
of their own you know so it's this you
700
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:56,320
know it's kind of to me like a really
701
00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:58,090
interesting conversation that's the same
702
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,070
thing and that's where we're going and
703
00:29:58,090 --> 00:30:02,380
also in this time of covert and this
704
00:30:00,070 --> 00:30:04,720
time we're like the earth is asserting
705
00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:06,280
itself when we've been quiet and you
706
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,980
know this sense that you know being
707
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,630
quiet and listening to listening to
708
00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:12,940
animals or watching how they're just
709
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:14,440
like coming back and if we are quiet and
710
00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:16,690
we let the rest of the world speak
711
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,940
there's always you know there's there's
712
00:30:16,690 --> 00:30:22,780
there are multiple universes on the
713
00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:26,070
earth you know you mentioned kovin and
714
00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:26,070
the crisis and
715
00:30:26,780 --> 00:30:32,600
parallel sort of thought process to what
716
00:30:30,650 --> 00:30:35,600
you described when you say it wasn't
717
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,870
that this affliction in the art dealers
718
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,820
or the collectors house or apartment was
719
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:43,670
real but the fact that the possibility
720
00:30:40,820 --> 00:30:45,080
it was real and and I think of this you
721
00:30:43,670 --> 00:30:47,630
know I've been involved with climate
722
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,000
change and you know the we've all
723
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:53,090
experienced an administration that has
724
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,890
rolled back the access to data rolled
725
00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:57,800
back the regulations rolled back
726
00:30:54,890 --> 00:30:59,900
everything to enable you know the big
727
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,180
carbon companies to just make as much
728
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:08,710
money as they can and at the expense of
729
00:31:02,180 --> 00:31:11,240
the world and I'm not you know I I
730
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:13,400
consider myself to be a realist whatever
731
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,130
that means but it does occur to me that
732
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,810
this virus is a way of earth saying all
733
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:21,920
right you've tried and failed you're not
734
00:31:19,810 --> 00:31:24,650
you're not you're not cooling the planet
735
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,780
so we're gonna we're gonna evolve these
736
00:31:24,650 --> 00:31:29,530
little microchips in order to go ahead
737
00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:32,360
and infect you guys slow down your
738
00:31:29,530 --> 00:31:37,760
consumption slow down here your carbon
739
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:40,580
emissions allow you know bees to to come
740
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,680
back and you know you know you can hear
741
00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:45,440
the birds now they're chirping more than
742
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:48,710
ever it's it's putting capitalism fast
743
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,260
capitalism on hold so I think these
744
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:53,450
things are in an interesting way it's
745
00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:56,870
worth considering together I honestly do
746
00:31:53,450 --> 00:32:00,580
um I'd love to go on and that theme but
747
00:31:56,870 --> 00:32:00,580
I just want to cover a couple of bases
748
00:32:05,530 --> 00:32:11,600
see them piling up to them in a second
749
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:14,510
so a few other things you clearly
750
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,730
demonstrate how African masks serve as
751
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:20,360
vehicles of European storytelling in
752
00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:22,220
your in your piece I'm wondering what
753
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,360
the parallel vehicles of African
754
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:28,910
storytelling may be or is their efficacy
755
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,450
predicated on more of a non narrative
756
00:32:28,910 --> 00:32:33,620
logic or technology of you use can you
757
00:32:32,450 --> 00:32:36,500
solve that again I'm really sorry I was
758
00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:38,660
distracted by the question so yeah it's
759
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:40,429
it's really the question of how you make
760
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:43,159
the case very clearly that Africa
761
00:32:40,429 --> 00:32:48,259
masks are service vehicles of European
762
00:32:43,159 --> 00:32:52,220
storytelling the how do we understand
763
00:32:48,259 --> 00:32:55,970
and you may not like the idea of looking
764
00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:57,409
at the other side in terms of in what
765
00:32:55,970 --> 00:33:01,309
ways can they serve as vehicles of
766
00:32:57,409 --> 00:33:03,409
African storytelling or is their
767
00:33:01,309 --> 00:33:08,809
efficacy predicated on non-narrative
768
00:33:03,409 --> 00:33:10,879
logics and technologies of use well I'm
769
00:33:08,809 --> 00:33:12,499
gonna show my ass and just say I do
770
00:33:10,879 --> 00:33:14,389
think we need to have a much more
771
00:33:12,499 --> 00:33:16,749
explicit form of storytelling I just do
772
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:19,610
I mean maybe there are all these other
773
00:33:16,749 --> 00:33:22,190
technologies at work but do the African
774
00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:25,190
storytelling force perhaps I concede
775
00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:27,350
that in the film but in the meantime I
776
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:28,730
would like to see more explicit and
777
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:31,340
scaffolding in terms of African
778
00:33:28,730 --> 00:33:33,200
storytelling around it because I you
779
00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:34,730
know partly it's racism definitely I
780
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,619
would say in terms of like you know
781
00:33:34,730 --> 00:33:37,460
minimizing the African story and just
782
00:33:36,619 --> 00:33:39,169
thinking well they're not that
783
00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:41,539
interesting and just only understanding
784
00:33:39,169 --> 00:33:43,669
the surface and not
785
00:33:41,539 --> 00:33:45,320
and not worrying the Silence of the
786
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:48,080
Africans when they won't tell you and
787
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,519
they don't tell you anything you know
788
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,109
that kind of silence and assuming
789
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:53,470
there's a lack of knowledge and not
790
00:33:51,109 --> 00:33:56,629
understanding that it's Fredman
791
00:33:53,470 --> 00:33:58,429
but then you know yes we have you know
792
00:33:56,629 --> 00:34:00,979
you talk about secrets so learn secrets
793
00:33:58,429 --> 00:34:02,570
or secret I love that phrase this idea
794
00:34:00,979 --> 00:34:05,779
of like okay fine we and we host these
795
00:34:02,570 --> 00:34:07,850
secrets but at the same time it's you
796
00:34:05,779 --> 00:34:09,649
know then they still go off and are able
797
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:11,149
to you know tell the story of the object
798
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:12,290
in their perspective and you owned it
799
00:34:11,149 --> 00:34:14,629
and that's what they care about it
800
00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:18,139
becomes that you know the value is
801
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:19,760
raised in that way so you know I just so
802
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:22,099
that's why I feel that there is there is
803
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,530
a problem in that sense and I do I want
804
00:34:22,099 --> 00:34:26,540
to see I want to see more storytelling I
805
00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:29,750
do I do want it's more kind of like
806
00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:32,119
written explicit or through art you know
807
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:33,980
art making and curating that kind of
808
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:36,889
storytelling around it
809
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:38,299
I say from African perspective but you
810
00:34:36,889 --> 00:34:40,280
know it could be anyone in the sense
811
00:34:38,299 --> 00:34:42,079
telling that story but what you have to
812
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,849
have is the heart you have to have the
813
00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:46,010
kind of openness and the vulnerability
814
00:34:43,849 --> 00:34:47,179
to the people and the work and that's
815
00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:49,010
the thing that I think is going to be a
816
00:34:47,179 --> 00:34:51,679
bit of a leak for certain people that
817
00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:54,379
you know when you're faced with a maybe
818
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:56,510
you're not as literate artists in the
819
00:34:54,379 --> 00:34:57,680
village creating these carving works
820
00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:59,359
they're not like though you know they're
821
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,099
not like a you know internet
822
00:34:59,359 --> 00:35:03,200
international artist that lives in Lagos
823
00:35:01,099 --> 00:35:04,579
or whatever you know that goes to be an
824
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,859
owl's around the world it's not that
825
00:35:04,579 --> 00:35:09,440
we're going to the village right how are
826
00:35:06,859 --> 00:35:10,849
you gonna relate to that person and what
827
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,260
I'm having to start telling you in this
828
00:35:10,849 --> 00:35:13,579
in this film that you have to relate to
829
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:16,280
the person as if they are you equal
830
00:35:13,579 --> 00:35:19,099
because people are not relationship that
831
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,530
equal they aren't they don't look at
832
00:35:19,099 --> 00:35:24,829
them and think that this person is that
833
00:35:21,530 --> 00:35:28,150
equal they don't think that so you in
834
00:35:24,829 --> 00:35:31,099
effect are have become a storyteller
835
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:35,420
regarding promise lagoons work to some
836
00:35:31,099 --> 00:35:39,200
extent and I wonder how the datas of his
837
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:42,349
art is understood in Nigeria what kind
838
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,930
of stories do people tell about his work
839
00:35:42,349 --> 00:35:48,500
that you have to dialogue with to get
840
00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:54,079
your points across honest with you I
841
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:55,100
wasn't to know what's in their hearts
842
00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:57,170
and minds I don't know
843
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:59,330
I'll tell you there's nothing that I
844
00:35:57,170 --> 00:36:00,980
literally can't tell you what they deep
845
00:35:59,330 --> 00:36:07,670
down thought to this I don't know and
846
00:36:00,980 --> 00:36:09,440
promise hasn't spoken to you and as if
847
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:11,090
you can get hold of him because in the
848
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,470
village it's kind of hard to get you
849
00:36:11,090 --> 00:36:14,120
know it's hard to get old women also
850
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:16,460
even trying to track him down sometimes
851
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,170
you know there's a lot of violence in a
852
00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:20,120
girl and and so I don't think right now
853
00:36:18,170 --> 00:36:21,830
he's not actually at home when I asked
854
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,580
some people to do this filming they had
855
00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:27,800
to set up because violins that had taken
856
00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:29,270
place you know this you know all this
857
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,250
stuff is really real so it's kind of
858
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:33,680
it's it's tenuous me trying to put this
859
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:37,250
thing together as it's dangerous and
860
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:39,200
it's tenuous but I don't know so I'm
861
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:43,820
doing this storytelling but it's also I
862
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:45,470
mean he's Facebook but you know I still
863
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:46,700
promise on Facebook so I think he is
864
00:36:45,470 --> 00:36:49,820
there somewhere but I don't know what
865
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:55,430
the I have never seen a facebook update
866
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:58,280
from well I'm getting signals from from
867
00:36:55,430 --> 00:37:00,050
our bosses that we need to you know
868
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,360
transitions has open things up and get
869
00:37:00,050 --> 00:37:04,460
to other questions I'm not going to ask
870
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,650
that question on restitution I was
871
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:08,930
planning and repatriation because that
872
00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:12,470
that one is that will come up when it
873
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:15,710
comes up and I'm not going to ask you
874
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:20,150
about how to some extent your what I
875
00:37:15,710 --> 00:37:22,610
call your kind of eco aesthetics relates
876
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:24,680
to the legacy of your father's eco
877
00:37:22,610 --> 00:37:27,260
politics I'll let that one come up when
878
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,360
it does or if it does but I want to ask
879
00:37:27,260 --> 00:37:32,450
about this wonderful figure of speech
880
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:35,170
you use when you describe certain masks
881
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:37,580
and figurines as microchips of Negritude
882
00:37:35,170 --> 00:37:39,950
it's one of my favorite phrases in your
883
00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:42,920
piece and I wonder if you could expand
884
00:37:39,950 --> 00:37:44,830
on that designation and what I like
885
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,480
about your discussion is that you are
886
00:37:44,830 --> 00:37:52,640
again it's kind of Janus faced it's
887
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:56,180
located at the intersection of a Western
888
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:59,200
discourse of Negritude and a more afro
889
00:37:56,180 --> 00:38:05,250
centric as in non euro centric notion of
890
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:08,100
what what after Kennedy is in microchip
891
00:38:05,250 --> 00:38:11,820
it's a technology and say it's a wiring
892
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:17,930
it's linked to a network can you can you
893
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:20,700
riff on that this is thing about
894
00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:22,660
essentialism in a way right it doesn't
895
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:25,110
look like
896
00:38:22,660 --> 00:38:27,160
I always think in terms of okay we have
897
00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:27,910
contemporary African art that exists
898
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,130
already we've got all these amazing
899
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:32,410
artists doing beautiful work and I put
900
00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:34,060
some my favorites up there in the film
901
00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:36,670
you know who are making work in the West
902
00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:38,490
and it within in different paradigms and
903
00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:41,740
formats not making the kind of
904
00:38:38,490 --> 00:38:45,880
traditional or you know some of it is
905
00:38:41,740 --> 00:38:47,230
votive worship kind of making but not
906
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,660
all of it is but whatever it's a
907
00:38:47,230 --> 00:38:50,800
different kind of making altogether but
908
00:38:49,660 --> 00:38:53,620
it's just like it's a very unique
909
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,740
practice so how do we relate this to the
910
00:38:53,620 --> 00:38:57,970
rest of it why does it still matter and
911
00:38:55,740 --> 00:39:01,030
for me I when I thought about it I just
912
00:38:57,970 --> 00:39:02,410
like you know what because that is you
913
00:39:01,030 --> 00:39:03,580
know this is when you're channeling
914
00:39:02,410 --> 00:39:05,380
completely and you're not like
915
00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:07,150
considering other people you're not they
916
00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:08,680
say there is something okay and I hate
917
00:39:07,150 --> 00:39:11,140
that because it means that I'm saying
918
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,150
that it's okay that it's like there is a
919
00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:15,250
some there is an essence but there is an
920
00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:18,640
essence but it's a seat and then the
921
00:39:15,250 --> 00:39:21,790
seed transforms and you know expresses
922
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,610
itself differently in different parts of
923
00:39:21,790 --> 00:39:28,060
the world itself one way in Peru or in
924
00:39:24,610 --> 00:39:29,680
by ear or in New Orleans or canhe to you
925
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:32,080
and Cuba you know it's just you know in
926
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,000
London it's just different how this
927
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,130
expresses itself but it's a you know
928
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,350
there is something you there isn't we
929
00:39:36,130 --> 00:39:42,340
know there's something unique about
930
00:39:37,350 --> 00:39:46,030
Negritude you know we are unique and we
931
00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:48,190
along we scare there's an energy that we
932
00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:49,960
thrill it is that thing you know when
933
00:39:48,190 --> 00:39:52,810
people are sort of bit of a afraid of
934
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,170
black people you know I'm like yeah I
935
00:39:52,810 --> 00:39:55,030
get it
936
00:39:53,170 --> 00:39:56,200
I kind of understand it I remember
937
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:58,450
they're coming from like yeah there is
938
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,370
this thing there is this like aliveness
939
00:39:58,450 --> 00:40:03,040
in this loudness that's just like it's
940
00:40:00,370 --> 00:40:05,170
true and I like to lean into stereotypes
941
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,580
I'm like hmm let's lean into it let's
942
00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:10,540
look at that let's not be afraid of it
943
00:40:06,580 --> 00:40:12,310
let's not run away what is that about
944
00:40:10,540 --> 00:40:13,750
and we don't know anything that
945
00:40:12,310 --> 00:40:15,640
spiritual technologies we don't know
946
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:18,490
what frequencies or we're actually as
947
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,470
people live sitting on we didn't know
948
00:40:18,490 --> 00:40:22,030
those frequencies and once we start to
949
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:24,280
have a language that can deal with this
950
00:40:22,030 --> 00:40:26,200
invisible world which deals with
951
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,730
invisible vibrations all these things we
952
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,770
can suddenly see oh my god that's the
953
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:32,110
vibration and magnitude oh my god that's
954
00:40:29,770 --> 00:40:33,250
this vibration and once you start to see
955
00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:34,510
that then we'll start to understand
956
00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:36,500
what's actually happening so I do you
957
00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:40,840
think that the masks with
958
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:43,130
means a really sure expression of this
959
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,010
but that doesn't mean that you know we
960
00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:51,260
have to keep doing that in order to be
961
00:40:45,010 --> 00:40:53,150
authentic you know it's a seed nice well
962
00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:55,280
that's a lovely note for us to end our
963
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:57,740
conversation on I'd like to carry it
964
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:00,830
further but we've got some nice
965
00:40:57,740 --> 00:41:05,980
questions coming up great you want to
966
00:41:00,830 --> 00:41:10,580
take just go through yourself yeah okay
967
00:41:05,980 --> 00:41:12,860
thank you too tender woodsy sorry if I
968
00:41:10,580 --> 00:41:14,390
pronounced it wrong thank you for your
969
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:16,700
time and condolences for your recent
970
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:18,590
loss thank you my question has to do
971
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:20,090
with colonial gatekeeping I don't think
972
00:41:18,590 --> 00:41:23,390
gatekeeping should be directed at
973
00:41:20,090 --> 00:41:27,380
oneself or at other African artists are
974
00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:28,820
just is erudite or not I think deciding
975
00:41:27,380 --> 00:41:31,070
what is and isn't art in reference to
976
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:33,440
African objects as colonial absorption
977
00:41:31,070 --> 00:41:38,390
how do we move around this judgment
978
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:46,670
Spade do you have an answer for that
979
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:48,350
Andy it's a great question um what is
980
00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:50,150
art and what isn't I mean in a way
981
00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:52,070
that's what I was trying to dissolve in
982
00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:54,620
a sense you know dissolving the kind of
983
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:56,810
you know this idea of artifact and art
984
00:41:54,620 --> 00:41:58,550
and just saying that actually you have
985
00:41:56,810 --> 00:42:00,860
to go into the space and sort of you
986
00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:02,510
know I don't not all not all car bizarre
987
00:42:00,860 --> 00:42:04,310
artists you know that people who carve
988
00:42:02,510 --> 00:42:05,870
isn't mean they're artists but I also
989
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:07,520
think that not everyone you know who's
990
00:42:05,870 --> 00:42:08,750
an artist in the West and calls himself
991
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,920
an artist because they went to art
992
00:42:08,750 --> 00:42:12,080
school they're showing gallery doesn't
993
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,170
mean that they make transcendental work
994
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,270
it doesn't so I like I said you know it
995
00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:18,860
when you feel it you know it when you
996
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:20,930
see it you feel it that's the thing that
997
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:22,850
we talk about so for me that's how you
998
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:25,310
move around it about a certain kind of
999
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:27,020
openness to the work and being
1000
00:42:25,310 --> 00:42:28,130
vulnerable to work that's you know
1001
00:42:27,020 --> 00:42:29,750
that's something that I'm really really
1002
00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:31,250
interested in that's an area I'd like to
1003
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:32,960
move into a little bit more and I think
1004
00:42:31,250 --> 00:42:34,940
we're thinking a lot about where does
1005
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,530
the art world go from here or now and
1006
00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:38,980
I'm actually gonna write about this I
1007
00:42:36,530 --> 00:42:42,410
think this like meditating on
1008
00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:45,080
traditional African art making is giving
1009
00:42:42,410 --> 00:42:47,840
me so much information as to you know
1010
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,339
where art goes and what art is actually
1011
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,460
for and
1012
00:42:49,339 --> 00:42:54,640
not flat like politicking l sort of like
1013
00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:56,960
you know what aunty whoa kind of like
1014
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,210
storytelling you know it's like it's so
1015
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,239
much deeper than that we all have to go
1016
00:42:59,210 --> 00:43:04,059
deeper and art can signal that and we
1017
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:09,049
have to let it respond to those signals
1018
00:43:04,059 --> 00:43:11,719
so yes so I just think opening up to art
1019
00:43:09,049 --> 00:43:13,609
in a particular way and changing the
1020
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,890
conversation around it and submitting to
1021
00:43:13,609 --> 00:43:17,839
it and maybe the ceremonies around it
1022
00:43:15,890 --> 00:43:19,069
needs to change you know the ceremony of
1023
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:21,619
the 6:00 to 8:00 p.m.
1024
00:43:19,069 --> 00:43:23,029
opening and the ceremony of the private
1025
00:43:21,619 --> 00:43:24,739
dinner but only certain people that
1026
00:43:23,029 --> 00:43:26,450
might be invited for dinner but not
1027
00:43:24,739 --> 00:43:29,119
others want advice from dinner the
1028
00:43:26,450 --> 00:43:32,719
ceremony of the Biennale the ceremony of
1029
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:34,670
the Arts there these are all ceremonies
1030
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,499
around arts so are we going to think
1031
00:43:34,670 --> 00:43:38,450
about different ceremonies that actor
1032
00:43:36,499 --> 00:43:39,680
they are all makers respond to art in a
1033
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:42,469
different way so I think that's what it
1034
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,979
is think about the choreography of our
1035
00:43:42,469 --> 00:43:48,829
responses to this spiritual activity
1036
00:43:45,979 --> 00:43:50,719
which is what art is it should be how
1037
00:43:48,829 --> 00:43:52,430
can we I hope what's the question how
1038
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:55,910
can we use the Benjamins and the
1039
00:43:52,430 --> 00:43:58,359
Benjamins notion of the hora to think
1040
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:58,359
about
1041
00:43:59,559 --> 00:44:03,670
Marilia I don't understand the question
1042
00:44:01,689 --> 00:44:04,839
can you type it again please Marilia is
1043
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:12,819
one of my favorite students from Pratt
1044
00:44:04,839 --> 00:44:15,609
okay to ten okay gasps Xena sorry can I
1045
00:44:12,819 --> 00:44:18,640
ask one from it's a straightforward
1046
00:44:15,609 --> 00:44:23,859
question coming from the other source
1047
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:26,799
okay we form that was this is from Ellen
1048
00:44:23,859 --> 00:44:28,479
Pearlstein and the question is has
1049
00:44:26,799 --> 00:44:31,989
promises worked and collected by any
1050
00:44:28,479 --> 00:44:33,609
museums that as of this point okay she's
1051
00:44:31,989 --> 00:44:36,130
an interesting question so the thing is
1052
00:44:33,609 --> 00:44:38,680
that I said that he makes his work for
1053
00:44:36,130 --> 00:44:41,079
people in the community right but then
1054
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,509
he actually has these people there's a
1055
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:45,339
one togolese diamonds and a house a man
1056
00:44:43,509 --> 00:44:49,479
from the north and they actually buy
1057
00:44:45,339 --> 00:44:50,859
work off him and they he doesn't talk he
1058
00:44:49,479 --> 00:44:52,140
doesn't ask too many questions he
1059
00:44:50,859 --> 00:44:55,509
doesn't want to disrupt that particular
1060
00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:57,069
market of his but this work gets taken
1061
00:44:55,509 --> 00:44:59,650
to francophone somewhere in francophone
1062
00:44:57,069 --> 00:45:00,969
Africa Togo probably beyond and I'm
1063
00:44:59,650 --> 00:45:02,799
presuming he gets sold to you that's
1064
00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:06,400
where the majority of his work goes to
1065
00:45:02,799 --> 00:45:08,529
it's not you know the market in Ogoni
1066
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,509
it's just like you know you until the
1067
00:45:08,529 --> 00:45:11,949
mast dies that's me then you get a new
1068
00:45:10,509 --> 00:45:13,749
one or if you want to commemorate
1069
00:45:11,949 --> 00:45:15,729
something specific so it's not like in
1070
00:45:13,749 --> 00:45:17,589
massive 1000 but he's got so much work
1071
00:45:15,729 --> 00:45:19,599
because made him work for himself he's
1072
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:20,859
always making work that's why I see him
1073
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:23,679
as an artist he's got this like
1074
00:45:20,859 --> 00:45:25,029
compulsion but it does get bought right
1075
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:26,650
let's say there is a market see who
1076
00:45:25,029 --> 00:45:30,670
knows if some of the stuff that you see
1077
00:45:26,650 --> 00:45:33,640
in museums or collectors aren't his work
1078
00:45:30,670 --> 00:45:36,099
it may well be because also they liens
1079
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,900
say that oh this is very very old or
1080
00:45:36,099 --> 00:45:40,509
this they have to do that in order to
1081
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:42,640
sell the work to make appealing to you
1082
00:45:40,509 --> 00:45:45,279
know you know connoisseurs in the West
1083
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,630
you know so this is one of the things I
1084
00:45:45,279 --> 00:45:48,249
really want you to do to launch a
1085
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:50,380
research project to find out what
1086
00:45:48,249 --> 00:45:53,380
happens to these works you know this is
1087
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:54,880
a leaking of our cultural capital so for
1088
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:56,439
me it's very interesting to understand
1089
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,109
what has happened what is happening to
1090
00:45:56,439 --> 00:46:00,309
it and but you know I'm not able to do
1091
00:45:59,109 --> 00:46:01,689
that in this stuff I'm trying to
1092
00:46:00,309 --> 00:46:03,279
fundraise or so this is something I
1093
00:46:01,689 --> 00:46:05,679
would love to understand say a nossa to
1094
00:46:03,279 --> 00:46:07,449
your question then it may well his work
1095
00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:08,979
may well be but they wouldn't have his
1096
00:46:07,449 --> 00:46:11,140
name attached to it and that's the
1097
00:46:08,979 --> 00:46:13,330
problem as far as I'm concerned but no
1098
00:46:11,140 --> 00:46:15,880
as far as I know he's um
1099
00:46:13,330 --> 00:46:18,990
let me show he's been in is in the white
1100
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,990
queue slices voice forces
1101
00:46:22,799 --> 00:46:29,519
want to give it another crack at Maria's
1102
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:32,959
question no I'll come back later my
1103
00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:35,719
radius she knows me I'm interesting
1104
00:46:32,959 --> 00:46:39,089
Walter Benjamin and the impact of
1105
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:41,459
commodification on the ritual context of
1106
00:46:39,089 --> 00:46:43,199
African art which I think may pertain to
1107
00:46:41,459 --> 00:46:46,019
her question because there's a kind of
1108
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:48,179
paradox in how commodified art gets
1109
00:46:46,019 --> 00:46:50,939
refet a sized in ways that to some
1110
00:46:48,179 --> 00:46:55,410
extent support many means position and
1111
00:46:50,939 --> 00:46:58,019
in other respects defy it because what's
1112
00:46:55,410 --> 00:47:00,719
you know can be created is is new aura
1113
00:46:58,019 --> 00:47:03,059
even and then it raises the issue with
1114
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,670
promise just that you mentioned it's
1115
00:47:03,059 --> 00:47:07,679
it's it's it's reproduced he reproduces
1116
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:08,759
the art he has a lot of it he makes a
1117
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:11,699
lot of carvings but it's not
1118
00:47:08,759 --> 00:47:14,039
mechanically reproduced it is it's
1119
00:47:11,699 --> 00:47:16,499
carved it's artistically but it also
1120
00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:19,819
comes from a wellspring of his faith of
1121
00:47:16,499 --> 00:47:23,789
course so it's a very fascinating
1122
00:47:19,819 --> 00:47:26,729
problem for Benjamin's argument which i
1123
00:47:23,789 --> 00:47:29,069
think is from what I just gathered from
1124
00:47:26,729 --> 00:47:31,979
your filtering and I think the question
1125
00:47:29,069 --> 00:47:36,449
is worth coming back to it even days
1126
00:47:31,979 --> 00:47:38,459
from now but anyway yeah I mean the idea
1127
00:47:36,449 --> 00:47:40,229
of crystallization in the best thing
1128
00:47:38,459 --> 00:47:42,719
that's when I said at the end you know
1129
00:47:40,229 --> 00:47:45,179
I'm not I don't know what people you
1130
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,769
know collects in Park Avenue whether
1131
00:47:45,179 --> 00:47:48,539
they using their objects as a fetish
1132
00:47:46,769 --> 00:47:50,279
précisément objects in the traditional
1133
00:47:48,539 --> 00:47:51,509
anthropological sense you know it is
1134
00:47:50,279 --> 00:47:53,880
better choice than the kind of Western
1135
00:47:51,509 --> 00:47:55,529
art sense you know you know this idea it
1136
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,029
becomes a fetish and that's it this is
1137
00:47:55,529 --> 00:48:00,809
the thing about the duality the Jamis
1138
00:47:57,029 --> 00:48:02,219
thing exactly the same thing is really
1139
00:48:00,809 --> 00:48:05,069
connected to because a lot of these
1140
00:48:02,219 --> 00:48:07,549
fetish objects quote-unquote were
1141
00:48:05,069 --> 00:48:10,140
products of Atlantic and European
1142
00:48:07,549 --> 00:48:13,410
encounters that during the urges of the
1143
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:15,749
slave trade which is partly by Europeans
1144
00:48:13,410 --> 00:48:17,579
became so obsessed with cities so
1145
00:48:15,749 --> 00:48:19,049
freakin fetishes but that's another
1146
00:48:17,579 --> 00:48:24,660
that's another discussion
1147
00:48:19,049 --> 00:48:26,489
go ahead so interesting um Anna gurkha
1148
00:48:24,660 --> 00:48:27,900
an ego huh
1149
00:48:26,489 --> 00:48:29,759
you will dr. Mitchell showed very
1150
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:31,109
amazing mass now because do they have
1151
00:48:29,759 --> 00:48:32,759
any younger apprentices who are learning
1152
00:48:31,109 --> 00:48:33,989
their traditions if so what
1153
00:48:32,759 --> 00:48:35,789
relationships they have to both
1154
00:48:33,989 --> 00:48:36,600
traditional and new creations
1155
00:48:35,789 --> 00:48:38,670
listy
1156
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:41,430
like it would be a very vital piece of
1157
00:48:38,670 --> 00:48:45,020
the heritage if it exists so promise
1158
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:46,860
says he has a lot of problems retaining
1159
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:48,390
apprentices and a lot of people don't
1160
00:48:46,860 --> 00:48:51,000
necessarily want to do it they don't see
1161
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:52,530
like a huge market for it and as I said
1162
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,730
Christianity is also this thing that it
1163
00:48:52,530 --> 00:48:55,860
precludes you know it makes people feel
1164
00:48:53,730 --> 00:48:59,130
as if they don't want to participate in
1165
00:48:55,860 --> 00:49:01,020
that now if all that would go out the
1166
00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:03,720
window if it seemed that people could
1167
00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:05,100
make you know all those considerations
1168
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,600
would be thrown out the window in
1169
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:11,340
Nigeria if you know it seems that
1170
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:13,080
include make money so so my thing is
1171
00:49:11,340 --> 00:49:14,580
that I want to make an intervention I do
1172
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,860
what I said I'm not sure about the
1173
00:49:14,580 --> 00:49:19,050
workshop setup but I do want to make it
1174
00:49:16,860 --> 00:49:21,120
easier for that you know to support
1175
00:49:19,050 --> 00:49:23,190
apprentices and to support that moment
1176
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,170
in to support the ability for them to
1177
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:27,000
you know to dive into this and they can
1178
00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:28,380
still be educated and you know still
1179
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,670
feel you know feed themselves to their
1180
00:49:28,380 --> 00:49:35,040
families so that there does need to be
1181
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:36,750
some support for you know for
1182
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,670
apprentices that doesn't exist right now
1183
00:49:36,750 --> 00:49:41,040
and I worry about what will happen -
1184
00:49:38,670 --> 00:49:42,570
when Cronus goes it's really there's not
1185
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:47,460
that many carbons we think there's about
1186
00:49:42,570 --> 00:49:49,290
eight left in a gurney and that's a bad
1187
00:49:47,460 --> 00:49:50,700
number I think that might be an okay
1188
00:49:49,290 --> 00:49:52,410
number I mean they're probably too many
1189
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:54,240
artists in the West I mean how many
1190
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:56,430
artists are there so everyone can have a
1191
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:57,690
career it's really hard so I'm not
1192
00:49:56,430 --> 00:49:59,930
saying it has to be like millions and
1193
00:49:57,690 --> 00:50:02,370
millions of Carver's but you know then I
1194
00:49:59,930 --> 00:50:04,350
just feel like it should it should be
1195
00:50:02,370 --> 00:50:06,840
respected and not eroded mission didn't
1196
00:50:04,350 --> 00:50:09,270
have to fight in that way so um and is
1197
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,150
there any hope I'm sorry I've lost the
1198
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:14,730
quick something the question about um
1199
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:17,460
the newer forms and older forms I mean
1200
00:50:14,730 --> 00:50:20,790
that's a we go to answers I think I
1201
00:50:17,460 --> 00:50:22,260
forgot that bit and if say what
1202
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:26,420
relationship do they have to both
1203
00:50:22,260 --> 00:50:28,860
traditional and new creation I mean
1204
00:50:26,420 --> 00:50:29,750
traditional and new that's you know
1205
00:50:28,860 --> 00:50:32,760
we're operating in a different
1206
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:34,670
ontological framework what is new what
1207
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,290
of tradition that moves differently
1208
00:50:34,670 --> 00:50:39,540
having said that I am interested in
1209
00:50:37,290 --> 00:50:41,430
pushing you know getting people to think
1210
00:50:39,540 --> 00:50:44,100
a little bit differently this is really
1211
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:45,870
difficult territory because you know at
1212
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:47,700
the same time I respect what's happening
1213
00:50:45,870 --> 00:50:49,380
but the only way you know why I was in
1214
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:50,100
token I'm very interested in stretching
1215
00:50:49,380 --> 00:50:51,630
what
1216
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:53,100
dentists you might be even in the
1217
00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:54,270
village you know that's that isn't I
1218
00:50:53,100 --> 00:50:55,890
don't want there to be like oh let's
1219
00:50:54,270 --> 00:50:58,290
experiment but it's only like you know
1220
00:50:55,890 --> 00:51:00,060
Western artists or - poor artists or
1221
00:50:58,290 --> 00:51:01,380
city artists that do the experimenting
1222
00:51:00,060 --> 00:51:04,710
I'm like what would it be like about you
1223
00:51:01,380 --> 00:51:06,840
know we experimented in the village like
1224
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:07,500
village experimentation what would that
1225
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,190
look like
1226
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:13,110
well exact oh that's interesting to me
1227
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:17,430
but it's like it requires I try to do as
1228
00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:19,760
a promise it's difficult it's not
1229
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:19,760
straightforward
1230
00:51:21,050 --> 00:51:26,340
crazy tall horn and he thought about it
1231
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:29,820
he thought about it but there's lots of
1232
00:51:26,340 --> 00:51:31,710
things - yeah so this is all really
1233
00:51:29,820 --> 00:51:34,410
interesting territory that I'm hoping to
1234
00:51:31,710 --> 00:51:35,700
like to think through but it's not this
1235
00:51:34,410 --> 00:51:36,960
thing that's easy it's not
1236
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:38,850
straightforward it's not just that only
1237
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,530
I set up a workshop and let's like
1238
00:51:38,850 --> 00:51:42,180
create a new industry no way
1239
00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:43,140
that's not man is not my interest I
1240
00:51:42,180 --> 00:51:45,360
don't want to go through it that way
1241
00:51:43,140 --> 00:51:51,000
that's a lot more careful a lot more
1242
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:52,410
considered okay Robin pointer I have
1243
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,360
been communicating with a young sculptor
1244
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:56,940
in Nigeria who works in traditional
1245
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,560
carved sculpture had he can't 70 years
1246
00:51:56,940 --> 00:52:00,660
ago he'd have been considered a master
1247
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,890
is there any hope that he and the artist
1248
00:52:00,660 --> 00:52:04,650
addressed in the film might find
1249
00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:06,900
clientele in order to make a living I
1250
00:52:04,650 --> 00:52:08,490
really really hope so I think that me
1251
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:10,590
having this conversation about this work
1252
00:52:08,490 --> 00:52:12,150
might open it up a bit more you know I
1253
00:52:10,590 --> 00:52:14,340
think the conversation has been too
1254
00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:15,930
closed in a sense you know and that's
1255
00:52:14,340 --> 00:52:19,410
the function of having it in these kinds
1256
00:52:15,930 --> 00:52:21,060
of spaces and you know I just that's
1257
00:52:19,410 --> 00:52:23,010
what I was talking about the idea that
1258
00:52:21,060 --> 00:52:24,330
these argument is displaying these
1259
00:52:23,010 --> 00:52:27,030
objects in these particular places not
1260
00:52:24,330 --> 00:52:29,540
and they don't perform as cultural
1261
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:32,190
capsule builders for Africans right and
1262
00:52:29,540 --> 00:52:33,900
that's the problem if it's just about
1263
00:52:32,190 --> 00:52:36,450
the European storytelling and it's in
1264
00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:38,250
this kind of like framed in this site
1265
00:52:36,450 --> 00:52:40,980
which is historically freighted in a
1266
00:52:38,250 --> 00:52:42,420
particular way then that doesn't allow a
1267
00:52:40,980 --> 00:52:44,010
lot of interest it doesn't see there's
1268
00:52:42,420 --> 00:52:45,990
been there's not the suggestion that
1269
00:52:44,010 --> 00:52:47,490
there's motility and suddenly exciting
1270
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:50,760
to be looked for when you're in Africa
1271
00:52:47,490 --> 00:52:53,280
not really so so that's why that
1272
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:57,330
conversation has to change and I think
1273
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,800
this talk and this you know lecture film
1274
00:52:57,330 --> 00:53:01,050
is all a part of it and other people
1275
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,660
making work around and writing around it
1276
00:53:01,050 --> 00:53:04,090
hopefully will bring more interest about
1277
00:53:03,660 --> 00:53:05,020
and I
1278
00:53:04,090 --> 00:53:06,340
yeah and I do think it's really
1279
00:53:05,020 --> 00:53:07,810
interesting but how do you live seventy
1280
00:53:06,340 --> 00:53:09,430
years ago he would have been considered
1281
00:53:07,810 --> 00:53:11,770
masculine today's like nothing and
1282
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:16,410
that's outrageous absolutely outrageous
1283
00:53:11,770 --> 00:53:18,520
to me outrageous so yeah I do feel like
1284
00:53:16,410 --> 00:53:20,080
we have to look at that again
1285
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,630
my sister Andy something very
1286
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,730
interesting about was it in March 20th
1287
00:53:22,630 --> 00:53:28,600
what did it the thing I sent you and it
1288
00:53:24,730 --> 00:53:31,480
was a yeah Mexico just repatriated a
1289
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,890
rare Europe sure to Nigeria but experts
1290
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,320
say it might actually be a cheap
1291
00:53:32,890 --> 00:53:36,700
knockoff so these are the this is the
1292
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,920
thing that we have to start to tear
1293
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:42,060
apart and question and worry the
1294
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:44,830
foundations of those ideas like you know
1295
00:53:42,060 --> 00:53:46,630
why it's a fake or not a fake or not
1296
00:53:44,830 --> 00:53:47,740
valuable valuable you know these are the
1297
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:49,960
things that we have to start to think
1298
00:53:47,740 --> 00:53:52,060
about and once you do that yes you do
1299
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,380
liberate more Carver's to become artists
1300
00:53:52,060 --> 00:53:54,940
and they can make a living and they can
1301
00:53:53,380 --> 00:53:58,870
inspire and they can create more
1302
00:53:54,940 --> 00:54:02,110
conversations so so yeah that is my hope
1303
00:53:58,870 --> 00:54:04,150
you know that we do find more clientele
1304
00:54:02,110 --> 00:54:05,800
and actually I have to say when I last
1305
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:08,410
year even when I was showing all of the
1306
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,940
pictures of them promises raw works and
1307
00:54:08,410 --> 00:54:12,190
I'm enjoying Shahrukh showing them raw
1308
00:54:09,940 --> 00:54:13,570
before they've been smoked you know some
1309
00:54:12,190 --> 00:54:14,890
people were like I love it raw that's
1310
00:54:13,570 --> 00:54:16,570
you know I'm really interested in it
1311
00:54:14,890 --> 00:54:20,350
just looking like that without any paint
1312
00:54:16,570 --> 00:54:21,790
without it being smoked etc so I think
1313
00:54:20,350 --> 00:54:23,430
it's entirely I do think it's entirely
1314
00:54:21,790 --> 00:54:26,890
possible
1315
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:28,810
Judith Carney brilliant films you know
1316
00:54:26,890 --> 00:54:30,700
they're moving thank you
1317
00:54:28,810 --> 00:54:32,140
you mentioned mommy water but I don't
1318
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:34,900
recall seeing a sculpture of her in your
1319
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:36,220
film she was I wonder about its
1320
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:37,900
connection of art to environment
1321
00:54:36,220 --> 00:54:39,880
specifically to mangrove environments
1322
00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:42,160
the diurnal AB and flow of water through
1323
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,540
them the movement astrid that's what
1324
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,920
people see America's and whether you
1325
00:54:43,540 --> 00:54:46,300
think this also relates to important
1326
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,080
point that these objects might have a
1327
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:50,320
job to do
1328
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:52,680
great question okay and so there was
1329
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:55,540
many water she's the one with the snake
1330
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:58,840
so if you see like a yellow woman with
1331
00:54:55,540 --> 00:55:03,280
like like long hair on any of the masks
1332
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:06,580
with the snake that's many water and one
1333
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:08,920
of the pictures there where was it it
1334
00:55:06,580 --> 00:55:13,150
was a bit where I talked about how I
1335
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:15,850
want to plant and grow seeds in a gurney
1336
00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:17,710
land and anyway there's actually a man
1337
00:55:15,850 --> 00:55:19,060
water priestess there and
1338
00:55:17,710 --> 00:55:20,830
the mask there was also the home of
1339
00:55:19,060 --> 00:55:23,400
snakes so she's everywhere in this film
1340
00:55:20,830 --> 00:55:27,430
gia they're everywhere wind whistling
1341
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:29,200
and yeah I said she's very it's very
1342
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:30,670
interesting so I wonder about its
1343
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,810
connection of art to environments and
1344
00:55:30,670 --> 00:55:33,910
that's this is the thing this is what
1345
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:35,770
you know the thing that are you I think
1346
00:55:33,910 --> 00:55:38,290
this kind of art making does connect
1347
00:55:35,770 --> 00:55:41,140
environmentalism and that's what I feel
1348
00:55:38,290 --> 00:55:43,119
like it should be opportunity to have
1349
00:55:41,140 --> 00:55:44,710
its discussion in Nigeria about our
1350
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:48,010
relationship to our environment and the
1351
00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:52,570
way that a animism before Christianity
1352
00:55:48,010 --> 00:55:54,339
kind of articulated and prescribed our
1353
00:55:52,570 --> 00:55:55,810
relationship with the environment so I
1354
00:55:54,339 --> 00:55:57,280
remember seeing this Christian book
1355
00:55:55,810 --> 00:55:59,710
saying that if your child is very
1356
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,000
interested in forests or trees this is a
1357
00:55:59,710 --> 00:56:03,220
real problem this means that they've
1358
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,750
been like possessed by spirits so it's
1359
00:56:03,220 --> 00:56:06,250
just like okay so operation shared
1360
00:56:04,750 --> 00:56:09,930
environment and this is I couldn't you
1361
00:56:06,250 --> 00:56:12,160
know a Christian sort of a pamphlet and
1362
00:56:09,930 --> 00:56:16,869
so it makes you sort of wonder about
1363
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:18,490
okay so and also this like interest in a
1364
00:56:16,869 --> 00:56:19,570
lot of people don't want to go rains in
1365
00:56:18,490 --> 00:56:20,970
Nigeria they didn't necessarily like
1366
00:56:19,570 --> 00:56:23,770
figurines in the house they don't want
1367
00:56:20,970 --> 00:56:26,320
objects or figures of people they don't
1368
00:56:23,770 --> 00:56:27,490
want that in the house and I'm not
1369
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,780
judging them to be honest with you
1370
00:56:27,490 --> 00:56:31,089
because you know some of this stuff has
1371
00:56:28,780 --> 00:56:32,170
an energy so I get it so but they don't
1372
00:56:31,089 --> 00:56:33,339
necessarily want that in the house of
1373
00:56:32,170 --> 00:56:36,280
this kind of aren't making seen as a
1374
00:56:33,339 --> 00:56:37,750
threat but for me the problem is is that
1375
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,040
it encompasses so much for our
1376
00:56:37,750 --> 00:56:41,380
relationship with the environment so we
1377
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,730
need to use to have a conversation about
1378
00:56:41,380 --> 00:56:45,849
this and use it to have this
1379
00:56:42,730 --> 00:56:47,800
conversation and yes many water does she
1380
00:56:45,849 --> 00:56:50,710
I mean running water so I mean if you
1381
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,359
noticed but his shrine is the most
1382
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:55,060
interesting thing ever is that there's
1383
00:56:52,359 --> 00:56:57,160
there's like so much work and the image
1384
00:56:55,060 --> 00:56:59,170
of his shrine which had had like a coma
1385
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,700
force and you had all these drink
1386
00:56:59,170 --> 00:57:04,810
bottles and then a picture of someone
1387
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:05,980
who looks Indonesian so and it's what's
1388
00:57:04,810 --> 00:57:08,859
interesting is that you know the idea of
1389
00:57:05,980 --> 00:57:11,470
man water is that you know she's kind of
1390
00:57:08,859 --> 00:57:12,730
also partly inspired by the figure of
1391
00:57:11,470 --> 00:57:13,869
the woman that would be at the front of
1392
00:57:12,730 --> 00:57:15,640
the ship so I think probably the
1393
00:57:13,869 --> 00:57:17,140
Portuguese ships that would have come
1394
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:21,339
around so they'd see this like beautiful
1395
00:57:17,140 --> 00:57:24,580
woman at the head of the ship and so I
1396
00:57:21,339 --> 00:57:28,290
was at the bow at the very front and so
1397
00:57:24,580 --> 00:57:29,460
the energy isn't actually necessarily
1398
00:57:28,290 --> 00:57:31,680
African
1399
00:57:29,460 --> 00:57:34,440
however issues syncretized would kind of
1400
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:37,050
python goddesses there as well it's like
1401
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:39,060
a singles it's a single just them both
1402
00:57:37,050 --> 00:57:41,310
in that particular area of nigeria so
1403
00:57:39,060 --> 00:57:43,320
you know there is a connection between
1404
00:57:41,310 --> 00:57:45,690
the two so yeah she is the goddess of
1405
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,950
and it's weird because it's not you know
1406
00:57:45,690 --> 00:57:48,780
in Europe and I know you have all
1407
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:51,270
shoulders of sweet water and not the sea
1408
00:57:48,780 --> 00:57:52,890
cousin the sea is your mantra but you
1409
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:54,930
know with us it's like okay we have
1410
00:57:52,890 --> 00:57:57,030
rivers and within this man water
1411
00:57:54,930 --> 00:57:59,849
figurine came also from from the high
1412
00:57:57,030 --> 00:58:02,880
seas and from an from Asia probably from
1413
00:57:59,849 --> 00:58:05,369
India actually so it's like a fusion of
1414
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,920
it and it's not like Oshun and Yemaya
1415
00:58:05,369 --> 00:58:09,690
effusion abortion Yemanja it's like the
1416
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,760
river the sweet water as well as the
1417
00:58:09,690 --> 00:58:13,940
high seas kind of fused together and it
1418
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:16,680
is about the kind of python mangrove
1419
00:58:13,940 --> 00:58:19,140
cults mixed with this international club
1420
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,580
isn't internationalism baked in to our
1421
00:58:19,140 --> 00:58:22,530
spiritual heritage and i think that's
1422
00:58:20,580 --> 00:58:24,420
very interesting but yes it connects to
1423
00:58:22,530 --> 00:58:25,619
the land that connects the waters in it
1424
00:58:24,420 --> 00:58:27,210
you know all of those things are
1425
00:58:25,619 --> 00:58:29,190
connected and so I do think that we need
1426
00:58:27,210 --> 00:58:31,050
to use this as an opportunity to open
1427
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:32,369
things up and the fear that's there this
1428
00:58:31,050 --> 00:58:34,320
is a very real fear and I get it but we
1429
00:58:32,369 --> 00:58:36,270
need to start to open this conversation
1430
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,890
up and start to think about our
1431
00:58:36,270 --> 00:58:39,930
relationships the environment and how if
1432
00:58:37,890 --> 00:58:41,970
you want to take it out of that if you
1433
00:58:39,930 --> 00:58:43,710
want to surgically remove it from this
1434
00:58:41,970 --> 00:58:46,680
religious way of thinking but allow it
1435
00:58:43,710 --> 00:58:48,990
to live within Christianity safely then
1436
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,430
you know let's let's let's look at that
1437
00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:53,040
because it's just a real shame that
1438
00:58:50,430 --> 00:58:56,190
interest in the natural world in that
1439
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:58,200
way is seen as like problematic and yeah
1440
00:58:56,190 --> 00:58:59,490
so that's what I want this work to be
1441
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,260
doing this is the conversation we should
1442
00:58:59,490 --> 00:59:03,000
be having I don't want it to go back
1443
00:59:01,260 --> 00:59:04,560
into a sort of traditional conversation
1444
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,930
about oh this is what it has been used
1445
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,930
for traditionally no let's drag it out
1446
00:59:06,930 --> 00:59:11,070
even from where it's been used
1447
00:59:08,930 --> 00:59:13,320
traditionally in Nigeria and within
1448
00:59:11,070 --> 00:59:15,240
Nigeria use it to have expansive
1449
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:19,560
conversations and think about things and
1450
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:22,710
beat back a superstition and beat back
1451
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:24,150
kind of like taboo beat it or back and
1452
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:25,830
let come on let's us have this
1453
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:26,490
discussion what are we actually afraid
1454
00:59:25,830 --> 00:59:28,290
of here
1455
00:59:26,490 --> 00:59:30,540
what are these powers were thinking what
1456
00:59:28,290 --> 00:59:32,550
is going on you know we have to
1457
00:59:30,540 --> 00:59:34,589
challenge ourselves and use this work to
1458
00:59:32,550 --> 00:59:36,810
do that and I think it's I think it's
1459
00:59:34,589 --> 00:59:39,839
right for that but can I weigh in for a
1460
00:59:36,810 --> 00:59:42,480
second here first of all a shout out to
1461
00:59:39,839 --> 00:59:45,300
Henry drool who's probably know
1462
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:48,510
was more about mami wata from a you know
1463
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:51,570
in the scholarly academy then and and
1464
00:59:48,510 --> 00:59:53,700
elsewhere then many and I do believe
1465
00:59:51,570 --> 00:59:56,190
that among this courses for that iconic
1466
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:57,480
image is was a photograph it was either
1467
00:59:56,190 --> 01:00:00,359
late nineteenth century or early
1468
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,650
twentieth taken place in a London Fair
1469
01:00:00,359 --> 01:00:04,100
and I'm probably getting this slightly
1470
01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:07,020
wrong but it was a vision snake charmer
1471
01:00:04,100 --> 01:00:09,660
so I think the actual provenance of one
1472
01:00:07,020 --> 01:00:12,330
of those iconic images is is a Fijian
1473
01:00:09,660 --> 01:00:14,790
getting photographed in London or in
1474
01:00:12,330 --> 01:00:16,350
some European context anyway sorry I'm
1475
01:00:14,790 --> 01:00:17,970
forgetting the details but you'll sleep
1476
01:00:16,350 --> 01:00:22,340
but it is mixed with the Pythian cult
1477
01:00:17,970 --> 01:00:24,570
know exactly and I think these are the
1478
01:00:22,340 --> 01:00:26,720
exactly the the Jana's faced
1479
01:00:24,570 --> 01:00:29,850
conjunctures that we're talking about
1480
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:32,790
but the tag I want to pull out and
1481
01:00:29,850 --> 01:00:34,320
Judy's question is do you think the in
1482
01:00:32,790 --> 01:00:37,800
this day and age and I think it relates
1483
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:40,170
to the it would have to be a kind of you
1484
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,359
know the Kristin the hardcore
1485
01:00:40,170 --> 01:00:43,950
evangelicals would have to come down a
1486
01:00:42,359 --> 01:00:46,830
little bit about this but is there
1487
01:00:43,950 --> 01:00:49,109
potential to deep redeploy things like
1488
01:00:46,830 --> 01:00:51,869
Python called tsunami Walter in the
1489
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:53,760
service of ecological reform in this
1490
01:00:51,869 --> 01:00:54,930
very endangered area that Judith Claire
1491
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,450
and he's worked on which are these
1492
01:00:54,930 --> 01:01:00,119
mangrove swamps throughout West Africa
1493
01:00:57,450 --> 01:01:02,040
and elsewhere not just a bony but
1494
01:01:00,119 --> 01:01:05,220
obviously the Niger Delta is is packed
1495
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:07,560
it's the kind of paradigmatic place
1496
01:01:05,220 --> 01:01:11,430
so I was that a question yeah in other
1497
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:16,980
words do you see potentiality for social
1498
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:19,680
activism deploying rituals or ritual
1499
01:01:16,980 --> 01:01:23,490
resources of the of the mami wata and
1500
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:25,440
other like the python this is called in
1501
01:01:23,490 --> 01:01:37,859
today in order to actually restore
1502
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:39,990
mangrove no growth is open up the
1503
01:01:37,859 --> 01:01:41,190
conversation around it I don't
1504
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:43,680
necessarily have the idea of how to
1505
01:01:41,190 --> 01:01:44,790
transcend what is happening but I know
1506
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,790
that we're not going to get there by
1507
01:01:44,790 --> 01:01:49,650
only allowing like NGOs and journalists
1508
01:01:47,790 --> 01:01:51,330
a particular idea in mind and have them
1509
01:01:49,650 --> 01:01:53,040
do the storytelling for the region so
1510
01:01:51,330 --> 01:01:54,480
what I'm trying to do is just let open
1511
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,580
things up and tell people actually
1512
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,530
there's so much more here to attract a
1513
01:01:56,580 --> 01:02:00,210
different kind of spirit a different
1514
01:01:58,530 --> 01:02:03,240
kind of intellect a different kind of
1515
01:02:00,210 --> 01:02:04,890
potentiality to the space or to activate
1516
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:08,460
that internally that's what that's all
1517
01:02:04,890 --> 01:02:09,869
I'm trying to do lots of people might
1518
01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:11,130
have little bits of ideas that might
1519
01:02:09,869 --> 01:02:12,359
come together to do something
1520
01:02:11,130 --> 01:02:14,640
interesting I just don't get that
1521
01:02:12,359 --> 01:02:16,680
perspective so and I just also think we
1522
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,540
should just you know I love it when the
1523
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,770
idea comes through me and just like I
1524
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:21,750
just wait for it because it's always
1525
01:02:19,770 --> 01:02:23,910
much much better when I wait so I don't
1526
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:26,040
know I don't but all I know is that if
1527
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:28,890
we just like open up the storytelling
1528
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,780
and open up the portals around this kind
1529
01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:33,180
of art practice and I'm not suggesting
1530
01:02:30,780 --> 01:02:34,710
anyone has to become like animus in that
1531
01:02:33,180 --> 01:02:35,970
way that's not that's what I'm not I am
1532
01:02:34,710 --> 01:02:38,160
NOT that and I'm not interested in
1533
01:02:35,970 --> 01:02:39,930
involving myself too much that however I
1534
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,060
can still have respect for someone who
1535
01:02:39,930 --> 01:02:43,619
does conduct their life in that way and
1536
01:02:42,060 --> 01:02:45,180
I have full respect for that I'm just
1537
01:02:43,619 --> 01:02:47,609
not quite about myself I'm not
1538
01:02:45,180 --> 01:02:48,890
threatened by it so yeah yeah so
1539
01:02:47,609 --> 01:02:50,970
absolutely I just want to bring
1540
01:02:48,890 --> 01:02:53,780
different energies and different ideas
1541
01:02:50,970 --> 01:02:55,650
and different engines and different
1542
01:02:53,780 --> 01:02:58,920
motivations for that space not just
1543
01:02:55,650 --> 01:03:00,390
about oh let's talk about this problem
1544
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,710
or this problem of this program just
1545
01:03:00,390 --> 01:03:03,450
like okay we need to talk about
1546
01:03:01,710 --> 01:03:05,310
solutions and what else is actually
1547
01:03:03,450 --> 01:03:08,490
there to get us out of this you know
1548
01:03:05,310 --> 01:03:11,220
just like consistently you know
1549
01:03:08,490 --> 01:03:12,869
consistently just feeding certain
1550
01:03:11,220 --> 01:03:16,920
stories doesn't actually get us anywhere
1551
01:03:12,869 --> 01:03:20,240
and so yeah so let's kind of you know
1552
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,240
let's let move the story along
1553
01:03:20,510 --> 01:03:24,240
I'm sorry I'm really confused always do
1554
01:03:23,250 --> 01:03:27,960
you want to pick a question I'm just
1555
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:32,059
like confused really pouring in and
1556
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:35,089
thanks so many of you my goodness oh
1557
01:03:32,059 --> 01:03:38,130
this is a lovely question - zero liqui
1558
01:03:35,089 --> 01:03:39,809
nigerian american evo teenager had a get
1559
01:03:38,130 --> 01:03:42,089
involved in curating documenting my own
1560
01:03:39,809 --> 01:03:44,700
homelands art and culture how you do is
1561
01:03:42,089 --> 01:03:46,170
that you just go you just go when you
1562
01:03:44,700 --> 01:03:47,640
just do it you don't ask permission you
1563
01:03:46,170 --> 01:03:49,170
don't wait for someone to say you're
1564
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:51,000
allowed to you just go and you just do
1565
01:03:49,170 --> 01:03:52,950
it and you'll make mistakes and your
1566
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,270
email it's really good to do something
1567
01:03:52,950 --> 01:03:56,400
and then you can figure out how what's
1568
01:03:54,270 --> 01:03:59,040
wrong and then just build and you build
1569
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:01,079
on it and that's the way to do it you
1570
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,790
just just you just do it i never waited
1571
01:04:01,079 --> 01:04:04,109
for anyone I didn't know when I arrived
1572
01:04:02,790 --> 01:04:05,760
and I didn't know what the hell I was
1573
01:04:04,109 --> 01:04:08,220
gonna see I had no idea I didn't come
1574
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:11,190
with any specific idea in mind I just
1575
01:04:08,220 --> 01:04:13,290
sort of landed and but okay what happens
1576
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:16,109
now and then but honestly because I
1577
01:04:13,290 --> 01:04:18,089
literally open myself up and I'm and I'm
1578
01:04:16,109 --> 01:04:19,260
also I'm hard worker and I trust myself
1579
01:04:18,089 --> 01:04:20,819
I knew what had to come up with
1580
01:04:19,260 --> 01:04:22,619
something it all came through the
1581
01:04:20,819 --> 01:04:23,849
answers came through and can I just say
1582
01:04:22,619 --> 01:04:25,740
that like Nigeria is one of the most
1583
01:04:23,849 --> 01:04:27,270
amazing places to make art and to make
1584
01:04:25,740 --> 01:04:30,150
work and to curate it's the most
1585
01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:32,549
fantastic place so if you are able to
1586
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:34,950
and I would you know when it's safe when
1587
01:04:32,549 --> 01:04:36,750
we can travel then I think absolutely go
1588
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:38,280
back and start worrying the masks where
1589
01:04:36,750 --> 01:04:42,510
you're from you know evil has such
1590
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:44,579
amazing amazing stories amazing visual
1591
01:04:42,510 --> 01:04:46,559
histories amazing philosophies you know
1592
01:04:44,579 --> 01:04:48,990
and you know I always think that these
1593
01:04:46,559 --> 01:04:51,420
are the stories that like the black
1594
01:04:48,990 --> 01:04:53,160
world across the new world across
1595
01:04:51,420 --> 01:04:54,720
everywhere that's what we need to hear
1596
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,099
you know I'm not interested in more
1597
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,410
stories about racism I want to hear
1598
01:04:56,099 --> 01:05:00,150
about our philosophies but in all these
1599
01:04:58,410 --> 01:05:01,410
different like villages and cities and
1600
01:05:00,150 --> 01:05:03,210
these ideas that come through because
1601
01:05:01,410 --> 01:05:05,670
that's what will furnish our identities
1602
01:05:03,210 --> 01:05:08,130
and give us a stronger footing I don't
1603
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:09,750
want my density built in racism I don't
1604
01:05:08,130 --> 01:05:12,059
care about racism that doesn't interest
1605
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:14,040
me I'm interested in particular ideas
1606
01:05:12,059 --> 01:05:16,079
that exists and we had a whole continent
1607
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:18,210
of these ideas and I want to hear them
1608
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:20,190
so yeah we need you to go back to
1609
01:05:18,210 --> 01:05:22,319
Nigeria and start filtering out and
1610
01:05:20,190 --> 01:05:24,089
teasing out stories and and also being
1611
01:05:22,319 --> 01:05:25,559
irreverent with them you know bring out
1612
01:05:24,089 --> 01:05:27,270
the stories but also don't you don't
1613
01:05:25,559 --> 01:05:29,160
have to submit to doing things the way
1614
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:30,990
that certain people you can you are a
1615
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,710
Nigerian and this is your culture you
1616
01:05:30,990 --> 01:05:34,810
can do with it what you want so
1617
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:37,900
yeah absolutely please though when you
1618
01:05:34,810 --> 01:05:40,599
can go back find information find ideas
1619
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:42,910
set up an Instagram page you know get
1620
01:05:40,599 --> 01:05:44,589
people excited by what you find you know
1621
01:05:42,910 --> 01:05:45,339
set up a show somewhere it can be
1622
01:05:44,589 --> 01:05:47,410
anywhere
1623
01:05:45,339 --> 01:05:50,859
the lovely Lake Las Biennale they did a
1624
01:05:47,410 --> 01:05:52,180
beautiful show in like an old railway
1625
01:05:50,859 --> 01:05:54,430
station at Lagos
1626
01:05:52,180 --> 01:05:56,440
you know sights is so powerful you don't
1627
01:05:54,430 --> 01:05:58,750
need a White King space necessary in the
1628
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:01,270
clean safe space but you know taking
1629
01:05:58,750 --> 01:06:02,950
over top places documenting it properly
1630
01:06:01,270 --> 01:06:04,510
sharing that with the world this is
1631
01:06:02,950 --> 01:06:06,670
beautiful everyone not just like me what
1632
01:06:04,510 --> 01:06:08,619
everyone can use this information and
1633
01:06:06,670 --> 01:06:10,930
these this is the kind of storytelling
1634
01:06:08,619 --> 01:06:14,230
that we need so yeah absolutely please
1635
01:06:10,930 --> 01:06:16,450
go and you know and and don't wait and
1636
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:17,740
don't apologize and give yourself
1637
01:06:16,450 --> 01:06:21,880
permission you don't need anyone elses
1638
01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:25,150
promotion to do this depend so here's a
1639
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:28,330
question from Marla burns Thank You Xena
1640
01:06:25,150 --> 01:06:30,160
and Andrew with regard to getting deeper
1641
01:06:28,330 --> 01:06:33,520
into the meanings of artworks
1642
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:35,170
he'll back these underlying stories are
1643
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,330
there any particular people who can tell
1644
01:06:35,170 --> 01:06:39,910
these stories and what is your role in
1645
01:06:37,330 --> 01:06:44,170
these conversations as an artist or a
1646
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:45,720
curator mmm very good very practical
1647
01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:49,690
questions so the thing with this is that
1648
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:54,040
it's about spending time you have to
1649
01:06:49,690 --> 01:06:58,140
spend time yes to sublimate you know you
1650
01:06:54,040 --> 01:07:01,089
can get an answer one day but then you
1651
01:06:58,140 --> 01:07:02,589
go back to the Oscars different the
1652
01:07:01,089 --> 01:07:04,720
other day because they're giving you
1653
01:07:02,589 --> 01:07:07,480
truth in in in lines you know industry
1654
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:11,500
is like three dimensional four
1655
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:13,150
dimensional five dimensional nine
1656
01:07:11,500 --> 01:07:14,740
dimensional you know it's like multi
1657
01:07:13,150 --> 01:07:18,010
dimensions so you have to go and you
1658
01:07:14,740 --> 01:07:20,170
have to sublimate and and also I think
1659
01:07:18,010 --> 01:07:23,109
they're doing I think also if you go as
1660
01:07:20,170 --> 01:07:25,119
an anthropologist or curator there is
1661
01:07:23,109 --> 01:07:26,619
this desire to get what we like the
1662
01:07:25,119 --> 01:07:28,390
truth is in a particular kind of store
1663
01:07:26,619 --> 01:07:30,430
and I think that should actually that's
1664
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:32,349
part of the conversation absolutely but
1665
01:07:30,430 --> 01:07:34,619
if you open yourself and something else
1666
01:07:32,349 --> 01:07:36,640
comes in and you have an inspiration to
1667
01:07:34,619 --> 01:07:38,530
to bring something else to the
1668
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:41,410
conversation allow it to happen because
1669
01:07:38,530 --> 01:07:42,970
it's there for a reason you know and if
1670
01:07:41,410 --> 01:07:44,560
something is worrying you if something
1671
01:07:42,970 --> 01:07:45,970
keeps coming to your mind it would be
1672
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,420
wise this has nothing to do with this
1673
01:07:45,970 --> 01:07:49,430
thing apparent
1674
01:07:47,420 --> 01:07:50,690
allow it to and follow it because I feel
1675
01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:52,610
like it's always if you use your
1676
01:07:50,690 --> 01:07:54,710
intuition properly but there's a way of
1677
01:07:52,610 --> 01:07:56,450
connecting whatever random thought is
1678
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:58,430
coming to a head to connect with what
1679
01:07:56,450 --> 01:08:01,190
you are looking at there's a reason it's
1680
01:07:58,430 --> 01:08:02,870
coming into your head so I think that
1681
01:08:01,190 --> 01:08:05,420
you know curators need to change you
1682
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:06,410
know need to like I know you have to be
1683
01:08:05,420 --> 01:08:07,520
practical you have to think about
1684
01:08:06,410 --> 01:08:09,440
budgets you have to think about
1685
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:11,390
practicalities you've got it there's a
1686
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,770
huge job and it's a difficult job and so
1687
01:08:11,390 --> 01:08:14,660
I'm not saying that it's easy it isn't
1688
01:08:12,770 --> 01:08:16,430
but I think that if you can carve out
1689
01:08:14,660 --> 01:08:18,230
time for a moment where you can open
1690
01:08:16,430 --> 01:08:20,270
yourself a little very particular way I
1691
01:08:18,230 --> 01:08:22,220
think that is should be a part of the
1692
01:08:20,270 --> 01:08:23,510
process now I don't think it can be I
1693
01:08:22,220 --> 01:08:25,609
don't think it can be different anymore
1694
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:27,050
we're moving into a different age you
1695
01:08:25,609 --> 01:08:29,960
know and if I don't if you like read
1696
01:08:27,050 --> 01:08:31,970
online and there's a lot more certainly
1697
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:34,040
nothing around the world is like more
1698
01:08:31,970 --> 01:08:35,990
talk about and during Coppa during this
1699
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:38,120
time even when we think about politics
1700
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:40,220
everyone's talking in terms of like new
1701
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,240
energies and spirits and ideas you know
1702
01:08:40,220 --> 01:08:43,370
this is like everything's kind of
1703
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,359
converging and we have to represent that
1704
01:08:43,370 --> 01:08:45,920
and that has to be part of the
1705
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:48,530
conversation it cannot just be dry
1706
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:50,780
representation you know that kind of we
1707
01:08:48,530 --> 01:08:53,000
need a different kind of conversation so
1708
01:08:50,780 --> 01:08:55,010
and also I would say introducing say
1709
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,510
authors you know people who can do
1710
01:08:55,010 --> 01:08:58,670
different kind of writing around the
1711
01:08:56,510 --> 01:08:59,990
work as well you know that should be
1712
01:08:58,670 --> 01:09:03,140
part of it I'm always interested in
1713
01:08:59,990 --> 01:09:04,940
seeing you know you know art art written
1714
01:09:03,140 --> 01:09:06,800
through the lens of an author has a
1715
01:09:04,940 --> 01:09:09,200
beautiful way with words I think that's
1716
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,940
also a part of it too that's another way
1717
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:13,160
that we considered like shift the
1718
01:09:10,940 --> 01:09:15,100
storytelling around it so yeah I have an
1719
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:17,510
appreciation for the you know
1720
01:09:15,100 --> 01:09:19,850
anthropological approach absolutely and
1721
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:21,230
getting the idea through absolutely I
1722
01:09:19,850 --> 01:09:23,600
totally agree with that and as an artist
1723
01:09:21,230 --> 01:09:25,970
I definitely want you know the curator
1724
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,130
to listen to what I've had to say and to
1725
01:09:25,970 --> 01:09:29,780
represent what I'm but then I'm also
1726
01:09:28,130 --> 01:09:31,040
excited by when they can if they can
1727
01:09:29,780 --> 01:09:32,420
take it to the next level and see
1728
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,490
something that I didn't see and I love
1729
01:09:32,420 --> 01:09:36,859
that but I don't want it to have to be
1730
01:09:34,490 --> 01:09:39,350
obedient to you know what people expect
1731
01:09:36,859 --> 01:09:41,839
an encyclopedic Museum to show honestly
1732
01:09:39,350 --> 01:09:43,820
fuck that that's that that's that time
1733
01:09:41,839 --> 01:09:46,550
is over you know we're not gonna get
1734
01:09:43,820 --> 01:09:48,290
anywhere with this anyway I remember
1735
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:49,910
when I was in the British Museum and we
1736
01:09:48,290 --> 01:09:51,859
went and I saw the Issei bronzes and it
1737
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:53,600
was saying let's talk about how it
1738
01:09:51,859 --> 01:09:55,400
changed the way we think about Africans
1739
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:57,350
and how we were like advance and
1740
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,700
civilize in the past or whatever I was
1741
01:09:57,350 --> 01:10:00,310
just thinking how this has no
1742
01:09:58,700 --> 01:10:02,620
relationship to like
1743
01:10:00,310 --> 01:10:05,050
you know young black boys out in in
1744
01:10:02,620 --> 01:10:06,580
London and being seen a certain way you
1745
01:10:05,050 --> 01:10:08,130
know then behave in a certain way not
1746
01:10:06,580 --> 01:10:10,780
feeling the part of the fabric of
1747
01:10:08,130 --> 01:10:12,340
British society in some way I'm how do
1748
01:10:10,780 --> 01:10:14,800
you connect that because that connection
1749
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:16,870
was not happening right just you know it
1750
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,940
being in the British Museum used someone
1751
01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:21,190
writing that it doesn't that connections
1752
01:10:18,940 --> 01:10:23,680
are made I'm thinking why do you have
1753
01:10:21,190 --> 01:10:26,230
this work if it's if you know if it
1754
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:29,560
isn't liberating if it isn't liberating
1755
01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:31,270
people how you know so we have to work
1756
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,160
harder as curators we have to work
1757
01:10:31,270 --> 01:10:35,560
harder and make make those connections
1758
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,150
you know and do it more expansively it's
1759
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,550
not just about like oh let's get some
1760
01:10:37,150 --> 01:10:41,230
schools it's just like no it's yes to go
1761
01:10:39,550 --> 01:10:42,340
deeper things a bit hard about how we're
1762
01:10:41,230 --> 01:10:44,200
going to see that's how we're gonna make
1763
01:10:42,340 --> 01:10:47,440
this connections how we're gonna expand
1764
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:49,900
the storytelling so and not do it in a
1765
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:51,640
way that's like a little bit passion
1766
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:53,110
rising it's just like but I think it's
1767
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:55,690
hard I don't think it's easy I think
1768
01:10:53,110 --> 01:10:57,100
it's really hard and and I think it
1769
01:10:55,690 --> 01:10:58,660
takes everyone coming together and
1770
01:10:57,100 --> 01:11:01,330
thinking and working and getting it
1771
01:10:58,660 --> 01:11:02,650
wrong maybe but this is the next phase I
1772
01:11:01,330 --> 01:11:04,720
think that's potentially really exciting
1773
01:11:02,650 --> 01:11:07,090
because what it will do is it activates
1774
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:08,620
people's kind of interest in the in the
1775
01:11:07,090 --> 01:11:10,210
collections you know I know that you
1776
01:11:08,620 --> 01:11:11,410
know there's a collection in Brooklyn
1777
01:11:10,210 --> 01:11:12,400
Museum that's just sitting there without
1778
01:11:11,410 --> 01:11:14,440
a curator oh really
1779
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,270
as far as I know you know they had a
1780
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:18,370
wonderful curator who had to left for
1781
01:11:16,270 --> 01:11:19,990
you know variety of reasons but you know
1782
01:11:18,370 --> 01:11:21,310
there's that all that work there but
1783
01:11:19,990 --> 01:11:22,570
what are you gonna do with it what are
1784
01:11:21,310 --> 01:11:23,920
we gonna how are we going to tell
1785
01:11:22,570 --> 01:11:26,920
stories with that work how are we going
1786
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:29,320
to connect that to you know you know
1787
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:32,050
race politics or spiritual whatever it
1788
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:33,610
is in that's going on in New York you
1789
01:11:32,050 --> 01:11:38,380
know we have to think about how we're
1790
01:11:33,610 --> 01:11:40,390
going to use that so so yeah I think
1791
01:11:38,380 --> 01:11:42,970
that you know not just thinking of it as
1792
01:11:40,390 --> 01:11:44,350
an anthropological exercise and a
1793
01:11:42,970 --> 01:11:47,080
strictly a very sort of narrow or
1794
01:11:44,350 --> 01:11:48,610
one-dimensional pedagogics er size and
1795
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,440
it's hard but and I think that and I
1796
01:11:48,610 --> 01:11:53,050
think I could be more specific if I have
1797
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:54,970
like okay gala Dame asks what are you
1798
01:11:53,050 --> 01:11:56,740
gonna do with gala day I have an idea
1799
01:11:54,970 --> 01:11:59,680
about Kennedy by the way and Chuck way
1800
01:11:56,740 --> 01:12:02,130
but you know I think it's very specific
1801
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,130
very specific
1802
01:12:03,269 --> 01:12:05,940
I hope that answer your questions and
1803
01:12:04,349 --> 01:12:08,999
I'm sorry for my what's the world my
1804
01:12:05,940 --> 01:12:12,269
slurring no that's a great answer really
1805
01:12:08,999 --> 01:12:16,079
just what we need to hear hmm
1806
01:12:12,269 --> 01:12:17,730
Laurel who Burt the power of this
1807
01:12:16,079 --> 01:12:21,059
performance Oh hasn't even thank you
1808
01:12:17,730 --> 01:12:22,320
thank you gosh from the restitution of
1809
01:12:21,059 --> 01:12:23,880
African objects debate to the
1810
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,469
consequences of slaughter I'm wondering
1811
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:27,749
if you can speak more to the agency of
1812
01:12:25,469 --> 01:12:30,230
masters vehicles performing the Mars
1813
01:12:27,749 --> 01:12:32,070
from the relationships in art I'm
1814
01:12:30,230 --> 01:12:34,019
environmentalism have I talked a little
1815
01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:36,949
bit about that enough like I might ever
1816
01:12:34,019 --> 01:12:36,949
tender to that a bit
1817
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:41,320
[Music]
1818
01:12:39,489 --> 01:12:43,960
as a black American this is addy
1819
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:45,100
Roberson Robeson's and I'm really sorry
1820
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,900
if I'm getting everyone's names wrong
1821
01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:48,850
I'm just like not with this Jonesy sorry
1822
01:12:46,900 --> 01:12:50,980
as a black American I'm curious and how
1823
01:12:48,850 --> 01:12:52,870
at the end you juxtapose the image of
1824
01:12:50,980 --> 01:12:54,280
black Americans along with the masks how
1825
01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:55,690
do you think the stories objects from
1826
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:58,810
the Niger Delta connected spiritual
1827
01:12:55,690 --> 01:13:00,820
practices and the - we're here yes so I
1828
01:12:58,810 --> 01:13:05,320
think you might be referring to the
1829
01:13:00,820 --> 01:13:09,130
livid organisms section yeah I was
1830
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:11,530
thinking a lot about the relationship
1831
01:13:09,130 --> 01:13:13,690
between this kind of art making and the
1832
01:13:11,530 --> 01:13:16,150
way it's kind of like held in these
1833
01:13:13,690 --> 01:13:19,960
encyclopedias iums and that relationship
1834
01:13:16,150 --> 01:13:21,280
to black life and that connection that's
1835
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:24,190
what I was just talking about about the
1836
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:26,590
EFA bronzes and you know black boys in
1837
01:13:24,190 --> 01:13:29,110
London being seen as a threat or
1838
01:13:26,590 --> 01:13:30,340
behaving a threatening whatever it is so
1839
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:31,900
that connections interesting to me and
1840
01:13:30,340 --> 01:13:33,670
also this idea that they're held there
1841
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:36,400
and some sort of prison as well so yeah
1842
01:13:33,670 --> 01:13:38,620
the idea of mugshots in and like kind of
1843
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:40,480
like super imposing them together was
1844
01:13:38,620 --> 01:13:42,610
interesting to me and also I didn't mean
1845
01:13:40,480 --> 01:13:44,080
to just use African Americans it wasn't
1846
01:13:42,610 --> 01:13:45,400
I just you know I was looking for
1847
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,560
pictures of mug shots and there were
1848
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,960
some and they happen to match some of
1849
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:52,570
the pictures that I found but there's
1850
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:56,550
one guy tricky he's British so he was
1851
01:13:52,570 --> 01:13:58,270
there as well and Deborah shores and a
1852
01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:59,800
mobile-phone Jamaican I'm not quite sure
1853
01:13:58,270 --> 01:14:02,560
but there are other people I could think
1854
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,940
of who you know and also myself I was
1855
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,340
there a lot I think there's a lot of
1856
01:14:03,940 --> 01:14:12,969
juxtapose with me in the mask all the
1857
01:14:06,340 --> 01:14:15,910
time so so so yeah why do I Jack suppose
1858
01:14:12,969 --> 01:14:17,920
I just feel as if ultimately we are
1859
01:14:15,910 --> 01:14:19,180
those masks you know it's not separate
1860
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:20,350
from us you can try and separate it from
1861
01:14:19,180 --> 01:14:21,880
us but actually you make it about
1862
01:14:20,350 --> 01:14:24,730
ourselves that work is about ourselves
1863
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,110
it's a shadow self or it's like a self
1864
01:14:24,730 --> 01:14:30,070
from the different realm you know this
1865
01:14:26,110 --> 01:14:31,540
is this is us you know and like I didn't
1866
01:14:30,070 --> 01:14:33,070
want to make that explicit I just think
1867
01:14:31,540 --> 01:14:33,670
it's really barren the work is just like
1868
01:14:33,070 --> 01:14:36,070
certain people
1869
01:14:33,670 --> 01:14:37,540
I have a friend depot who also looks
1870
01:14:36,070 --> 01:14:39,580
like a girl a dame ask you to say you're
1871
01:14:37,540 --> 01:14:40,930
a bird beautiful you're a bear base and
1872
01:14:39,580 --> 01:14:43,900
it reminds me of a guillotine mask so
1873
01:14:40,930 --> 01:14:46,000
you know that is us you know and so you
1874
01:14:43,900 --> 01:14:48,700
should like think this is precious and
1875
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,860
it's not precious because you know he'll
1876
01:14:48,700 --> 01:14:53,740
only Rubenstein owns it it's precious
1877
01:14:50,860 --> 01:14:55,800
because we're precious
1878
01:14:53,740 --> 01:14:55,800
you
1879
01:14:58,229 --> 01:15:03,280
okay dude equity maybe I find the
1880
01:15:01,929 --> 01:15:06,130
economy of desire in distance with
1881
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:07,749
respect and curator curating an African
1882
01:15:06,130 --> 01:15:11,679
art quite deep and would you would
1883
01:15:07,749 --> 01:15:13,539
appreciate further elaboration yes so
1884
01:15:11,679 --> 01:15:16,150
you know master symbols of the Altera
1885
01:15:13,539 --> 01:15:18,039
tea in a way and people have collections
1886
01:15:16,150 --> 01:15:21,340
in order to furnish their own identities
1887
01:15:18,039 --> 01:15:22,959
and to signal can you be so there's a
1888
01:15:21,340 --> 01:15:25,510
really great essay about I think it's
1889
01:15:22,959 --> 01:15:28,059
about Jewish Americans in the 1920s and
1890
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:30,309
the way they were using African mass in
1891
01:15:28,059 --> 01:15:32,439
order to bolster their own identity as
1892
01:15:30,309 --> 01:15:34,150
you know all of New York and all of
1893
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:35,380
America but different at the same time
1894
01:15:34,150 --> 01:15:38,139
so there's a very interesting
1895
01:15:35,380 --> 01:15:40,959
relationship there so I'll try and find
1896
01:15:38,139 --> 01:15:43,090
the essay at some point people use
1897
01:15:40,959 --> 01:15:44,439
collections in all sorts of ways you
1898
01:15:43,090 --> 01:15:45,909
know that says something about
1899
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,559
themselves or advertising something
1900
01:15:45,909 --> 01:15:50,019
about themselves but I do think that
1901
01:15:47,559 --> 01:15:51,760
also this idea of distance that you know
1902
01:15:50,019 --> 01:15:54,849
that is what was important to certain
1903
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:59,829
kinds of you know Western Europeans you
1904
01:15:54,849 --> 01:16:03,999
know you know it has to be that phrase
1905
01:15:59,829 --> 01:16:07,030
that chap that said Sally price that he
1906
01:16:03,999 --> 01:16:09,039
loves not to know the name of the artist
1907
01:16:07,030 --> 01:16:11,680
so as it wouldn't be primitive art it
1908
01:16:09,039 --> 01:16:13,999
has to be almost like an alien made it
1909
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:15,349
[Music]
1910
01:16:13,999 --> 01:16:17,360
which is really interesting cuz I'm
1911
01:16:15,349 --> 01:16:19,190
thinking well maybe an alien did my kit
1912
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:20,809
I like I like to think that but that
1913
01:16:19,190 --> 01:16:23,239
complicates things I'm like but it was
1914
01:16:20,809 --> 01:16:24,710
something interesting about but yeah
1915
01:16:23,239 --> 01:16:26,150
that's the economy but that's what they
1916
01:16:24,710 --> 01:16:27,710
wanted it to be Asia so these people are
1917
01:16:26,150 --> 01:16:29,389
so different from myself us it from us
1918
01:16:27,710 --> 01:16:31,070
you know and that's kind of what and
1919
01:16:29,389 --> 01:16:32,630
it's beautiful work - there is that -
1920
01:16:31,070 --> 01:16:37,130
but then the conversation about their
1921
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:39,789
difference yeah that that becomes the
1922
01:16:37,130 --> 01:16:43,000
metric I believe
1923
01:16:39,789 --> 01:16:44,530
if it's to kind of like I just wonder
1924
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,170
how interested they be in the if Abrams
1925
01:16:44,530 --> 01:16:49,090
is there's something to kind of like
1926
01:16:46,170 --> 01:16:51,579
like classical and Roman about that work
1927
01:16:49,090 --> 01:16:55,000
you know but the ones that are a little
1928
01:16:51,579 --> 01:16:56,650
bit more you know what's a Picasso the
1929
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:59,170
dam lasts or whatever it is I think that
1930
01:16:56,650 --> 01:17:00,429
that is maybe the the difference that
1931
01:16:59,170 --> 01:17:02,739
they're much more interested in I don't
1932
01:17:00,429 --> 01:17:07,559
know but I just feel as if you know it's
1933
01:17:02,739 --> 01:17:07,559
um it's a form of possessing us
1934
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:15,420
by asking Peggy McInerney but asking for
1935
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:16,980
more storytelling about African mass you
1936
01:17:15,420 --> 01:17:19,140
argue there is a need to remove all
1937
01:17:16,980 --> 01:17:20,820
scaffolding whether battered European
1938
01:17:19,140 --> 01:17:23,010
collectors technology colonialism or
1939
01:17:20,820 --> 01:17:25,980
even the use of masked in masquerades in
1940
01:17:23,010 --> 01:17:27,930
contemporary Africa and instead directly
1941
01:17:25,980 --> 01:17:29,850
experience the actual energy of African
1942
01:17:27,930 --> 01:17:33,660
lasts I'm really scared to where this
1943
01:17:29,850 --> 01:17:35,070
question is going so in some way there
1944
01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:37,560
are many meanings is found in our
1945
01:17:35,070 --> 01:17:39,510
visceral experiences of their energy is
1946
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,800
that right it seems related to one of
1947
01:17:39,510 --> 01:17:41,940
the most fascinating things he said in
1948
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,550
the film to me that perhaps master
1949
01:17:41,940 --> 01:17:45,900
European collections chose to be stolen
1950
01:17:44,550 --> 01:17:50,340
and taken aboard let's still awaiting
1951
01:17:45,900 --> 01:17:52,020
their real work yeah that's where I live
1952
01:17:50,340 --> 01:17:55,830
that's where I live with some work you
1953
01:17:52,020 --> 01:17:57,720
know that's and I think Andrew accused
1954
01:17:55,830 --> 01:18:02,130
me of being a modernist and I was
1955
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:04,140
thinking maybe I am interested in like a
1956
01:18:02,130 --> 01:18:05,940
kind of spiritual so my thing is culture
1957
01:18:04,140 --> 01:18:07,770
I'm actually interested in culture turns
1958
01:18:05,940 --> 01:18:09,660
out you know i imaged a great will going
1959
01:18:07,770 --> 01:18:11,820
lower okay there's a surface culture but
1960
01:18:09,660 --> 01:18:13,440
that's just a performance you know a
1961
01:18:11,820 --> 01:18:15,890
consequence or something that's going on
1962
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:17,940
deeper there that's them it's the deeper
1963
01:18:15,890 --> 01:18:19,890
conversation that I'm interested in so
1964
01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:22,440
you know culture is just like a
1965
01:18:19,890 --> 01:18:23,670
meditative tool to go deeper and I could
1966
01:18:22,440 --> 01:18:26,490
be anywhere in the world and I could be
1967
01:18:23,670 --> 01:18:30,450
anyone and I would use those same tools
1968
01:18:26,490 --> 01:18:33,660
to get to this subcutaneous layer that
1969
01:18:30,450 --> 01:18:35,100
exists and that's everywhere that's
1970
01:18:33,660 --> 01:18:37,200
global and I think it's a singular
1971
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:40,200
entity I personally believe that and
1972
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:42,030
cultures just like the consequence to
1973
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:43,740
get to that they're not you know and
1974
01:18:42,030 --> 01:18:45,570
they are signals their signals asking us
1975
01:18:43,740 --> 01:18:48,000
to like go to that place okay I just
1976
01:18:45,570 --> 01:18:50,610
tell you that place is one of them hmm
1977
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:52,560
so fertile so interesting my father
1978
01:18:50,610 --> 01:18:54,930
always said that you know and my brother
1979
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:57,260
told me both deceased now but if and the
1980
01:18:54,930 --> 01:18:57,260
different
1981
01:19:10,010 --> 01:19:14,539
so that if you go your gifts are
1982
01:19:12,949 --> 01:19:16,880
actually in a gunny land you know you
1983
01:19:14,539 --> 01:19:19,099
don't you you'll be really surprised but
1984
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:21,050
you know if you go back there what will
1985
01:19:19,099 --> 01:19:23,269
come out of it and that really is what
1986
01:19:21,050 --> 01:19:25,219
happened to me you know and it's the
1987
01:19:23,269 --> 01:19:27,860
thing that you don't know you don't know
1988
01:19:25,219 --> 01:19:29,239
it's not just this it's not the surface
1989
01:19:27,860 --> 01:19:32,239
question it's this other thing that
1990
01:19:29,239 --> 01:19:34,340
happens to you that surface magic that's
1991
01:19:32,239 --> 01:19:36,710
that that's all surface that's not it's
1992
01:19:34,340 --> 01:19:38,780
not even what it is the thing that's
1993
01:19:36,710 --> 01:19:40,219
actually see you is not the thing that
1994
01:19:38,780 --> 01:19:43,250
you think it is it's something else and
1995
01:19:40,219 --> 01:19:45,079
it's beautiful you know but you're not
1996
01:19:43,250 --> 01:19:47,090
you're not gonna get it if you go there
1997
01:19:45,079 --> 01:19:48,409
you know with prescribed ideas you're
1998
01:19:47,090 --> 01:19:50,989
not vulnerable to something you have to
1999
01:19:48,409 --> 01:19:53,480
go and listen the practice of listening
2000
01:19:50,989 --> 01:19:56,090
the practice of waiting the practice of
2001
01:19:53,480 --> 01:19:57,650
respecting people that's where that
2002
01:19:56,090 --> 01:20:00,400
comes from and it's this thing where
2003
01:19:57,650 --> 01:20:02,780
like and I can't tell its essence and
2004
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,429
it's actually way more expansive than
2005
01:20:02,780 --> 01:20:06,289
you realize I spent a lot of years
2006
01:20:04,429 --> 01:20:08,630
thinking oh my god I'm just I keep
2007
01:20:06,289 --> 01:20:10,519
making this Africa mask work but it's a
2008
01:20:08,630 --> 01:20:12,110
to reductive is it tea reductive as a
2009
01:20:10,519 --> 01:20:13,610
practice is it too reductive and it's
2010
01:20:12,110 --> 01:20:14,659
just like and that's what I can see if
2011
01:20:13,610 --> 01:20:17,360
I'm just making the world cuz that's
2012
01:20:14,659 --> 01:20:18,860
what's coming through but if all this
2013
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,570
other stuff started to come true you
2014
01:20:18,860 --> 01:20:22,699
know it's just like oh my gym practice
2015
01:20:20,570 --> 01:20:24,800
which is connecting to environmentalism
2016
01:20:22,699 --> 01:20:26,539
and globalism I'm thinking about forests
2017
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,730
in new ways and suddenly it's so much
2018
01:20:26,539 --> 01:20:31,460
has come through through doing the work
2019
01:20:28,730 --> 01:20:33,650
you know and to
2020
01:20:31,460 --> 01:20:36,440
but it's a subcutaneous layer that's
2021
01:20:33,650 --> 01:20:38,150
there you know it's not it's not the
2022
01:20:36,440 --> 01:20:41,000
surface culture it's not even that so
2023
01:20:38,150 --> 01:20:43,220
yeah I think it is about a deeper energy
2024
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:45,290
and if you go there with that in mind
2025
01:20:43,220 --> 01:20:47,630
and people never go to Africa for that
2026
01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:49,910
you know they might get it like I don't
2027
01:20:47,630 --> 01:20:53,840
know Ecuador Peru and do an ayahuasca
2028
01:20:49,910 --> 01:20:56,180
ceremony for that no one goes to Africa
2029
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:58,010
boga slightly scary and like too intense
2030
01:20:56,180 --> 01:20:59,480
and you know we don't even have any of
2031
01:20:58,010 --> 01:21:02,540
those plant medicines necessary puffin
2032
01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:07,700
weed in Nigeria as far as I know I have
2033
01:21:02,540 --> 01:21:09,410
asked I just feel like there is this
2034
01:21:07,700 --> 01:21:10,940
thing that's there and everyone keeps
2035
01:21:09,410 --> 01:21:11,690
thinking that I'm just looking at Moscow
2036
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:13,670
mm-hmm
2037
01:21:11,690 --> 01:21:18,080
it's not even that is where masquerade
2038
01:21:13,670 --> 01:21:27,680
comes from you know it's like deeper the
2039
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:31,480
masquerade friends even when they're
2040
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:34,340
virtually connected I wonder if I could
2041
01:21:31,480 --> 01:21:36,620
go back and look at a kind of
2042
01:21:34,340 --> 01:21:38,810
interesting question that occurred to me
2043
01:21:36,620 --> 01:21:39,470
as well that my friend Dan de la day has
2044
01:21:38,810 --> 01:21:42,470
posed
2045
01:21:39,470 --> 01:21:44,210
hi Xena this is Dendi I am currently a
2046
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:45,380
visiting scholar at the Coleman Center
2047
01:21:44,210 --> 01:21:47,480
and also from Nigeria
2048
01:21:45,380 --> 01:21:48,680
I found your film absolutely fascinating
2049
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:50,330
I'm just now being introduced to your
2050
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:52,280
work so forgive me if you've already
2051
01:21:50,330 --> 01:21:53,870
covered this before the question has to
2052
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:56,060
do with the title of your organization
2053
01:21:53,870 --> 01:21:57,590
boys quarters as a Nigerian growing up
2054
01:21:56,060 --> 01:21:59,720
myself in the immediate post colonial
2055
01:21:57,590 --> 01:22:01,610
period in Nigeria that name brings forth
2056
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:03,560
the vivid powerful connotation of a life
2057
01:22:01,610 --> 01:22:05,000
that I lived and a social structure and
2058
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,010
is one of the most pervasive legacies of
2059
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,630
colonialism in Nigeria in terms of
2060
01:22:07,010 --> 01:22:09,950
social and class structure I was
2061
01:22:08,630 --> 01:22:11,390
wondering if you can elaborate on this
2062
01:22:09,950 --> 01:22:14,980
for those of our audience and friends
2063
01:22:11,390 --> 01:22:14,980
that may not be as familiar with this
2064
01:22:15,210 --> 01:22:19,300
sure so actually my organization is
2065
01:22:17,739 --> 01:22:20,770
called the mangrove Arts Foundation and
2066
01:22:19,300 --> 01:22:22,720
one of the projects underneath it is
2067
01:22:20,770 --> 01:22:25,390
always forces projects place which is a
2068
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:28,030
gallery so boys quarters I set that up
2069
01:22:25,390 --> 01:22:29,710
in 2014 and it was really because I was
2070
01:22:28,030 --> 01:22:31,780
originally gonna set it up in our boys
2071
01:22:29,710 --> 01:22:33,310
quarters at home and then my family's
2072
01:22:31,780 --> 01:22:34,900
like no you're not gonna do it there
2073
01:22:33,310 --> 01:22:37,950
because you don't want people entering
2074
01:22:34,900 --> 01:22:40,840
the compound I was like mmm so I would
2075
01:22:37,950 --> 01:22:42,550
just do it and so that's why I did it
2076
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:46,660
then I might but like maintain the name
2077
01:22:42,550 --> 01:22:48,489
because I like this idea of like you
2078
01:22:46,660 --> 01:22:49,780
know looking to space like the boys
2079
01:22:48,489 --> 01:22:52,630
borders which is supposed to be the
2080
01:22:49,780 --> 01:22:55,030
lower rung of society and understanding
2081
01:22:52,630 --> 01:22:57,400
that our gifts come from there too you
2082
01:22:55,030 --> 01:22:59,890
know so and we can find inspiration from
2083
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:01,150
that space and you know in late you know
2084
01:22:59,890 --> 01:23:02,739
it's not always the thing about wanting
2085
01:23:01,150 --> 01:23:05,770
to be the big man or living on banana
2086
01:23:02,739 --> 01:23:07,330
island or you know having it's not just
2087
01:23:05,770 --> 01:23:09,010
about that I'm saying that and I've
2088
01:23:07,330 --> 01:23:11,620
always experienced it that way the
2089
01:23:09,010 --> 01:23:12,880
artwork then I like to make is for I
2090
01:23:11,620 --> 01:23:14,170
like to go to the village to make art
2091
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:16,360
when I'm in leg or so I was going to I
2092
01:23:14,170 --> 01:23:18,040
was filming a motion and in Lagos Island
2093
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:20,020
and that's where that's where I want to
2094
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:21,940
make my work and I love it
2095
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:24,670
you know I'm bushi - I don't mind you
2096
01:23:21,940 --> 01:23:27,250
know I don't mind but that's not where
2097
01:23:24,670 --> 01:23:30,760
for me the artwork comes from so the
2098
01:23:27,250 --> 01:23:32,470
idea of boys quarters and the servants
2099
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,790
quarters that's what they call it so in
2100
01:23:32,470 --> 01:23:35,680
it actually the terrible name and the
2101
01:23:33,790 --> 01:23:37,330
you know it's a colonial name and it's
2102
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:38,110
like calling a grown man or whoever
2103
01:23:37,330 --> 01:23:41,410
lives there boy
2104
01:23:38,110 --> 01:23:43,600
which is you know has you know resonance
2105
01:23:41,410 --> 01:23:45,489
in America as well so the boys porters
2106
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,610
but you know people still call it that
2107
01:23:45,489 --> 01:23:51,610
in Nigeria and they don't like worry the
2108
01:23:47,610 --> 01:23:53,050
connotations so that's what the boys
2109
01:23:51,610 --> 01:23:54,820
borders is but I kept there because
2110
01:23:53,050 --> 01:23:56,739
people don't expect to find inspiration
2111
01:23:54,820 --> 01:23:59,680
in the boys portals they expect to find
2112
01:23:56,739 --> 01:24:01,870
family members who poor family members
2113
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:03,520
or they expect to find servants and the
2114
01:24:01,870 --> 01:24:10,180
boys boarders all sorts of other things
2115
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:12,160
and the boys borders but they don't
2116
01:24:10,180 --> 01:24:14,530
think it's going to be like inspiration
2117
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:16,120
and transformation so I wanted the idea
2118
01:24:14,530 --> 01:24:17,710
that this place that you kind of
2119
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,970
slightly look down on it's a bit quite
2120
01:24:17,710 --> 01:24:22,800
mysterious is actually the place where
2121
01:24:18,970 --> 01:24:22,800
transformation can happen so that's why
2122
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:28,010
xena how are you holding out in turn I
2123
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:32,540
can keep going
2124
01:24:28,010 --> 01:24:34,840
right can I ask can I just ask you to
2125
01:24:32,540 --> 01:24:38,080
address another question that I just see
2126
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:50,480
Donna and I'm very grateful for the
2127
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:52,219
Global's just tell me thank you very
2128
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:54,469
much for your brilliant presentation
2129
01:24:52,219 --> 01:24:56,510
why do you connect African spirituality
2130
01:24:54,469 --> 01:24:59,750
with animism trees and mountains are not
2131
01:24:56,510 --> 01:25:01,730
spirits it's that not an imprecise
2132
01:24:59,750 --> 01:25:03,380
representation of African spirituality
2133
01:25:01,730 --> 01:25:04,910
trees rocks rivers and natural
2134
01:25:03,380 --> 01:25:07,520
formations just serve as spiritual
2135
01:25:04,910 --> 01:25:09,949
receptacles and temporary places of
2136
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:12,920
abode that spurred can inhabit how will
2137
01:25:09,949 --> 01:25:15,110
you respond to this very interesting
2138
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:17,360
I suppose my language kind of like did
2139
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:19,160
confuse that a bit you're right a tree
2140
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:21,080
is not a spirit it's true there is an
2141
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:24,050
energy within that which is that you
2142
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:26,330
know the tree spirit there's a water
2143
01:25:24,050 --> 01:25:27,860
spirit there's you know but spirit some
2144
01:25:26,330 --> 01:25:30,320
awesome habit animals but they can also
2145
01:25:27,860 --> 01:25:33,199
jump from people to people to animal -
2146
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:37,990
yeah so yeah I do I do get that and say
2147
01:25:33,199 --> 01:25:41,070
if I said but say I don't it's a bit
2148
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:43,210
trees and mountains and not spirits but
2149
01:25:41,070 --> 01:25:44,680
but this is another thing I'm Leon
2150
01:25:43,210 --> 01:25:45,940
what's a little bit interested in this
2151
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:50,340
is that okay there's a spirit inside
2152
01:25:45,940 --> 01:25:50,340
that we imagine that but then
2153
01:25:50,700 --> 01:25:54,470
I have a spirit in me but there's like
2154
01:25:54,519 --> 01:25:58,900
yeah I don't know I think because I also
2155
01:25:57,489 --> 01:26:00,280
have my own idea about African
2156
01:25:58,900 --> 01:26:02,230
spirituality so there's this idea of
2157
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:04,929
what it is but I'm also like what for
2158
01:26:02,230 --> 01:26:06,579
it's a huge continent secondly I have my
2159
01:26:04,929 --> 01:26:09,280
own ideas and I'm interested in my own
2160
01:26:06,579 --> 01:26:11,920
ideas as well and I can affect how our
2161
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:15,309
spirituality is rendered to by my own
2162
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:17,940
ideas so what is my own idea I think
2163
01:26:15,309 --> 01:26:17,940
that
2164
01:26:21,950 --> 01:26:26,090
well you know their but their temporal
2165
01:26:24,290 --> 01:26:27,590
difference you know a rock is alive on a
2166
01:26:26,090 --> 01:26:29,480
different way a tree is alive in a
2167
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:31,130
particular way you know but we just
2168
01:26:29,480 --> 01:26:33,020
don't anthropomorphize them you know I
2169
01:26:31,130 --> 01:26:34,730
think this idea of spirits as well
2170
01:26:33,020 --> 01:26:36,260
jumping from place to place is a little
2171
01:26:34,730 --> 01:26:38,600
bit of that it's the Bill of
2172
01:26:36,260 --> 01:26:40,490
anthropomorphizing in its way as well so
2173
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:41,990
I'm thinking well maybe they have their
2174
01:26:40,490 --> 01:26:43,850
own spirit in their own way that's our
2175
01:26:41,990 --> 01:26:45,900
idea of a spirit but you know what is
2176
01:26:43,850 --> 01:26:47,760
actually a true spirit
2177
01:26:45,900 --> 01:26:49,530
you know we're talking about our human
2178
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:51,060
idea of what a tree spirit is a lot of
2179
01:26:49,530 --> 01:26:53,750
trees idea of what the trees there it is
2180
01:26:51,060 --> 01:26:56,670
you know so I'm interested in you know
2181
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:57,990
worrying that idea to what is African
2182
01:26:56,670 --> 01:27:00,120
spirit you're right what is active in
2183
01:26:57,990 --> 01:27:01,770
spirituality I'm not gonna be told what
2184
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,870
it is or isn't I want to think about it
2185
01:27:01,770 --> 01:27:07,050
I want to meditate on it I want to space
2186
01:27:03,870 --> 01:27:07,650
out to it planet 8i wesker and think
2187
01:27:07,050 --> 01:27:08,880
about it
2188
01:27:07,650 --> 01:27:10,710
you know and then figure out what that
2189
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:14,160
might be and I think yeah I think there
2190
01:27:10,710 --> 01:27:17,930
is a tree's idea of what a spirit is and
2191
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,930
that our idea of what a tree spirit is
2192
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:29,090
just just think about the the Tolkien
2193
01:27:25,170 --> 01:27:33,450
trilogy and and all of the films about
2194
01:27:29,090 --> 01:27:35,630
Lord of the Rings and Treebeard and the
2195
01:27:33,450 --> 01:27:38,690
spirits the tree spirits and that
2196
01:27:35,630 --> 01:27:42,390
there's a broad range of ways of
2197
01:27:38,690 --> 01:27:49,860
documenting these notions but anyway how
2198
01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:52,830
many more questions are you up for it
2199
01:27:49,860 --> 01:27:54,720
come for it yeah I got energy I mean we
2200
01:27:52,830 --> 01:27:56,280
losing people rapidly is any way are you
2201
01:27:54,720 --> 01:27:58,440
interested because people just say if
2202
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:02,610
that's not interesting it's interesting
2203
01:27:58,440 --> 01:28:06,560
we can shut it down probably interesting
2204
01:28:02,610 --> 01:28:06,560
I just I'm worried about wearing you out
2205
01:28:09,950 --> 01:28:14,880
so it's really like an honor to have
2206
01:28:12,300 --> 01:28:16,680
questions and anyone being interested at
2207
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:19,320
all in this so I'm you know I'm honored
2208
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,790
by this so um I will try and get to as
2209
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:23,760
many questions as possible
2210
01:28:20,790 --> 01:28:25,440
oh cool trick would do BAM look like
2211
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:31,800
we're saying please continue okay cool
2212
01:28:25,440 --> 01:28:33,450
thank you I'm Lauren Tate wiser I work
2213
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:34,770
in these games and FanDuel comments
2214
01:28:33,450 --> 01:28:36,150
about the dialogue between us
2215
01:28:34,770 --> 01:28:39,780
do you want to say it cuz I can rest my
2216
01:28:36,150 --> 01:28:41,640
voice Andy I worked in museums and found
2217
01:28:39,780 --> 01:28:44,730
your comments about the dialogue between
2218
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:46,530
the site and in the art particularly of
2219
01:28:44,730 --> 01:28:47,760
interest as I've often argued for the
2220
01:28:46,530 --> 01:28:50,250
discovery of new meaning and
2221
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:52,020
democratizing implications of objects
2222
01:28:50,250 --> 01:28:54,330
presented in different physical contexts
2223
01:28:52,020 --> 01:28:56,100
in my experience however this is often
2224
01:28:54,330 --> 01:28:58,620
met with resistance from both
2225
01:28:56,100 --> 01:29:00,570
institutions and individuals people with
2226
01:28:58,620 --> 01:29:02,520
brilliant exhibition ideas frequently
2227
01:29:00,570 --> 01:29:05,520
seek out an institution to attach
2228
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:07,320
themselves to or pitch to reinforcing
2229
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:09,090
colonial authority over how objects are
2230
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,040
interpreted and displayed do you have a
2231
01:29:09,090 --> 01:29:13,949
take on why that might be and how we can
2232
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:15,780
begin to disrupt this norm
2233
01:29:13,949 --> 01:29:17,690
yeah I think people go to those
2234
01:29:15,780 --> 01:29:20,190
institutions because they need the
2235
01:29:17,690 --> 01:29:21,510
infrastructure to get it done it's like
2236
01:29:20,190 --> 01:29:23,850
really hard to put on a show you need
2237
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:25,410
the infrastructure but I think we're at
2238
01:29:23,850 --> 01:29:26,969
a really interesting moment now or we're
2239
01:29:25,410 --> 01:29:28,080
having to rethink all of this and you
2240
01:29:26,969 --> 01:29:29,880
know the art world's busy they're
2241
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:32,190
thinking how do we do this what do we
2242
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:33,480
and I think it's up to people like you
2243
01:29:32,190 --> 01:29:35,940
and those other people with brilliant
2244
01:29:33,480 --> 01:29:38,730
ideas to now - now speak up because we
2245
01:29:35,940 --> 01:29:41,429
got to go in - let what is art for you
2246
01:29:38,730 --> 01:29:43,920
know is it just a stick on walls and you
2247
01:29:41,429 --> 01:29:45,719
know and what is it really really for
2248
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,730
and let's like go into that area and
2249
01:29:45,719 --> 01:29:50,969
just and then start to restructure from
2250
01:29:47,730 --> 01:29:52,199
that space so we need to like enter into
2251
01:29:50,969 --> 01:29:54,030
that again I think this is a beautiful
2252
01:29:52,199 --> 01:29:56,070
time to be able to start to have that
2253
01:29:54,030 --> 01:29:57,900
conversation you know and I think people
2254
01:29:56,070 --> 01:29:58,830
I'm gonna write something about this and
2255
01:29:57,900 --> 01:30:00,300
if you've got those ideas you should
2256
01:29:58,830 --> 01:30:02,520
write about it - you know everyone's
2257
01:30:00,300 --> 01:30:04,230
thinking where does the artwork go from
2258
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,090
here on now I personally think that a
2259
01:30:04,230 --> 01:30:08,640
lot of its gonna stay the same but if we
2260
01:30:06,090 --> 01:30:10,440
can like you know change a little bit of
2261
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:12,719
it and just like loosen a little bit of
2262
01:30:10,440 --> 01:30:15,719
it and let air in then you know I think
2263
01:30:12,719 --> 01:30:18,810
that we have to you know this is this is
2264
01:30:15,719 --> 01:30:21,030
a moment where that can happen so yeah I
2265
01:30:18,810 --> 01:30:22,429
mean I'd be I'm really saddened but
2266
01:30:21,030 --> 01:30:26,460
they're probably people with the most
2267
01:30:22,429 --> 01:30:28,260
amazing exhibition of ideas out there
2268
01:30:26,460 --> 01:30:30,390
but they might not give themselves
2269
01:30:28,260 --> 01:30:32,550
permission to let go out into the world
2270
01:30:30,390 --> 01:30:34,320
and do it or they're not you know in the
2271
01:30:32,550 --> 01:30:36,140
right positions of power and they don't
2272
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:38,969
have the fight in them to make it happen
2273
01:30:36,140 --> 01:30:41,100
I don't know if there's some way of like
2274
01:30:38,969 --> 01:30:43,710
getting together these ideas I think
2275
01:30:41,100 --> 01:30:47,429
this the ideas are out there but just
2276
01:30:43,710 --> 01:30:50,580
certain people aren't able to put those
2277
01:30:47,429 --> 01:30:52,320
ideas for so I just think write it you
2278
01:30:50,580 --> 01:30:54,330
know just put them out into the world so
2279
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:55,860
that we can hear it and then maybe but I
2280
01:30:54,330 --> 01:30:58,320
think also at this time like within
2281
01:30:55,860 --> 01:30:59,880
music we could have we think I mean
2282
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:02,070
there's to you a lot more open air stuff
2283
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:05,340
now I'm not entering a space I'm accused
2284
01:31:02,070 --> 01:31:08,310
I'm sorry I'm very like Toby conscious
2285
01:31:05,340 --> 01:31:09,989
and so I'm you know I don't mind going
2286
01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:11,100
to open air spaces with low social
2287
01:31:09,989 --> 01:31:13,320
distancing but we're gonna have to
2288
01:31:11,100 --> 01:31:15,449
rethink all of this now so this is the
2289
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:18,300
this is this is the moment if any this
2290
01:31:15,449 --> 01:31:21,530
is the moment to start to rethink how we
2291
01:31:18,300 --> 01:31:21,530
present art and