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Good to go. Sonia.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So, hello everyone. And good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone and welcome to our fall series of talks at the Center for European and Russian studies.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): At the University of California at Los Angeles. My name is Lori heart and I'm Professor of Anthropology and global studies and director of the Center.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): We're celebrating International Education Week here at the International Institute, so I'm glad that you could join us this week.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Today I'm especially happy to welcome my friend and colleague, Maurice Gillette, professor of social anthropology and the School of Global Studies at the University of Gothenburg.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): To speak to us about her in a recent research in Sweden, Professor Gillette is an accomplished social anthropologist a filmmaker. She and I taught together at Haverford College for many years before we migrated to other universities. So I'm a longtime admirer of her

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Of her not only of her deep and creative ethnographic work but also of her ethical commitment to her subjects and their lives and challenges and her groundbreaking participatory anthropology.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): As a whole, Professor Gillette's research explores how capitalist processes effect group identities material culture and economic practices.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So among her many publications. Let me just point out a few published in 2016 China's porcelain capital. The rise fall and reinvention of ceramics in Jane Dizon

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Traces porcelain production from its origins in 1004 and Song Dynasty China to the present day concentrating on the wrenching transition to capitalism of porcelain workers and entrepreneurs.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And in the true spirit of embodied participant observation, Professor July also learn to throw and decorate pots and made a compelling film to accompany the book, I highly recommend watching

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She's the author also have between Mecca and Beijing modernization and consumption on urban Chinese Muslims from Stanford in 2000 and important study of Chinese Muslims and she on in Northwest China.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She was the editor and contributor to the 2014 edited volume new ethnographic film in China from Visual Anthropology review.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She's also written on urban neighborhoods in the Midwest and Eastern United States.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Professor Gillette works extensively with museums on exhibitions public history and educational initiatives.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And she's participated in several community engagement initiatives, including the community history and digital media project Muslim voices of Philadelphia for which she received a courage in media Award from the Council on American Islamic Relations in 2012

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Most recently, she's been working on projects in Sweden as you're here today and has recently published Sweden's burka ban policy proposals problem it is Asians and the production of Swedish has co authored with Sylvia Frisk, and part of ongoing comparative research on failing in Europe.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): The research. She's presenting today, which picks up I think on her earlier work in Missouri on Community visions of

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Of common landscapes has been carried out collaboratively with Victor vestberg who's a PhD student in environmental, social sciences at Gothenburg and working on local Fisher's PhD.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): He took his BA and MA in agronomy from the Swedish university of Agricultural Sciences and wrote his ma on astronomy in Austin scanner and has been a chef in Sweden and France.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): I'm not delighted also to introduce the art commenter Chris guilty is professor of the at UCLA with appointments in the Institute for society and genetics, the Department of Information Studies and the Department of Anthropology.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): A graduate of MIT program in science, technology and society. He's also held appointments at Harvard University and Rice University.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): His expertise and research interests span and impressive array of field. So I'll make no attempt to pigeonhole

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Is incredible imagination into a discipline. But let me say that among his skills and interests are social theory and technology, the cultural significance of information technology.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And the relationship of participation technology and the public sphere.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Is the author of the book two bits, the cultural significance of free software from Duke in 2008 and most recently just out in 20

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Of the participant from the University of Chicago Press. A study of participation as a political concept.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Or more precisely of the long term problem of individual and collective experience of representative democracy through four case studies in diverse domains of contemporary life.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): He's also written numerous articles on open source and free software, including its impact impact on education nanotechnology and the life sciences.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Open Access in the Academy on piracy, the history of software and many other as he says in advisedly diverse topics that I commend you to explore. So I'm thrilled that he joins us today to contribute to our discussion.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So with that as an introduction, let me pass the podium to Professor Maris Gillette for big food and small Fisher in Sweden fighting the system with direct marketing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Thank you so much. Wonderful. And thanks for the invitation. It's really nice to be here. It's been a while since I've given a talk to an American audience so

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): It's nice to be reunited with you all in the, in the spirit of technology and public participation. I thought I would try a minty meter.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Let's see if this works. So I'm going to do a little share screen here with a mentee meter and I want you to do is go to www.mentee.com punch in the code 6455 75 and then pick an answer to this statement I have bought food directly from a food producer, yes, no, or don't know

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): To give this couple minutes and see if some of you can figure out how to get to ww.com that must be Chris

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Good somebody at least has very good

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): More good

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Good.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Good to see a few of you. And also good to know that the kind of local food movement that we see happening here in Sweden is also

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Happening in the US as well. So some of you have bought food directly from a food producer, in a way, I guess that was kind of a dumb question, I maybe should have said.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): You know vegetables from vegetable producer or, you know, milk from a dairy farmer.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Of course, we've all bought food from people who like make food and food trucks and stuff. So that wasn't really what I meant.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): But I meant you know food from a farmer, you know, great vegetables from a farmer or be from a farm or something like that. So some of you have not everybody

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): All right, let's try my next mentee here. Who among you have bought fish from a fisher directly if you have bought fish or seafood directly from a fisher somebody has pick. Yes, otherwise know or if you don't know, pick don't know

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): No. Okay.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Right, a little bit of a different picture here of course, we have a very small sample and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I will say, you know, who knows how representative. This is for you know people in Los Angeles or in the United States or anything else, but it does. Maybe in some sense a

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): exemplify the problem in some ways that I want to talk about here with you today, which is direct marketing of fish in Sweden.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Let me just share my PowerPoint here with you all. And let's see if we can talk a little more directly about direct marketing efficient sweet and then

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I should say this project on direct marketing a fish here in Sweden from small scale coastal fishers on the west coast and the Baltic.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In Sweden is funded by the Swedish Research Council for sustainable development and it's part of a larger project that I'm doing with Victor

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): But also with my colleague, Sebastian Lincoln and MOLINA OR is Schreiber but it's been Victor and I have been working on this direct marketing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Piece. And when I want to talk to you today is about direct marketing as an example of a phenomenon that scholars call alternative food networks and I hope some of you maybe have heard about this.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Topic many social sciences. So for many, many years now have criticized the global aggregate industrial food system as as unsustainable and people talk about it in terms of

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Large scale actors pushing out small scale actors, they talk about it in terms of loss of biodiversity, people talk about

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Long transit distances. They talk about people being disconnected from their food. So there's all sorts of reasons why. And of course extermination ization of costs that the environmental costs of our food. We don't pay for them.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In the places where those costs are occurred.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And fishing, of course, commercial fishing is part of this agri industrial food system, although perhaps we don't

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Even the name Agra industrial food isn't doesn't really indicate fishing. But in fact, over the course of the 20th century commercial fishing became a part of the system as much as any other kind of food and alternative Food Network's then our

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): initiatives that are

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): An attempt to counteract this kind of industrial food system and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): People talk about alternative food networks which can include things like foraging community gardens, other kinds of urban gardening direct marketing farmers markets community supported agriculture.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): These kinds of things and they talk about them as as efforts to reconnect producers and consumers and face to face relationships.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They talk about them as as as ways to localize economic and environmental costs and gains.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They talk about them as ways to transfer knowledge and also increase people's knowledge about food, including about the production of food and also as a way to produce promote more ethical relationships between humans and between humans and nature.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And there are all sorts of examples of alternative food networks out there. I'm very sure that there are farmers markets for example in in Los Angeles.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Here where I live in Sweden. We don't actually have farmers markets, but we do have something called the record ring which are kinds of direct marketing initiatives that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Producers and consumers connect over Facebook a producer goes on Facebook and says I have 10 pounds or

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): kilos of carrots to sell and then people kind of sign up on Facebook and say, I'll take three pounds and whatever. And then they need in a designated place and they pick them up. So that's an example of an alternative Food Network right here where I live.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So there's lots and lots of examples of alternative food networks in in Europe. One example that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Has gotten some attention from anthropologists and other scholars are solidarity purchasing groups in Italy or gosh

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): As they're called lots of examples of different kinds of support short supply chains. There's different sorts of small scale producer movements. The slow food movement is is an example of alternative food networks and of course community supported agriculture.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So what about fish, fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We're not really part of the alternative Food Network seen when it began a couple decades ago. But in recent years, they're starting to be integrated into alternative Food Network's

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I can say in terms of the scholarship on fishing alternative food networks, it's pretty much all coming from North America. So lots of, lots of people writing about community support and fisheries in the United States and Canada.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That's kind of the main topic that you can find articles on if you look it up in your library.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In Europe, it appears that fish have come into alternative Food Network's a little more slowly, but there are a couple of prominent successful examples. So there's this one in France. It's AMA P possible which is new knowledge and the fishers are on you island.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): There was an initiative in the Canary Islands 10 reef and effort to make a local mark or brand.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): For locally captured fish and marketed that way. Little closer to where I am hearing your story is Thor of strength which is on the northern part of Denmark and it's a fishing village where they formed a

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): An association with fishers and also other local people in the market fish directly. And they also actually have

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Sort of a branch where they take the fish from third strand and sell it in Copenhagen in the summer. So there are some examples of fish and alternative Food Network's here in Europe.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I should say in relation to this that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Fishing alternative Food Network is is is being pushed by some

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Top level actors.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The European Commission's Director General for maritime affairs recently held a conference in Stockholm called marketing the local catch that was in 2013 and they produced a little pamphlet here where

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They tried to tell people how to do local marketing of fish and encourage people to engage in local fish marketing. Another example is this

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Publication for the Nordic Council of Ministers, where they to again are talking about local fish and direct marketing efficient ways to increase value for fishers in the food system.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So what I wanted to do what we wanted to do with this little

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Project was to look at efforts to sell fish directly here in Sweden.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And we're kind of interested in the extent to which fish in direct marketing here in Sweden can be understood as as a real alternative. Or to what extent is this an alternative to the conventional system. And we've borrowed a theoretical apparatus from some political scientists

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): schlosberg Coles and craven have come up with this framework, which is based on actually their studies of alternative food networks, but also things like sustainable fashion and Transition Towns and community.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Renewable energy initiatives and they've studied these different kinds of movements and come up with this theoretical apparatus that they call sustainable materialism.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And then, in some sense, that's a response to the kind of

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): over use of the word sustainability that everything is sustainable now and and nobody knows what the word means anymore. So they've kind of said, Okay, we're going to

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Develop this framework through this movement produce theory to to find a way to talk more meaningfully about sustainability and sustainable materialism.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In their framework then has kind of three key dimensions. The first is material circulations that a sustainable materialist initiative circulates people things

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In a different flow than the one that's characterized as instead of an industrialized systems that we live in and highly industrialized lands like Sweden or the US for that matter. The so it's circulation to things Bali bodies and knowledge outside the industrial system.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The second piece of this tripartite framework is alternative relations between humans and also between humans and nature and for

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The ease of talking about these different kinds of relations. So both

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): caring relationships between humans, but also caring relationships between humans and nature, we've borrowed the phrase, Human. Human Nature relations.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I'll, I'll just dwell on that for a minute to say that we intentionally avoided more than human or just human nature, which has become a really popular.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): field of study here in Sweden, because in the sustainable materialist theory. They're really emphasizing both the relationships between humans.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Issues of equity issues of justice, as well as sort of ethical relationships routine humans and nature. So we wanted both. So we went with this human human nature relations, which is a term that comes out of environmental justice scholarship

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And so this kind of human human nature relations are grounded in an acknowledgement of human immersion in the non human world and also an ethics of care then. And then the third piece of sustainable materialism is alternative collective formations and they talk about these

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Forms of community organization as a pre figurative politics that people are acting together collectively to embody their socio ecological aspirations in the everyday provisioning of life.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And the stress is really that this is a post individual practice that alternative sustainable materials and is bigger than just individual by COTS or boycotts it's bigger than individual votes. It's a, it's a, it's a collective action in a way

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Okay, so the question then for us was okay, is the direct marketing of fish in Sweden. An example of sustainable materials and then we thought we just use these three criteria and try to figure that out.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I just emphasize here that we looked at coastal fish or marine fish. So there is a lake fishery here. There's two very large lakes and then there's many small lakes.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And we didn't include those fishers or direct marketing and those Lake fisheries in our study, and I can, I can talk about that if if you're interested. Later, but we focused on then coastal small scale coastal fishers your after fishers

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Who do direct marketing and we combined different kinds of data we use some national level data on fish consumption.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That was collected by the EU, but also by rise, which is a Research Institute here in Sweden that studies fish consumption, among other things.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And then we did field work at five operations of direct marketing that small scale cluster officials run

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And this. This is a Corona period project. So there was less fieldwork than one might have wished.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): But we did do some long form semi structured interviews. We did a certain amount of limited in person visits and we did pretty extensive media.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Searches, which I'll talk about in a minute, and then we attended different kinds of meetings and conferences with people who were involved in these direct marketing operations.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And here's just a little more on the operations. They were purposely selected.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): This is not a very common practice here in Sweden. It is not a majority practice by any stretch and so we kind of worked with a sort of a snowballing method to find people who did this.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And we also, we wanted to have a kind of a decent spread. So we had both Baltic fishers and West Coast, which is Atlantic ocean for us fishers

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Yeah, and the youngest FISHER, THAT WE SPOKE TO was 40 the oldest was in his upper 70s, and we had people who had been doing direct marketing for two years, all the way up to

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Almost 20 years. So, and perhaps even more than 20 he couldn't really remember when he got started with the direct marketing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Okay, so, um, the first thing I want to talk about is material flows in Swedish Fish struck marketing and I want to talk about that in relation first to the national data because, in my view, the size of the flows.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Is relevant if we're trying to understand how alternative. This is what kind of an alternative. This is to the conventional system.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The bad news is that while there are three agencies in here in Sweden who look after fishers and fish. None of them track direct marketing a fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So that would be the Swedish Water Management Board, which is also fisheries, the agriculture board and the

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Food board and none of them tracks fishers who do direct marketing. So we don't have any really good data on a national level, how many fishes do this. We do know.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That direct marketing is the practice that people who land daily do. So this is not a form of marketing that people have big boats do

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): This is a daily landing a practice and we know that the size of the small scale coastal fleet here in Sweden.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I can say that, um, the evidence suggests that this is a minority practice and I'll give you some of the things that we're basing that on first is

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): If you do a search on fish and direct marketing in a in a in a newspaper base like we did Swedish newspaper database and you come up with articles.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Featuring fishers who do direct marketing. So that suggests already that this is not a very common thing. Otherwise, why is it newsworthy and then second of all related to that when you read these stories they usually talk about them as this is the last Fisher in place x or

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): This is the only Fisher in this town where there used to be 37 fishing boats and so on. So there's that's also another piece of data that we use to suggest that this is a minority practice.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Another piece of data that we use to think it's a minority practices that there's been a number of initiatives.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): With EU funding, some of them, some of them with regional funding to promote direct marketing of fish. So, this the we've seen them in scone. A and blocking it on golf land and in my alma

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And series. Ham. So that also suggests if this was a very common practice. And why do you need to be trying to persuade people to do it. And then the final piece of evidence is part of another part of this project that we're doing. We interviewed 20 fishers

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): selected based on their boat size and which coasts, they fish on and which species they fish. So it was we knew nothing about how they sold

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And all that group of 20 only two did direct marketing. So the best we can guess maybe 20% officials in Sweden do direct marketing, but we don't we don't have great numbers.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): How much fish is flowing through direct marketing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): This EU study of consumer habits really did fish and aquaculture product consumption found that 6% of Swedes by fish directly from fishers and 91% of Swedes buy fish or see food from the supermarket. So that suggest to that there's not that much fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Flowing through this direct marketing in terms of what kind of fish is this that that Swedes are eating, by the way, it is salmon hearing cod and shrimp are the most popular fish that is eaten here in Sweden.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): All right. Um, so let's talk a little bit about the flows of bodies money and fish in the five operations. The first thing I'll say is that nobody in these five made a living solely from directly marketing fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I will say to that based on our other interviews. It's actually very common for small scale fisheries to have some other income source.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So it's not particularly direct marketing. I think that is the reason for people having other income sources is just the difficulties of making a living with small scale miss that having been said, though.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They did all require some other income source. So one was a part time butcher. Another one worked as a personal care assistant

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Another guy did fisheries research and he actually made most of his income from that and so on. So, all of them had some other way of making living and just directly selling fish to customers.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In relation to that what they thought about the money.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I think very by whether the rule, the direct marketing played in

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In allowing them to be commercial fisheries and that was maybe a convoluted. Same way of saying that for three of these people of the seven fishes that we talked to

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Three of them direct marketing was a way to keep in fishing and for those people. They were pretty happy with the money they made

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): For the other people who were mostly full time commercial fishers or who made the bulk of their income for commercial fishing. They were not so satisfied with the money flowing through this system and they

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Talked about how fish prices are really set by the global agri industrial food system and that you know they couldn't make enough money from direct selling. They didn't sell enough of their catch from direct selling for it to be a really significant part of their income.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And another point that came up in the interviews, was that engaging and direct marketing causes problems with industrial buyers. So people talk it talked about how they had to unfriend their wholesaler or

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They talked about most Fisher's have delivery agreements with some kind of buyer of processor a wholesaler and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): You know, we heard stories about how so when so buyer said take your blah blah fish and show that you know where if you don't sell it all to me. I don't want any of it so it cause friction and falling out with regular conventional buyers.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Another issue with the flow of fish is that there's just not enough fish all of the fishes talked about not they're not being in a fish out there.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And this is a this is a topic that we see all the time and the media here in Sweden just declining fish populations. And then as a kind of secondary issue unhealthy fish populations in there, especially COD.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And as probably many of you are aware, there is a moratorium on cod fishing just now in the eastern Baltic, which is related to this issue. They're just not being enough fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): But that obviously then causes problems for direct marketers another issue related to material flows, was that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): People didn't know how many customers, they were going to have, and they didn't know how much fish, people were going to buy and that was enervating

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And challenging and everybody thought that, you know, if only they had some more regulars AND MORE STEADY client base and this would be a better a better thing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Another issue related to the material flows that the fishers talked about it at length is that people don't know what to do with fresh fish. They don't know how to play it. So they always have to buy it filleted they don't know how to cook it.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I mean they don't know how to handle it and they all talked about needing to instruct their customers. You know how what to do with this stuff. And that was a source of frustration and something that sort of obstructed the flows, if you like.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): A little more on the material flows, a fish more on the positive side quality fish, the fishers said, you know, our customers say we will never going to buy fish anywhere else we're only going to buy your fish because your fishes really good fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They also talked about selling fish outside of the top species. So not just cod hearing, Sam. And actually, there aren't any commercial salmon fishers in Sweden anymore because of regulations we can talk about that.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Cod hearing and shrimp, but they also showed perch pike sea bass.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Lots and lots of other things. And that was something that they

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They, they thought really separated them from conventional fish and the content in the conventional system that you don't find these things in the supermarket.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And people don't want them, but their customers wanted and they were creating some enthusiasm for these unpopular fish less waste was another thing that they talked about

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): At one of the direct marketing operations. He made people bring their own pails or

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Whatever they wanted to take the fish away in other places, they would just give it to you in a piece of paper. So there's not as much waste as you would find in the conventional system. And then, in general, the fish didn't travel as many food miles, if you like. So most of the customers.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Were within the township of the fisher where the fish official landed at Harbor. I will say though there were some examples where the fishes are selling directly to clients who were 100 kilometers in May, so direct marketing and local is not actually the same thing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Okay, talk now about human human nature relations in direct marketing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): All of the fishes talked about fishing as a lifestyle and, you know, they, I mean his beautiful things that they said about you know their sense of

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Integration in nature and the sort of pleasure of being out on the water. And it's, you know, unbeatable. I mean, we, you know, really poetic

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Things that people said, so they felt very close to nature and they really did communicate this to their clients.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): When people came to buy, but even more so through social media, Facebook sites and also

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Interviews all of the direct marketing operations had been extensively interviewed in the press. And as I said, direct marketing fish makes the news and Sweden. So they had all some of them many, many times given interviews about their operations and talked about nature.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They also in relation to this would talk about, you know, very particular details about the local ecosystems where they worked

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): These fissures and many, many of the features that we've talked to in this project feel like

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): fisheries are managed has one Fisher, put it to me like a pancake as if fish and fish ecosystems are the same everywhere.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And these Fisher's very much communicated to people like okay well here in this place, this is what the situation is. We have a really good cod here. There's no trawling here.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We don't have a big sale problem. So they really localized fish and localize nature in a way through these

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Communications that they had. So not, you know, big abstractions, like, oh, the cod in the Baltic is bad and there's not enough of it and it's thin and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Candy cod. But really, you know, much more specific and textured knowledge, I would say. And as I said, they used to lots of communication channels.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I was quite impressed that all of the even some of the very, very elderly more elderly fishers still had their Facebook pages for their direct marketing operations and and just also the willingness to

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): be interviewed by a journalist and to be featured on Swedish radio or Swedish television and they also talked about

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): How much fun. It was to talk directly with customers.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I know you don't have any relationship with with the consumer in the conventional system and that was the motivation for some of them to get involved in direct marketing is that they could actually talk to the people who would eat their fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They talked about also the way that they could influence people's fish eating partly through consuming unpopular species, but also

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): In terms of seasonality encouraging people to eat the fish that's in season and so on.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And not all of the fishers, but some of the fishers I think really had

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Us an ethos of every customer being valued.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): One of the fishers really talked to us about how important it was to him that you know everybody feel that they are special to him, you know, it didn't matter if you bought a kilo of fish or 100 kettle of fish, you know you are

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Important and I treat you with dignity and he he also on his Facebook side, you know, he's put up a Post saying, you know,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Hey, if you don't speak Swedish. And you're a recent migrant to Sweden and that's fine you know I'm still happy to sell you fish, you know, get in touch and and we'll find a way to make it work and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): This Fisher Fisher also and some of the other fishers involved in these operations to they they do a certain amount of home delivery and they're doing that, not for money, but doing that because they have customers who are old.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Who can't make it down to the harbor who are sick and now during Corona Koba 19 because they're in risk groups and they shouldn't be coming to buy fish. So there's a there was a sense certainly that the ethics and ethics of the kind of relationships with humans as well.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Okay quickly turning to collective formations.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Some of the issues they all have regulars but they weren't regular enough, you know, they didn't they all talked about how well if the weather's bad nobody shows up or, you know, yeah, they'll come in the summer, but they don't come in the winter.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So they had regulars. But they would have liked more regulars. A little more dependable buying, selling relationship.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): They did talk about influencing, as I said, fish, consumers and the public. More generally, and one of the Fisher's I don't really have time to relate it unfortunately. But I had an interesting story about eel and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): European email, as you know, as a threatened or endangered species and the issue of should you have Ilan your Christmas buffet, which is sort of a tradition here or not and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Ways that he had influenced local people around that.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Couple other things about collective formations. So there was, I guess I would say some sense of community but not networking and it was it was quite noticeable. For me, for example.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): One of the direct marketing operations told me that they had been contacted by a record ring, which is this sort of, you know,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Way to buy directly from producers in Sweden. That's fairly common here.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And that this recording and called him up and said they wanted to have fish and they and the fishes weren't interested now like oh yeah well we do our own thing. So

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): To that and, you know, more examples of a little bit of a missed opportunity that there could have been a little bit of outreach to, for example, environmental organizations or maybe developing

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Relationships with academics like me who might be interested in supporting them and not the future is not really

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Partially maybe not having the skills partially press not having the time person on having the interest to sort of build a little bit thicker.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And relationships with people and more networking, so they could have a little bit more space of support than they than they actually had

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And there were examples with a couple of the operations that they had sort of one time injections of money. But even though they didn't have to like pay interest on this money then it had to pay back

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): It was on a social level pretty much the same as a bank loan that it didn't result in any relationships. It was just, here's some money, sell some fish by

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Here's basically what I see as kind of the issues. Then when we come to thinking about is direct marketing efficient Sweden. An example of sustainable materialism.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): There's definitely some flows of bodies money and fish through these networks.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): It is a different kind of fish then flows through the conventional system.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The money stays more local the costs, stay more local the fish doesn't travel and as far in general. There's some evidence of a, of an ethos of care in these

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Relationships and I'd say the area where

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We think anyway this is at its weakest where perhaps it doesn't really live up to the sustainable materialism model is really in the collective formations that they're thin, it's not clear to us that we really

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Seeing something that's truly post individual that's really anchored in a sort of a social formation.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So here's our conclusions. Then we think circulations in the conventional system need to decrease in favor of circulations if fish in a offense. So these elephants do good things, but the volume is too small.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We do see care and these human human nature relations and care in relation to consumption and even helping people to learn how to consume fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We'd like to see a little more reciprocity in the human human relations and other words the officials had lots of stories about them advising the customers but we didn't hear any stories about oh my customer came in and was telling you about this and that really changed my thinking.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So we don't have any good evidence and it might partly relate to our methods. We don't have good evidence of the relationship between Fisher and client as being a truly reciprocal relationships we think

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): These direct marketing initiatives or operations need to get more networked they need to relate to not just record rings, but other kinds of sustainable materials and initiatives.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I will say people in Sweden are very environmentally conscious. So there's lots and lots of things they could be connected to, but they're not

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We don't. I wouldn't say that I'm seeing a prefigured of politics with direct marketing a fish year. And I think it's because it's too defendant to dependent on individual fishers and clients.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And the participation is to a femoral particularly from the client side and I say up here on the slide that's really figurative rather than prefigure to politics and I'm borrowing.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That were refitted from Florian in a recent article that he wrote, which is just sort of suggesting

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): People are expressing an aspiration in participating in direct marketing, but they're not actually living a new system. And then the final point, which I must say comes more from me than from my doctoral student Victor

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I think that the scholarship on direct marketing of fish is as a little too enthusiastic and not enough critical do Florian in that article he talks about

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Scholars talking about alternative food networks and euphoric terms and I completely agree with him. I think that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I would like to see a little more critical reflection on some of the shortcomings of fish in

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Alternative Food Network's because I think that's the only way. If we really want to build an alternative Food Network, then we need to see what the problems are so then we can work against them. Thank you.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Thank you so much. Maurice, I will turn the podium over to Christopher county to say a few words and please if you have questions, you can let me know when they Q AMP. A this is addressed to the audience. And I will relay the questions for you. Thank you. So, Chris.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Thanks, Lori and thanks Maris. This was really interesting. I have to admit I was a little bit

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Anxious because I was like, oh God talk about fish in Sweden. Two things I know nothing about.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): How will I possibly, you know, connect with this or whatever. But it's been fascinating to see how similar the issues are in the Swedish case of direct marketing efficient to what's going on in the United States, and probably in other places around

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): This sort of opposition between alternative forms of Food Network's

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Debates about food sovereignty and food justice and conventional or, you know, industrialized food production in different ways. And I think if I had one sort of big

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): reaction to this, it is that it's, it seems pretty clear that the opposition between alternative food networks or small scale food or whatever and conventional systems is getting in the way of us understanding what's going on here.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And I'm thinking, in particular about some of the mediating institutions that are themselves involved in these changes.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And and and maybe from an anthropological perspective.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): It might be possible to unfold. Some of those relations. So some obvious ones are simply things like farmers markets or local markets where

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): There's a kind of mediating buyer or a place where there's some chain of connections, where you know it's not direct marketing in the sort of

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Idealized or utopian sense of going directly to the person who caught the fish, but the fish is the same, right, it's, it's just showing up in a different place right

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Perhaps even more significant our restaurants and restaurant tours, especially around different kinds of food fads. Right, so the the rage over the last decade for for local localism for

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): You know, for for healing these kinds of relationships.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): You know, it's something that has been very present in American discussions of food politics as well. And I think particular of something like Michael Pollan's book The Omnivore's Dilemma, which which ends with, you know,

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Something that I think you could put into that box of enthusiastic and euphoric, which is the sort of you know description of swell farms and it's, you know, provision of all of these

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): meat and vegetables products to restaurants in Washington, DC. Right. And for him. It is this. He's like, we can solve this problem right with with this story.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And what I think's interesting about that and I thought about it when I read that book as well as thinking about it in your cases is that

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): One of the problems we have is a problem of scalability or thinking about scale in different ways and

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): The scalability problem is something that I've thought a lot about with respect to participate participation and participatory projects as well.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Because one of the things that happens is that people idealize the face to face, or the small scale.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): The contextual the highly specific that you know we're all of the relations are legible and accessible to individuals who are engaged in those relations.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And identify that as a good thing because it is right. It has its virtues and whatnot.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And then attempt to scale that up but to keep it small, to keep it small and large at the same time. Right. And it's very, very hard to do that right

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And I think that that's part of what's going on with the EU pushing for things like direct marketing or alternative Food Network's is they're saying

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): It works in this small fishing town. Let's make sure it works in all the small fishing towns kind of the same, right. And so, again, I think I feel like the opposition between

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): You know, small scale and large scale is what's what's kind of getting in the way of really thinking about these things. And so that's one, you know, sort

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Of way of maybe reopening up that the other thing, the other way to reopen it, I think, is to is to exactly where you end it, which is what would it mean to be critical of these small scale.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Cases, right. One thing that came to mind while I was listening to you is actually that the small scale fishing community is actually the paradigmatic case for work on commons and common property regimes, so

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Elinor Ostrom is famous work you know she has these stories and Robert Alex and and others have you stories like for instance of the lobstermen of Maine rights of classic story.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): They have complete control over this. They have a small scale face to face that of relations is extremely thick right in that sense with with their customers and their locals bit

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): But it's also extremely violent and racist and exclusionary and right. So there are many problems with it.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And so a lot of ways, and a lot of ways that kind of idealization of the small scale or the common property has its dark side to it and maybe it's worth asking some of those questions about these small scale producers.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And then finally, I think, you know, the, the question of the material flows. This one's that's very, very interesting to me, actually.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): I've been thinking a lot about animals recently actually got gotten into thinking about else for the first time in my career.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And one of the things that's very clear about some of these large scale processes of fish is that we've actually transformed we've we've domesticated or changed the way in which we domesticate

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Fish event. Right. And so, you know, the salmon is a great case because it, especially in the Pacific Northwest, the fish have to

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): You know they spawn, but then they go out to the ocean, but then they come back in before they're harvested. Right. And so we're expanding the definition of what the dumbasses large into farther and farther into the ocean. Right. And it's a really kind of fascinating.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Way of troubling that distinction between the small scale farmers who or the small scale fishermen.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And the industrial system right the industrial systems already out there in the ocean. In many ways, right, and

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): So even though the Fisher, the small scale fishermen is out there, collecting it and giving it directly to the consumer, you're still in meshed in that system. And that to me is fast.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): For biological reasons, right, and evolutionary reasons, at some level,

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And that's really fascinating to me too. And so I think all of those. I would sort of put in that box of, like, let's, let's think about some different ways to

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): To get beyond the opposition between those two and ask, what's the right methodological way to get into the problems of mediation or intermediate ways in which these things are being

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Transformed around us and what are the implications of that.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): So I'll stop there and then maybe you can respond, a little bit to that. And then we can see if there any questions and continue the conversation that way. Thanks. That was really fascinating and I learned a ton.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Great.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Thank you. Well, thank you.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That's great. And those are really helpful. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): You know, as with happened so often, maybe with academics that we we end up with these binaries that are productive for a while and then it's time to to quit.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Talking in binary terms and I think you're absolutely right that the kind of alternative conventional dichotomy, it's it's it's

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Things are much more mediated and interwoven and and i think like the Floridians worker. He is talking about rethinking of politics. I mean,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And other people like Elizabeth program and has also written a really nice book called eating the ocean, you know, they're kind of saying, look,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): As you said, We're all touched by these industrial systems, all the time. I mean, if you live on this planet, you know you are interacting with some aspect of this industrial system. So there is a kind of a fantasy. I agree with you. That's kind of involved in these sort of

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): smallness of scale and direct marketing that people haven't really removed themselves from these industrial flows of you maybe they've diverted a small little piece and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I think that's, that's really important and and really good. Yeah, the whole EU initiative. I mean, there is a I hear this pancake comment, talking about the EU to that.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): You know you countries are also in you policies related to the common market or the common fisheries policies is that it's also this kind of, you know, one size fits all model like oh look, see this, this works here in Italy. Wait. Everybody's going to do it now and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The holy, you will be full of these little happy little villages with them small scale producers selling food just tourists and it certainly doesn't work.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): It's an interesting idea. But in practice, not really feasible, because you know all these contexts do make a difference as course any Polish will tell you. Yeah. And I agree with you to that, um,

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): You know, tighten it small scale fishing villages can also be, for example, here in Sweden very white communities there. They can be

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): patriarchal communities, you know, they're not so I that's a question that I think about often with this fisheries research as well. What is it we want to sustain and why

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): So I think that's a really important, important question, just as a comment on the biological sort of remaking

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Here on the west coast of Sweden.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We have a shrimp fishery and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Krista, which is not exactly lobster European lobster, I guess.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And both of those fisheries are in a way

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That they're they're quite productive fisheries right now and they're actually in a way, a result of these industrial processes or one of those some of those big fish.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Those big predators had been removed from the ecosystem, which allows these crustaceans to flourish. So it's just to the point of what you're saying. Absolutely. Yes, yes.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Thank you so much.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Maybe I can just follow up with a with a question a little bit more about the social formations and and and places. I know that you, you did.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Talking in you, you've been looking in your work at the revitalization of ports as well as of fishing and fishermen themselves and I'm sort of interested to hear more about

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): About the interaction between sort of Community landscape place and and the fishermen and then a second question I have is also just sort of relative to Greece, where

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Where the, the local fishing the occupation of local fishing is not been so much the question of competition with larger industrial fishing, because there is still so much very small scale.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Attempts to fishing. The problem has been the fish stock and and the sort of just in possibility of a of a livelihood in relationship to that I just wonder if that if there has been much comparative work with a kind of a market like Greece, which is very dispersed.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And and and northern markets, which we seem to have it more

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Large scale kind of kind of base. So I'm just curious, but first questions, please.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Great. Well, let me actually turn to the last one, just to say that

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We agree with you that kind of north south comparison could be really interesting. And my colleague, Sebastian Lincoln, who's one of the researchers on this project has been talking about that during this project that you know

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): We would love to compare you know

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Swedish fishing villages with, you know, Italian fishing villages or Greek fishing villages. I'm exactly for these reasons.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Partly because we have this kind of EU top down sets of policies that are acting as if we're all the same. But of course, if you go to those realities. They're very, very different and that we really could be interesting to see that kind of come here to work. There's

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): There's not, I would say there's not much and maybe there's none really would be at least I haven't found it. Maybe it's a short answer. And it's a pity, because I think it would be really useful.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Yeah, I can say this, this particular research project that we're working on. We have the summary some marine center as a sort of our community partner on this project and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The, the marine center in some reason was, in part, created by the township because of the issue of the harbor.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That they have what was once in the past are really important large fishing harbor in Sweden that today has very few boats actually landing fish there.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And a question came up about 10 years ago. Okay. Are we going to keep maintaining this harbor and if we are going to maintain the harbor, then we need some reasons to do that and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And I think the summary Tom anyway has decided that they absolutely want small scale fishing and the marine central then sort of created to kind of find ways to keep what's there there and to rejuvenate it to the extent that it can

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I would say if you if you're going along the Baltic coast and to some extent. Once you get out of

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Gotham Burg, if you go

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Farther away from Gothenburg, you'll see this to on the, on the, on the western coast here.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That fishing villages, a lot of them have become

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Places where rich urbanites by summer cottages and make summer visits. So they have an extraordinarily different character in the winter than they do in the summer.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And, you know, on the one hand, there's some enthusiasm for that locally. I think because it's been a way to keep these communities alive and it does provide certain amounts of justification for road maintenance and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): LOCAL SCHOOLS AND SOMETHING, but it's it's on the other hand, it is a very, it's a it's a lot of fluctuation and it's big changes.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): As well for these for these communities and I can say just on a semi time Township, you know that we've been there and kind of talking to people. I mean, you know, there's some deep sadness.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): About the loss of fishing about these smaller harbors outside of the summertime kind of Township center there's the the township includes a lot of villages and semi time is the only commercial

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Active commercial point anymore. And people talk about now. Now we just have sailboats we don't have any fishing boats and there. There's some you do for in some local groups like village associations.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Involved in initiatives to kind of preserve certain aspects of the fishing landscape so they used to be a lot of eel fishing on that coast. Now there's not many eel, and so also there's pretty

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Serious restrictions and who's allowed to fish eel, and how much they're allowed to fish, but the kind of coast is dotted with them eel houses.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Where people would store their gear and their and their boats and, you know, maybe they would stay there overnight during the eel fishing season and so on and different village associations have been

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): restoring them one in basketball, which is close to the symbolism Center. I made a small museum as a kind of complete Community initiative with the

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Old gear and they cleaned it out and it got some of these old boats and whatever. Others are used for sort of Association meeting places and so on. So there is, there's

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And then others have Vizio houses have been turned into summer cottages. So it's kind of a range of things, but there is there is some

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Local desire.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): To to retain a fishing heritage and I would say

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): At least in some quarters, there's, there's also a desire to to retain fishing actual fishing.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Can I ask one more question. I think I was just thinking about the the reputation that Sweden has for enjoying preserved fish, for instance.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): I'm thinking like this direct marketing include forms of canning preserving all of these things, or is it really is there a fresh fish fetish going on here. I'm just curious about that for the the people you talk to you.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Yeah, the, the people that we've worked with mostly we're selling

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Fresh, but one of one of the operations. He did some vacuum pack vacuum packing also

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): There is, as you say, I mean, there's a huge preserved fish tradition here.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): And there are, I mean, I sort of heard about

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Since I started this project, you know, some fishers in the northern Baltic who are sort of part time fishers and then they have a smoke house and the restaurant and they're kind of doing holy. So there's, there are some examples of that, where they're doing

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Part time fishing part time processing and then maybe a tourist destination kind of a kind of a thing as well. But most of the direct marketing is fresh filleted fish.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): I have one more question. I'm

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Sort of following up. I think maybe on some of Chris's points.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): About the

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): In which we

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Think in polarities and and how that might be interfering with some of the not only the the marketing problems and the consumption promise but also the politics of some of this is in an interesting way. But this question is from the audience.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So this is for both of you. How might gene editing technologies and similar large scale scientific interventions affect

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): The market dynamics between consumers small Fisher and industrial fisheries, I'm thinking, for instance of the recent project undertaken in Norwegian aquaculture to use crisper

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): In order to make Atlantic salmon less susceptible to see lies, much like their Pacific counterparts.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): How might an intervention like this affect the relationships between producers and consumers and what might be the benefits and drawbacks. And we only have a sort of an, a little bit of time. I think it's too interesting to pass up. So, in turn, either one of you.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): I can, I can say something not not particularly well informed, but like I can at least talk a little bit about how the fishers, think about agriculture and

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): The salmon farms up there and some of the worries. One of the worries related to gene editing his fish that escape and what the consequences of these farmed fish escaping and breeding with the wild fish are going to be so that that's a serious worry

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): That nobody nobody really knows what the answer to that is going to be

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): But I mean, I think there's a

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): These fishers are like the wildness of the kind of fishing, they do and they like the wildness of the marine environments and the wildness of the fish so gene editing technology is not definitely not something they are enthusiastic about

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Rest, you know,

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Yeah, well, I'll just say that it's interesting to think about the the full range of farmed fish right and also all of the technology that goes into that as opposed to the

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): The other side of that, which is what people want from wild fishing right and like

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): And again, you know, is there. Is this a clear opposition or are we dealing with something which is fuzzy as as an opposition right and part what I mentioned about the

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): The domestication of fish in the Pacific Northwest is about

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): farmed salmon becoming part of the wild population. Right. And so there's a lot of that going on. I think all around the world as a result of the intensive intensive ministry.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Of Agriculture in different places. Right. And so, crisper and it's used to to produce particular fish is one example of that.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): But other. I mean, it's a much broader field, I think, very similar kinds of concerns, having to do with what we feed farmed fish what the toxicity levels are farmed fish, you know what

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): Kinds of evolutionary consequences we have from basically producing the same kind of fish over and over and over again through hatcheries right so

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): There's a whole lot of things going on. I think in that domain of farmed fish.

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): That really kind of question at some level, the ontology of the fish right like this is rich, it's interesting to think about. But I also think that we can't make an easy opposition between the wild fish that's out there in the ocean and the farmed fish that's

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Christopher Kelty (UCLA SocGen): As much as we would like to. It's, it's pretty difficult to do that these days.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Well, thank you. Thank you, Chris and and thank you Maurice very much

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Oh, we have an important question from Sweden, which I'll have to, I just have to quickly mention, we don't really have much time to answer it, but

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Picking up on what Maris just mentioned the deep seated cultural aspects of direct market marketing.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): For example, in Italy or Sweden which also have a historical dimension. Does any of you know sexual comparing cultural aspects of direct marketing efforts and buyer, seller relations in different countries or regions.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Well, we don't we don't have much time to to pick up on on that question, but it's definitely a very interesting comparative

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Project, and it's a global project. I think what you both have pointed out is that there just aren't any boundaries that separate the important you know parts that we segment.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Intellectually, to try to sort through these questions and the challenges of being somewhere between a museum fishing industry and a real industry.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So I want to thank you both very much for your, for your comments and your and your questions and your and your and your extraordinarily interesting research that you're doing Maris

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Please check our website for upcoming talks for this year on Friday, we have a museum, we have a talk with a vendor museum by UCLA historian arch Getty on Soviet anti Semitism.

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And on Saturday morning we're joining the University of the Aegean for a colloquium on migration and borders in the pandemic. So please join us. We also have several talks scheduled in the winter and spring quarter's as part of the

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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): International Institute's Black Lives Matters global perspective series. So please do check the website and thank thank you all for joining us today. Thanks. And goodbye.

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Maris Gillette (University of Gothenburg): Thanks, Lori. Thank you.