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good afternoon
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or good evening wherever you may be in
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the world uh welcome my name is michael
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berry i'm director of the center for
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chinese studies here at ucla
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and this is our part of our regular
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lecture series
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it's my great honor to welcome everyone
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here thank you for joining us online
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and we've had a really exciting series
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of lectures over the last couple of
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months and we have a lot of
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uh events coming up very soon we'll have
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a new initiative with the taiwan academy
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and we're going to be
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hosting a number of writers artists from
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taiwan over the next couple of
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months including baishin yong the
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well-known writer so
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please if you're not already a
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subscriber log on to the center for
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chinese studies website and you can
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sign up for our mailing list to get
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information on future events
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for today i'm going to turn the
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moderating duties over to my
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colleague in the history department
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professor arbin wong who is
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distinguished professor of history
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he's the author of china transformed
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co-author of before and beyond
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divergence and many
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other articles books edited volumes
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and it's my great pleasure to welcome
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professor wong who will be introducing
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our speaker
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and moderating today's session
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thank you michael uh and hello everyone
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morning evening afternoon wherever
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whatever
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um it's my pleasure to introduce um
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and professor andrew leo of villanova
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university
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uh andy's an assistant professor who did
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his
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phd at columbia university i believe if
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i remember
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correctly um a student uh
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principal advisor maddie zellen but
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someone who studied in that fertile
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atmosphere of colombia and
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the new history of capitalism and um
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a global history of capitalism and other
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things that have
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developed at that institution and led
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the eastern seaboard
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and of course philadelphia is is a near
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mid-atlantic
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connection so i assume uh professor leo
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still feels quite at home in his uh
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his current digs um so this afternoon
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i'm
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we're going to get treated to a
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presentation of his recent book tea war
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a history of capitalism in china in
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india for those of us who were
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china scholars as i suspect many of us
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are
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it is a treat to have a book that
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explicitly engages
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not merely china in some broader context
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but systematically puts it into
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a comparison that um explores
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some important features of what takes
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place in 19th century india as well
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so without further ado i turn it over to
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professor leo
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all right great thanks uh thanks
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everyone for attending
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uh during what is i'm sure a very busy
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and weird time for everyone
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uh wherever you are thank you to the
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ucla center for chinese studies
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thank you to michael berry and esther
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for the invitation
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uh sorry my ac system might be a little
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loud
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and thanks of course to ben bid wong for
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agreeing to comment
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um so the last time i did one of these
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zoom talks about my book
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was a few months ago i was actually i
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was just thinking about this yesterday
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it was the day
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after the election which you can recall
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nothing was settled at the time and
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so when i gave that talk i was very
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sleep deprived and
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i think it might have been a good talk
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it might have been a bad talk but the
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point is
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i really have no memory whatsoever of
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giving that talk about my book
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so yesterday when i was trying to
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prepare for today's talk i i really had
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no memory of what i had said last time
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and i kind of felt like
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i had to write this talk from scratch so
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in theory that might be a good thing to
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to kind of write something organically
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rather than memorizing something
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from a few months ago but today uh
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appropriately enough i guess i'm happy
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to give this talk
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to launch the biden administration to
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launch a new future and hopefully uh
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the optimism in the air will will uh
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will carry over to the talk itself
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um so i won't talk about everything in
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the book itself of course i wanna
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we don't have enough time to kind of
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engage in all the specific details but i
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do wanna focus on some of the key
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themes and takeaways of the book and uh
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highlight some of the points that are
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not necessarily controversial
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but would make for a good conversation
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right and i know there are a few points
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that
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ben was interested in talking about in
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particular so i also will kind of spend
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more
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time highlighting some of those themes
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and then some of those questions
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um so the book itself i have a copy with
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me right here
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the the big picture the themes of the
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book
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um some of the categories that could
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help the audience members locate it
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within scholarship um uh
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include the fact that well we can start
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with the fact that you know this book is
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it's a global and comparative history of
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the tea trades and the tea industries of
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china and india
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from the 19th to 20th century right so
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that's just like the simplest
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tagline for what this book is about uh
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and the question that kind of consumed
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me
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starting in the you know in graduate
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school and revising this dissertation to
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a book
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so for over a decade at this point i
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guess is this question of how do you
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write a history of capitalism
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in this part of the world right and
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we're talking about the rural
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hinterlands of asia the royal
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hinterlands of the chinese
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the tea districts of china the tea
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plantations of india
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how do you write a history of capitalism
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about uh for these parts of the world
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um through a type of conceptualization
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that is also broad enough to encompass
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all sorts of different kind of social
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formations right so
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a conception of capitalism that can
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account for the sort of classical story
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of the rise of the west but also account
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for the sort of rest of the world
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but at the same time a conception that
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is also agile
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and versatile and flexible enough to
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deal with the sort of specific details
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of what exactly is happening in china
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what exactly is happening in india
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and potentially many other places right
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in the post-colonial or you know what
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we could also call the rest of the world
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um so this led me to spend a lot of time
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over the last decade or so thinking
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about
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um how can we conceptualize capitalism
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in a way that is
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rigorous that is intellectually
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consistent and honest
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right not fitting theory to history
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history to theory in a very simplistic
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way
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and also a conceptualization that is
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adequate to global history adequate to
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the moment we're living in
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and i'll say more about that in a moment
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um but i think you can immediately see
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you know how this work or where this
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work should be placed
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within a few directions of scholarship
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over the last several years
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first off it is very obviously it's a
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it's a history that is
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interested in connections and
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comparisons it is you know it's
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transnational it's global it's
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comparative all these sort of
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uh categories that are out there that
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are all kind of share in common
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a critique of uh the nation state a
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critique of
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methodological nationalism right
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thinking about different units of
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analysis
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to move beyond taking you know china as
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a static
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subject of history or india or england
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or the united states
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so that's one one kind of clear
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direction of scholarship
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and the other one is that this this book
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is also
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my attempt to try to speak to a
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resurgent interest in the united states
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academy at least
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of something called the history of
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capitalism that you know ben
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had briefly referenced right and this is
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a phenomenon for those of you
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uh who are not historians um you know or
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but have probably heard of this that
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this is something that's kind of come
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out of the 2008 financial crisis
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a real interest in historicizing this
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institution called capitalism
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but it's primarily thus far been done by
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and for
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students of history in the north
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atlantic right the united states in
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particular but also
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western europe um predominantly
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interested in for instance histories of
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slavery and
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in slave labor united states but also
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you know financial institutions in
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western europe and
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the international fight the
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international system of the 20th century
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um thus far um it's not really
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this conversation has not really dealt
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with places like china india or asia and
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the rest of the world but i do think
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that
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you know we shouldn't be complaining or
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concerned about uh
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resigned to our fate or anything i think
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this is actually a good opportunity this
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is providing good
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language uh to connect the scholarship
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uh
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and have a conversation uh between those
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who work on you know
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are china and india and asia with the
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rest of the world
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but you know that might be a bit
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optimistic we'll see where the
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conversation goes but this book i think
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is
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certainly an attempt to kind of engage
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that
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interest and the other thing to kind of
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briefly mention is that you know
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this this book is it's china and the
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rest of the world but it's not just
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china
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and europe or china in the west right
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this is explicitly a consciously an
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attempt to think about china's
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connection to
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other parts of the colonial or
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post-colon colonial world in this case
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india
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and there i think there are a lot of
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benefits to moving beyond the sort of
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east-west paradigm
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to think about lateral connections
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between or across these sort of
288
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,640
non-european societies
289
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,399
such that you don't get these sort of
290
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,000
reductive statements about in the west
291
00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:05,200
things are like this in the rest of the
292
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,640
world things are like this
293
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,240
there's a lot of differences but also a
294
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,839
lot of overlap between
295
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,279
the history of china and india at this
296
00:09:09,839 --> 00:09:12,399
at this moment in time and i think you
297
00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:14,720
know for anyone who's
298
00:09:12,399 --> 00:09:16,160
studied the 19th or 20th century uh
299
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,640
these connections come up all the time
300
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,640
right and
301
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,480
i think it's it would be good to explore
302
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,160
these further and we could talk about
303
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,760
sort of the potential uh the potential
304
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,440
the openings that are opened up
305
00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:29,200
uh from taking that approach um
306
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,720
okay so let me begin before kind of
307
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,240
delving even further uh
308
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,440
into these kind of meta theoretical
309
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,959
questions let me just kind of give a
310
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,560
basic
311
00:09:34,959 --> 00:09:38,320
kind of walk us through the plot right
312
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,279
of the story of this history so that we
313
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,640
kind of know
314
00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:46,160
where we are what time and and uh
315
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,560
who who is doing what right so the
316
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,680
the the point of departure for this book
317
00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:52,720
is the first opium war
318
00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:54,480
right 1839-1842 um
319
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,000
which you know i think most of us are
320
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,720
aware was not just this
321
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,760
british chinese war but it actually
322
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,519
emerged out of this
323
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,760
triangle trade that also involved
324
00:10:01,519 --> 00:10:05,040
colonial india right so there was this
325
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,560
trade triangle where british
326
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,040
manufactured goods
327
00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:09,600
go to india indian opening opm goes to
328
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,240
china
329
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,720
chinese tea goes back to uh to western
330
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,360
europe
331
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,839
into the uk and even before the opium
332
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,920
war
333
00:10:15,839 --> 00:10:20,399
breaks out tea has become a wildly
334
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,160
popular commodity in western europe
335
00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:23,680
in combination with and especially in
336
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,200
combination with cane sugar
337
00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:27,600
that has grown in the west indies right
338
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,800
these caribbean plantations that are
339
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,560
managed and owned by european powers
340
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,160
relying upon enslaved african labor
341
00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,600
right so from the very beginning
342
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,440
tea is plugged into these global
343
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,000
networks of commodities
344
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,480
a very diverse production labor and
345
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,720
social
346
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,000
social formations around the world and
347
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,839
that is kind of a theme i want to
348
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,720
continue to explore
349
00:10:45,839 --> 00:10:50,079
going forward with the book now the
350
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,079
opium war itself
351
00:10:50,079 --> 00:10:53,279
uh you know if you think about how was
352
00:10:52,079 --> 00:10:55,279
it justified how was it
353
00:10:53,279 --> 00:10:57,360
how was it articulated by british
354
00:10:55,279 --> 00:10:59,519
officials the argument was that
355
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,440
this war was is being fought to
356
00:10:59,519 --> 00:11:03,200
liberalize the qing monopoly
357
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,519
on trade right the canton system very
358
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,079
famously in guangzhou in southern china
359
00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,120
um at the same moment in the 1830s and
360
00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:11,120
40s
361
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,480
east india company officials in this
362
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,720
northeast newly acquired
363
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,399
northeast territory of assam are trying
364
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200
to start a sort of their own tea
365
00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:19,120
industry
366
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,640
colonial tea industry and they use the
367
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,880
exact same language
368
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,880
the militaristic language of trying to
369
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,680
annihilate the qing monopoly
370
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,640
by emulating their tea industry right so
371
00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,480
the argument i kind of
372
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,920
the conclusion i sort of reached is that
373
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,200
the establishment of indian t
374
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,640
was the opium war by other means and so
375
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,120
from that from that moment onwards in
376
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,880
the 1840s and 1850s we have
377
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:44,480
um the creation of indian tea industry
378
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,959
and hopefully everyone can see this
379
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,720
right so this is a chart of
380
00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:50,399
the major tea producing regions by the
381
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,639
turn of the 20th century
382
00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:54,399
and the major ones in china that produce
383
00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:56,639
tea for the rest of the world
384
00:11:54,399 --> 00:11:58,000
are kind of this stretch of land here uh
385
00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:59,760
that i talk about in the book
386
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,760
onway province and fujian province in
387
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,279
the southeast and then assam
388
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,120
in northeast india now there's also of
389
00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:06,639
course the dutch east indies there's
390
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,880
ceylon there's japan
391
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:09,839
those eventually matter a great deal but
392
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,600
at the beginning of the story it's
393
00:12:09,839 --> 00:12:14,800
really a china-india story
394
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,639
at first so the title t war
395
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,160
kind of has a multiple meanings right
396
00:12:16,639 --> 00:12:19,279
the first is a sort of play on the idea
397
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,120
of an opium war
398
00:12:19,279 --> 00:12:22,480
that tea is actually economic
399
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,920
competition through t is sort of the
400
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,560
opium war by other means right it's
401
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,000
through the
402
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:28,639
through the trade in t um the other
403
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,079
meaning though
404
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,680
and the thing that i actually explore
405
00:12:30,079 --> 00:12:33,200
throughout the rest of the book is
406
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:36,160
what happens over the course of the next
407
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,839
century where from the 1840s onwards
408
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,639
we have the chinese tea industry that's
409
00:12:37,839 --> 00:12:42,399
really liberalized has liberalized trade
410
00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:44,079
uh exports from qing china to the rest
411
00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:46,399
of the world really explode
412
00:12:44,079 --> 00:12:47,519
and you also have this nascent colonial
413
00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,639
indian tea industry
414
00:12:47,519 --> 00:12:52,639
that by the 1860s and 70s also emerges
415
00:12:50,639 --> 00:12:54,240
and they're pitted into this very fierce
416
00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:56,560
direct competition with each other for
417
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,519
the global marketplace
418
00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:01,200
by the 1880s and 1890s both the british
419
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:02,880
officials and planters as well as the
420
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,160
chinese merchants and officials
421
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,320
they are conceptualizing this
422
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,480
competition and tea through the same
423
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,200
kind of militaristic metaphors
424
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,560
um so the t the the phrase teawor comes
425
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,560
from a british planter
426
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:16,320
who talks about the tea war that has
427
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,040
been waged with china right up until
428
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,519
this point
429
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,440
in the 1880s 1890s and it's around the
430
00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:22,079
same moment that in chinese in chinese
431
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,680
uh
432
00:13:22,079 --> 00:13:25,279
intellectual thinking the famous kind of
433
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:28,000
political economic thinker
434
00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:29,040
uh zhang guaning very famously comes up
435
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,079
with this phrase right
436
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,320
shanghai commercial warfare in the 1890s
437
00:13:32,079 --> 00:13:36,160
um to to kind of describe the the
438
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,440
competition in tea but also silk the
439
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,399
major export goods
440
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,600
out of team china at the time so for me
441
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:42,880
there's something interesting about the
442
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,399
fact that you know these writers of
443
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,480
course not talking to each other
444
00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:48,000
but they are both independently arriving
445
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,079
at this discourse that mirrors one
446
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,120
another that economic competition is a
447
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:53,120
kind of warfare
448
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,480
that they have to participate in uh and
449
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,000
it's a kind of battle it's not just
450
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,120
trade it's not this sort of placid
451
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,399
process of
452
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,720
you know trade that reaches an
453
00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:01,360
equilibrium it's actually militaristic
454
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,560
fierce
455
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,120
competitive battle and so this led me to
456
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,279
kind of
457
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,120
uh believe or come up with the argument
458
00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:11,199
that ultimately then
459
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,720
uh the subject of this book right isn't
460
00:14:11,199 --> 00:14:16,160
just the the subject of the chinese
461
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,279
chinese tea trade the indian tea tree
462
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,560
the subject is this process of
463
00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:21,199
competition itself this
464
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,880
transnational process of competition um
465
00:14:21,199 --> 00:14:24,639
it's a process that is worth kind of
466
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,639
focusing on its own terms
467
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:27,760
a mutually determinative process where
468
00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:29,279
both sides are kind of
469
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,959
uh kind of fighting each other so it's
470
00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:32,959
back and forth uh
471
00:14:30,959 --> 00:14:34,800
and it involves chinese subjects british
472
00:14:32,959 --> 00:14:36,240
subjects indian subjects
473
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,839
but they're playing different roles and
474
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,959
they have different relationships to one
475
00:14:37,839 --> 00:14:41,199
another throughout this
476
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:42,639
throughout the course of this history so
477
00:14:41,199 --> 00:14:43,760
it's by tracking and kind of
478
00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:45,040
foregrounding this process of
479
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,880
competition that i think
480
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,880
we can understand the process it's this
481
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,199
just the historical transformations
482
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,480
themselves better um and also kind of
483
00:14:51,199 --> 00:14:53,360
understand like what is the actual
484
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,199
relationship
485
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,120
that uh the transnational relationship
486
00:14:55,199 --> 00:14:58,720
that is connecting india with china at
487
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,600
this time
488
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,440
and part of this you know
489
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,959
methodologically was my kind of
490
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,120
wrestling with this question
491
00:15:02,959 --> 00:15:06,800
of units of analysis right how do you do
492
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,240
this as a national history
493
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,839
uh well if you do a national history
494
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,079
then you're going to kind of
495
00:15:09,839 --> 00:15:12,880
exclude the other half of the story do
496
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:15,120
you do this as a sort of
497
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,680
all-encompassing world history well
498
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,279
world histories tend to be almost too
499
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,560
almost too broad and too vague and they
500
00:15:19,279 --> 00:15:22,720
kind of flatten all these
501
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,440
different particularities and the sort
502
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,880
of dynamic changes over time
503
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,120
so the argument i make is that or the
504
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,519
argument that you know drawing from
505
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,600
others who've written about this is that
506
00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,839
the if if we kind of allow the object of
507
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,839
analysis the unit of analysis itself
508
00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:39,680
to emerge out of the historical process
509
00:15:37,839 --> 00:15:41,759
then this can help us kind of
510
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,120
pay greater attention or to write a
511
00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,120
history that is more adequate
512
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,480
right to understanding the nature of in
513
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,360
this particular case capitalist
514
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,240
competition
515
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,560
as a driver uh as a driver of change in
516
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,279
this
517
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,000
in this moment in time so i can say more
518
00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:55,839
about that
519
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,160
later but you know obviously this is
520
00:15:55,839 --> 00:16:00,480
like if you get into very like abstract
521
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,800
theoretical talk that we can try to try
522
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,480
to cap at this point
523
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,880
and the last plot point here is that by
524
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,480
the 1890s the colonial indian tea
525
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,160
industry has toppled
526
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,839
its chinese competitors this is just a
527
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,120
basic chart showing the sort of
528
00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:15,279
right the sort of crisscrossing that
529
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,880
happens by the 1880s 1890s
530
00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:18,639
and this is a shocking development
531
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,240
especially for those in china the
532
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:22,160
qing officials as well as the chinese
533
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,600
merchants who have been until this point
534
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,839
it was unimaginable
535
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,959
for them to lose their market share to
536
00:16:25,839 --> 00:16:29,519
the indian tea industry which they were
537
00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:31,199
barely even aware of at this time
538
00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:33,040
why does indian tea succeed and why does
539
00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:34,079
chinese tea you know collapse at this
540
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,759
point
541
00:16:34,079 --> 00:16:37,360
well there are a lot of explanations
542
00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:38,720
that emerged at the time and
543
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,639
subsequent historians have tried to
544
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,120
explain it as well um
545
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:44,639
and you can kind of it's kind of not
546
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,320
that much of a surprise that a lot of
547
00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:49,120
those explanations
548
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,279
uh sort of are rely upon these very
549
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,120
stereotype stereotypical descriptions
550
00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:54,639
of what is wrong with china at this time
551
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,399
and conversely what is
552
00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:58,399
going so well for europe and in the
553
00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:59,839
british empire at this time
554
00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,920
even though the indian tea industry is
555
00:16:59,839 --> 00:17:04,240
in india it's an asian tea industry
556
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,160
it is seen by its you know its champions
557
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,480
and the planters and the organizers as
558
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,439
a european a british invention so you
559
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,280
have these
560
00:17:09,439 --> 00:17:14,959
very um predictable kind of west is best
561
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,720
type of explanations you i dare say
562
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:18,799
great divergence explanations
563
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,720
that indian tea thrived because it was
564
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:23,280
rational and scientific and modern
565
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,400
civilized chinese tea fails because it's
566
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,720
traditional
567
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,280
it's pre-modern it's pre-capitalist it's
568
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,520
irrational right
569
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,120
and so in trying to sort out this
570
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,600
explanation or this argument about why
571
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,520
indian t
572
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,039
succeeds in chinese tea fails we're also
573
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,160
kind of delving into this broader meta
574
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:39,679
question about
575
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,200
kind of asian studies in the 20th
576
00:17:39,679 --> 00:17:43,520
century or orientalist
577
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,280
explanations orientalist views of china
578
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,440
in the 20th century
579
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,880
so at the time you have these images
580
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,480
these are uh kind of
581
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,799
advertisements or propaganda being
582
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,240
disseminated by the british planters of
583
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,559
the indian tea industry
584
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,919
um who kind of you know kind of like
585
00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,400
nice funny
586
00:17:57,919 --> 00:18:02,320
racist little imagery shows the chinese
587
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,840
merchants being
588
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,080
being by beaten by their indian
589
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,200
competitors we have this one which is a
590
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,240
kind of a stunning picture
591
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,240
which is found in the british library
592
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,440
that really again reifies this idea that
593
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,440
this was not a
594
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,120
that overall the the global tea trade
595
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,160
was kind of two different processes of
596
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,760
once right where
597
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,280
india is going this direction and china
598
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,440
is going in this direction
599
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,880
um and i think this kind of is
600
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,559
compatible with a lot of nationalist
601
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,880
notions of economic history
602
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,160
or history in general right that that
603
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,520
that history is about these different
604
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,120
units these national units that are
605
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,559
moving in different directions
606
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,880
where i'm trying to show that actually
607
00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:38,720
over the same period of time we see
608
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,320
the chinese tea industry the indian tea
609
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,360
industry and just you know the
610
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,039
all the trading partners around the
611
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,640
world are getting closer and closer
612
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:46,080
getting further and further enmeshed
613
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,520
in these processes of competition and
614
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,760
that's a different way to think about
615
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,600
this moment in time
616
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,360
so much of this book is an attempt to
617
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,600
repudiate a lot of these
618
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,960
economic orientalist explanations of
619
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,480
chinese stagnation
620
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,240
and it also gets into debates about you
621
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,160
know was indian t capitalist was it not
622
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,919
capitalist what is colonial capitalism
623
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,000
and so on and so forth
624
00:19:03,919 --> 00:19:07,600
um the book kind of operates on multiple
625
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,200
levels of analysis
626
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,960
the first is that it's kind of a social
627
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,559
economic labor history of how these
628
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,160
industries are organized
629
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:15,840
it's also a conceptual intellectual
630
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,880
history of how these ideas of
631
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,320
backwardness
632
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,039
emerge in the first place of asian
633
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:24,240
backwardness emerge within culture
634
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,640
and i argue that you know that up until
635
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,799
the
636
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,000
kind of the end of the 19th century
637
00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:28,240
we're starting with the end of the 19th
638
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,559
and
639
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,400
turn at the turn of the 20th century we
640
00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:34,080
we begin to see these particular tropes
641
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,720
and metaphors to describe china and
642
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,080
india and
643
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,320
asia more generally as backwards and
644
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,480
those tropes are always kind of
645
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,600
viewing those particular societies right
646
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,559
as as
647
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,480
as very particular and traditional but
648
00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:49,840
the paradox i argue is that these
649
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,120
particular these notions of
650
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,200
particularity
651
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,240
are the result of these very globally
652
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,760
global
653
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,000
uh global connections that are very
654
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,320
dynamic right so we have particular
655
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,320
ideas of about asian tradition that are
656
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,000
the result of global and dynamic
657
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,000
historical processes so that's sort of
658
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,600
the paradox um that's the sort of
659
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,039
punchline of the argument
660
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,720
that in order to explain how china
661
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:11,360
becomes seen as backwards in india in
662
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,559
its own way
663
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,640
we have to actually account for the
664
00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:16,080
global processes that are underlying
665
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,080
them
666
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:21,120
um i mentioned briefly above that you
667
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,159
know competition is a central argument
668
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,000
of the book that
669
00:20:22,159 --> 00:20:25,280
we that's competition can help us kind
670
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,360
of reorganize
671
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,559
thinking about this moment and his this
672
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,000
moment of history
673
00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,080
reorganize thinking about economic
674
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,280
history and as such the book itself is
675
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,159
actually organized
676
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,240
trying to mirror emulate that process of
677
00:20:36,159 --> 00:20:39,919
competition itself it's a kind of
678
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,919
i organize it through sort of back and
679
00:20:39,919 --> 00:20:42,640
forth structure where we have a chapter
680
00:20:41,919 --> 00:20:44,159
in china
681
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,000
where china rises we have a chapter in
682
00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:47,520
india where india rises a chapter in
683
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,400
china where china responds to the rise
684
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,760
of india
685
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,600
and so on and so forth um and
686
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,200
the goal is to kind of help to give the
687
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,760
reader a sense of how this isn't just
688
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,960
a story that can be understood from one
689
00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,440
part of the world it has to have to
690
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,520
actually
691
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,960
jump back and forth because it's a the
692
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,799
competition itself
693
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,880
is a process of a kind of back and forth
694
00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:09,280
mutual uh mutual
695
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,400
mutually constitutive dynamics so as i
696
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,880
say in the introduction
697
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,679
quote competition is not just the
698
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,600
framing
699
00:21:13,679 --> 00:21:18,960
but also my argument for how best to
700
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,240
understand the dynamics of capitalism
701
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,720
and also finally just to kind of give
702
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,080
you a sense of the scale of t and y and
703
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,960
the significance of t why does this
704
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,039
matter
705
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,640
well t was definitely big business at
706
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:29,280
the time in case you know there was any
707
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,200
doubt
708
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,880
chinese tea aside from its cultural
709
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,520
significance and the sort of impetus
710
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,159
behind let's say the the first opium war
711
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,720
t was by far the most exported commodity
712
00:21:38,159 --> 00:21:40,720
from
713
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,159
china in the 19th century in terms of
714
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:47,039
volume and in terms of overall value
715
00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:47,760
in within the indian economy the as in
716
00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:50,159
so far as
717
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,080
as it existed t represented the most
718
00:21:50,159 --> 00:21:55,039
amount of registered companies the most
719
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,559
overseas investment and by the 1920s and
720
00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:58,159
30s i think this is
721
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,640
uh you know the the numbers are a little
722
00:21:58,159 --> 00:22:01,679
bit uh unstable at this time but by the
723
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,520
20s and 30s
724
00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:05,440
when you have these first sort of
725
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,080
industrial employment surveys
726
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,799
i believe it's true that uh t
727
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,159
represented
728
00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:14,480
more official employees workers
729
00:22:12,159 --> 00:22:15,760
uh in china and in india than any of the
730
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,280
comparable
731
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,559
industries in in their time right so
732
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,600
there are more people working in tea
733
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,600
than in silk
734
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,640
or in cotton or in coal mining or any of
735
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,080
these sort of
736
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,000
major commodities in this part of the
737
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,440
world so really
738
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,520
tea i think it seems kind of goes
739
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,200
without saying that tea is central to
740
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,799
any question about what was the nature
741
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,559
of capitalism in china what was the
742
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:37,600
nature of capitalism in india
743
00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:39,200
at this time at this point in time so
744
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,200
this leads me to the
745
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,559
the kind of one of the major questions i
746
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,080
wanted to address and
747
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,520
i know this is a question that bin was
748
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,799
also curious about discussing because i
749
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,840
know he's written about this as well
750
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:49,120
which is
751
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,559
you know the question of capitalism the
752
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,760
question of how do we conceptualize it
753
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:53,280
how do we think about in a different way
754
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,960
and what is what am i trying to do in
755
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,760
this book
756
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,039
um and i spend a lot of time again as i
757
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,640
mentioned kind of thinking about well
758
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:02,640
how is capitalism
759
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,000
as a concept as a process as a
760
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,919
historical period
761
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,159
how is it conceptualized in past
762
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:11,840
economic histories chinese history
763
00:23:08,159 --> 00:23:13,840
world history european history and uh
764
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,280
trying to come up to come come up with
765
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,039
or or conclude with
766
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,640
what i found to be the most persuasive
767
00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:20,720
conceptualization
768
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,159
i should also say anecdotally that when
769
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,919
i turned in the draft
770
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:25,600
to for the manuscript to be reviewed i
771
00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:27,600
hadn't actually never i got to kind of
772
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,039
dodge the question right of of of
773
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,960
defining or
774
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,960
articulating what i meant by capitalism
775
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,000
a reviewer said you should probably
776
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,880
if you're going to use the word so much
777
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,799
you should actually tell us what you
778
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,640
mean by it and i thought okay well
779
00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:40,080
um i i didn't i didn't really want it
780
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,080
but i guess i have to
781
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,440
um but the the end result is this is
782
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,200
kind of the last thing i wrote
783
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,200
right kind of thinking about what what
784
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,159
was my argument and how do i can how do
785
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,919
i kind of
786
00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:52,320
conceptualize in a way that's hopefully
787
00:23:49,919 --> 00:23:53,919
clear for the reader
788
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,919
and i want to kind of preface what i
789
00:23:53,919 --> 00:23:57,200
mean or how i'm thinking about
790
00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:58,640
capitalism by
791
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,880
briefly talking about what's already out
792
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,240
there the sort of classic conception of
793
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,679
it within economic historiography
794
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,200
among economic historians you're going
795
00:24:05,679 --> 00:24:08,799
to find a lot of different frameworks
796
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,679
for understanding what capitalism means
797
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:11,600
there's the sort of
798
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:14,559
orthodox marxist there's a sort of carl
799
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,679
polanian adam smithy and neoclassical
800
00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:17,600
models
801
00:24:15,679 --> 00:24:19,120
but most of them treat capitalism this
802
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,960
question of capitalism
803
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,640
as a problem of how do you get to
804
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,640
industrialization industrialization is
805
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,039
kind of seen as the apotheosis
806
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,919
of the so the end and all be all of what
807
00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:30,640
this is
808
00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:32,159
uh the question of capitalism is about
809
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,960
and it's often organized around this
810
00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:34,400
question
811
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,000
in national terms how do you get to
812
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,120
english industrialization american
813
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,000
industrialization chinese
814
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,000
industrialization
815
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,600
and one of the features that does seem
816
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:44,480
to be shared in common across these
817
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,840
frameworks
818
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,320
is that capitalism is about the
819
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,360
commodification you know the placing off
820
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,480
on the marketplace
821
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,640
of all the important factors of
822
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,720
production right so land uh
823
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,320
capital or money but especially labor
824
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,919
right proletarianization
825
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,720
has always been seen as a sort of
826
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:03,200
benchmark of modern capitalist societies
827
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,200
the famous argument is that uh england
828
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,840
had proliferationization this led to
829
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,600
english
830
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,600
industrialization before anybody else
831
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,559
and that is this is sort of the hallmark
832
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840
for why
833
00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:14,880
uh for for what makes a society
834
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,919
capitalist famously within chinese
835
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,520
history
836
00:25:15,919 --> 00:25:18,760
mark elvin and philip huang and many
837
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,960
others have argued that the lack of
838
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,880
proletarianization was why china never
839
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,919
developed right and this is
840
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,440
one um this is from an article that from
841
00:25:25,919 --> 00:25:29,520
shahid amin and marcel
842
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,960
and very early on kind of identifying
843
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,159
these tropes within
844
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,400
sociology and economic history that
845
00:25:34,159 --> 00:25:37,919
saw that that assumed that capitalist
846
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,200
labor has to be what marx called right
847
00:25:37,919 --> 00:25:42,320
doubly free labor
848
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,720
neither unfree nor independent right so
849
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,360
this is a problem if we think about the
850
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,960
chinese
851
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:49,440
or the chinese the world tea and does
852
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,679
the world tea market because the two
853
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,240
main producers right china and india
854
00:25:51,679 --> 00:25:55,760
well indian tea production relied upon
855
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,440
what was known as indentured penal
856
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,000
contract-based labor that was
857
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,880
definitely unfree by modern standards
858
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,120
and chinese tea
859
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,159
relied upon um as we know from chinese
860
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,760
historiography right
861
00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:07,200
smallholder peasantry who kind of
862
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,080
performed a little bit of labor on the
863
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,240
side
864
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,120
um and we're market dependent but we're
865
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,520
also kind of only semi-independent or
866
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,760
semi-proletarianized
867
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,440
so as a result you know the classic
868
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,480
historiography has kind of assumed both
869
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,960
chinese tea
870
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,159
and indian tea or neither of them were
871
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,120
capitalists right because neither of
872
00:26:22,159 --> 00:26:25,760
them were
873
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,159
characterized by proletarian labor and
874
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,559
yet
875
00:26:26,159 --> 00:26:31,360
we know right that as i just mentioned
876
00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:32,799
these were massively profitable
877
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,480
industries that were plugged into global
878
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,520
networks of commodity capital
879
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,360
accumulation
880
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,120
and commodity trade so there's a real
881
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,120
sort of disjuncture between this
882
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,320
very english anglo-centric definition of
883
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:45,600
capitalism and
884
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:48,480
world history itself right so
885
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,080
um let me stop i don't have any more
886
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,039
slides for a moment so let me
887
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,720
briefly just go back to this screen so
888
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:56,640
we have this model of capitalism that's
889
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,240
very much this kind of linear path based
890
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,880
on the english experience
891
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,880
and the american experience where firms
892
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:07,279
or producers are getting richer
893
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:09,520
bigger more automated more complicated
894
00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:10,640
and this model is useful in a lot of
895
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,400
ways but in my view it's kind of
896
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,080
one-sided
897
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,679
and there are two in my view kind of
898
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,640
shortcomings with this kind of linear
899
00:27:15,679 --> 00:27:18,240
model of
900
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,679
capitalism as modern as basically
901
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,120
industrialization
902
00:27:19,679 --> 00:27:22,720
then the first is it doesn't really tell
903
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,240
us about what's going on in the parts of
904
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,480
the world that don't fit into this model
905
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,000
and
906
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,840
specifically it doesn't tell us about
907
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,880
what's going on in asia in the 19th
908
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,480
century
909
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,880
and much of the rest of the world of the
910
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,480
postcolonial world at this time
911
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,399
and by extension i don't think it really
912
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,679
accounts for the world we live in today
913
00:27:36,399 --> 00:27:39,600
uh where we know if you've paid
914
00:27:37,679 --> 00:27:41,520
attention uh to you know
915
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,440
economic transformations in the last
916
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,399
half century we are increasingly living
917
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,640
in a
918
00:27:44,399 --> 00:27:49,039
if not asian-centric a world where asia
919
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,159
is a center of a global of the global
920
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:52,399
economy
921
00:27:50,159 --> 00:27:54,159
and firms and production in that part of
922
00:27:52,399 --> 00:27:57,200
the world very often is very
923
00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:59,039
small scale flexible labor intensive and
924
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,080
network-based and transnational in
925
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,159
organization
926
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,600
in a way that really defies the older
927
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:04,640
models
928
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,159
now the point isn't that we have to
929
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,279
throw away those older models the point
930
00:28:06,159 --> 00:28:10,080
is i think we have to
931
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,360
have a conceptualization of capitalism
932
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,799
that can account for
933
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,399
many different phases many different
934
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,039
errors and many different places and
935
00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:17,360
times
936
00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:19,120
within the broader history of capitalism
937
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:21,919
right so to account for
938
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:23,279
capitalism uh in different phases
939
00:28:21,919 --> 00:28:24,880
historians talk about the classical
940
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:26,960
phase the industrial phase the
941
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,960
laissez-faire phase the
942
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,320
sort of protectionist phase the
943
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,360
neoliberal phase
944
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,799
right and we need not necessarily a flat
945
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,760
description of what capitalism looks
946
00:28:34,799 --> 00:28:38,880
like but perhaps
947
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,720
a syntax or a toolbox to explain
948
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,520
all the different moves that have
949
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,120
occurred within capitalism's history
950
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,799
so that's kind of one objection the
951
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,840
other objection is that
952
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:52,080
um when economic historians have tended
953
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200
to view capitalism
954
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,640
when they've tried to talk about it
955
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,240
they've tried to think about it in what
956
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,480
i call technicis terms right where
957
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,320
capitalism is the discussion about
958
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,000
techniques right how do we get to better
959
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,600
and better techniques how do we have
960
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,760
how do we get steam engines how do we
961
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,360
get to you know fossil fuel based
962
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,080
production how do we get to
963
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,159
you know monopoly managerial firms and
964
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,679
so on um
965
00:29:12,159 --> 00:29:15,600
and again that's a very useful inquiry
966
00:29:13,679 --> 00:29:17,039
but i think that type of inquiry
967
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,039
often will take for granted this
968
00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:20,960
underlying social objective
969
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:23,120
of why are people aiming to raise
970
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,799
productivity in the first place
971
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,080
uh rarely do we get an encounter like
972
00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:27,360
why are they trying to build this demon
973
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,320
and why are people trying to
974
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,399
technologically innovate and without an
975
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,320
explanation of that then i think very
976
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:36,480
often we fall into this trap of
977
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,520
making uh sort of a historical or
978
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,279
primordial
979
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,440
explanations about capitalism as human
980
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:42,159
nature right so that's the sort of
981
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,720
another
982
00:29:42,159 --> 00:29:46,240
objection so by contrast the argument
983
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,279
i'm trying to make or that i try to make
984
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,520
in this book is that
985
00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:50,799
we can historicize the underlying social
986
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,039
dynamics
987
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,880
of modern capital accumulation that can
988
00:29:53,039 --> 00:29:56,240
also account for the drive towards
989
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,520
industrialization but it can also go
990
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,320
into many other different directions as
991
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,760
well
992
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,600
depending upon sort of the time and
993
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,559
place of the place of
994
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,159
the object of analysis we're looking at
995
00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:08,559
the rise of capitalism
996
00:30:06,159 --> 00:30:09,520
entails a process in which everyday
997
00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:11,600
economic life
998
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,600
is increasingly organized around the
999
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,240
purchase and sale of human labor
1000
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,600
taking on the form of commodities right
1001
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,679
corresponding to this then
1002
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,159
is a sort of intellectual or conceptual
1003
00:30:19,679 --> 00:30:24,640
shift where we begin to see
1004
00:30:22,159 --> 00:30:26,320
wealth and riches no longer simply tied
1005
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,919
to agriculture or trade which are the
1006
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,960
kind of the oldest ideas that are found
1007
00:30:27,919 --> 00:30:31,039
around the world
1008
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,919
but there are instead being tied to a
1009
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:36,960
generalized concept of human labor
1010
00:30:33,919 --> 00:30:40,159
once wealth is tied to human labor
1011
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,399
then this idea that then then it becomes
1012
00:30:40,159 --> 00:30:43,200
an
1013
00:30:40,399 --> 00:30:44,960
imperative to increase the productivity
1014
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
of human labor as well so the social
1015
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,440
dynamic
1016
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,360
that aims towards the increasing the
1017
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,360
productivity of human labor
1018
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,960
translates into these social pressures
1019
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,159
to make things to make production more
1020
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,039
efficient to make distribution more
1021
00:30:54,159 --> 00:30:57,519
efficient to make
1022
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:59,200
to cut costs everywhere right and here
1023
00:30:57,519 --> 00:30:59,760
of course i think this again the process
1024
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,279
of
1025
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,640
in terms of how do we understand this
1026
00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:03,440
empirically how do we do historical
1027
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,880
research on this
1028
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,440
the process of competition is really
1029
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,200
crucial to the expansion and intensive
1030
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,120
intensification of these social dynamics
1031
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,720
around the world
1032
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,159
now what i just said i admit is very
1033
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,840
abstract
1034
00:31:14,159 --> 00:31:17,600
but that's kind of the point right that
1035
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,200
capitalism is ultimately a very abstract
1036
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,640
system that's very flexible
1037
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,320
and it can take on very many different
1038
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,760
forms of very very many different
1039
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,640
concrete forms
1040
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,559
um so again what this points to is a
1041
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,799
conception of capitalism that is very
1042
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:32,000
uneven that sometimes it does lead to
1043
00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:34,080
the sort of classic industrial
1044
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,279
stories of victorian britain or postwar
1045
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,960
united states
1046
00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:39,120
but also takes on these other kind of
1047
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,039
diverse forms of let's say
1048
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,960
unfree plantations small workshops
1049
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:44,399
domestic labor that are also found
1050
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,320
all throughout the last few centuries of
1051
00:31:44,399 --> 00:31:48,000
economic history
1052
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,440
um i've write about this in the
1053
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,480
introduction and i've said this in a few
1054
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,679
different articles that
1055
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,600
this conception i've just kind of
1056
00:31:51,679 --> 00:31:54,640
outlined is drawing upon a certain
1057
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,080
re-reading of
1058
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,000
marx's capital that has become kind of
1059
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,000
dominant from the 1970s onwards
1060
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,760
but by no means do i view it as a kind
1061
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,799
of closed model i think of it as a sort
1062
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,760
of open
1063
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:09,519
uh baseline or or a point of departure
1064
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,480
of analysis and by no means is this a
1065
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:11,919
consensus
1066
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,360
among marxist historians or marxist
1067
00:32:11,919 --> 00:32:14,320
theorists they disagree with each other
1068
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,919
all the time but
1069
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,399
this is the this is the conception that
1070
00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:19,840
i find very persuasive
1071
00:32:18,399 --> 00:32:21,760
so the implications what are the
1072
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,679
implications of this for china or for
1073
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,519
asian history more generally
1074
00:32:23,679 --> 00:32:28,320
well it means that capitalism cannot
1075
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:30,640
just be reduced to proletarianization
1076
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,000
it is it does depend upon market
1077
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,279
dependent labor but that can take many
1078
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,519
different forms
1079
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:37,600
uh in the earliest eras of capitalism
1080
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:39,120
we're gonna we we often see that
1081
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,200
capitalist labor was not free
1082
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,519
proletarian labor as in england
1083
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,840
it was you know unfree labor seasonal
1084
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:47,519
labor casual labor gender paternalistic
1085
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,399
patriarchally organized labor
1086
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:51,600
domestic labor labor indentured labor
1087
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:53,440
and so on
1088
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,960
so really the the opposite of the
1089
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,399
proletarian ideal type
1090
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,159
that is presupposed in a lot of these
1091
00:32:56,399 --> 00:33:00,799
models
1092
00:32:58,159 --> 00:33:02,640
um a lot of i've gained a lot of insight
1093
00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:04,559
by looking at the specific historic
1094
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,799
histograms of south asia where
1095
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:08,399
historians such as jairus banaji
1096
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,559
even depeche chakrabarty written in his
1097
00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:12,480
first book talk about these sort of
1098
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:14,880
abnormal labor types that fueled the
1099
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,399
rise of south asian capitalism
1100
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,840
in east asian history we have of course
1101
00:33:16,399 --> 00:33:19,760
you know the professor worker professor
1102
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,519
professor huang kenneth pomerantz
1103
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,279
kawaru sugihara talking about
1104
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:26,480
labor-intensive forms of
1105
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:27,919
capitalist production that give us a uh
1106
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,840
well altogether i think what all these
1107
00:33:27,919 --> 00:33:31,120
scholars are working towards
1108
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,960
even if they're coming from different
1109
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,760
perspectives is
1110
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,000
articulating the theoretical possibility
1111
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,840
for a non-eurocentric version
1112
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,399
of modern capitalist dynamics that again
1113
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,880
i think are increasingly relevant
1114
00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:46,159
in the 21st century and especially if
1115
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,640
you study the world beyond you know the
1116
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:50,640
north atlantic
1117
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,799
so what does this leave us in terms of
1118
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,480
writing this history of capitalism in
1119
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:57,200
in a place like china and india and the
1120
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,840
the history of the tea industries there
1121
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,120
the task then becomes writing a history
1122
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,399
of capitalism
1123
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:07,120
on peasant farms on tea plantations
1124
00:34:04,399 --> 00:34:08,399
without these recognizable signs of
1125
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,000
progress
1126
00:34:08,399 --> 00:34:12,159
the typical ones you find in economic
1127
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,240
history of mechanization
1128
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:15,760
of technological innovation these kind
1129
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:18,240
of charts of rising gdp
1130
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,000
over time those don't exist right in
1131
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:21,040
these stories that that i write about in
1132
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,320
this book
1133
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,079
so we have to get a little bit creative
1134
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,839
and look for other ways to
1135
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:28,159
write a history of these emerging social
1136
00:34:25,839 --> 00:34:29,440
dynamics without kind of being able to
1137
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,200
point to this very clear
1138
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,119
you know example of here's a here's a
1139
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,200
steam engine uh to prove that there was
1140
00:34:33,119 --> 00:34:36,879
capitalism right
1141
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,720
so as i mentioned earlier this is really
1142
00:34:36,879 --> 00:34:40,320
relying upon a combination of
1143
00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:42,079
social labor history looking at these
1144
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,760
social dynamics and practice
1145
00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:45,760
but also an intellectual conceptual
1146
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,200
history how do these dynamics give way
1147
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,440
to new concepts and
1148
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,960
new ways of thinking about the world by
1149
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,359
chinese thinkers indian thinkers and
1150
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,560
also british colonial thinkers
1151
00:34:53,359 --> 00:34:56,560
so let me briefly talk a little bit
1152
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,800
about how uh just like
1153
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,079
talk about a little bit about how this
1154
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,079
uh how this works
1155
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:03,599
uh with a few anecdotes from the book
1156
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:06,240
right
1157
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,280
so in terms of the labor process you
1158
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,280
know one of the
1159
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,560
sort of interesting anecdotes that i
1160
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,640
talk about is
1161
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,960
the way that tea production gets
1162
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,520
organized in these workshops
1163
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,280
in southern onwe province one of the
1164
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,520
major tea producing provinces uh tea
1165
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,760
producing areas in china
1166
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,520
now tea is grown on these small holder
1167
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,160
farms these private farms
1168
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,000
but every t season starting around april
1169
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,320
uh these seasonal workshops emerge
1170
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,240
and they kind of hire migrant labor uh
1171
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,599
that are probably just kind of part-time
1172
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,520
workers
1173
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:38,800
who they do own their own property but
1174
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,240
during t season
1175
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,839
they work in these workshops to earn
1176
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:44,400
some extra income right so they're not
1177
00:35:42,839 --> 00:35:46,400
proletarian uh
1178
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,440
in the classic sense but they do kind of
1179
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,280
emerge upon the
1180
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,640
converge upon these sort of william skin
1181
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,720
arrest market towns to work in these
1182
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,800
workshops
1183
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,920
um and the one thing i discovered was in
1184
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,000
these
1185
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,359
enway-based workshops right they have a
1186
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,359
very disciplined
1187
00:35:59,359 --> 00:36:02,880
work schedule where they're trying to
1188
00:36:01,359 --> 00:36:04,480
pump out as much tea as possible in a
1189
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,560
given amount of time
1190
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,160
to do so they use a specific kind of
1191
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,320
timekeeping device to monitor how
1192
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,079
productive every worker is
1193
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,920
the timekeeping device are incense
1194
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:15,119
sticks right sort of traditional incense
1195
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,079
sticks that are used for religious
1196
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:17,520
cultural
1197
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:20,079
purposes but i've increasingly
1198
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,680
discovered there are many industries
1199
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:23,359
in the chinese speaking world or in east
1200
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,800
asia that use incense sticks as kind of
1201
00:36:23,359 --> 00:36:27,920
time keeping devices
1202
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,800
for labor as well so they come up with
1203
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,119
these very
1204
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,079
precise instructions to make tea you
1205
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:33,760
have to roll it
1206
00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:35,839
you have to roast it you have to package
1207
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,599
it given you know half a stick of
1208
00:36:35,839 --> 00:36:39,040
incense or the time it takes to burn one
1209
00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:40,000
and a half sticks of incense and so
1210
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,920
forth
1211
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,480
um they use these incense sticks to
1212
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,480
create a reward system for you know
1213
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,920
rewarding people for working quicker
1214
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,520
than average punishing people for
1215
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,599
working slower than average
1216
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,640
very modern ways of using this this
1217
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:55,040
technology and
1218
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,839
the argument then is that this from a
1219
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,720
very
1220
00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:00,320
basic standpoint this the physical
1221
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:02,240
material qualities of this
1222
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,680
timekeeping technology is very primitive
1223
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:04,720
traditional pre-modern whatever you want
1224
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,480
to call it right
1225
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,560
but they're being used in very modern
1226
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,280
ways owing to the fact that they're now
1227
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:14,400
being plugged into these abstract
1228
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,480
global forces of competition and to me
1229
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,320
this is very emblematic of the way that
1230
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,079
capitalism the history of capitalism is
1231
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,000
animated by these examples
1232
00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:23,359
of incorporating so-called traditional
1233
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,280
pre-existing
1234
00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:27,040
technologies institutions class
1235
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,440
relations um
1236
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,520
but repurposing them towards this goal
1237
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,920
this very basic goal of accumulation
1238
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,280
um and and raising the productivity of
1239
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,880
human labor
1240
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,640
and part of this is also an argument
1241
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,440
against the sort of technological
1242
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,119
fetishism
1243
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,040
of so much economic history that
1244
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,640
capitalism can't be
1245
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,520
reduced to this or that particular
1246
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,160
technology because a lot of old
1247
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,040
technology
1248
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,400
and old stuff that just looks old and
1249
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,440
pre-modern could actually be used in
1250
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,560
very modern ways
1251
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,800
and that is i think very
1252
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,680
very a very resonant description for
1253
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,440
what i find
1254
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,240
in the in the tea plantations of china
1255
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,560
and india at this time
1256
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,839
so i won't get into what happened i've
1257
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,200
similar now uh and
1258
00:38:05,839 --> 00:38:08,960
similar stories for what's happening in
1259
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,240
india at this time some other stories
1260
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,240
in other parts of china but that's just
1261
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:13,920
to give you kind of one um
1262
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:16,000
taste of the kind of argument i'm making
1263
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,560
in terms of the social social
1264
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,760
history the other aspect of this is a
1265
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,720
history of concepts
1266
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,359
and i'll get to this picture in a moment
1267
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,760
um
1268
00:38:23,359 --> 00:38:26,480
but corresponding to the social history
1269
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,320
is a
1270
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,000
kind of a conceptual or intellectual
1271
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,400
history where i
1272
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,160
look at how how do these british
1273
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,680
officials in colonial india how do
1274
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,839
indian writers themselves bengali
1275
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,560
writers how do ching officials how do
1276
00:38:37,839 --> 00:38:40,079
chinese
1277
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,680
republican chinese officials and
1278
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:43,359
merchants how are they trying to make
1279
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,880
sense of the global tea trade and by
1280
00:38:43,359 --> 00:38:46,400
extension making sense of these
1281
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,160
massive transformations in the global
1282
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,079
economy
1283
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,680
um and why am i doing this how is this
1284
00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:52,720
part of a history of capitalism and this
1285
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,960
is a question that
1286
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,560
ben was also interested in discussing
1287
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,079
well again if
1288
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,680
one's conception of capitalism my
1289
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,520
conception of capitalism
1290
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,079
is that it cannot be reduced to simply
1291
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,280
tracking technologies and figures and
1292
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:07,599
numbers
1293
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,400
if it is actually this underlying social
1294
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:10,880
dynamic
1295
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,760
that encompasses these new practices
1296
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,520
then
1297
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,960
corresponding to those new practices are
1298
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,800
going to be new concepts
1299
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,720
new ways of thinking and talking and
1300
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,359
imagining the world
1301
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,880
right so the history of these new
1302
00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:24,640
concepts i'm not saying this history
1303
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000
the history of these concepts is the
1304
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,200
whole story that
1305
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,200
capitalism can be reduced to an
1306
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,640
intellectual history but i do think the
1307
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,000
emergence of these concepts and the fact
1308
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,200
that these concepts are resonant for
1309
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,720
chinese
1310
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,800
merchants and officials for how they
1311
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,839
make sense of the world that's a really
1312
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,680
useful data point
1313
00:39:37,839 --> 00:39:41,599
in tracing the emergence of these
1314
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,520
dynamics in china and in other parts of
1315
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:47,440
the world
1316
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,680
um so across british texts chinese texan
1317
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,839
bengali texts indian texts
1318
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,720
i traced the emergence of concepts they
1319
00:39:51,839 --> 00:39:54,720
really seem to have
1320
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:56,000
be having this kind of global
1321
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:57,680
conversation about classical
1322
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,960
political economy the tradition of adam
1323
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,480
smith and onwards but they're
1324
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,079
interpreting it in different ways given
1325
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,359
their specific context
1326
00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:07,200
uh in india and china and
1327
00:40:05,359 --> 00:40:08,880
the this history kind of plays two roles
1328
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,440
in my argument right
1329
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,560
the first is just to kind of index the
1330
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,880
fact that these
1331
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,480
chinese and indian thinkers uh they can
1332
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,560
make sense of these concepts
1333
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,480
that are coming from adam smith and
1334
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,720
david ricardo and you know london
1335
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,319
and england and can translate them to
1336
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:26,400
their own specific context
1337
00:40:24,319 --> 00:40:27,440
that is in itself kind of a significant
1338
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,319
historical
1339
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,280
phenomenon beyond that then the other
1340
00:40:30,319 --> 00:40:33,440
argument is that
1341
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,480
by tracing these intellectual concepts
1342
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,160
we can actually
1343
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,400
better understand different directions
1344
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,880
in the history of chinese uh political
1345
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,280
thought
1346
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,040
in indian indian political thought at
1347
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,040
the same time
1348
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,359
so in particular as far as the first one
1349
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,880
goes i'm tracing how
1350
00:40:47,359 --> 00:40:50,640
concepts of wealth and value and in
1351
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:54,079
particular concepts about labor
1352
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:56,160
begin to emerge in these discussions
1353
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:58,079
about
1354
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,520
how does the t trade work why is indiant
1355
00:40:58,079 --> 00:41:01,520
successful what does chinese tea need to
1356
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,839
do to become successful
1357
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,000
i trace the trace the fact that in these
1358
00:41:04,839 --> 00:41:07,599
indian uh
1359
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,200
in these in these in these texts written
1360
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,680
by british thinkers in india
1361
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,480
by these chinese qing thinkers in china
1362
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,960
they kind of
1363
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,240
are following a general path that has
1364
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,560
been laid out before them with
1365
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:19,680
classical political economy which is to
1366
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,240
um
1367
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,839
refute older theories about the economy
1368
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,200
that are based in agriculture
1369
00:41:23,839 --> 00:41:27,680
or refute earlier theories that are
1370
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,960
based in trade and to really emphasize
1371
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,480
new theories about
1372
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,480
economic wealth that are based upon
1373
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,280
labor itself and the argument is if
1374
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,040
the the plausibility of theories of
1375
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,359
economic theories premise upon
1376
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,319
labor corresponds to a society that
1377
00:41:39,359 --> 00:41:43,119
itself
1378
00:41:40,319 --> 00:41:44,480
has uh where labor itself has become
1379
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:45,359
generalized or where labor has become
1380
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,119
commodified
1381
00:41:45,359 --> 00:41:48,480
and available to be used in general
1382
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:50,480
fashion right so in a way that
1383
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,800
is a sort of indication that wage labor
1384
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,480
market dependent wage labor is actually
1385
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,240
something that is animating chinese and
1386
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,160
indian society at this point
1387
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:00,880
even if you don't have sort of the
1388
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,160
visible signs of proletarianization
1389
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,720
but beyond that i'm interested in
1390
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,440
tracing how these very abstract
1391
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:09,520
you know admittedly very cosmological
1392
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,280
ideas are being being translated
1393
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,880
and dealt with the nitty-gritty of these
1394
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,319
ideas are being dealt with by sort of
1395
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,240
mid-tier thinkers right
1396
00:42:14,319 --> 00:42:17,359
the sort of middling british officials
1397
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:19,040
who are trying to figure out what's
1398
00:42:17,359 --> 00:42:21,040
going on in the song by reading smith
1399
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,640
and edward wakefield and henry maine
1400
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,160
we have ching officials who are trying
1401
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,480
to figure out what's happening in
1402
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,400
jiangnan and the tea countries of china
1403
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,079
by reading adam smith and by reading jon
1404
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,839
stewart mill and translating it to the
1405
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,520
chinese context right so i think that's
1406
00:42:31,839 --> 00:42:36,000
that itself is an interesting
1407
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,920
intellectual exercise
1408
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,880
and the final aspect of this and i'll
1409
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,640
talk about this only briefly because
1410
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,480
i've talked for a long time
1411
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,400
is that if we actually understand and
1412
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,319
pursue this line of inquiry further
1413
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,560
then we can actually understand in my
1414
00:42:46,319 --> 00:42:50,400
view how
1415
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,839
the different directions that political
1416
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,720
thought takes in china in the 20th
1417
00:42:51,839 --> 00:42:56,000
century
1418
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:57,839
and the example i give is this figure
1419
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,079
in chinese in chinese political thought
1420
00:42:57,839 --> 00:43:02,480
known as the comprador right and this is
1421
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:04,160
an actual existing comprador uh in the
1422
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,079
at the late 19th century
1423
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,680
and the comparador we know like my
1424
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:09,359
button in mandarin right
1425
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,599
is the chinese merchant who works and
1426
00:43:09,359 --> 00:43:12,319
does business with european and american
1427
00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:14,000
firms
1428
00:43:12,319 --> 00:43:16,480
as far back as the 18th century with the
1429
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,480
canton trade but by the 20th century
1430
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,680
it kind of takes on a new meaning with
1431
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,960
socialism and
1432
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,720
communism by the 1950s during the years
1433
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,520
of the canton trade in the 18th century
1434
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,880
into the
1435
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,319
late 19th century with
1436
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,839
self-strengthening and the reform
1437
00:43:28,319 --> 00:43:32,720
movements in china
1438
00:43:29,839 --> 00:43:33,920
computers were actually seen as if they
1439
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,440
weren't praised they were at least seen
1440
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,960
as vanguards or visionaries of the
1441
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,160
treaty port economy they were not looked
1442
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,640
down upon
1443
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,400
that much right by the 20th century we
1444
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,319
know comprador becomes a dirty war it
1445
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,640
becomes demonized and scapegoated
1446
00:43:44,319 --> 00:43:48,079
for all the failures of chinese society
1447
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,960
they are seen as these emblems of
1448
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:52,240
feudalism
1449
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,480
right and the typical explanation
1450
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:56,400
for why comprador was seen so negatively
1451
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,400
during let's say the mao era
1452
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,400
was that this was just nationalism and
1453
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,400
anti-imperialism and propaganda by the
1454
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,000
communist party
1455
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,520
now that might be true to some extent
1456
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,440
but i also think it is this
1457
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,280
this view this kind of rapid shift from
1458
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,920
the comprador as a
1459
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,440
visionary in the 1890s a vanguard of
1460
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,839
capitalism in the 1890s
1461
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,640
to this demonized scapegoat by the 1920s
1462
00:44:15,839 --> 00:44:18,960
in china
1463
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,680
is so jarring and striking that it's
1464
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,440
worth
1465
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,119
figuring out what exactly happened in
1466
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,079
chinese political thought
1467
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:28,079
to see this massive reversal and i think
1468
00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:31,440
a lot of this comes from the fact that
1469
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:32,800
a political economic vision grounded in
1470
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,839
labor had become
1471
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,319
labor and production had become so had
1472
00:44:35,839 --> 00:44:38,960
gained such
1473
00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:40,880
consensus in chinese political thinking
1474
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,560
that we see the valorization of labor
1475
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,920
and in particular peasant labor event or
1476
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,359
industrial labor
1477
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,079
that and the flip side of that is the
1478
00:44:45,359 --> 00:44:50,960
demotion of commerce and finance
1479
00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:53,119
that are now seen as subsidiary and
1480
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,480
parasitic upon industry and that is a
1481
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:55,280
massive reversal
1482
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,560
right from the time of the
1483
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,839
self-strengthening movement which was
1484
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,200
all about trade
1485
00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:01,599
and in winning winning the sort of
1486
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,240
commercial warfare uh that son guanine
1487
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,160
talks about
1488
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:05,760
to the 20th century where it's about
1489
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,960
where trade is kind of demoted
1490
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,400
relative to industrial production so i
1491
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,640
think once you once you grasp
1492
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,000
that underlying inner inner
1493
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,240
transformation
1494
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,440
in political economic thinking in china
1495
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:18,640
then a lot of that has to do with
1496
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,760
competition a lot of it has to do with
1497
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,720
china's interactions with the rest of
1498
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,720
the world
1499
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,839
then they can they can it can help kind
1500
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:25,440
of shed light
1501
00:45:23,839 --> 00:45:26,960
um on a lot of things that are taken for
1502
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,319
granted in 20th century
1503
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,000
chinese economic thought okay so i'll
1504
00:45:30,319 --> 00:45:33,280
stop there let me just kind of to bring
1505
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,000
things back to the big picture right
1506
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,480
obviously
1507
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,079
some of the big takeaways or the big
1508
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,000
themes of the book is that
1509
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:42,319
it is challenging a lot of orientalists
1510
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,240
or eurocentric categories of analysis
1511
00:45:42,319 --> 00:45:45,440
both through a sort of social labor
1512
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:48,000
historical method
1513
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,520
but also historicizing those categories
1514
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,640
through a socially grounded intellectual
1515
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,760
history
1516
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,839
um hopefully this book can
1517
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,520
contribute let's say to uh to a kind of
1518
00:45:55,839 --> 00:45:59,520
conversation between
1519
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,960
asian chinese history and the the
1520
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,480
emergent history of capitalism field
1521
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,119
which i think should be global
1522
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,839
in nature um if not yet in practice
1523
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:07,599
right
1524
00:46:05,839 --> 00:46:09,599
um and i have a few other comments maybe
1525
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:10,560
about the temporal relevance of this of
1526
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:12,160
this book
1527
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,000
beyond the 19th and 20th century to
1528
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,599
think about also late 20th early 21st
1529
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,280
century that i've already briefly
1530
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:19,119
referenced right that that a lot of
1531
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,960
these concepts are really inspired by
1532
00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:23,040
what's happening in the world today or
1533
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,200
rethinking capitalism in light of what's
1534
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,440
happened in asia the last few decades um
1535
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,880
that's that's pretty clear i think and
1536
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,480
you know we could talk about it more
1537
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,160
in the q and a's but i think i'll just
1538
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,400
kind of leave it there for now
1539
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:43,839
so thanks for listening and staying with
1540
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:43,839
me from up until this point
1541
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:53,119
um i think maybe
1542
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:56,640
finn is still on mute
1543
00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:58,319
unmute excuse me i'm proving to be quite
1544
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,480
lame getting um
1545
00:46:58,319 --> 00:47:01,680
organized here i'm trying to get my
1546
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,920
video on as well
1547
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,920
all right here we go thank you very much
1548
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:10,480
andy that was a wonderful talk
1549
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:12,319
um and both the talk and the book
1550
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,839
as i assume many of you are not familiar
1551
00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:15,119
with the book i know some of you already
1552
00:47:13,839 --> 00:47:17,359
read it
1553
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:19,119
but it is an extremely demanding book
1554
00:47:17,359 --> 00:47:22,000
because of the range
1555
00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:22,480
of subjects it covers places it covers
1556
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,520
and
1557
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,079
aspirations that expresses for in my
1558
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,319
opinion
1559
00:47:26,079 --> 00:47:29,440
really linking economic history to a
1560
00:47:28,319 --> 00:47:35,599
kind of cultural and
1561
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:35,599
intellectual history that in some ways
1562
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:42,240
i would say is uh perhaps
1563
00:47:39,839 --> 00:47:43,280
almost the holy grail of what historians
1564
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,640
hope they're
1565
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:50,240
able to uh um find
1566
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:52,079
uh it it aspires it reaffirms
1567
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:53,520
aspirations to the nature of history
1568
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:55,599
that exist in
1569
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,880
in earlier periods of historiography
1570
00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:58,640
both in europe and for that matter in
1571
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,000
china in terms of conceptualizing what
1572
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,040
history can do
1573
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,640
and i had a tremendous challenge in
1574
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,200
thinking of what i wanted to raise about
1575
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,720
it
1576
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,640
in part i must confess because some of i
1577
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:11,520
recognize some of the topics both
1578
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,280
because
1579
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,920
i've worked on them and because i'm part
1580
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,960
of some of my work is very much part of
1581
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,079
this literature um it's a book that uses
1582
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,960
the term capitalism
1583
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:24,400
and the reason i think it's important
1584
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,200
that we discuss it
1585
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,559
is because this the concept of
1586
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,160
capitalism is what brought
1587
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,760
economic history back into history
1588
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,800
departments in my opinion
1589
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,160
it's crucial to get after the cultural
1590
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,079
turn that we were
1591
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,319
getting people who took the cultural
1592
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:43,599
turn embraced it
1593
00:48:40,319 --> 00:48:47,200
and have not uh have not
1594
00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:50,160
really lessened their grip on it to
1595
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,559
grapple with what capitalism is so the
1596
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:55,760
issue then of how cultural history
1597
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:57,599
and economic history share
1598
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,760
an agenda and how they're asking
1599
00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:01,680
different questions and trying to
1600
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,839
elucidate different features of what
1601
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,640
they see is important
1602
00:49:03,839 --> 00:49:07,119
is a very complicated task so i have to
1603
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,400
admit
1604
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:11,359
that on the one hand i cheer a lot of
1605
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,040
what
1606
00:49:11,359 --> 00:49:17,599
professor leo is doing attempting to
1607
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:20,240
achieve as well as what he has given us
1608
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:21,119
um in terms of his comparisons is an
1609
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:24,160
unfolding
1610
00:49:21,119 --> 00:49:24,720
and uncovering of the ways in which uh
1611
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,599
certainly
1612
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:29,200
certain actors and certain commentators
1613
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:31,760
both in china india
1614
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,640
british be they british chinese or
1615
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,800
indian
1616
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,040
were writing as they grappled at the
1617
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,359
moment with the changes they perceived
1618
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:41,359
and some of whom were actually engaged
1619
00:49:39,359 --> 00:49:43,119
in constructing and shaping the
1620
00:49:41,359 --> 00:49:44,720
direction of those changes
1621
00:49:43,119 --> 00:49:46,240
so with all that said i had to think how
1622
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:48,960
can i efficiently talk about
1623
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:51,599
what i see as some of the um how i
1624
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,440
placed this work historiographically
1625
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:55,520
why i've explained why i think it's
1626
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,800
important i also think it has some
1627
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,680
serious
1628
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:02,240
at least for me challenges uh that leave
1629
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:04,400
me feeling uh
1630
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:06,559
depending on the state of my health
1631
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:11,359
either deeply uncomfortable or just
1632
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:14,640
uh annoyed so let me begin
1633
00:50:11,359 --> 00:50:17,599
this is a work uh that is very much
1634
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,160
in a marxist historiographical context
1635
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:21,599
and that
1636
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:24,720
context very much like the non-marxist
1637
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:27,200
students of economic history is
1638
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:30,400
concerned as uh andy's comments
1639
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,559
indicated essentially with issues of
1640
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,119
process that has changed over time
1641
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:37,280
as well as with spatial scale and thus
1642
00:50:35,119 --> 00:50:38,640
especially with the issue of capitalism
1643
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,559
the issue of a system
1644
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,240
or the system of the notion of a
1645
00:50:40,559 --> 00:50:45,040
systemic scale
1646
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:45,760
of integration that is very much part of
1647
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,599
different
1648
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,040
accounts of how we understand 19th
1649
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:50,640
century history
1650
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,559
the relationship between the 19th
1651
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,920
century and earlier centuries
1652
00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:57,359
which is something that has been going
1653
00:50:53,920 --> 00:51:00,559
on among historians for the last
1654
00:50:57,359 --> 00:51:02,319
i'd say at least 20 or 30 years and
1655
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:05,280
which is part of the shift to
1656
00:51:02,319 --> 00:51:06,400
global history has been very much
1657
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,000
engaged in this
1658
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,960
issue of how we get from early modern
1659
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,960
democrat and the issue of capitalism is
1660
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,680
central to that question
1661
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,280
because capitalism as a concept begins
1662
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,440
in the marxist tradition
1663
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,880
with reference to europe and begins in
1664
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,480
the early modern period or
1665
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:27,359
it's it's it's initial moment
1666
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,160
and place of intense scrutiny and
1667
00:51:27,359 --> 00:51:30,000
importance
1668
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,200
intellectually is the early is early
1669
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,359
modern europe
1670
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,880
thus the issue of transition from early
1671
00:51:33,359 --> 00:51:37,839
modern to modern
1672
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,200
has been at stake firstly in european
1673
00:51:37,839 --> 00:51:41,280
history and then
1674
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,400
for the rest of us who don't do european
1675
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,720
history
1676
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,079
but who had to read all that stuff
1677
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:48,640
several decades ago
1678
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:49,599
it became something we cared about so i
1679
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,839
i tend to
1680
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:53,119
um be a little unhappy with andy's
1681
00:51:51,839 --> 00:51:55,920
characterization that
1682
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:57,440
that transition has not been studied by
1683
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,359
people in the china field
1684
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,480
because i thought that a number of us
1685
00:51:59,359 --> 00:52:02,880
had been uh
1686
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,079
engaging that for a long time i had
1687
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,839
initially thought i'd
1688
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:08,160
share some of that or remind you of some
1689
00:52:05,839 --> 00:52:12,400
of that or i'll just point you to the
1690
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:13,760
ahr forum 2002 where ken palmer and i
1691
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,640
each wrote articles
1692
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,400
introduced by pat manning who some of
1693
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,359
you may know is a distinguished
1694
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,960
well an african historian who uh went on
1695
00:52:21,359 --> 00:52:26,000
to become a global historian
1696
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:28,000
former president of uh the aha and with
1697
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,119
a comment by david ludden more relevant
1698
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,880
to what we're talking about
1699
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:32,160
david being a distinguished south asia
1700
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,000
historian actually
1701
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,440
um in andy's neighborhood in
1702
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,319
philadelphia uh
1703
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,680
in new york that axis but also then a
1704
00:52:38,319 --> 00:52:42,240
former president of
1705
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,240
aes so very distinguished people
1706
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,960
commented on papers that ken pomerance
1707
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:47,680
and i
1708
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,599
developed each of which was devoted to
1709
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,040
some understanding of these transitions
1710
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:53,200
i'm not going to rehearse what
1711
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,800
ken said or what i said what was
1712
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,280
distinctive about each of those essays
1713
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,440
or how they're connected and how the two
1714
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,280
people evaluate and look at them but
1715
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,920
there is a literature there is
1716
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,359
an engagement um that is one convenient
1717
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:05,839
place in which you can see it and the
1718
00:53:05,359 --> 00:53:08,800
book
1719
00:53:05,839 --> 00:53:10,240
makes a sweeping claim early on that we
1720
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,800
i won't quote it but we have
1721
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:14,720
that we haven't done that so i would say
1722
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,040
that certainly this book is an important
1723
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:20,240
contribution to that
1724
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:22,000
subject um that certainly is the first
1725
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:25,599
one of the first to take place
1726
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,280
under the influence simultaneously of
1727
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:29,040
a reading of the great divergence
1728
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,680
literature in a sense
1729
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,480
um with which i i find somewhat curious
1730
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,480
in some ways but
1731
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,240
with that literature and with this
1732
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,200
engagement with what is a new history of
1733
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,160
capitalism
1734
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,319
much of which in my opinion is uh made
1735
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,040
distinctive by it's the effort of many
1736
00:53:42,319 --> 00:53:46,480
of the people
1737
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,359
in that uh strand of scholarship to want
1738
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,000
to bring in
1739
00:53:47,359 --> 00:53:52,160
intellectual and cultural history and
1740
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,800
one of my concerns is a degree to which
1741
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,119
one of the things
1742
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,640
powering what is a kind of global
1743
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:59,040
intellectual history
1744
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,960
which is another product of um the
1745
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:05,359
mid-atlantic and northeastern
1746
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:07,280
part of our uh historical studies world
1747
00:54:05,359 --> 00:54:08,480
powered i should say by early modern
1748
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:11,359
europeanists
1749
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,760
uh distinguished people who have phds in
1750
00:54:11,359 --> 00:54:14,720
in
1751
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,920
european history and and even sometimes
1752
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:19,839
law degrees
1753
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:23,280
uh uh and uh with uh
1754
00:54:19,839 --> 00:54:25,599
impeccable ivy league uh credentials
1755
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,880
but the point is that that focus on
1756
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:29,920
global intellectual history is
1757
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:33,119
precisely on the migration
1758
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:35,200
of ideas that are born in europe
1759
00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:36,559
and looking at how they become important
1760
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,200
consequential globally
1761
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:40,480
those are real issues and we need
1762
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,200
studies of those
1763
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,680
the difficulties the degree to which
1764
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,440
this
1765
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:49,520
project is understood to be what we
1766
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,520
compl in complete terms need to
1767
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,920
understand the modern world because
1768
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,359
that's
1769
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,960
for me that simply rehearses exactly the
1770
00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:59,200
kind of problems that
1771
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,920
uh professor leo has noted about a
1772
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:04,559
eurocentric conceptualization
1773
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,240
which doesn't which talks then about
1774
00:55:04,559 --> 00:55:08,880
adaptation or
1775
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:10,559
recognizing context but what it doesn't
1776
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,319
do when it looks at other places which
1777
00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:12,960
is what was done first in economic
1778
00:55:12,319 --> 00:55:15,440
history
1779
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,720
which is why i'm so familiar with this
1780
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,640
topic
1781
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:20,559
is that it doesn't allow what is
1782
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,920
specific to the dynamics
1783
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:26,240
in east asia in this case conceptual
1784
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,079
that matter to understanding how we move
1785
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:31,280
forward from early modern to modern
1786
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:32,960
and as he as andy adam braded uh if we
1787
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,000
want to think about modern to
1788
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:37,839
contemporary i think still matter so i
1789
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,640
think i want to briefly try to comment
1790
00:55:37,839 --> 00:55:40,319
on that
1791
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,760
i'm going to skip a lot of other things
1792
00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:43,839
i wrote i was going to
1793
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,799
do a rather ponderous historiographical
1794
00:55:43,839 --> 00:55:47,440
review
1795
00:55:44,799 --> 00:55:49,280
of the distinction between developmental
1796
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,839
perspectives and systemic so i
1797
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,799
need to say a couple things about that
1798
00:55:51,839 --> 00:55:56,480
firstly
1799
00:55:52,799 --> 00:55:58,160
well before the new
1800
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,680
ironically because i'm not sure how many
1801
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:04,319
people have actually read these tomes
1802
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,920
but there are these uh as some of you
1803
00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:08,160
certainly historians should know
1804
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,760
there are these ponderous cambridge
1805
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,880
histories of
1806
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:14,480
and they can be of anything from islam
1807
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,480
uh most of them were originally from
1808
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,760
europe we have we have them for many
1809
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,440
subjects
1810
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,799
and i don't remember exactly what year
1811
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,680
it was commissioned
1812
00:56:20,799 --> 00:56:24,559
um but there is a cambridge history of
1813
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,119
capitalism
1814
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:29,839
and it is not part of this literature it
1815
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:31,280
came out in 2014 that part i remember
1816
00:56:29,839 --> 00:56:34,400
but i don't remember when we
1817
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:37,920
those of us who agreed to contribute
1818
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:39,839
um and the the times we met i
1819
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,599
i no longer control the exact chronology
1820
00:56:39,839 --> 00:56:43,760
but sometime in this century
1821
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:45,040
i think it was post 2000 this project
1822
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,359
got off the ground it was developed
1823
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,720
it has two volumes so very briefly this
1824
00:56:47,359 --> 00:56:51,119
is a history of capitalism and two
1825
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:55,119
editors are two distinguished economists
1826
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:58,559
larry larry neil uh who's worked on
1827
00:56:55,119 --> 00:57:00,240
english as well as early american um
1828
00:56:58,559 --> 00:57:01,760
is noted for his work on financial
1829
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:05,280
markets and
1830
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:08,720
um um why am i blocking on on um
1831
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:10,559
i can see his faces williamson yes yes
1832
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:13,200
jeff williamson jeffrey williamson
1833
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:14,960
it was one of our major um economists on
1834
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,000
19th century international trade
1835
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,520
especially any event
1836
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,280
those two gentlemen edited this
1837
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,480
following the first volume
1838
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:25,119
is really the history of what
1839
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,000
what neil thought of is sort of times
1840
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:29,200
and places when there were
1841
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,960
episodes of capitalism now i agreed to
1842
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,640
write in this volume and i said well
1843
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,319
but china doesn't have capitalism even
1844
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,920
if has a lot of what you think it has
1845
00:57:34,319 --> 00:57:38,720
it's not capitalism so
1846
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,000
we disagreed on definitions um i still
1847
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,160
wrote the chapter it's still
1848
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,680
the only thing that represents china so
1849
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,000
typical of these kind of
1850
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,599
exercises different parts of the world
1851
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,680
each get one chapter
1852
00:57:47,599 --> 00:57:51,280
and europe gets multiple chapters for
1853
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,400
multiple sub-regions for multiple
1854
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,200
periods of time
1855
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,640
and that's the nature of of the
1856
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,680
organization of history
1857
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,480
actually uh in academia in this uh in
1858
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,880
this country
1859
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,559
and in some ways we're much better than
1860
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,119
some of our european uh
1861
00:58:04,559 --> 00:58:08,640
confederates anyway volume one is about
1862
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:10,720
developments
1863
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,079
and then volume two is about system when
1864
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,319
you so
1865
00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,680
the first volume is ancient times to
1866
00:58:14,319 --> 00:58:17,599
1850
1867
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,839
and the second volume is 1850 to the
1868
00:58:17,599 --> 00:58:21,680
present so that 1850 of the present is
1869
00:58:19,839 --> 00:58:24,400
essentially the world
1870
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,079
with which professor leo is principally
1871
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,559
but not exclusive but principally
1872
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:30,799
focused upon
1873
00:58:27,559 --> 00:58:32,720
1854 and for that we have no development
1874
00:58:30,799 --> 00:58:34,960
we have a single system it's the
1875
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,720
system of capitalism and what i want to
1876
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,799
point out is that economists
1877
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,559
in general hate the term capitalism
1878
00:58:38,799 --> 00:58:42,799
because they don't know what it is
1879
00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:44,480
and andy also gave an indication of why
1880
00:58:42,799 --> 00:58:46,720
that is he noted that he didn't
1881
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,599
really grapple with defining himself
1882
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,200
until the
1883
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:50,319
first round of reviewers comments said
1884
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,599
it'd be a good idea if you're going to
1885
00:58:50,319 --> 00:58:52,480
use this concept to tell us what you
1886
00:58:51,599 --> 00:58:55,520
mean by it
1887
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:58,319
because we all know that capitalism
1888
00:58:55,520 --> 00:59:00,000
historiographically has had meanings as
1889
00:58:58,319 --> 00:59:02,160
narrows to say the only place to head
1890
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:05,680
capitalism was britain
1891
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:08,079
so the notion the capitalism is this
1892
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,880
global systemic system that embraces
1893
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:10,799
multiple
1894
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,400
parts with multiple features so any
1895
00:59:10,799 --> 00:59:14,720
event
1896
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,400
um and and thus there's no easy way to
1897
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,359
talk about what we mean by capitalism
1898
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,640
that's why i asked him
1899
00:59:17,359 --> 00:59:20,079
to make sure he addressed it and i
1900
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,880
thought he did a wonderful job of
1901
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:22,480
explaining
1902
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,400
how he understands the term how he uses
1903
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:27,200
it what i want to suggest however is the
1904
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:30,079
tension between system and development
1905
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:33,280
is present in many work and it works i
1906
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:36,160
would argue it is in this book as well
1907
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,640
in the following sense that largely we
1908
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,720
learn
1909
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,799
about china's incorporation into
1910
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,200
capitalism
1911
00:59:40,799 --> 00:59:44,559
and in fact for me um all of us have
1912
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,599
known this ever since emmanuel
1913
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:48,960
wallerstein's
1914
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:51,040
modern world system um
1915
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,799
approach well if we didn't know it
1916
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,200
before then or believe that before then
1917
00:59:52,799 --> 00:59:54,799
but
1918
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,599
for china in the 19th century we
1919
00:59:54,799 --> 00:59:59,440
certainly learned in wallerstein 1974
1920
00:59:57,599 --> 01:00:00,880
and the subsequent works in that series
1921
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:04,240
and the other things that man
1922
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:05,920
emmanuel wallerstein and and others um
1923
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:08,000
associated with his kind of theory
1924
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,200
presented now that's just one example i
1925
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,960
presented because this one out of the
1926
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:14,559
marxist tradition
1927
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:18,160
um but certainly we thought of uh
1928
01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:21,119
uh of china as being part of cap
1929
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,440
a capitalist system by the 19th century
1930
01:00:21,119 --> 01:00:23,839
uh
1931
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:26,319
for emmanuel it was uh well emmanuel
1932
01:00:23,839 --> 01:00:29,440
stein it was of the periphery
1933
01:00:26,319 --> 01:00:30,319
but we knew that kind of labor was in in
1934
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,119
capitalism
1935
01:00:30,319 --> 01:00:33,599
we knew it wasn't proletarian but when
1936
01:00:33,119 --> 01:00:36,000
philip
1937
01:00:33,599 --> 01:00:37,359
wong and others said china didn't have
1938
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,599
proletarian labor
1939
01:00:37,359 --> 01:00:41,119
they were interested in capitalism as a
1940
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:44,240
process of development
1941
01:00:41,119 --> 01:00:46,319
not the system within which it appears
1942
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,079
and thus um i'm not saying i agree with
1943
01:00:46,319 --> 01:00:50,400
either wallerstein or hwang on
1944
01:00:48,079 --> 01:00:52,400
all sorts of things but i'm noting that
1945
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:54,319
taxonomically they're they're
1946
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,559
they're focused on different features of
1947
01:00:54,319 --> 01:00:58,880
what they think capitalism is
1948
01:00:56,559 --> 01:01:00,960
and the point is capitalism is and i'm
1949
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:03,920
saying the cambridge history capitalism
1950
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,240
has one kind of capitalism for pre 1850
1951
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:09,040
and
1952
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:10,960
one other for post 1850. my complaint
1953
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,799
which interested readers will see in a
1954
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,200
or could see in a forthcoming article
1955
01:01:12,799 --> 01:01:14,559
and
1956
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,640
in a journal appropriately called
1957
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:18,480
capitalism semi
1958
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:21,040
no colon a journal of history and
1959
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:25,839
economics which is in part
1960
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:25,839
a new journal that comes out of pen um
1961
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:31,040
and the intent of which i mean
1962
01:01:29,359 --> 01:01:32,559
is in part inspired by the new history
1963
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,160
of capitalism but has
1964
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:38,160
um a solid representation of people who
1965
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,680
of different views it and thus i hope
1966
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,079
it's a journal that succeeds and that
1967
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,040
many
1968
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:43,760
people take seriously if they're
1969
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:47,920
interested in these topics anyway
1970
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:50,160
that problem of not being able to
1971
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:52,799
to follow developmental trajectories
1972
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:55,920
into the contemporary period
1973
01:01:52,799 --> 01:01:56,480
for which elements that are specific to
1974
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,799
a
1975
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,000
some place be it a world region be it a
1976
01:01:58,799 --> 01:02:02,799
country be it
1977
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,720
some other spatial unit i want to be
1978
01:02:02,799 --> 01:02:07,039
clear and careful that
1979
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,839
that can take on different scales so i'm
1980
01:02:07,039 --> 01:02:09,599
not
1981
01:02:07,839 --> 01:02:10,960
returning us to the tyranny of the
1982
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:14,240
national unit
1983
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,440
i would merely know that china in terms
1984
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,240
of demography and
1985
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:20,000
spatial scale and thus in challenges of
1986
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,319
both economy and government
1987
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:25,200
is the size of europe from the british
1988
01:02:22,319 --> 01:02:28,000
isles to the euros in russia
1989
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,440
and you know it's the han roman empire
1990
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,680
after which
1991
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,559
you know rome falls or you get the
1992
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,240
eastern
1993
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:36,160
roman empire byzantine and said i mean
1994
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,200
there's there's very different histories
1995
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,960
of china and europe
1996
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,920
that take them out of spatially
1997
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:45,039
comparable moments
1998
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:47,760
um more or less two millennia ago uh
1999
01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:49,520
give or take a few centuries where they
2000
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:52,720
each had 60 million people
2001
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,520
and similar territories today we have
2002
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,200
the eu
2003
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,760
and we have china and i would say
2004
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,920
finally we can compare china and europe
2005
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,599
uh more usefully and in fact that's part
2006
01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:04,400
of what my work
2007
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:05,680
has been doing since 2005. but leaving
2008
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:09,119
that issue aside
2009
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:11,200
of spatial scale let us simply say that
2010
01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:13,039
the issue for those of us who study
2011
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,880
china and for that matter i'd argue
2012
01:03:13,039 --> 01:03:15,359
those who study india and i don't know
2013
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:16,880
who
2014
01:03:15,359 --> 01:03:18,400
everyone else is other than those two
2015
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,160
constituencies i see
2016
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:22,319
many members of the forum and at least
2017
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:25,520
one of the latter uh in our
2018
01:03:22,319 --> 01:03:28,160
participant list the issue becomes
2019
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:30,079
what features from what periods of
2020
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:32,480
chinese or indian history do we think
2021
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:33,839
still matter for accounting what these
2022
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,839
places are today
2023
01:03:33,839 --> 01:03:37,039
in the contemporary capitalist world
2024
01:03:35,839 --> 01:03:39,039
which is where
2025
01:03:37,039 --> 01:03:41,039
andy was leading us towards in his
2026
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:44,559
comments so if i could just make
2027
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:47,839
one pitch for this in the book
2028
01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:51,039
andy claims that his
2029
01:03:47,839 --> 01:03:53,760
desire is to show that there is
2030
01:03:51,039 --> 01:03:54,559
a oh i i want to get the language
2031
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,640
exactly right
2032
01:03:54,559 --> 01:03:58,480
so i actually did write all kinds of
2033
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:02,079
notes i'm not looking at
2034
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:03,599
so if i can find it how do you do this
2035
01:04:02,079 --> 01:04:04,799
and you do this um
2036
01:04:03,599 --> 01:04:07,200
i just remember remember it's
2037
01:04:04,799 --> 01:04:08,400
qualitative convergence and quantitative
2038
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:11,359
diversions so
2039
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,720
yeah there's a there's a notion in other
2040
01:04:11,359 --> 01:04:15,359
words that what
2041
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,400
um ken was studying and with some of the
2042
01:04:15,359 --> 01:04:18,640
other
2043
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:20,640
what pomerantz was studying what others
2044
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:23,760
of us also have been engaged in
2045
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:25,680
um is noting well and to be clear
2046
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,359
well before the work of the 19th
2047
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:30,559
published in the 90s and
2048
01:04:27,359 --> 01:04:31,520
2000 and all that period economic
2049
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:34,640
histories have been
2050
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:37,359
always concerned with what
2051
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,319
are the causes for what made the rise of
2052
01:04:37,359 --> 01:04:39,920
europe and that
2053
01:04:38,319 --> 01:04:42,160
the economic part has actually been
2054
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,599
foundational to our larger set of
2055
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,520
understandings of what it was to become
2056
01:04:43,599 --> 01:04:47,359
modern sunday event this has been a
2057
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:51,280
durable and lasting subject
2058
01:04:47,359 --> 01:04:53,599
that is that has attracted and
2059
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,640
swallowed up several generations of
2060
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:57,039
scholars both in
2061
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:58,079
economics history and for that matter so
2062
01:04:57,039 --> 01:05:01,200
sociology
2063
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:03,599
and other related um social sciences but
2064
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,400
any uh uh swallowed up just consumed in
2065
01:05:03,599 --> 01:05:08,160
some senses
2066
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:11,200
uh intellectually at least um so
2067
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:13,680
the the larger point is that in the
2068
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:15,839
reaction that those of us who took
2069
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:18,799
in the 90s and 2000s to what we saw
2070
01:05:15,839 --> 01:05:22,079
about how the european eurocentric
2071
01:05:18,799 --> 01:05:23,440
image work i fear in a certain sense
2072
01:05:22,079 --> 01:05:25,440
what i'm saying is that the global
2073
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,200
intellectual history is reimposing a
2074
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,720
kind of
2075
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,920
western-centric notion of how we get
2076
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:33,119
globality which is
2077
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:34,559
to be profoundly problematic precisely
2078
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:36,960
because as
2079
01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:38,240
um professor leo has pointed out we know
2080
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,200
that in economic terms
2081
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,559
the path that china took like other east
2082
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:42,960
asian paths not that they were all the
2083
01:05:42,559 --> 01:05:44,240
same
2084
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,319
but there are differences there are
2085
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,280
variations and there have been different
2086
01:05:46,319 --> 01:05:50,400
accommodations
2087
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:52,400
made to account for this uh 20th century
2088
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:55,440
and 21st century experiences
2089
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:58,720
by both economists political scientists
2090
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,119
historians i guess some sociologists but
2091
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,400
there
2092
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:01,839
there are different literatures i'm not
2093
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,319
going to review those but i'm just going
2094
01:06:01,839 --> 01:06:05,359
to say
2095
01:06:02,319 --> 01:06:08,240
we do know this but the question
2096
01:06:05,359 --> 01:06:09,520
is when we turn to intellectual issues
2097
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,680
cultural issues
2098
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:14,160
the manner in which we can understand
2099
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:17,039
how those might still be consequential
2100
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:18,559
in my opinion are crucial and they are
2101
01:06:17,039 --> 01:06:22,400
the most difficult
2102
01:06:18,559 --> 01:06:23,839
which is why i try to dissuade uh
2103
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,280
i can recall at least one or two
2104
01:06:23,839 --> 01:06:26,559
students of mine who i've tried to
2105
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,319
dissuade from
2106
01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:30,240
tackling this kind of thing because it's
2107
01:06:28,319 --> 01:06:33,680
so demanding in terms of the
2108
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:35,039
intellectual um just the depth of
2109
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,680
erudition you need to be able to
2110
01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:37,839
distinguish
2111
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,720
what is new and what is old in other
2112
01:06:37,839 --> 01:06:40,960
words to do this
2113
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:43,200
properly you can't simply look for
2114
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:47,520
what's new
2115
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:51,680
you can't simply cherry pick what's new
2116
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:53,359
um i could be uh
2117
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:57,039
not playing for the home team and refer
2118
01:06:53,359 --> 01:06:59,839
to a someone who used to work at ucla
2119
01:06:57,039 --> 01:07:02,000
but i won't by name who did literature
2120
01:06:59,839 --> 01:07:03,760
and i it's very hard to identify the
2121
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,039
the subject without identifying the
2122
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,400
individual but maybe hopefully you
2123
01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:08,480
haven't read the book
2124
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,000
um if that's the case so but there are
2125
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,280
any number of examples i won't
2126
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,599
use that but there are any number of
2127
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,000
examples of people wanting to show
2128
01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:16,799
what's
2129
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,960
modern in in intellectual history as
2130
01:07:16,799 --> 01:07:21,280
well as what's in
2131
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:24,000
an economic history for that matter and
2132
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:26,240
they've focused simply on what
2133
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,480
uh in this case it was a collectania
2134
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,400
published in the republican era
2135
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,680
and it went through the taxonomy of
2136
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,559
categories of modern
2137
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,480
subjects that colectania had more
2138
01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:38,000
categories of traditional subjects
2139
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,920
and not a single one is mentioned in
2140
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,680
other words the taxonomy of what was
2141
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,839
being published
2142
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,039
was not simply modern things it was
2143
01:07:43,839 --> 01:07:47,440
modern and
2144
01:07:45,039 --> 01:07:48,319
not modern in the sense that the scholar
2145
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,839
was concerned
2146
01:07:48,319 --> 01:07:51,599
so he didn't even address the others he
2147
01:07:49,839 --> 01:07:53,599
just wanted to show what was modern
2148
01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:55,440
but if we want to recap if we want to
2149
01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:56,559
capture the intellectual context within
2150
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,720
which those
2151
01:07:56,559 --> 01:08:01,119
ideas circulated we also need to know
2152
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:03,760
what else was being circulated
2153
01:08:01,119 --> 01:08:04,400
so to bring this directly to the issues
2154
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,799
that
2155
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,720
actually are raised in the book in some
2156
01:08:06,799 --> 01:08:09,680
sense but only in the sense of wanting
2157
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,799
to show
2158
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:14,160
the change between early modern and
2159
01:08:12,799 --> 01:08:17,199
modern which as
2160
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:19,839
presidio said is one of his concerns
2161
01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:20,880
um there is a section in which there is
2162
01:08:19,839 --> 01:08:22,319
a
2163
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,640
you know for someone who works on 18th
2164
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:27,759
century political economy something of a
2165
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:29,839
rather limited and a summary statement
2166
01:08:27,759 --> 01:08:31,759
fair enough for what he's doing relying
2167
01:08:29,839 --> 01:08:34,000
on william rowe's very good book on
2168
01:08:31,759 --> 01:08:38,719
chiang mai
2169
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:41,920
he follows bill bill rowe in
2170
01:08:38,719 --> 01:08:43,279
he he he takes from row the assessment
2171
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,239
row makes which is a very strong
2172
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:48,000
assessment
2173
01:08:44,239 --> 01:08:51,199
that the chinese council concept of
2174
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,679
a people's livelihood is i what is it
2175
01:08:51,199 --> 01:08:54,239
what did
2176
01:08:51,679 --> 01:08:56,239
rose say something like it is i actually
2177
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:57,120
quoted it because andy quotes it in the
2178
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:59,199
book he may
2179
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,239
remember what it is i oh here it is
2180
01:08:59,199 --> 01:09:02,560
somewhere in here
2181
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:04,839
oh most basic and pervasive term in
2182
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:07,920
ching political discourse
2183
01:09:04,839 --> 01:09:11,359
well we don't hear about ninja
2184
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:14,719
after that um chapter but
2185
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:16,960
but just to use this and i'll close me
2186
01:09:14,719 --> 01:09:19,759
as as many of us know i'm sure andy of
2187
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,759
course knows as well
2188
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:25,359
three principles right nationalism
2189
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,640
democracy
2190
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:29,839
people's livelihood now people can
2191
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,920
pooh-pooh that sunni
2192
01:09:29,839 --> 01:09:33,839
sensibilis but the ideological vision of
2193
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,799
what he thought modernity was about for
2194
01:09:33,839 --> 01:09:37,199
china how to
2195
01:09:34,799 --> 01:09:38,640
achieve it how to be successful at it
2196
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:39,679
included the concept of people's
2197
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,640
livelihood
2198
01:09:39,679 --> 01:09:44,000
now people's livelihood is an awkward
2199
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,319
concept
2200
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:48,000
in western thought that is there's no
2201
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:51,440
close cognate for that we
2202
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:53,520
can describe it we can we can explain
2203
01:09:51,440 --> 01:09:54,960
what it means in western categories in
2204
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,800
terms of how
2205
01:09:54,960 --> 01:10:00,320
this became an issue but we can't really
2206
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:03,120
use
2207
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,480
you would never talk about um you know
2208
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:08,080
the british concept
2209
01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:10,400
um uh interpretation of you would never
2210
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,480
any things like that well it's not only
2211
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,280
in the 20th century
2212
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:17,040
um but i've been recently working one of
2213
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:20,159
my major areas has been on
2214
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:21,199
water governance and both historically
2215
01:10:20,159 --> 01:10:24,000
and today
2216
01:10:21,199 --> 01:10:24,880
uh it's an it's a ridiculously absurdly
2217
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,600
large
2218
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:29,040
project that i may never finish but it
2219
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:31,520
involves the eu and the us
2220
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:34,080
as well but anyway the on the chinese
2221
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,080
component
2222
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,920
china's effort to reform water
2223
01:10:36,239 --> 01:10:42,000
governance has as
2224
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:43,360
its crucial um reform document and for
2225
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,800
those who are familiar with
2226
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,719
uh and i know some people in the
2227
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:49,600
audience are with with
2228
01:10:46,719 --> 01:10:52,159
how uh prc politics is organized in
2229
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:53,440
terms of how the party
2230
01:10:52,159 --> 01:10:55,920
the party and the government
2231
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:57,760
administration together issue
2232
01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:00,080
uh the number one central document each
2233
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:02,800
year which is a key document
2234
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:06,080
of policy not merely for that year but
2235
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:08,159
it is to identify a policy direction
2236
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,280
uh the intent of which is to create
2237
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:13,600
durable change
2238
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:15,920
over time through a series of reforms
2239
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,960
that will be concretely spelled out in
2240
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:21,199
later
2241
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,520
um statements and are typically preceded
2242
01:11:21,199 --> 01:11:24,880
by
2243
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:27,679
any number of experiments and local
2244
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,560
uh efforts to to respond to certain
2245
01:11:27,679 --> 01:11:32,000
kinds of
2246
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:35,040
um smaller scale or related subjects
2247
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,080
that then get crystallized into a major
2248
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:38,239
agenda like
2249
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:40,640
like water became the previous years
2250
01:11:38,239 --> 01:11:43,840
have all been related to agriculture
2251
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:46,159
um the year after 2012
2252
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,120
was actually more directed towards as i
2253
01:11:46,159 --> 01:11:49,920
recall it was
2254
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:51,040
issues of energy environment but more
2255
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,040
air
2256
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:54,880
air pollution related than water issues
2257
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:58,640
anybody the 2011
2258
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:01,440
document gives us the basic policy line
2259
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:03,520
and when it gets to the issue of what
2260
01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:04,239
are the main principles motivating this
2261
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:08,159
approach
2262
01:12:04,239 --> 01:12:09,840
the first principle is minchang
2263
01:12:08,159 --> 01:12:11,360
the first principle that we're to
2264
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:13,840
understand
2265
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,760
leads the definition of policies on how
2266
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:18,320
water governance has to change
2267
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,239
has to do with people's livelihood now
2268
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:23,120
i'm not saying that minshang
2269
01:12:20,239 --> 01:12:24,640
is the same as the minchang you see in
2270
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:27,280
18th century text
2271
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:30,159
let alone the very different range of
2272
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:33,040
uses that you see in classical texts
2273
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:33,600
it it actually is it it has different
2274
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:36,000
meanings
2275
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:38,560
in in classical text that's not the
2276
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:41,600
point the point is that there is a
2277
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:45,199
concept durable enough to
2278
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:48,239
to move through history as are
2279
01:12:45,199 --> 01:12:50,960
as we know um many
2280
01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:52,320
european concepts um to the extent that
2281
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,600
political theory in an old-fashioned
2282
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,199
intellectual sense still exists in
2283
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:58,320
political science departments
2284
01:12:55,199 --> 01:13:00,239
you go back to plato and aristotle
2285
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:02,320
we actually now have a political
2286
01:13:00,239 --> 01:13:05,840
theorist trained at princeton
2287
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,840
um actually a lebanese
2288
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:11,120
who got her advisors at princeton to
2289
01:13:09,199 --> 01:13:13,520
allow her to study
2290
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:15,280
um what she thinks of his confucian
2291
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,760
political thought
2292
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,040
as the political theorist who learned
2293
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,880
enough chinese
2294
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:22,400
classical chinese at least to read text
2295
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,400
but to rely mainly on
2296
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,920
translations but at least i i feel has
2297
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:29,040
some at least
2298
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:31,600
initial sense of of of some of the logic
2299
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:34,560
within which classical chinese texts are
2300
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:37,760
of this sort are presented any event um
2301
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:39,520
but typically we don't consider china's
2302
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,120
classical political theory as political
2303
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,840
theory uh
2304
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:46,000
i could go on with anecdotes about what
2305
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:49,280
i've experienced in my career
2306
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:51,199
raising naive questions of people and
2307
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,800
philosophy about chinese philosophy and
2308
01:13:51,199 --> 01:13:54,960
being surprised being told they were
2309
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:57,280
surprised there was chinese philosophy
2310
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:58,560
this is the english analytic tradition
2311
01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:01,520
speaking anyway
2312
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,840
leaving all those kind of weird queries
2313
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,679
or
2314
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:07,600
exchanges aside the point is
2315
01:14:05,679 --> 01:14:09,520
we there are concepts in chinese as
2316
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:12,480
there are in european tradition
2317
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,960
which are durable enough to trans to to
2318
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:16,080
move
2319
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,920
through time and the key is that
2320
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,920
the european concepts also move through
2321
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,400
space that's the global
2322
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,679
one element of which is the globally con
2323
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,159
intellectual history we're talking about
2324
01:14:23,679 --> 01:14:26,560
now
2325
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:27,520
but for us who study china or for that
2326
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:30,159
matter i wonder
2327
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,040
india this is an open question but we
2328
01:14:30,159 --> 01:14:34,880
need to understand
2329
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:37,360
how certain consequential concepts exist
2330
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:38,000
let us minimally say uh certainly
2331
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:40,000
visible
2332
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,280
through activism in the 18th century and
2333
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,880
i think bill rose book
2334
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:47,040
helps us see in some of those for sure
2335
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,920
but also from that separate cluster of
2336
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:51,360
concepts
2337
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:53,840
um which uh professor leo also looks at
2338
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:57,280
from the late 19th century which is also
2339
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:58,960
a major field of study for
2340
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,040
china historians for many years
2341
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:04,640
including intellectual historians
2342
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:06,239
um and think of ben schwartz's uh
2343
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,480
insertion of wealth and power
2344
01:15:06,239 --> 01:15:09,600
his understanding of yen food's
2345
01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:12,560
understanding
2346
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:14,239
of people like mill and smith uh which
2347
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,600
and schwartz's account has been
2348
01:15:14,239 --> 01:15:18,800
subsequently criticized
2349
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:22,080
but he did get right that that ian
2350
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:24,000
was younger was really uh looking
2351
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:26,880
considering the issue of wealth and
2352
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:29,199
power wealth and power are nothing but
2353
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:32,159
key concepts that go back to early
2354
01:15:29,199 --> 01:15:34,880
modern european notions of mercantilism
2355
01:15:32,159 --> 01:15:37,040
and and how to power that theme in
2356
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:39,040
european history and then how
2357
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:40,719
chinese history and late 19th century
2358
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:43,120
are animated by it
2359
01:15:40,719 --> 01:15:45,199
are crucial to under those themes come
2360
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:47,280
forward of the present as well
2361
01:15:45,199 --> 01:15:48,960
and that's why you see you could still
2362
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,880
see um you know
2363
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,000
on what do you call them the benches
2364
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,080
along the streets
2365
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,120
in chinese cities at least i remember
2366
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:57,040
seeing in shanghai
2367
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,960
within the last few years there's still
2368
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:02,640
some slogan about fujian
2369
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:04,080
that is you know uh part of the current
2370
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,719
discourse now i'm not saying that's the
2371
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,040
same
2372
01:16:04,719 --> 01:16:09,120
wealth and power that was intended in
2373
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:11,840
late 19th century
2374
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:13,360
but i am saying there is some resonant
2375
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:15,920
set of ideas
2376
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,640
that matters actually to policy makers
2377
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,719
today
2378
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:19,840
so what does this get us it gets us that
2379
01:16:18,719 --> 01:16:23,120
understanding
2380
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:25,120
the nature of global capitalism and
2381
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,960
china's role in it today
2382
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:29,040
depends not only understanding how it
2383
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,560
has embraced things from abroad be these
2384
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:33,600
foreign technologies
2385
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:36,320
or foreign ideas but how those are
2386
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:38,400
concretely connected to
2387
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,440
and sometimes even framed by
2388
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:42,560
understandings
2389
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:43,760
that are that oh much to an evolution
2390
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:48,320
that occurs
2391
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:51,040
more within a tradition than now um uh
2392
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:52,800
one very distinguished uh and i say is
2393
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,120
distinguished i've read them
2394
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,719
and now i can't remember who i'm talking
2395
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:58,239
about this is not a good sign
2396
01:16:56,719 --> 01:16:59,840
but it means i've been talking too long
2397
01:16:58,239 --> 01:17:01,199
so i'll stop very shortly because i have
2398
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:02,000
to manage time and i apologize it's
2399
01:17:01,199 --> 01:17:05,040
getting late
2400
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:08,400
but he talks about uh inheritance
2401
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:10,320
inheritance within rupture and what he
2402
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:11,679
means by that is simply that there are
2403
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:14,159
things that carry forward
2404
01:17:11,679 --> 01:17:15,600
even though we see corruption i'll leave
2405
01:17:14,159 --> 01:17:16,960
aside
2406
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,239
the other features of economic history
2407
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:19,120
and things because i've gone on too long
2408
01:17:18,239 --> 01:17:23,040
but i hope that
2409
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:26,000
at least presents one form of of um
2410
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:28,000
contextualization for this talk uh with
2411
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:30,880
apologies for going too long
2412
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:32,000
i'm going to ask um andy if you would
2413
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,159
please take
2414
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:35,199
um i think we have time for at least
2415
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:38,560
three
2416
01:17:35,199 --> 01:17:40,239
um yeah for sure uh questions uh the
2417
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:44,480
first is act and this is good
2418
01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:47,920
uh we have um one on
2419
01:17:44,480 --> 01:17:51,440
china one on india one on china india
2420
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:54,640
others are coming in um and
2421
01:17:51,440 --> 01:17:56,320
uh a fourth is coming as well so quickly
2422
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,800
i'm just going to take these in order
2423
01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:01,760
the first one andy is i am curious about
2424
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:02,560
asami's texts from assam during this
2425
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,120
time
2426
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:07,600
uh perceiving the tea industry
2427
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:10,080
especially since you have a rap
2428
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,440
expansion in the 19th century of another
2429
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:16,000
exporting industry
2430
01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:16,000
in assam namely crude oil
2431
01:18:16,719 --> 01:18:20,640
um so sorry could you could you say that
2432
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:22,640
again
2433
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:24,560
well i'm going to interpret what i
2434
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:27,040
understand given that assam in that
2435
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:28,080
period is especially visible because
2436
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:31,120
it's exporting
2437
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:34,400
in the global markets for exporting oil
2438
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:35,679
how does the view of the tea industry
2439
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:38,640
relate to
2440
01:18:35,679 --> 01:18:40,800
the fact that assam's becoming uh
2441
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:43,040
developing this export industry
2442
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,840
in oil which of course is a new industry
2443
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,040
i think that
2444
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:47,280
i hope that's the meaning of the
2445
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:50,400
question and if it's not i trust the
2446
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:53,360
person asking will ask me to rephrase
2447
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:55,040
i'm not i mean so some is that oil is
2448
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:57,199
like a major
2449
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,960
sector of the economy and that assam has
2450
01:18:57,199 --> 01:19:01,600
always been seen as a reservoir
2451
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:04,480
of raw materials first in tea now oil
2452
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:06,400
historically speaking i don't think oil
2453
01:19:04,480 --> 01:19:08,560
happens yet i mean i go through the
2454
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:10,080
1920s maybe it has but
2455
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:11,920
in my sources i don't think i read very
2456
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:14,560
much about it um
2457
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:16,239
really tea is kind of the predominant
2458
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,920
maybe some coal is the predominant
2459
01:19:16,239 --> 01:19:20,880
industry at the time
2460
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:22,000
um so yeah i didn't see i didn't see
2461
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:23,280
historically speaking
2462
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,120
i didn't see too much about it maybe in
2463
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,320
the later 20th century it would come up
2464
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:29,760
more
2465
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:30,239
okay let me go on to another question
2466
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:33,040
because
2467
01:19:30,239 --> 01:19:34,080
i apologize i i went on at such language
2468
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,480
um the next
2469
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,120
the next question is is could you
2470
01:19:36,480 --> 01:19:38,320
explain
2471
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:40,719
what is the connection between
2472
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:43,280
capitalism and industrialization
2473
01:19:40,719 --> 01:19:44,480
in 19th century asia that is in india
2474
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,560
and china
2475
01:19:44,480 --> 01:19:49,280
when in other words did china and india
2476
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:51,120
actually start their industrializations
2477
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:52,719
yes i'm assuming their question is about
2478
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,840
like mechanization right capital
2479
01:19:52,719 --> 01:19:57,360
intensive
2480
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:59,600
um industry so the the the again the
2481
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:01,440
the way i'm thinking about capitalism as
2482
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:04,960
a social dynamic is that
2483
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:07,600
at some point uh the
2484
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,440
the uh demand to increase the
2485
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,159
productivity of human labor becomes a
2486
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:13,199
sort of
2487
01:20:10,159 --> 01:20:16,159
all-encompassing thing that that that
2488
01:20:13,199 --> 01:20:17,120
um that connects people and
2489
01:20:16,159 --> 01:20:19,120
mechanization is
2490
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,960
one obvious solution that that i think
2491
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,480
it explains why
2492
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,760
mechanization is a solution that people
2493
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:25,520
arrive at but then this question of like
2494
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,280
why do some places mechanize
2495
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:29,280
versus others is obviously like the the
2496
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:30,719
big you know one of those big questions
2497
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,480
that i've animated for a long time so i
2498
01:20:30,719 --> 01:20:33,840
could just say like in the specific case
2499
01:20:32,480 --> 01:20:35,199
of
2500
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,520
the t industry and i think this is true
2501
01:20:35,199 --> 01:20:41,040
of a lot of other industries at the time
2502
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:43,040
it is we see this process where in china
2503
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:44,320
they are trying to squeeze as much
2504
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:45,840
productivity as possible through
2505
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:47,040
labor-intensive methods and that's kind
2506
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,520
of what i'm tracing
2507
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:51,120
with this tv these tea workshops right
2508
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:54,239
and then they kind of fall behind
2509
01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:56,000
and they are feeling the consequences
2510
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:58,320
of not being as productive as their
2511
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:58,560
competitors so in that sense that that
2512
01:20:58,320 --> 01:20:59,920
is
2513
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,960
that is to show kind of what you were
2514
01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:02,800
saying been that they are part of the
2515
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:04,159
system that they can't escape the system
2516
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,960
that there's consequences
2517
01:21:04,159 --> 01:21:07,520
to not keeping up uh but and so rather
2518
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:08,960
than saying that
2519
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,880
this proves they are not capitalist in
2520
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:12,560
the sort of developmental sense
2521
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:13,760
um this actually proves that they are
2522
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:15,040
part of a system they feel the
2523
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:17,520
consequences of it
2524
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:19,199
and as a result of those consequences
2525
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:22,000
you do have this sort of
2526
01:21:19,199 --> 01:21:22,560
emergence of republican era reformers
2527
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,880
who
2528
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,679
i think are despite the sort of like
2529
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,920
state
2530
01:21:25,679 --> 01:21:29,120
non-state split you have in economics i
2531
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,080
think it's the reformers to kind of play
2532
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:31,600
the role of the
2533
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:33,280
industrial i mean they work with the
2534
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:35,360
industrialists right they uh in the
2535
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:37,679
1920s and 30s and this is like the
2536
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:39,679
um kind of tradition from the republican
2537
01:21:37,679 --> 01:21:41,360
period into the communist period
2538
01:21:39,679 --> 01:21:43,679
in china and in taiwan that there's a
2539
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:45,920
sort of state industrialist partnership
2540
01:21:43,679 --> 01:21:46,880
that happens and just because they're
2541
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:48,800
the government doesn't mean that they're
2542
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,960
not also industrialists i think
2543
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:52,880
the i think so rather than saying
2544
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:54,719
industrialism only begins when
2545
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:56,880
you have these sort of 1930s 40s efforts
2546
01:21:54,719 --> 01:21:58,080
to mechanize industries like tea and
2547
01:21:56,880 --> 01:22:00,480
silk and cotton
2548
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,840
rather than saying that that's when it
2549
01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:02,560
begins i think you can date it back
2550
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,719
further
2551
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:06,080
it's it it begins with when they begin
2552
01:22:04,719 --> 01:22:06,960
to feel the pressures of international
2553
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,520
competition
2554
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:11,360
that kind of sets the process in motion
2555
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:12,880
that culminates with
2556
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,320
the sort of mid-20th century efforts
2557
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:15,600
that's kind of how i began to
2558
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:17,199
conceptualize this um
2559
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:19,120
as i was as i was thinking about these
2560
01:22:17,199 --> 01:22:21,840
questions
2561
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:22,560
all right um i we have two more
2562
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,239
questions
2563
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:26,960
both of which i think are very important
2564
01:22:24,239 --> 01:22:27,679
the first is i was wondering if presidio
2565
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,840
could
2566
01:22:27,679 --> 01:22:31,679
talk more about how and why the finance
2567
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:33,600
sector and the compradors
2568
01:22:31,679 --> 01:22:36,320
became looked down upon by chinese
2569
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:38,639
thinkers since the 1920s
2570
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,920
yeah right so good that's that's a whole
2571
01:22:38,639 --> 01:22:40,639
chapter so you could you could check it
2572
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,800
out the chapter
2573
01:22:40,639 --> 01:22:44,320
that and the argument i make i kind of
2574
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:45,360
briefly referred to this at the end was
2575
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:46,880
that
2576
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:48,400
the as far as i could tell within
2577
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,639
literature people have kind of assumed
2578
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:51,040
that the anti-compradorial thought of
2579
01:22:50,639 --> 01:22:53,199
like
2580
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:54,719
the mao period was really this product
2581
01:22:53,199 --> 01:22:58,159
of 1940s communist
2582
01:22:54,719 --> 01:23:00,639
party ideology it was about
2583
01:22:58,159 --> 01:23:02,000
nationalism it was about calling them
2584
01:23:00,639 --> 01:23:02,960
traitors for collaborating with
2585
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,239
foreigners
2586
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:06,400
and that's certainly part of it but i
2587
01:23:04,239 --> 01:23:08,800
think the deeper transformation is
2588
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:10,400
the 19 teens and 20s you have this
2589
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:12,080
rethinking of economics or at least at
2590
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,520
the mainstream elite level
2591
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:15,600
where as i mentioned before through the
2592
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,800
late 19 19th century it's very
2593
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,960
mercantilist as
2594
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,639
bin was talking about with yam foo and
2595
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:22,159
people like zen guanine who are
2596
01:23:20,639 --> 01:23:23,920
very much concerned with trade and
2597
01:23:22,159 --> 01:23:25,040
winning these trade wars
2598
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,040
and they're beginning to think about
2599
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:28,960
production but it's not really central
2600
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:31,040
to their way of thinking
2601
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:32,320
by the time of the 20s you begin to see
2602
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:34,960
chinese thinkers who
2603
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:36,800
foreground in order for china to become
2604
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:38,960
strong and to fight off the imperialists
2605
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,880
we need to revolutionize production
2606
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:42,560
itself and once production is kind of
2607
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:44,719
placed into the center
2608
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:46,400
of one's economic vision then finance
2609
01:23:44,719 --> 01:23:47,840
and commerce
2610
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,679
they are no longer seen as a sort of
2611
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:51,040
protagonist of the economy they're kind
2612
01:23:49,679 --> 01:23:53,440
of seen as parasites
2613
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:54,880
who who are sort of as a secondary
2614
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:57,360
effect are
2615
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:58,800
creaming profits off of the productive
2616
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:02,080
sectors which is
2617
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:04,880
labor and industrialization right so
2618
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:06,239
um in a broad sense i think what's
2619
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,360
interesting is you know the comparators
2620
01:24:06,239 --> 01:24:08,960
the financial sector they're kind of
2621
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:11,679
just doing the same thing
2622
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:12,960
for 30 or 40 years um so which what has
2623
01:24:11,679 --> 01:24:16,480
transformed is not so much
2624
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:18,159
what they're doing what transforms is
2625
01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:20,000
how does mainstream economic thought in
2626
01:24:18,159 --> 01:24:22,080
china view them
2627
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,600
except like how has mainstream economic
2628
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:25,040
thought itself changed
2629
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:26,719
over those 30 40 years so i thought that
2630
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:28,000
was what i was trying to argue is we can
2631
01:24:26,719 --> 01:24:29,120
use this to kind of index a
2632
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:32,080
transformation
2633
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:33,040
a sort of consciousness among at least
2634
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:35,440
the sort of elite
2635
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:36,960
economic uh thinkers within china at
2636
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:38,639
this at this sort of early 20th century
2637
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,920
period
2638
01:24:38,639 --> 01:24:45,199
and our last question um
2639
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:48,880
is very serious and also uh
2640
01:24:45,199 --> 01:24:50,560
pays you a great tribute um by a very
2641
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,320
senior historian
2642
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:54,480
the question is your admirable book
2643
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:56,480
foregrounds a concept of labor intensity
2644
01:24:54,480 --> 01:24:58,400
of capital accumulation derived from the
2645
01:24:56,480 --> 01:25:00,000
classical marxian analysis
2646
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:02,000
but it also resonates with the well
2647
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,760
arstinian concept of capitalism as a
2648
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:06,159
process of spatial integration
2649
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:07,840
into the modern world system how would
2650
01:25:06,159 --> 01:25:10,000
you situate your work
2651
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,760
relative to where stein's analysis and
2652
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,480
his depiction of a global division of
2653
01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:15,679
labor
2654
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:17,120
and the perfect subordination to it yeah
2655
01:25:15,679 --> 01:25:18,960
so yeah so thanks for bringing this up
2656
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:20,800
because this is also i think that's
2657
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:22,320
one of the things i was thinking when
2658
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,560
you were speaking which is
2659
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:26,000
uh so yeah i mean thanks thanks for the
2660
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,679
compliment and thanks for recognizing
2661
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,440
that strand of thought and actually my
2662
01:25:27,679 --> 01:25:30,080
advisor columbia was was the late adam
2663
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:31,520
mccune
2664
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:33,440
i didn't work with maddie but also on
2665
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:34,400
the queue and adam was very much a
2666
01:25:33,440 --> 01:25:37,520
wallace indian
2667
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:39,440
yeah yeah and um adam
2668
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:41,199
but i've actually gotten questions about
2669
01:25:39,440 --> 01:25:42,560
why don't i talk about wallerstein more
2670
01:25:41,199 --> 01:25:44,560
and it might be because adam was such a
2671
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:45,600
wall of stadium that i just kind of
2672
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:46,880
you know as you as you do with your
2673
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,239
advisor you don't want to necessarily
2674
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:48,880
talk about what your advisor likes you
2675
01:25:48,239 --> 01:25:51,440
know
2676
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:53,040
and um but i do i mean i think at a
2677
01:25:51,440 --> 01:25:53,360
conceptual level there are similarities
2678
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:54,719
and i
2679
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:56,800
really actually came to appreciate
2680
01:25:54,719 --> 01:25:59,360
wallerstein after i
2681
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,719
let's finish the doctorate um but i
2682
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,639
think there are some differences and i
2683
01:26:00,719 --> 01:26:04,800
think the basic one is that
2684
01:26:02,639 --> 01:26:06,480
um as as bin was saying you know
2685
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,719
wallerstein's conception is
2686
01:26:06,480 --> 01:26:11,199
as as the 19th and 20th century goes
2687
01:26:08,719 --> 01:26:12,400
along the periphery joins the european
2688
01:26:11,199 --> 01:26:13,440
world system
2689
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:15,040
and the way i was kind of
2690
01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:17,360
conceptualizing and i think i say this
2691
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:19,120
explicitly in the book at one point
2692
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,800
as these ideas get to your intellectual
2693
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:22,480
history question as these ideas
2694
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:24,719
begin to get translated and played
2695
01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:26,480
around with in china and india
2696
01:26:24,719 --> 01:26:28,159
it's not that po that china is becoming
2697
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:30,159
more western in my view it's more that
2698
01:26:28,159 --> 01:26:32,080
political economy itself is getting less
2699
01:26:30,159 --> 01:26:33,679
eurocentric and it's becoming
2700
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:35,679
i don't want to say it's more asified or
2701
01:26:33,679 --> 01:26:36,239
more sinusized but it is becoming much
2702
01:26:35,679 --> 01:26:38,719
more
2703
01:26:36,239 --> 01:26:40,639
much less tethered to its origin let's
2704
01:26:38,719 --> 01:26:42,560
say in you know 18th century scotland
2705
01:26:40,639 --> 01:26:43,840
and it's becoming this global language
2706
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:44,719
uh now you can talk about is it
2707
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,560
ultimately still
2708
01:26:44,719 --> 01:26:48,159
an imperialist project if it's european
2709
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:50,159
in origin and so on
2710
01:26:48,159 --> 01:26:52,000
but i think if we take seriously this
2711
01:26:50,159 --> 01:26:52,560
idea that these ideas resonate because
2712
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:55,520
of
2713
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:57,040
the material they resonate materially
2714
01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:58,400
before they resonate intellectually
2715
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,600
which is kind of my
2716
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:01,360
viewpoint that i think we don't
2717
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:02,880
necessarily have to make that to say
2718
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,239
like well china's eurocentric because
2719
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,920
they're using adam smith right it's just
2720
01:27:04,239 --> 01:27:07,040
that adam smith itself
2721
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:09,120
parts of adam smith were kind of
2722
01:27:07,040 --> 01:27:10,880
speaking to a sort of universal language
2723
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:14,080
of how capitalism would function in
2724
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:15,760
other parts of the world um so so that's
2725
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:17,280
on one basic level in terms of
2726
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,800
obviously i'm not a big fan of
2727
01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:20,880
wallerstein's kind of
2728
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:22,800
latent urocentrism and the other aspect
2729
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,560
i would say is wallstream does do a i
2730
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:26,960
think a good job of
2731
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:28,560
emphasizing that also his is ultimately
2732
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:30,000
a world market conception
2733
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:33,199
that does pay attention to different
2734
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:34,800
labor forms um but i don't think he
2735
01:27:33,199 --> 01:27:36,560
i think labor is too much of a secondary
2736
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,320
concern for him i think he's very good
2737
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:39,840
at recognizing you know you have slavery
2738
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:42,159
and peasant labor that
2739
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:43,920
um are compatible with capitalism but i
2740
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:45,280
think he doesn't take seriously that
2741
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,120
in a situation like indian indiant
2742
01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:49,520
versus chinese tea we have
2743
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:51,600
processes that are being powered by
2744
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,639
non-proletarian non-classical
2745
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,239
forms of labor and they're in
2746
01:27:52,639 --> 01:27:55,280
competition with each other and in this
2747
01:27:54,239 --> 01:27:56,639
particular case
2748
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:58,080
they are the protagonists they're the
2749
01:27:56,639 --> 01:27:59,280
ones driving for this story and we have
2750
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:02,560
to take seriously
2751
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:04,400
that sort of um that tension that is
2752
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,600
that is produced with competition as
2753
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:06,960
opposed to sort of
2754
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:09,040
you know his his depiction is almost a
2755
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:11,520
sort of almost too smooth
2756
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,960
peaceful world system without all this
2757
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,719
sort of ruptures and breaks and
2758
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:16,239
trends and sort of constantly shifting
2759
01:28:14,719 --> 01:28:18,400
units to analysis
2760
01:28:16,239 --> 01:28:19,280
um within the world system but um you
2761
01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:20,400
know i don't i don't
2762
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:21,920
i like while they're saying a lot i
2763
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:22,800
think he was very good i just think you
2764
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:26,000
know we could
2765
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:29,120
use him to build and create more complex
2766
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:31,199
um complex complex and particular
2767
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:34,480
histories
2768
01:28:31,199 --> 01:28:35,600
i believe uh it's 5 31. i think we're
2769
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:39,440
supposed to
2770
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:39,840
someone one of the um uh leaders at ccs
2771
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:42,080
can
2772
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:43,920
uh tell me if i'm are we do we go an
2773
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,520
hour and a half or do we go i is it an
2774
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,400
hour and a half andy what were we told i
2775
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,719
should remember
2776
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:49,920
i was told 90 minutes but yeah that's
2777
01:28:48,719 --> 01:28:51,920
what i thought so i wanted
2778
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:52,960
i i didn't want to cut you off and i
2779
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:56,000
certainly have anything
2780
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:58,719
i would say or invite others to
2781
01:28:56,000 --> 01:29:00,159
ask but um i believe i'm supposed to now
2782
01:28:58,719 --> 01:29:01,679
thank you because this was a very
2783
01:29:00,159 --> 01:29:04,719
harmonious note
2784
01:29:01,679 --> 01:29:07,920
you managed to channel through your um
2785
01:29:04,719 --> 01:29:08,560
your late advisor back to wallerstein
2786
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:09,920
and and
2787
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:12,320
even though you disagree with some of
2788
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:14,239
his ideas which i certainly do as well
2789
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:15,840
um you find a gracious way to
2790
01:29:14,239 --> 01:29:18,159
incorporate him which is
2791
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:18,960
better than i actually treated you in my
2792
01:29:18,159 --> 01:29:21,520
uh uh
2793
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:23,840
rather grumpy remarks and points so
2794
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:25,920
thank you very much for
2795
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:27,360
very engaging talk i think we have a
2796
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:31,120
huge audience
2797
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:32,880
i think michael may want to close
2798
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:34,960
so i'll just thank you and say it was a
2799
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:37,199
very stimulating afternoon and i hope
2800
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:39,040
everyone who's attended is enjoyed
2801
01:29:37,199 --> 01:29:41,120
yeah i'll just join in in thanking you
2802
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:42,719
andrew for a very stimulating talk
2803
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:43,760
thanks to all of our audience members
2804
01:29:42,719 --> 01:29:45,440
and again
2805
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:47,120
check our website we have more events
2806
01:29:45,440 --> 01:29:47,840
coming up and we look forward to seeing
2807
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:50,639
many of you
2808
01:29:47,840 --> 01:29:52,880
online stay safe everyone thank you
2809
01:29:50,639 --> 01:29:58,080
thanks thanks for inviting me
2810
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:58,080
bye we'll stop the recording