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welcome to our seminar for the afternoon
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it's
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my great pleasure to welcome everyone my
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name is michael berry i'm the director
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of the center for chinese studies at
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ucla and we've had a
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action-packed quarter online uh we
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recently hosted jongling the notable
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contemporary chinese canadian writer we
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hosted
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director of 76 days but today is a
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special treat because we get to welcome
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one of our own faculty and celebrate his
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new publication
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and also use this as an opportunity to
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celebrate his incredible contributions
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to the field of chinese
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archaeology and intellectual history
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and our speaker today is lothar von
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falkenhausen and he has a new book which
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is the center
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of this event today however we're not
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going to conduct it as a typical
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talk it's going to be in a dialogue
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format
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and so hopefully that will make things a
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little more dynamic and we're going to
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have some extra voices brought to the
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table
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that we'll be introducing momentarily
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before we get started i also want to
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mention that today is part of a double
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feature so to speak and so immediately
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after this event
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we will also have a lecture from
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professor duara from duke university
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on china and the asian world and
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that you will need a separate code you
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can go to the center of chinese
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studies website to get the login code
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for that that will begin at four o'clock
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pacific standard time and we hope many
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of you
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re log in again to join us for that
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event uh
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in but for the time being again we're
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extremely excited to
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welcome our colleague professor von
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faulkenhausen
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and in order to serve as master of
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ceremonies
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and introduce all of our speakers today
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i'm going to bring
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up my colleague professor minli who is a
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associate professor in the departments
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of asian languages and cultures as well
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as
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archaeology at ucla and he is going to
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be
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introducing our speakers so i'll turn it
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over to mid
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thank you thank you
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welcome everybody it's a great honor to
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be part of this activity to celebrate
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this
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new book first i would like to introduce
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the
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format of today's event we will have
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about 60 to 70 minutes dialogue
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between the two speakers
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and then we will open the floor to the
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audience questions
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for about 20 to 30 minutes so we will
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monitor the
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uh the chat room uh to
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keep the questions so it's
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it will be a very long introduction if i
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cover all
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aspects of uh the speaker in this
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introductory remark
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uh professor van falkenhausen is a
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distinguished professor of chinese
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archaeology
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and art history at ucla where he has
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taught
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since uh 1993
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and he was educated at bonn university
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pinking university
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kyoto university and harvard university
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where he got his phd anthropology from
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in 1988 so since i was
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a undergraduate student in canada and
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when i whenever i travel
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in china uh visiting these
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archaeological sites people
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always uh bring ask me
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if i know professor von falkenhausen so
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he's more like a legendary figure
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in the field of uh synology
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his research mainly focused on the
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archaeology bronze age china
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on interdisciplinary and historical
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issues
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where archaeological materials can
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provide new insight
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which is reflected in his two major
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books suspended music
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chime bells in the culture of bronze age
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china
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and the more recent award-winning
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chinese society
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in the age of confucius which was seen
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from
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archaeological perspective that
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has been published in japanese korean
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and chinese translations
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he has also um the co-pi for the
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international team working on salt
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archaeology
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in middle yangzi and currently the
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international archaeological field
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school at yangguan jai
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in shanxi among many of his
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contributions he's also
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the president's uh cultural property
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advisory committee member
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appointed by uh president obama
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just rotate it off pardon i just rotate
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it off oh
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okay sorry uh
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and beside his teaching
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uh contributions here and research uh
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to at coastal institute of archaeology
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at ucla
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is also the chang jiang chair professor
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at shibe university in xi'an
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where he's currently giving a lecture
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on economic archaeology of bronze age
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china
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so he's also served in the scientific
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council
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in france germany and also
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the honorary research fellow of the
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shangshi archaeological academy
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and the honorary professor of jojong
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university
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so both of our
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speakers today are the fellow of
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american academy of arts and sciences
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and also guggenheim fellowship so
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professor
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sassy is the university professor from
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um university of chicago teaching
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in comparative literature east asian
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language and cultures
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as well as the committee on social
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thought
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and he was a professor ucla in the 90s
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and he his works try to bridge the
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lessons of classical and modern rhetoric
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to bring
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to bear on the several periods and
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language and discipline and cultures
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among his many works are the translation
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and citation
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on john's inside out and how we
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comparing yet
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very witty uh subjects
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and then we also have the great honor
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to have uh mr mung fans the compiler the
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editor of the book
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of these interviews that professor van
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falkenhausen gave
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mostly in chinese and also
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the books editors from the sanjin press
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in shanxi that's mrs chin yen lan
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and associate editor-in-chief uh
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mr mo dong so good morning and welcome
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everybody
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so i will turn to you too
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to speak the dialogue all right all
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right thank you very much
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you mean it was a very very kind
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introduction
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i'm glad you you pointed out that i'm a
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former ucla colleague because in many
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ways i still miss that institution it
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was
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it was a great place to be um
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so lowtar reading this book of
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interviews
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is is like having a good long
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conversation with you
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about all kinds of things it's really
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you know
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nothing nothing excluded and
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anyway it's in a way it's a compensation
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for not having been able to see you
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for quite a while so i'm i'm glad we're
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able to continue the
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the conversation in the book with this
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other kind of conversation
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i wanted to start out by asking you some
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questions
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uh asking you to elaborate a little bit
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on
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some questions about uh intellectual
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background
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in the largest sense the kind of
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intellectual background that
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goes back to kindergarten if not before
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i i had a chance when i was in berlin
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year before last
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to meet quite a few members of your
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extended family
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and i got a very strong impression that
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these are indeed
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lotar's people they're your
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your parents i had a chance to know back
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in the past
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uh for on many occasions when they came
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to to los angeles to visit and that was
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always a delight
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and i guess if i had to explain to
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people
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uh what the falcon house and family is
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about i'd say these are
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this is an educated milieu with a lot of
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freedom
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in it my sense of your parents and of
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course you would know better
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but my sense is that they never said to
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you
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don't study that subject don't follow
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that avenue of research
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don't become that kind of specialist out
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of any concern
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for i don't know what it is that
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whatever it is that motivates parents
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right questions about
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prestige or future income or family
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tradition
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i have the sense that they were
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extremely encouraging
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and extremely free and also extremely
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stimulating
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and i see this in many members of your
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family where there are people who are
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lawyers but also uh cultural activists
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uh art historians and so on and so forth
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so
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the the the power to pursue your
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interest is a wonderful thing i wonder
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um if this is my
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real question for you all that was first
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elaboration i wonder though
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very subjectively if that background
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that
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that gift of freedom might have
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influenced the way you do
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your intellectual work i see you as
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not a person who is in a discipline but
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a person who
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is in between them a person who
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orchestrates encounters among
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disciplines
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archaeology anthropology art history
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just to stick with the a's
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right and uh your work ranges freely
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across
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relevant fields of knowledge i'm i'm
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wondering
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what how does this affect the way that
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you advise students for example
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do you ever tell people uh
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don't do this professionally uh useful
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thing
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if it will limit you what what is your
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sense anyway just to
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to wrap up this whole question what is
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your sense of sort of the
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the um the the the nature of inquiry
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across
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disciplines and what kind of of
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personality it develops in people
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thank you that's a very rich question
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and before i try to say something to it
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i don't think i can really answer it but
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i can sort of
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um keep this conversation going
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i would first like to say thank you to
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00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,480
you all for being here
293
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thank you in particular horn for
294
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,360
agreeing to join this
295
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,279
thank you lehman and thank you michael
296
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,279
for your introductory remarks
297
00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,440
they're all much too flattering and in
298
00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:12,640
fact having a book with one's image on
299
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,200
the title
300
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,200
published like this is is sort of an
301
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:21,360
ambiguous experience
302
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:25,440
um if one were perhaps
303
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:28,160
more naive than i am one would come
304
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,920
come away possibly thinking that one is
305
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,720
important
306
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,200
which probably would be a mistake to
307
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:38,079
think in this particular case
308
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,000
um i would prefer to think of myself as
309
00:11:38,079 --> 00:11:43,760
somebody who
310
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,760
enjoys what he's doing very much
311
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,120
and of course part of the enjoyment is
312
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:50,240
being at ucla
313
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:53,040
and having this as astonishing
314
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,000
and and always challenging but
315
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,839
challenging and
316
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,839
in a good way intellectual
317
00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:04,959
terrain around oneself
318
00:12:01,839 --> 00:12:07,279
but and as you pointed out part of this
319
00:12:04,959 --> 00:12:08,079
is also of course having my family in
320
00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:10,240
the background
321
00:12:08,079 --> 00:12:11,440
who as you are quite uh as you quite
322
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,560
rightly
323
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,680
suspected have uh have always been very
324
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,880
supportive
325
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:20,720
of um of what i do in fact when my
326
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,399
grandfather was still alive
327
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,160
at the time when i started learning
328
00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:27,279
chinese heard of that
329
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:30,320
if the only thing he he said was oh yes
330
00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:31,760
you know i was told when i was your age
331
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,200
to learn chinese
332
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:38,639
and for various reasons didn't do it but
333
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,839
um but nobody ever questioned
334
00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:44,480
that this is um important
335
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:46,639
and um and of course that's also one of
336
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,880
the things that i tell my students
337
00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:50,880
that even though you know sometimes the
338
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,480
material benefits aren't immediately
339
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,760
obvious
340
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,959
the study of china and the study of
341
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,959
china in its wider
342
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:05,440
connections um across
343
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:07,760
the world and across the academic world
344
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,120
is a thing that has great value in
345
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,839
itself
346
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,120
because of the obvious importance of
347
00:13:11,839 --> 00:13:16,639
china it wasn't
348
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,639
maybe quite as as
349
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,680
ubiquitously emphasized when when i was
350
00:13:19,839 --> 00:13:24,720
starting out 40 years ago
351
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:27,279
more than 40 years ago but nowadays of
352
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,079
course you only need to open a newspaper
353
00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:31,600
and be reminded of you know how
354
00:13:30,079 --> 00:13:34,240
important china is
355
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,079
and one is also reminded especially if
356
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,040
one is a china scholar and reads this
357
00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:40,320
stuff
358
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:43,440
how um limited the flow of information
359
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,480
still is and how astonishingly
360
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,720
ill-informed
361
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,079
even sort of some of our intellectual
362
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,560
not to speak of the political
363
00:13:48,079 --> 00:13:52,160
leaders are about china so this is
364
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,040
something that something has to be done
365
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,959
about
366
00:13:53,040 --> 00:14:00,639
and so learning chinese is
367
00:13:56,959 --> 00:14:03,519
in a sense um the um
368
00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:05,120
the first step into this universe
369
00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:08,000
without which
370
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,160
it is impossible to um i think to
371
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,760
participate in a meaningful way
372
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,920
in improving this information flow
373
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,600
but it is also as i always point out to
374
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:21,839
my students
375
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:27,199
the um insurance policy because you know
376
00:14:21,839 --> 00:14:27,199
should at the end the intellectual
377
00:14:27,519 --> 00:14:34,519
fascination with ancient china flag
378
00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,839
or for various reasons professional
379
00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:38,399
opportunities
380
00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:38,959
in the field of ancient china studies
381
00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:43,120
not
382
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:44,320
um materialize knowing chinese makes you
383
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,440
employable
384
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:50,240
it it is something that you can
385
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,600
apply in all kinds of different fields
386
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,639
and professions
387
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:58,160
um having to do with what my mic
388
00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:01,839
or the real world outside of academia
389
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:04,880
so that is certainly something i
390
00:15:01,839 --> 00:15:05,600
recommend to everybody whether or not
391
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,959
they want to
392
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:11,360
become china-related academics it
393
00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:12,959
is part of living meaningfully in the
394
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,800
modern world
395
00:15:12,959 --> 00:15:19,760
and in that sense of course
396
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,720
it is what what you and i are doing is
397
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,320
very meaningful
398
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:27,279
beyond the very limited perimeter
399
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,600
in which we operate i think it must be
400
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:30,959
but
401
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:34,079
you know in in 1981 when you went off to
402
00:15:30,959 --> 00:15:37,440
uh peking university actually
403
00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:40,079
79 i'm sorry yes uh yeah it was
404
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,560
it wasn't so obvious at all at that
405
00:15:40,079 --> 00:15:43,920
moment
406
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,759
right you would read about china on page
407
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,480
eight of the newspaper and it would be a
408
00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:49,199
very small
409
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,000
article that said something about and
410
00:15:49,199 --> 00:15:53,360
about 10
411
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,600
every 10 days or so yes right so
412
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,639
so i think you were ahead of the trend
413
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,759
but also
414
00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:01,759
um you were almost um
415
00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:03,199
uh it may have seemed at the time you
416
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:05,120
may have you that you were steering
417
00:16:03,199 --> 00:16:06,959
yourself into a dead end because of
418
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,759
course no foreigners could
419
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:10,560
participate in archaeological digs in
420
00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:12,639
china
421
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,759
so you know this sounds a little bit
422
00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:17,040
like uh
423
00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:20,079
you know the a person
424
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:22,320
uh reporting to conduct a symphony with
425
00:16:20,079 --> 00:16:23,519
uh without hearing let's say
426
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,440
you know it's it's a little bit
427
00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:26,880
paradoxical but what how did that feel
428
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,519
for you at the time to be
429
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,120
engaged in this thing that was outwardly
430
00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:33,920
not very promising
431
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,399
despite the intellectual interest yes i
432
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,800
mean
433
00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:37,600
it was again it was something that
434
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,680
obviously
435
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:44,560
needed um to be explored because
436
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,600
simply because it was there the chinese
437
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,959
archaeology
438
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:52,160
is certainly the part of archaeology
439
00:16:48,959 --> 00:16:54,560
the the part of the archaeology of
440
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,000
the what we call the high civilizations
441
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:59,519
of the ancient world
442
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:05,199
that had been at that point least
443
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:09,120
explored by the international academia
444
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:11,839
and the flow of important information
445
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:13,600
was simply or new discoveries were
446
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,360
simply overwhelming
447
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,199
even then and of course it has become
448
00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:20,880
even more so since
449
00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:23,679
so it is true that
450
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,199
certainly no dedicated academic jobs for
451
00:17:23,679 --> 00:17:27,439
this period existed
452
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:29,280
in my own country in germany and i
453
00:17:27,439 --> 00:17:30,640
regret to say that this is still the
454
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,440
case today
455
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,240
um even though efforts have been
456
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,360
announced
457
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,720
and then withdrawn and may still come to
458
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:42,000
fruition hopefully
459
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,400
at some point um but um
460
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,200
in any case the importance is being
461
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,440
realized
462
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:52,480
increasingly now and at the time
463
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,840
it was clear that this was a an
464
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:59,760
extremely promising field that
465
00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:03,120
was waiting for somebody to
466
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:05,360
to enter and i thought this was very
467
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:07,039
worthwhile and it is it was
468
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,280
it was clear to me at the time that this
469
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:14,240
was a risk i had a plan b
470
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:16,480
i thought that you know if um if
471
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,760
there were no way of pursuing this
472
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,360
beyond a certain level
473
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,559
fine i would become a german diplomat um
474
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:27,600
this idea i abandoned fairly quickly
475
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:29,280
uh after a while good thing
476
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,799
yes i don't think it would have been the
477
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,520
right thing
478
00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:35,120
but but at the time it seemed like
479
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,480
certainly one of
480
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,559
there would have been many other
481
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,320
possibilities so
482
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:44,160
um so um i
483
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,600
at the time it was true we were
484
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,760
extremely frustrated
485
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,840
about not being able to participate in
486
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,760
field work but on the other hand
487
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,000
there was certainly enough there to
488
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,720
study simply you know taking
489
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,360
the normal picking university course
490
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,200
load
491
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:04,799
of classes on archaeology was
492
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,840
enough to spend two years with
493
00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:10,240
and since this kind of information
494
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,000
really couldn't be absorbed in anywhere
495
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,559
in the western world at the time
496
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,320
that was the place to go and do it so i
497
00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,600
was very fortunate to have that
498
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,600
opportunity
499
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:24,799
not only in in the abstract but also
500
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,200
the opportunity of studying with
501
00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:28,320
some of the truly leading intellectuals
502
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:33,280
in the field
503
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:35,440
of what might call my parents generation
504
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,200
a couple of them are still alive but
505
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,559
most of them have since passed away
506
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,760
unfortunately
507
00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:44,640
um in any case that was
508
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,039
in itself an extraordinary experience
509
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,760
and
510
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,080
i think that was not only true for me
511
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,120
but
512
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,960
for everybody who had it at the time and
513
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:56,400
repeat it
514
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:59,679
yeah oh and i just wanted to
515
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,760
advance to one more step because
516
00:19:59,679 --> 00:20:04,240
you were very fortunate in having a a
517
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,840
teacher and mentor
518
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,320
who was the reason for you coming over
519
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,480
to this country uh jungkwang
520
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,799
known to generations of non-chinese
521
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,960
speakers as casey chang
522
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:16,720
whose wonderful archaeology of ancient
523
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,720
china as
524
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,640
you know as old as it is is still
525
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,240
extremely valuable i think
526
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,000
but let's talk a little bit about john
527
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,400
guangzhou to whom your first book is
528
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,600
dedicated in very moving terms
529
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:32,080
uh i think you uh what do you you have a
530
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,799
wonderful quotation from the li g right
531
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,679
about
532
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:37,280
about uh a jade chime that gives out
533
00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:40,320
just the right amount of sound
534
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,960
not deafening and not too faint but just
535
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,520
right
536
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,280
um tell us a little bit about about
537
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,200
working with zhang wangju
538
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,200
yes well that that is of course a
539
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:53,280
principle that i've tried to
540
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,760
um adopt in my own teaching myself
541
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,400
although whether or not i was as
542
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:01,520
successful in that as casey jung was
543
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,360
i don't know but you know
544
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,280
every student is different and
545
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,960
especially that is especially true once
546
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,480
you get them at the graduate level as
547
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:12,159
doctoral students
548
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:15,280
and um to bring out
549
00:21:12,159 --> 00:21:17,760
the what is special to them and what
550
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:21,120
they are particularly capable of doing
551
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:24,720
takes a great deal of
552
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:27,760
intuition as well as
553
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:31,919
i suppose pedagogical skills and
554
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,799
neither of which i necessarily have
555
00:21:31,919 --> 00:21:36,240
but i've certainly tried very hard to
556
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:39,440
acquire them
557
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:43,440
and casey jung was a natural he was
558
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:45,840
um extraordinary as a human being
559
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,640
i think that is even more important to
560
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,720
realize
561
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,400
and this has i'm not the only one who
562
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,600
has emphasized this
563
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:56,159
um when he passed away in
564
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,000
uh you can read this in an obituary
565
00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:00,159
after obituary
566
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,600
it is even more important than the the
567
00:22:00,159 --> 00:22:03,840
impact that he had
568
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,360
on on the scholarship in the field which
569
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,400
remains as you say
570
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:09,919
very considerable in more than one area
571
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,559
actually it's not just
572
00:22:09,919 --> 00:22:14,240
a chinese archaeology by the way he's
573
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:17,280
also one of the
574
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,120
guiding spirit behind the entire field
575
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,240
of settlement archaeology
576
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:24,960
which came into the four just when he
577
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:28,159
was beginning his career
578
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:32,159
the um the
579
00:22:28,159 --> 00:22:35,440
the other thing that he always um
580
00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:38,480
promoted was doing archaeology in taiwan
581
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,360
and he did two major field projects
582
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,679
there
583
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:47,039
which which were um extraordinarily
584
00:22:43,679 --> 00:22:49,120
um trailblazing for the history of
585
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:49,840
taiwanese archaeology so chinese
586
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,400
argument
587
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,640
mainland chinese archaeology was only
588
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,679
you know part of his purview
589
00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:01,039
and of course the the archaeology of
590
00:22:57,679 --> 00:23:04,960
ancient china which summarized in one
591
00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:08,480
not very thick volume the entire
592
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:12,080
sort of um universe
593
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:16,080
of um early chinese archaeology
594
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:19,280
such as it presented itself at the time
595
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,400
under a an anthropologically informed
596
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,520
theoretical
597
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:26,720
framework that was neither too rigid
598
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,280
nor too loose just right that was a
599
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,720
major intellectual achievement
600
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,799
in the history of archaeology not just
601
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,000
in the history of chinese archaeology
602
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:38,559
i so studying under somebody like that
603
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,120
was
604
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:44,000
a tremendous challenge of course but
605
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:47,360
since he was so kind and accommodating
606
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:50,799
as i tried to elude in
607
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:54,080
choosing the cg quotation it was also
608
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:56,240
very enjoyable good good and
609
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,080
also i i think of john guard is one of
610
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,480
those people who has multiple
611
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,200
citizenship disciplinarily speaking
612
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,320
yes well as an archaeologist he was also
613
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,720
an anthropologist
614
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,840
and he had models from anthropology that
615
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,679
served him very well
616
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,279
in understanding the artifacts that are
617
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:14,400
the brute givens
618
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:17,039
of the archaeologist's life so
619
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,320
in that way i see him as as having given
620
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,159
a kind of pattern for
621
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,360
things that you subsequently did you
622
00:24:20,159 --> 00:24:25,120
know it's not a
623
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:26,480
that's not a very great leap he was much
624
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,679
better at that
625
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:33,200
he he had a much better formation
626
00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:35,679
in the natural sciences and this is now
627
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,600
less known but his original interest was
628
00:24:35,679 --> 00:24:39,919
in the paleolithic which is of course
629
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,880
really the the natural science part of
630
00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:43,760
archaeology
631
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,919
it was very strong in that that's not
632
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,200
that's not something i've ever pursued
633
00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:50,880
at any with
634
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:53,200
at any detail and and then of course he
635
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,320
was also he had also had
636
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,200
um something of a classical chinese
637
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,799
education
638
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:03,919
so he could handle the written sources
639
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:05,760
effortlessly which of course i will
640
00:25:03,919 --> 00:25:06,559
never be able to do i've never even
641
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,240
tried
642
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:10,320
although i'm of course i feel
643
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,600
responsible for them in some way but
644
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:16,400
um but just bringing them
645
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,640
in wherever they seem relevant without
646
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:22,400
making too much of it
647
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:26,080
that was um that was
648
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:28,159
a gift that he had and he was then
649
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,840
also able to still foreground the
650
00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:31,600
archaeological part of
651
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,240
of the evidence that is to say that
652
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,279
which was actually new and exciting
653
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,600
um and and just using
654
00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:41,039
this the classical quotations as you
655
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,360
know
656
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:44,400
something of a base of reference but
657
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,400
which might be
658
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,520
in fact put into a rather minor
659
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,240
perspective
660
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,880
by the archaeological finds that's
661
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,919
something
662
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,960
our colleagues in china could still
663
00:25:53,919 --> 00:25:57,279
try to learn from casey john some of
664
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,480
them
665
00:25:57,279 --> 00:26:04,000
of course do it very well but but
666
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,400
in a general tendency in china has been
667
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,360
traditionally to overemphasize these
668
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,080
classical
669
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:12,000
textual connections and that has
670
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:15,279
sometimes come to the detriment
671
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:19,440
of bringing out what is really exciting
672
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:19,440
about the data from the field
673
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,039
we have an example of somebody who's
674
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,320
extremely tactful
675
00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:29,039
and flexible and imaginative
676
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,520
very well grounded in fact are there are
677
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:32,880
there other influences you might mention
678
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,720
intellectual influences i don't
679
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,159
particularly mean people who were your
680
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,080
teachers but maybe
681
00:26:36,159 --> 00:26:39,919
you know books that stayed in your mind
682
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,320
or other
683
00:26:39,919 --> 00:26:44,880
resources that uh that are somehow
684
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:48,320
always present in your thinking
685
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,559
well um you know
686
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,360
of course one could mention many things
687
00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:56,080
there
688
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:59,279
and some of them maybe almost perhaps
689
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:02,960
a subconscious so i'm
690
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:02,960
not sure where to start
691
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:10,000
on the one hand as i was often reminded
692
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,080
in fact by casey jung himself it is
693
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,480
extremely important
694
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,000
to have a firm basis in one's own
695
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,960
civilization
696
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,640
when one studies another another
697
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,960
civilization
698
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:28,000
so having had that to some extent
699
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:31,360
not sufficiently perhaps but at least
700
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:34,559
to some extent by
701
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:37,520
getting a reasonably okay again not
702
00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:38,320
absolutely stellar but reasonably okay
703
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,159
traditional
704
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:45,760
education in germany it helped me
705
00:27:42,159 --> 00:27:48,640
to approach the chinese realities
706
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,520
because if you come into that field
707
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,880
without
708
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,360
a basis of reference a kind of
709
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,880
you know scale that you could apply at
710
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,919
least sometimes
711
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,799
in assessing
712
00:27:59,919 --> 00:28:03,840
what you experience there then you very
713
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:07,679
possibly might
714
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:11,760
find yourself um floating around
715
00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:15,360
and uh and disoriented
716
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,399
so that's that has always been important
717
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,880
and
718
00:28:16,399 --> 00:28:19,600
it is probably less important which but
719
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,919
particularly
720
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:26,559
the books i read in that respect um
721
00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:27,440
frankly i wasn't very strongly
722
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,799
influenced
723
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:35,039
by any of the professors that
724
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:37,600
i had at university in germany
725
00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:38,880
um and in fact when i when i went to
726
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,039
china i thought
727
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,360
you know that part is over i will no
728
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:48,159
longer be influenced by any professors
729
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,159
wrong i was that's when it started
730
00:28:49,679 --> 00:28:55,200
but but of course
731
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:57,279
having that kind of self-confidence that
732
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:01,279
one is at least willing to sort of
733
00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:03,360
explore in one's own and to you know
734
00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:05,840
if the professors don't work out well
735
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,799
you know figure it out oneself
736
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,480
that is also perhaps something important
737
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:12,640
when one takes on
738
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,240
what is essentially at least for one's
739
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,240
own basis of reference
740
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:21,679
a new um discipline and tries to
741
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:25,279
um develop that within
742
00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:28,799
one's own framework right right
743
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:30,320
um talking about archaeology and the uh
744
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:33,279
literary heritage
745
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,080
uh of china there's something you said
746
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:37,039
in a
747
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,520
rather programmatic article back in 1993
748
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:39,279
that has
749
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,200
often been quoted and i think often
750
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:42,799
misunderstood
751
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,399
in that article you're protesting
752
00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:46,720
against practices that make
753
00:29:44,399 --> 00:29:47,440
archaeology as you say the virtual
754
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,480
handmaiden
755
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,679
of antiquarianist historiography
756
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,600
and you make the charge that
757
00:29:51,679 --> 00:29:54,320
archaeologists have often failed to
758
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,320
search
759
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,240
for the kind of evidence that only
760
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,520
archaeology can provide
761
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:04,399
yes and i think
762
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,080
this is also a call to a certain model
763
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:08,080
of
764
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,720
interdisciplinarity right people tend to
765
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,880
misunderstand this i think as saying
766
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,799
archaeologists should ignore the
767
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,720
literary heritage which would be the
768
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:20,000
last thing that i would expect
769
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:22,159
uh you lotar to say but rather
770
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,159
that the important thing is to keep them
771
00:30:22,159 --> 00:30:27,679
as separate voices
772
00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:30,000
that can cross cut and diverge yes
773
00:30:27,679 --> 00:30:30,799
very small you have to be strong on both
774
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,000
legs
775
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:36,240
right you can sort of subordinate
776
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,399
one thing to the other and what have
777
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,960
emphasized particularly
778
00:30:38,399 --> 00:30:42,559
in this context is that the study of the
779
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,679
material record
780
00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:49,039
requires um a special
781
00:30:45,679 --> 00:30:51,600
set of methods that is different
782
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:53,600
from the once again very special and
783
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,760
well-defined set of net methods
784
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,279
that you need in philological research
785
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,960
on ancient texts
786
00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:03,760
and those two can meet at some point
787
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,039
but they can't be confounded from the
788
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,250
very beginning
789
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:09,360
because if you do that you end up um
790
00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:11,279
[Music]
791
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,679
studying one of those two bodies of
792
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:15,840
different evidence and it's usually the
793
00:31:13,679 --> 00:31:16,960
archaeological evidence with the wrong
794
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,000
methods
795
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,279
and so um so that's what i emphasize all
796
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,640
the time i still
797
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:27,679
unfortunately haven't felt the need to
798
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,919
stop saying that because it continues to
799
00:31:27,679 --> 00:31:33,039
be a problem
800
00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:34,799
right but in in your uh chinese society
801
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:38,240
in the age of confucius you
802
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:41,440
you often bring out textual evidence but
803
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:44,640
to contrast it with what we find
804
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,840
evidenced by objects in the ground right
805
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,320
and you also uh call forth uh
806
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,120
hypotheses that people have emitted also
807
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,519
on the basis
808
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,919
of archaeological evidence that are as
809
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:58,320
you say refreshingly different from
810
00:31:55,919 --> 00:32:00,159
and far more detailed more dynamic than
811
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,440
the accounts in any of the transmitted
812
00:32:00,159 --> 00:32:02,960
texts
813
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,480
there are moments like that that i think
814
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,159
are very important where you're putting
815
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,480
the two things into dialogue
816
00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:10,240
and not simply seeking confirmation of
817
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,799
one by the other which would be
818
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,399
again that handmade situation that's bad
819
00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:17,519
for both disciplines i think
820
00:32:14,399 --> 00:32:20,799
it really is and and indeed that
821
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:24,640
you you hit the nail on the head here
822
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:27,120
in in particular in
823
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,720
the chinese society in the age of
824
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,559
confucius book
825
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,399
that's of course what i tried to do i
826
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:34,000
didn't i tried to say that the texts
827
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:37,919
were wrong
828
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,600
but um i i was trying to say that
829
00:32:37,919 --> 00:32:42,159
some of the things about which we have
830
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:45,200
certain inklings from the texts
831
00:32:42,159 --> 00:32:47,279
become much clearer when we apply our
832
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,360
archaeological knowledge to them
833
00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:51,519
of course it also then turns out that
834
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,399
the texts may not be as accurate as some
835
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:54,159
people have thought
836
00:32:52,399 --> 00:32:56,320
and they may only apply to a certain
837
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:57,039
period and you know not to another
838
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,640
period
839
00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:00,880
things become more complicated but
840
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,600
that's that's all for the better in my
841
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,679
opinion
842
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,120
right well the complexity sometimes the
843
00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:07,600
form of periodization
844
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,720
there's a wonderful uh explanation of
845
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,120
why it is that
846
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,039
confucius is referring when he talks
847
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,600
about ritual order
848
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:16,320
to a situation which was not current in
849
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,799
his day
850
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,679
but it's been several centuries previous
851
00:33:18,799 --> 00:33:21,840
and that of course
852
00:33:19,679 --> 00:33:23,039
is is the whole point of his making
853
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,279
these these
854
00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:26,320
uh statements about how ritual works
855
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:27,919
right confucius
856
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,840
yes you probably would have never
857
00:33:27,919 --> 00:33:31,679
mentioned it otherwise
858
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,519
because it was it would have been
859
00:33:31,679 --> 00:33:36,399
evident to everybody
860
00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:37,200
no rather than something that only very
861
00:33:36,399 --> 00:33:41,440
few people
862
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:44,080
even remembered but here periodization
863
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,200
gives us an insight into the status of
864
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,440
the discourse
865
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,039
right as in the status being you know is
866
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,240
it fictional or non-fictional
867
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:56,000
is it descriptive or normative is it uh
868
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:59,200
possibly even portratory text that says
869
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,279
absolutely yes you know um if you if you
870
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,279
can't get those linguistic modes
871
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,640
straight then your reading is going to
872
00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:06,960
be impossible
873
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,839
but here the evidence from the ground
874
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,839
helps us understand which mode to apply
875
00:34:09,839 --> 00:34:13,200
yes i think those moments are very
876
00:34:11,839 --> 00:34:16,560
precious yes
877
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:19,839
i agree with you and of course if i
878
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:22,879
had wanted to write an 800 page book
879
00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:23,599
instead of a 400 page book i could have
880
00:34:22,879 --> 00:34:25,599
put in
881
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,639
all these texts and discuss them in
882
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:30,079
detail
883
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:32,960
but that part you know has been
884
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:34,159
done better by other scholars who are
885
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,399
truly on top
886
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:38,879
of the textual materials so i didn't
887
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:40,240
really want to dilute the archaeological
888
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:42,960
part of the book
889
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:43,760
through more even more textual
890
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,079
references
891
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,520
than i already provide and i'm facing
892
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:48,000
the same issue with the book that i'm
893
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,800
currently
894
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,399
writing where there certainly would be a
895
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,119
great deal to say from a textual
896
00:34:52,399 --> 00:34:55,280
perspective
897
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:56,399
but it has actually been said and it has
898
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,839
been well said
899
00:34:56,399 --> 00:35:03,040
by other scholars so i leave it to them
900
00:35:00,839 --> 00:35:05,200
yeah um now
901
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,760
i mentioned interdisciplinarity it's uh
902
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,440
i guess a particular obsession of mine
903
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,960
uh because i'm always trying to push
904
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,280
people into doing it uh
905
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,079
young and innocent people who's who
906
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,119
should know better
907
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,760
than listen to me but i think it's very
908
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:20,160
important
909
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,960
you know disciplines exist i think to be
910
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,680
combined
911
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,079
and to be made to say something other
912
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,440
than
913
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:29,359
what a discipline in isolation might say
914
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,880
but i wanted to focus a little bit on
915
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:32,160
this because it's been a consistent
916
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,560
theme in your work
917
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,400
in suspended music for example the book
918
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,040
that grew out of your dissertation
919
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:41,119
you are of course occupied with
920
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,000
archaeological objects some very famous
921
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:46,960
objects like the bells of marquitsang
922
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,680
but you're also as necessary wandering
923
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,880
into
924
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:54,320
music theory uh metallurgy
925
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,440
acoustics um you know social
926
00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,000
archaeology as well as as the
927
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,720
descriptive uh earth based archaeology
928
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,880
and so on
929
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,920
i find this very natural and sort of
930
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,160
imposed by
931
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,760
the kind of object you had in front of
932
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,200
you the kind of questions you wanted to
933
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,240
ask about it
934
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,560
uh but that's just one case um in
935
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,839
in general do you have an instinct for
936
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,160
when it is that you
937
00:36:15,839 --> 00:36:18,960
need to leave the bounds of one
938
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,079
profession
939
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:24,160
or discipline and go into another
940
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:26,720
well that depends of course on the
941
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,960
evidence at hand and
942
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,800
and you know what you just brought up
943
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,160
hugs back to a question you asked
944
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,160
earlier you know
945
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,520
wasn't i feeling constrained by the fact
946
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,720
that i couldn't
947
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,079
excavate well sure i was on the other
948
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:43,119
hand i certainly couldn't
949
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:46,720
have done all this work on bells if i
950
00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:49,839
had had the opportunity to excavate
951
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:52,400
being essentially forced to come up with
952
00:36:49,839 --> 00:36:54,160
a topic that you could do based on the
953
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,920
published archaeological
954
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,960
reports and various parts of the
955
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:01,440
literature led me to this
956
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,040
coming together with my already existing
957
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,400
interest in music
958
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,400
and um and here too casey jung you know
959
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,280
played an important role
960
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,880
he he actually was quite musical and he
961
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,760
he was a great singer
962
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,920
but he didn't feel comfortable uh with
963
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,119
music and he said okay you know we let
964
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,640
joe rulen
965
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:25,760
who was then uh teaching um
966
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:29,040
chinese music at harvard we let her work
967
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,599
uh join your committee and uh and deal
968
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,560
with that
969
00:37:29,599 --> 00:37:33,440
aspect but he never told me not to do it
970
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,680
um
971
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,680
and of course once i had done it i mean
972
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,320
when i started i wasn't so aware but
973
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,680
once
974
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,320
i had done it it it came it became clear
975
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,480
that this really was
976
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,880
extremely central not just to
977
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,400
um to understanding various
978
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,880
musicological issues
979
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,000
but to understanding early chinese
980
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,440
culture
981
00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:00,880
and in particular the scientific part of
982
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,599
the intellectual developments that led
983
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,800
to
984
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:07,920
the development of proto-science
985
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:11,440
and even modern science in china
986
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:13,119
so um it was that
987
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,440
that it would be so important wasn't
988
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:19,200
clear to me from the beginning
989
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,400
but sometimes these topics have their
990
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,960
own dynamic
991
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,400
you start at one point and think you can
992
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,280
probably
993
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,359
you know confine it to a more
994
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,599
traditional archaeological approach you
995
00:38:29,359 --> 00:38:32,720
know
996
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:35,680
getting the typology right maybe
997
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,520
you know incorporating certain tone
998
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,680
measurements and then it becomes clear
999
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,359
oh no there's a great deal more and you
1000
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,400
have to talk about it
1001
00:38:41,359 --> 00:38:46,240
so and that's also something casey jung
1002
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,400
always emphasized
1003
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:50,320
he always said there is no excuse you
1004
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,760
know you can't run around saying you are
1005
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,880
an archaeologist
1006
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,520
therefore i don't do x you know you
1007
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,599
can't
1008
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,599
say you're an archaeology and an
1009
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:02,720
archaeologist and so you don't
1010
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:05,040
do texts or you don't do music
1011
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:06,240
or you don't want to art you can do a
1012
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,560
little less of it
1013
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,599
but you have to consider it you have to
1014
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,880
be touched
1015
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:14,000
as he called it yeah yeah well those are
1016
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,560
words to inscribe
1017
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,920
in gold over various impediments of
1018
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,119
institutions of learning
1019
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,160
where people are very dedicated to uh
1020
00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:25,040
to departmental formations of knowledge
1021
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,800
maybe
1022
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,400
this is something to talk about a little
1023
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,119
bit uh right because you know
1024
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,560
scholarship
1025
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:35,320
is drawn to interdisciplinary questions
1026
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,200
yes but how does interval how does the
1027
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,200
interdisciplinary mode
1028
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,599
fit with institutions how do you find a
1029
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,160
home for it in an institution
1030
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:45,640
well of course you know we were very
1031
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,200
much encouraged to work
1032
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,240
interdisciplinarity when i was in
1033
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,839
graduate school
1034
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:53,040
but the minute we have emerged from the
1035
00:39:49,839 --> 00:39:55,359
job market we've all punished for it
1036
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,079
because everybody said oh you are not a
1037
00:39:55,359 --> 00:39:58,720
real
1038
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:59,200
ex this still happens to me today and in
1039
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,640
fact
1040
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:05,119
i was never able to find employment
1041
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:08,400
in what i still regard as my home
1042
00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:10,480
discipline of anthropology
1043
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,720
when i arrived at ucla somebody
1044
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,079
suggested giving me a zero percent
1045
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:16,000
courtesy of appointment
1046
00:40:14,079 --> 00:40:17,839
in the anthropology department that was
1047
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,960
voted down because i wasn't a real
1048
00:40:17,839 --> 00:40:22,880
archaeologist
1049
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,880
and wouldn't even give you zero percent
1050
00:40:23,359 --> 00:40:28,160
but the the art historians um were
1051
00:40:26,319 --> 00:40:30,720
extremely hospitable and
1052
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,000
you know could see the marriage and what
1053
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:35,760
i was doing and
1054
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:38,720
in fact in in some respects i'm probably
1055
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,400
better served by this department and by
1056
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:44,160
what anthropology has
1057
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,319
since become so i'm i'm quite grateful
1058
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,200
to to have become an art history
1059
00:40:46,319 --> 00:40:50,800
professor
1060
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,200
even though of course i still
1061
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,280
emphasize the anthropological aspect of
1062
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,480
our of archaeology
1063
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,839
right and not historical ones
1064
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:04,800
i deal with those but but um
1065
00:41:01,839 --> 00:41:05,040
only as part of my purpose right yeah it
1066
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,440
is
1067
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,800
it is odd to see you uh enrolled in a
1068
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,599
department of art history i'm not going
1069
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,200
to protest
1070
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:13,119
of course it's it's good that you have
1071
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,079
that role but you know the traditional
1072
00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:17,359
epinage
1073
00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:18,960
of of art history is uh is quite
1074
00:41:17,359 --> 00:41:20,720
different from the things that you bring
1075
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,359
to bear i think when you're interpreting
1076
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:23,440
objects
1077
00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:25,119
well i was always very interested in art
1078
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:28,400
history i mean in western art
1079
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:30,400
history when i was growing up so um
1080
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,920
so this i certainly can talk to my
1081
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,760
colleagues on what they do
1082
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,680
that has never been a problem um and
1083
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,280
and i'm interested in what they do as
1084
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,960
well and
1085
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:46,079
um then of course
1086
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:48,880
the um the
1087
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:49,760
anthropological methods are actually a
1088
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,040
boon
1089
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,599
to be able to apply to what some people
1090
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,800
might call
1091
00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:59,920
works of art because they bring out
1092
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,319
dimensions in in
1093
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:04,560
their significance that without these
1094
00:42:02,319 --> 00:42:07,200
methods you might not be able to
1095
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,079
find on the other hand when it comes to
1096
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,280
abstract
1097
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:14,240
sort of philosophical aesthetics
1098
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,119
that's not my strengths i i have some
1099
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:17,280
interest in
1100
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:18,319
that i would like to be able to apply it
1101
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,720
to
1102
00:42:18,319 --> 00:42:22,480
some of the early chinese materials but
1103
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:24,319
i'm probably not the best person to do
1104
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,760
that
1105
00:42:24,319 --> 00:42:29,839
yeah um you know looking at your
1106
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,760
your the two major books that we've been
1107
00:42:29,839 --> 00:42:34,240
talking about suspended music and
1108
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,480
chinese society in the age of confucius
1109
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,280
one would get the impression that you're
1110
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,319
a person
1111
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:43,040
who is mostly focusing on
1112
00:42:40,319 --> 00:42:44,800
the upper stratum of society right the
1113
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:48,160
people who get buried in
1114
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:52,480
huge tombs full of wonderful bronzes and
1115
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:56,240
complete sets of bells and so on um
1116
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:59,200
you no one will ever complain about your
1117
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,280
marvelous explanations of the people at
1118
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,640
that level of society
1119
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:07,680
i i find it very piquant and probably
1120
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:10,480
um another source of uh a
1121
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,079
renewed investigation for you that when
1122
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,520
you finally
1123
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:16,079
go to china and begin getting your hands
1124
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,960
dirty
1125
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:20,800
in an actual excavation it has to do
1126
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,319
with salt production
1127
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,800
in in the territories that are very far
1128
00:43:24,319 --> 00:43:28,960
from the capitals and the grand palaces
1129
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,520
and tombs that had furnished
1130
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,440
those early books of yours so let's talk
1131
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,040
a little bit about salt archaeology what
1132
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,960
do we learn from it
1133
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,720
we learned a great deal about it and in
1134
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:42,400
fact the topic is
1135
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:42,880
is closely related from the point of
1136
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,920
view
1137
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:49,200
of the intellectual processes that go on
1138
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,160
in its research to the study of chinese
1139
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:54,640
bills
1140
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:58,240
because it also relates to
1141
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,520
figuring out technical and technological
1142
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,960
processes
1143
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:06,079
um over very long uh space
1144
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:09,839
spans of time and then it also relates
1145
00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:15,359
to the um the exchange
1146
00:44:09,839 --> 00:44:18,720
of um moderately precious commodities
1147
00:44:15,359 --> 00:44:20,720
over large distances um of course
1148
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,240
this happens at a different social level
1149
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:25,040
that's for sure
1150
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:26,319
but but some of the anthropological
1151
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,960
issues involved here
1152
00:44:26,319 --> 00:44:29,440
are actually surprisingly similar and
1153
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,400
i've
1154
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,359
had always hoped to have the chance to
1155
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:37,119
get to that
1156
00:44:33,359 --> 00:44:40,400
um to to get to that social level
1157
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:43,280
because it isn't emphasized enough
1158
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,240
by um our colleagues who do field work
1159
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,760
in china
1160
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:51,920
who for various understandable reasons
1161
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,839
simply have to focus on elite
1162
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,960
remains that if they didn't excavate
1163
00:44:53,839 --> 00:44:57,920
them right away
1164
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,599
would be um you know threatened by by
1165
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,880
grave robbers or by
1166
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:05,920
construction modern construction so
1167
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,440
understandably you know the the study of
1168
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:11,440
the non-elite
1169
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,440
so far has uh taken the back seat
1170
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,800
in chinese archaeology i think this is
1171
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,480
changing now
1172
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:21,520
um gradually and
1173
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:24,640
start in the study of for instance um
1174
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:28,400
resource extraction sites and
1175
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,560
um production sites workshops etc
1176
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,240
that's sort of the new frontier in the
1177
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,920
field
1178
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:39,119
and we
1179
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:42,000
launched this international project
1180
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:43,040
for the study of salt archaeology in the
1181
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,160
upper yards of
1182
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,720
river basin in the late 1990s
1183
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,520
with this idea in mind that we might
1184
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:53,040
sort of
1185
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:56,160
put into motion a um
1186
00:45:53,040 --> 00:46:00,000
a process in this direction
1187
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:03,359
um salt archaeology in particular
1188
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:06,160
lent itself to international cooperation
1189
00:46:03,359 --> 00:46:07,680
because it hadn't been done in china and
1190
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,880
it had been done
1191
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,160
in many different other parts of the
1192
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,240
world
1193
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:18,240
so we could bring in specialists from
1194
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:19,839
all kinds of other areas from the new
1195
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:22,079
world and from the old world
1196
00:46:19,839 --> 00:46:23,280
to look at these chinese sites newly
1197
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:25,440
discovered at the time
1198
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,319
and somewhat enigmatic to their
1199
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,240
discoverers
1200
00:46:26,319 --> 00:46:30,079
and could say immediately oh yes this is
1201
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:30,880
not what they did and this is how they
1202
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:34,160
did it
1203
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,280
and then our colleagues with whom we
1204
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:39,680
collaborated
1205
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:43,920
uh listened to them and said aha um
1206
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:46,240
are you really sure so we proceeded to
1207
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,520
show that to in fact prove this by
1208
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:49,119
various methods
1209
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,280
and so in the end everybody was very
1210
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:54,079
happy it's it's really
1211
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,119
a poster child for a successful
1212
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:57,359
international
1213
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:59,680
collaboration and the people who
1214
00:46:57,359 --> 00:47:02,560
participated have all
1215
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,040
had very good careers in archaeology one
1216
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,040
of them
1217
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,440
unfortunately died prematurely a few
1218
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:11,280
years ago but
1219
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,720
but in any case that that is
1220
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,480
that has been an extremely good
1221
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,640
experience it
1222
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,599
publications from this project are still
1223
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,200
coming out
1224
00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:21,599
my colleague lies return at baking
1225
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,319
university is just in the process of
1226
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:25,680
publishing
1227
00:47:22,319 --> 00:47:26,960
a very major book on salt archaeology
1228
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,839
all over the world
1229
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,720
which was majorly informed by our work
1230
00:47:29,839 --> 00:47:34,880
there
1231
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:38,400
um the the final report on our project
1232
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,960
is hopefully soon going to see the day
1233
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,839
i think it was it was finished several
1234
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,000
years ago
1235
00:47:41,839 --> 00:47:46,000
and has been sort of held up in
1236
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,200
publication but it will now come out i
1237
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,920
think pretty soon
1238
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,720
at least that's what i i'm being told so
1239
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,119
um
1240
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:54,800
i think the full impact hasn't even
1241
00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:58,000
started to be felt yet
1242
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,480
and yet you know once we started doing
1243
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:03,520
salt
1244
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:06,559
archaeology in the suburbs of chongqing
1245
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,960
suddenly all over china
1246
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:10,559
people started you know doing research
1247
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,280
on ancient salt production
1248
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:14,000
in shandong on the coast in hong kong
1249
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,040
even
1250
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:20,800
also on the coast but also on indian
1251
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,160
salines in indiana province which nobody
1252
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,520
had even known about
1253
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,480
before etc etc so this this has now
1254
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,800
become sort of
1255
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,319
a field that can stand of its own and
1256
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,520
i'm very happy that
1257
00:48:30,319 --> 00:48:34,480
um that i sort of participated in its
1258
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,280
genesis
1259
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,280
and at that very early stage brought in
1260
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,200
some people who could give advice
1261
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,319
as to how to do this kind of research
1262
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,400
because i myself
1263
00:48:42,319 --> 00:48:47,599
of course wouldn't have known this this
1264
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:51,280
is the kind of thing for which you need
1265
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:54,240
special atlas who have the experience
1266
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,680
right yeah one one interesting thing
1267
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:58,000
about salt right it's
1268
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,720
it's something that is very culture
1269
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,119
neutral
1270
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,920
it's very easily cross-cultural people
1271
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:06,319
used it as money in ancient times we
1272
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,160
you know we basically salt has dr has
1273
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:09,920
dropped below the horizon of
1274
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,720
our awareness because it's so cheap
1275
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,800
these days but once upon a time salt was
1276
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:16,720
a precious commodity and one of the
1277
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,440
things that you could reliably trade
1278
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:21,200
with people who are of another language
1279
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,640
and culture and so on than yourself
1280
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,440
right so
1281
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,839
i i i could well see how this would be a
1282
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,240
pivotal kind of investigation
1283
00:49:27,839 --> 00:49:32,240
yeah and that that leads me to ask
1284
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,760
indiscreet questions about your present
1285
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:36,160
project which you tell me
1286
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,359
is about the economic history of early
1287
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,160
china
1288
00:49:37,359 --> 00:49:41,680
what does salt uh what part does salt
1289
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:45,520
play in that
1290
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:48,720
well that was of course the touchstone
1291
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,920
i didn't um
1292
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:56,000
where we we actually did publish
1293
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:59,200
three um collective volumes
1294
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:01,359
about our field project
1295
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,720
which have had a certain amount of cons
1296
00:50:01,359 --> 00:50:06,640
of
1297
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,640
of circulation in china
1298
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,119
we published those in china but in both
1299
00:50:09,119 --> 00:50:14,559
languages in english and chinese
1300
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:18,079
page page to page a great deal of work
1301
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:20,480
to compile but i think worth while but i
1302
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:21,520
except for one article i never really
1303
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,160
published
1304
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,520
anything about the salt project even
1305
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,240
though i thought i had
1306
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,960
a few things to say i had sort of
1307
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,000
generate
1308
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:35,200
i've been that led towards generating
1309
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,240
a theoretical model for inter-regional
1310
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,359
exchange
1311
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:41,440
in early china and in particular
1312
00:50:39,359 --> 00:50:43,520
for the the kind of exchange that
1313
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,000
happened between what you might call the
1314
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,760
core
1315
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:51,200
area of the early chinese kingdoms
1316
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:53,440
and their neighbors in the sort of more
1317
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,839
distant areas including of course
1318
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,640
the other young severity where we did
1319
00:50:55,839 --> 00:51:00,079
our assault
1320
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,520
um related work and this
1321
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:08,000
model involves sort of the um
1322
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:11,440
the the coming into existence of
1323
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:14,800
long lasting very stable
1324
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:19,520
sort of regular patterns of
1325
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,920
economic exchange annually repeated sort
1326
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,640
of
1327
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,839
missions of people going in both
1328
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:28,160
directions
1329
00:51:23,839 --> 00:51:30,800
and sort of exchanging their wares
1330
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,839
and everything and i must say i came up
1331
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,280
with this
1332
00:51:31,839 --> 00:51:38,160
in connection with doing our work
1333
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,440
in jumba at the salt producing site near
1334
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,800
chongqing
1335
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:45,839
but i've since found it um in
1336
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:49,359
various guises elsewhere
1337
00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:52,960
as well and in all different
1338
00:51:49,359 --> 00:51:57,119
geographical directions from the
1339
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:59,280
so-called core area the clearest example
1340
00:51:57,119 --> 00:52:01,440
probably the best example isn't even our
1341
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:05,040
salt
1342
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:08,240
project but it would be the copper mines
1343
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:12,079
in the middle young the base southern
1344
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:16,000
bay uh western and in southern
1345
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:19,760
where um clearly copper was
1346
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,880
mined for centuries probably for
1347
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:24,480
millennia
1348
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:28,160
by local people who were not
1349
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:31,359
under the political or even cultural way
1350
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:34,319
of the early chinese kingdoms but
1351
00:52:31,359 --> 00:52:35,280
who traded it or exchanged it in some
1352
00:52:34,319 --> 00:52:38,319
fashion
1353
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,520
with them and um and then of course this
1354
00:52:38,319 --> 00:52:42,319
copper became
1355
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,520
the raw material for some of the most
1356
00:52:42,319 --> 00:52:45,760
magnificent
1357
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,119
bronzes ever produced in the history of
1358
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,520
the world
1359
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:51,040
not by the people who had mined the
1360
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,160
company it is to say but
1361
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:57,200
by those counterparts of theirs who
1362
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,040
um existed in the um in the
1363
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:02,400
contemporaneous kingdoms
1364
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:05,040
further to the north and um
1365
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:07,359
and it's not totally clear what the
1366
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:10,000
local people got back in exchange
1367
00:53:07,359 --> 00:53:11,359
apparently they got some of the the
1368
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,079
finished products
1369
00:53:11,359 --> 00:53:16,400
which smacks of a sort of leo colonial
1370
00:53:14,079 --> 00:53:17,599
model that's not what i'm going towards
1371
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,359
i don't think that's
1372
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:20,960
that's even the most important part of
1373
00:53:19,359 --> 00:53:22,240
these exchanges there are many things
1374
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,480
that remain unknown
1375
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,520
but but these kinds of inter
1376
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,400
interchanges
1377
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,040
exchanges did happen along the borders
1378
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,440
of
1379
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,480
the chinese cultural core in a number of
1380
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,520
different areas
1381
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:38,559
involving various kinds of things that
1382
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,119
for various reasons the um inhabitants
1383
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:41,839
of the
1384
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:44,720
shanghai kingdoms weren't able to get or
1385
00:53:41,839 --> 00:53:46,960
produce on their own
1386
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:49,280
you you remind me of the great dwanza
1387
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,839
story about the man from chi
1388
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,559
who goes to sell ceremonial caps in
1389
00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:55,040
europe
1390
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:56,480
yes sometimes that the men of they all
1391
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,880
shave their heads and they wear
1392
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,040
tattoos so ceremonial caps are
1393
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,839
completely useless for them
1394
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,240
i think your story about copper and salt
1395
00:54:03,839 --> 00:54:08,079
puts that into perspective because
1396
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,599
the the person coming to trade copper
1397
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:11,760
and salt never melt
1398
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:13,760
met with a refusal right these were
1399
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,319
things that were self-evidently useful
1400
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,319
and created the kind of tie that the
1401
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:18,720
protagonist of that little drama's story
1402
00:54:18,319 --> 00:54:21,599
is
1403
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:22,240
frustrated not to find that's true in
1404
00:54:21,599 --> 00:54:24,880
fact that
1405
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:26,160
the uh that's that's a very astute
1406
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:29,520
observation
1407
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,680
um the the what we might call the
1408
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:34,480
products of higher culture
1409
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,800
you know the ritual objects once they
1410
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,599
get
1411
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,720
out they get taken out of their original
1412
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:41,440
contexts of
1413
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:42,559
cultural reference become if not
1414
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,280
meaningless
1415
00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:47,440
then at least they they are strongly in
1416
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:50,240
need of being reinterpreted
1417
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,200
sometimes the reinterpretation succeeds
1418
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:53,599
such as when
1419
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,319
you know ritual bronzes from the sun and
1420
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:56,720
the joke
1421
00:54:54,319 --> 00:54:57,359
got into the southern areas copper
1422
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:58,960
producing
1423
00:54:57,359 --> 00:55:00,720
areas where they were used in a
1424
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,720
completely different way and also
1425
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:05,680
imitated by local
1426
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,000
trans um makers who weren't quite as
1427
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,079
good
1428
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,280
as the counterparts further to the north
1429
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:11,920
but okay
1430
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:14,079
and uh but but clearly we're we're
1431
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,480
trying to do very different things
1432
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:17,599
the same thing with the proto-porcelain
1433
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,599
or rather
1434
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:20,720
we should probably call it a glazed
1435
00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:24,000
stoneware
1436
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:26,160
from the chinese southeast which was
1437
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:29,839
also traded to the north
1438
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,640
but on you know in its original area it
1439
00:55:29,839 --> 00:55:33,680
is what
1440
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,799
ordinary people use
1441
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:39,839
on a daily basis in great numbers
1442
00:55:36,799 --> 00:55:41,040
and these were just you know ordinary
1443
00:55:39,839 --> 00:55:43,440
rice boards
1444
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,079
by the time they got to the the shang
1445
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:48,160
court
1446
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:49,119
they became precious status symbols very
1447
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,160
rare
1448
00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:55,680
and uh and probably no less
1449
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:57,920
valuable than than some bronze vested
1450
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,000
and of course exotic which which also
1451
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,400
enhances the value
1452
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,240
yeah that's interesting to see but of
1453
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,280
course the same thing doesn't mean the
1454
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:09,920
same thing
1455
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:12,720
um depending on no matter where it is
1456
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,400
on the case in the case of you know
1457
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:17,480
commodities
1458
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,799
like salt and uh and copper the kind of
1459
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,280
reinterpretation
1460
00:56:18,799 --> 00:56:23,119
that goes on if it is even necessary
1461
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,920
will be a much more basic one
1462
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:26,640
right right but you're so this uh this
1463
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,559
example
1464
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:30,000
of the copper trade and the salt trade
1465
00:56:28,559 --> 00:56:33,359
remind us of
1466
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:36,079
how based in elite culture and values
1467
00:56:33,359 --> 00:56:38,319
our frequent definitions of china are or
1468
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:40,559
our accounts of the origin of china
1469
00:56:38,319 --> 00:56:41,520
or the unity of china i'm thinking of
1470
00:56:40,559 --> 00:56:43,839
you know
1471
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,440
work that i admire a lot by gohan and
1472
00:56:43,839 --> 00:56:48,720
other people who talk about
1473
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:51,839
you know culture civilization
1474
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:52,400
ritual order moral order the writing
1475
00:56:51,839 --> 00:56:54,319
system
1476
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,240
you know all these things as being
1477
00:56:54,319 --> 00:56:56,880
something that emanates from the center
1478
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:58,960
and
1479
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,240
achieves some kind of uptake all through
1480
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,720
the areas of china
1481
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,160
that uh that know about them but you
1482
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:06,079
know copper and salt has a very
1483
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,000
different dynamic and maybe it was
1484
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:09,520
maybe these were more important in
1485
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,400
binding together these different
1486
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,400
populations
1487
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:18,079
the quest for those commodities may have
1488
00:57:16,319 --> 00:57:20,960
initiated
1489
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:21,760
the exchange systems that i was talking
1490
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,200
about
1491
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:28,720
without without
1492
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:32,960
that the local populations might
1493
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:34,079
have just sort of pursued the production
1494
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,280
or the the um
1495
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:39,839
extraction of these resources at a much
1496
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,280
smaller scale just to satisfy their own
1497
00:57:39,839 --> 00:57:43,839
needs
1498
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,839
right but by being sort of drawn into a
1499
00:57:43,839 --> 00:57:49,359
larger economic sphere
1500
00:57:45,839 --> 00:57:50,960
of course new patterns of dependency and
1501
00:57:49,359 --> 00:57:52,880
also new needs
1502
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:56,480
come into being i mean that's that's
1503
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:59,440
what economic archaeology is all about
1504
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:01,839
it's not so much economic history i
1505
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:04,400
think the economic history of my period
1506
00:58:01,839 --> 00:58:05,599
has been well studied from the textual
1507
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,240
perspective
1508
00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:10,319
by some very eminent scholars including
1509
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:13,760
you know professor richard from glenn
1510
00:58:10,319 --> 00:58:14,640
of ucla so i'm not trying to compete
1511
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,680
with those
1512
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:19,200
i'm just as in my previous book i'm
1513
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:22,000
trying to reduce
1514
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,920
some supplementary materials that can
1515
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,940
help us
1516
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,119
see these already known
1517
00:58:25,940 --> 00:58:30,799
[Music]
1518
00:58:27,119 --> 00:58:33,760
developments in a new and in some cases
1519
00:58:30,799 --> 00:58:34,960
slightly different or more detailed
1520
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,240
perspective
1521
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:42,000
and more representative in some ways
1522
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:45,119
but certainly incomplete necessary
1523
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,720
just as incomplete as the written right
1524
00:58:45,119 --> 00:58:49,040
but when you then put both of them
1525
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:52,480
together maybe you can get somewhere
1526
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:55,599
right yeah i see this is as again the
1527
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:57,280
the shadow of anthropology yes because
1528
00:58:55,599 --> 00:58:58,000
anthropology is what teaches you to
1529
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,040
elicit
1530
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,920
implicit rules from behavior or from
1531
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,400
artifacts
1532
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,200
and that's more or less what i see you
1533
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,520
as doing
1534
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,720
rather than say writing as you say the
1535
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,839
economic history
1536
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:13,920
but it's more uh reconstructing patterns
1537
00:59:11,839 --> 00:59:17,920
of economic behavior
1538
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:19,680
yes well i i wouldn't feel comfortable
1539
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:23,040
i mean for that you would also have to
1540
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:26,000
know more about economics than i do
1541
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,920
it's um it's one thing to talk about
1542
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,160
economics based on
1543
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:32,000
you know concrete archaeological
1544
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,880
materials at hand
1545
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,799
and it is quite a different thing to to
1546
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:40,000
write about economics from a perspective
1547
00:59:36,799 --> 00:59:42,960
that involves economic theories
1548
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,359
i hope somebody else once they read my
1549
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,720
book
1550
00:59:43,359 --> 00:59:50,480
my my forthcoming book will be able to
1551
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:53,520
um to apply some interesting theories to
1552
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:55,040
the data there but uh i don't feel
1553
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,000
comfortable
1554
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,680
even trying i'm i'm sure you will
1555
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,920
stimulate further work
1556
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,280
what can you tell us more about this uh
1557
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:06,799
this forthcoming
1558
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:10,079
book on on economics
1559
01:00:06,799 --> 01:00:14,319
well i um you know
1560
01:00:10,079 --> 01:00:15,839
it's going to be a counterpart or a
1561
01:00:14,319 --> 01:00:18,559
sequel you might say
1562
01:00:15,839 --> 01:00:20,799
to the um to the chinese society in the
1563
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:22,240
age of confucius book in the sense that
1564
01:00:20,799 --> 01:00:24,960
it is
1565
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:27,440
it is it deals with the same period and
1566
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:29,800
it is once again
1567
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,200
in some ways an excuse to
1568
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:35,040
[Music]
1569
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:36,240
to go through the archaeological record
1570
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,920
of this period
1571
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,920
see what is new and exciting
1572
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,680
remind people of some of the equally
1573
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:44,000
exciting things that were there before
1574
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,760
but
1575
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,760
but hadn't really been noticed but
1576
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:51,280
there's a lot that is very new
1577
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,280
and very exciting that you know
1578
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,319
just needs to be brought to the
1579
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:57,760
extension
1580
01:00:54,319 --> 01:01:00,160
of to the attention of of that part of
1581
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:03,440
the public that doesn't read chinese
1582
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:06,240
and um i'm also bringing in
1583
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,880
some of the japanese scholarship on the
1584
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:10,720
subject
1585
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:13,040
which which is extremely fine
1586
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,720
and which doesn't tend to get noticed
1587
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,920
outside of japan
1588
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:20,960
um and so again i
1589
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:24,720
i'm not making great um
1590
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:28,480
promises of um of
1591
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:30,079
necessarily being earth-shakingly
1592
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:33,280
creative here
1593
01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:35,920
it's a work of synthesis as the priest
1594
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,319
the previous one was but the previous
1595
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,760
one
1596
01:01:36,319 --> 01:01:42,079
was apparently found useful so i hope
1597
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,319
that that this one is going to be useful
1598
01:01:42,079 --> 01:01:47,599
too i write it for people like yourself
1599
01:01:44,319 --> 01:01:48,400
who would probably don't spend most of
1600
01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:50,880
their time
1601
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,079
looking at archaeological report but who
1602
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,400
would in theory
1603
01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:56,000
if it could be done effortlessly like to
1604
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:59,039
be told you know
1605
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:02,240
why those archaeological reports are
1606
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:05,200
um worth going through or
1607
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,240
you know tell us something that we need
1608
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,039
to know
1609
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,520
so that's that's the kind of mediating
1610
01:02:09,039 --> 01:02:12,400
role
1611
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:14,319
i am taking here and then of course
1612
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,039
there's much more to be done
1613
01:02:14,319 --> 01:02:18,640
which i don't think i need to do or
1614
01:02:17,039 --> 01:02:20,720
should do because i'm probably not
1615
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:23,359
equipped to it
1616
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:25,280
um you know about about this uh this
1617
01:02:23,359 --> 01:02:29,039
sort of thing about eliciting
1618
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:32,480
the uh the the voices as it were
1619
01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:34,160
uh behind objects i
1620
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,480
i want to read a couple of sentences
1621
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:39,599
here from also from
1622
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:42,559
uh your age of confucius book uh
1623
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:44,640
where where you you teach us how to read
1624
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:47,440
something in a very subtle way
1625
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,799
uh and this is after of course bringing
1626
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:52,000
forth lots and lots
1627
01:02:48,799 --> 01:02:54,880
of material evidence about about rituals
1628
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:57,599
and sacrifices and burials and so on
1629
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,319
you then say uh you're summarizing the
1630
01:02:57,599 --> 01:03:00,079
way that the
1631
01:02:58,319 --> 01:03:02,079
inscriptions in the late western joe are
1632
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:02,720
written and you say the contrast is thus
1633
01:03:02,079 --> 01:03:05,359
salient
1634
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:07,760
what had happened evidently the focus of
1635
01:03:05,359 --> 01:03:10,480
ritual had shifted from the ancestral
1636
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,319
spirits to the living ritual community
1637
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,559
even though the ancestors were still the
1638
01:03:12,319 --> 01:03:16,400
nominal focus of the sacrifice
1639
01:03:14,559 --> 01:03:18,960
they were no longer considered potential
1640
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:21,119
givers of supernatural aid and so on
1641
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,480
you know this this requires a lot of
1642
01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:25,039
subtlety in
1643
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,599
looking at an inscription which might
1644
01:03:25,039 --> 01:03:29,119
for
1645
01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:31,359
90 of its wording echo inscriptions
1646
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:33,839
that had that other previous focus on
1647
01:03:31,359 --> 01:03:36,960
the ancestors as givers of aid
1648
01:03:33,839 --> 01:03:40,079
but this uh you'd be able to pick up the
1649
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:42,720
the self-reflexive nature of of
1650
01:03:40,079 --> 01:03:43,760
those inscriptions and also to correlate
1651
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:47,119
it with the
1652
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:49,440
epochs of ritual reform and
1653
01:03:47,119 --> 01:03:50,799
what must have been debates about what
1654
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:55,039
was legitimate
1655
01:03:50,799 --> 01:03:57,680
expenditure on rituals and on sacrifices
1656
01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:58,160
what was the purpose of of ritual
1657
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,400
behavior
1658
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,760
and so on i just think it's it's
1659
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,920
wonderfully
1660
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,440
tuned if i can use the you're the
1661
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:08,079
musical metaphor you're
1662
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,680
you just are capturing vibrations in
1663
01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:12,319
those old inscriptions that
1664
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,039
are not at all obvious even to people
1665
01:04:12,319 --> 01:04:15,440
who deal
1666
01:04:13,039 --> 01:04:16,960
every day day in and day out with texts
1667
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:19,680
well that's because
1668
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:21,039
i don't deal every day day in and day
1669
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:24,319
out with texts
1670
01:04:21,039 --> 01:04:27,119
but i look at a great number of them
1671
01:04:24,319 --> 01:04:28,640
i take in that sense a um an
1672
01:04:27,119 --> 01:04:31,119
anthropological approach
1673
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,480
in looking for patterns i don't pretend
1674
01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:34,559
to understand every
1675
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,400
word in these inscriptions i am much
1676
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:39,359
more interested in their structure
1677
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,880
the the philological details um are
1678
01:04:39,359 --> 01:04:43,280
often
1679
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,240
you know unimportant when you try to
1680
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:47,440
figure out
1681
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:49,280
what is most basic to these and you know
1682
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,480
the details can then be
1683
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,960
be scrutinized by by people who really
1684
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:55,760
know
1685
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,079
how to study ancient chinese scripts and
1686
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,200
then of course it also helps to place
1687
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:02,480
these
1688
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:05,119
inscriptions all of them as a
1689
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,559
as a universe of data not just as
1690
01:05:05,119 --> 01:05:07,520
individual inscriptions i think that
1691
01:05:06,559 --> 01:05:10,640
makes a difference
1692
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:13,440
but but then this sub-universe of data
1693
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,480
in an even larger universe of data
1694
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:20,160
that um that includes the objects
1695
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:23,280
on which the inscriptions are placed and
1696
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:26,559
and their functional contexts and
1697
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:29,599
and if you look at these in
1698
01:05:26,559 --> 01:05:30,319
from an archaeological perspective and
1699
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:32,880
you
1700
01:05:30,319 --> 01:05:33,680
you cannot if you do that you cannot
1701
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,000
fail
1702
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,280
to notice that some things change over
1703
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,240
time and that there's a
1704
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:42,079
fairly significant change um happening
1705
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,920
during the period
1706
01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:45,200
about which i write in the passage that
1707
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,720
you just
1708
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:51,920
just so kindly um quoted um
1709
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,680
so um anybody could do this
1710
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,119
but of course some people aren't
1711
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,960
necessarily
1712
01:05:55,119 --> 01:05:58,880
you know putting their focus their
1713
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,400
intellectual focus on finding out these
1714
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,400
kinds of relationships
1715
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:04,799
and i'm not blaming them i mean they
1716
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,799
they find out other interesting things
1717
01:06:04,799 --> 01:06:08,960
yeah well the saying goes that chance
1718
01:06:06,799 --> 01:06:12,079
favors the prepared minds
1719
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:13,599
and by you know by looking around by
1720
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:15,359
reading around by paying a lot of
1721
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:20,559
attention to a lot of
1722
01:06:15,359 --> 01:06:23,200
facts you you make that prepared mind
1723
01:06:20,559 --> 01:06:24,160
yeah so i'm wondering we've we've been
1724
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:27,359
talking for about an
1725
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:30,160
hour now and um
1726
01:06:27,359 --> 01:06:31,359
perhaps we can open up for questions
1727
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,160
from the audience what do you think
1728
01:06:31,359 --> 01:06:34,960
lauter
1729
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,440
great idea all right thank you you you
1730
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,520
are
1731
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:39,839
if you are like casey jung and that you
1732
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:42,720
are very good at asking questions
1733
01:06:39,839 --> 01:06:44,240
oh well i i don't work for the cia so i
1734
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,480
don't do it as a
1735
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,839
as an interrogation but just to satisfy
1736
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,720
my curiosity
1737
01:06:47,839 --> 01:06:53,119
and maybe that of others i refer the i
1738
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:55,119
prefer the other cia the culinary
1739
01:06:53,119 --> 01:06:58,720
institute of america
1740
01:06:55,119 --> 01:07:01,920
yeah we we all prefer
1741
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:04,640
that one and i wonder how many wrong
1742
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:06,920
calls they get on the phone
1743
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:09,200
i think they are asking for it
1744
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:13,440
[Laughter]
1745
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:16,720
yeah yeah all right
1746
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,720
do we hear from the audience
1747
01:07:17,359 --> 01:07:21,440
okay there's one question oh it's a it's
1748
01:07:20,319 --> 01:07:23,280
quite a long one
1749
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,720
i can let you you want to kind of read
1750
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,280
that
1751
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:30,480
send it up to us so we can see it okay
1752
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:33,680
it's in the q a box
1753
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:36,000
i am ginza me a sophomore at college of
1754
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:38,319
the holy cross in worcester
1755
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:41,280
massachusetts i have a question about
1756
01:07:38,319 --> 01:07:43,039
your 1994 book on trying belt and preach
1757
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,720
in china i speculate that true
1758
01:07:43,039 --> 01:07:47,760
shamanistic rituals
1759
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:49,599
incorporated the poetic qualities
1760
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,839
as well as mythological and religious
1761
01:07:49,599 --> 01:07:55,760
beliefs of truths
1762
01:07:51,839 --> 01:07:57,839
into the lyrics of chamber songs
1763
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,319
when coupled with the hypothesis that
1764
01:07:57,839 --> 01:08:03,520
true spoken vernacular reflected
1765
01:08:00,319 --> 01:08:06,480
non-synagogue substrates i wondered
1766
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:08,079
if time was songs in the true state
1767
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,760
differed from those in
1768
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:12,480
other states wise was there any previous
1769
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:15,039
research
1770
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,599
into chinese ethnic musicology that
1771
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:17,600
linked
1772
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:18,640
baxter sagad reconstruction of all
1773
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,799
chinese
1774
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,319
with archaeological evidence in the
1775
01:08:20,799 --> 01:08:24,640
yangtze valley
1776
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:27,279
what would you suggest i do if i proceed
1777
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:31,120
with my research at the doctoral level
1778
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:31,920
wow that's um that's a very specialized
1779
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,359
question
1780
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:38,799
um horn would you have any comments
1781
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:42,159
about um the the ideas
1782
01:08:38,799 --> 01:08:45,520
concerning the the songs of true that
1783
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:45,520
are being voiced here
1784
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,520
we don't have a lot of direct evidence
1785
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:52,560
there there is one
1786
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:56,239
song that was transcribed into
1787
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:58,080
high period characters i think um
1788
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:59,759
and perhaps that would provide some
1789
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,600
guidance and of course you know
1790
01:08:59,759 --> 01:09:03,120
anyone can recognize that the the
1791
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,960
rhythms and scissors
1792
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,640
of true poetry are different from what
1793
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:09,920
you get in the north but
1794
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:13,199
i i i don't i don't quite know
1795
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:15,799
about the relation to the bells when
1796
01:09:13,199 --> 01:09:17,199
when bell inscriptions do
1797
01:09:15,799 --> 01:09:19,440
self-description
1798
01:09:17,199 --> 01:09:20,400
you know when they commend themselves
1799
01:09:19,440 --> 01:09:22,960
for their
1800
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:24,560
for their sound and their their copious
1801
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:27,679
echoing and so on
1802
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:30,799
uh you often find a lot of
1803
01:09:27,679 --> 01:09:32,560
sort of sounds in the rhymes that i view
1804
01:09:30,799 --> 01:09:35,199
as a kind of an attempt to make the
1805
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,920
language echo the properties of the bell
1806
01:09:35,199 --> 01:09:38,880
so one question that could be pretty
1807
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,199
easily
1808
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:42,159
solved by just looking up the the verse
1809
01:09:41,199 --> 01:09:46,080
would be to see
1810
01:09:42,159 --> 01:09:48,799
how often are these sort of verses
1811
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:50,000
in in true poetry and if they're less
1812
01:09:48,799 --> 01:09:52,880
rare
1813
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:53,520
maybe the relation between music and
1814
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,400
song
1815
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,480
is uh not meant to be one of uh
1816
01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:00,560
similarity but of difference but that's
1817
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:02,000
you know really just skating on very
1818
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:05,520
thin ice of hypothesis
1819
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:08,800
there yes i'm thinking
1820
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:12,320
too it's it's
1821
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:16,320
very hard to figure out what
1822
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:19,199
is truly distinctive about true
1823
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:21,040
because for all the things that that
1824
01:10:19,199 --> 01:10:24,080
seem at first sight
1825
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:24,480
to be distinctive about true we don't
1826
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:28,080
have
1827
01:10:24,480 --> 01:10:30,640
any direct non-true counterparts
1828
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,600
for instance the truths of poems are the
1829
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,000
only
1830
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:36,400
warring state spirit lyric poetry that
1831
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:39,280
we have from china
1832
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:40,960
the the shooting poets poems to which
1833
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,440
they are often compared
1834
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,000
are from an earlier period so when
1835
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:46,000
comparing
1836
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,679
the two you are comparing apples and
1837
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:51,040
oranges you cannot
1838
01:10:47,679 --> 01:10:51,760
um prove that this the same kind of
1839
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,159
poetry
1840
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,520
that we now have only for the truth from
1841
01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:58,400
the boring states period
1842
01:10:55,520 --> 01:11:00,320
wasn't also being composed in north
1843
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,800
china during the same period and we just
1844
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:05,280
don't have anything left of it
1845
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:07,679
and mutations mutant is the same with
1846
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:09,040
with shooting like poetry in south china
1847
01:11:07,679 --> 01:11:10,960
in the earlier periods
1848
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:12,080
in fact there the bronze inscriptions
1849
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:15,040
show that at least some
1850
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:16,400
people were putting together you know
1851
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,440
four by four
1852
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:20,159
rhyme uh rhymed uh metric poetry similar
1853
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:23,679
to
1854
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:26,480
um to to the shooting poems
1855
01:11:23,679 --> 01:11:28,320
but but that might just have been the
1856
01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:31,520
use of a more generalized
1857
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:33,199
um religious idiom that was specific to
1858
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,640
the bronze inscriptions i don't want to
1859
01:11:33,199 --> 01:11:36,719
preempt this discussion
1860
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,159
but in the material culture too you know
1861
01:11:36,719 --> 01:11:40,960
we we learn about
1862
01:11:38,159 --> 01:11:42,159
all this exuberant lacquer about based
1863
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:44,800
out from true
1864
01:11:42,159 --> 01:11:46,719
sure enough it exists there it is it's
1865
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:49,040
extremely impressive
1866
01:11:46,719 --> 01:11:51,280
but lacquer doesn't preserve in north
1867
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,960
china we don't have any of it we don't
1868
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,640
we know that they made it we sometimes
1869
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:56,800
see little flex of it in
1870
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:58,560
in the ground when we excavate carefully
1871
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,159
enough in north china it goes back to
1872
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:02,239
even earlier periods there
1873
01:12:00,159 --> 01:12:04,480
even the shang period we see lacquer
1874
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:06,000
traces but there isn't enough of it to
1875
01:12:04,480 --> 01:12:07,520
to tell us what these things really
1876
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,120
looked like they might have looked
1877
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:09,920
exactly the same as the ones from the
1878
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,960
true area
1879
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:16,080
there's no way of telling so
1880
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:19,440
in my opinion
1881
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:23,600
we we are ill-advised to
1882
01:12:19,440 --> 01:12:26,239
to over-emphasize the the
1883
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,960
alleged differences between chu and
1884
01:12:26,239 --> 01:12:29,280
other parts
1885
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,440
of joe china and that is certainly true
1886
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:34,320
of the original music too
1887
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:35,280
i don't i don't see anything where we
1888
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:38,239
can say
1889
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,920
with confidence that there is a contrast
1890
01:12:38,239 --> 01:12:42,560
as the languages go
1891
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,600
we also have no idea what kind of
1892
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,719
language
1893
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:49,760
the um the original
1894
01:12:46,719 --> 01:12:52,320
population of the middle young um
1895
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:54,000
region was speaking or and whether it
1896
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:57,120
was a non-semitic language
1897
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:59,679
on the only thing that we do know is
1898
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,320
that by the time anybody wrote anything
1899
01:12:59,679 --> 01:13:03,360
down
1900
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:06,400
it was in classical chinese and you know
1901
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:08,480
not very different as things go
1902
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:11,280
from the classical chinese that was
1903
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:15,600
written down anywhere else
1904
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:19,440
when it comes to correlating um
1905
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:21,920
dialects and material culture
1906
01:13:19,440 --> 01:13:22,800
the only relevant work that i am aware
1907
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:26,159
of has been done
1908
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:29,440
not with musical instruments but with
1909
01:13:26,159 --> 01:13:33,120
the already mentioned glazed stoneware
1910
01:13:29,440 --> 01:13:36,320
or proto-porcelain
1911
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:37,600
which can be typologized in such a way
1912
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,840
that there are
1913
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:42,400
in some some people's opinion there are
1914
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:44,080
several regional complexes
1915
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,960
there's another reconstruction that is
1916
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:49,120
only six in any case these two
1917
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:51,440
interestingly seem to correlate with
1918
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:53,280
dialect areas in modern china
1919
01:13:51,440 --> 01:13:54,800
and some people have speculated that
1920
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:57,360
these modern dialect
1921
01:13:54,800 --> 01:14:00,000
areas were not originally dialects but
1922
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:03,199
in fact non-synthetic languages that
1923
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:04,239
took up took on so much of genetic
1924
01:14:03,199 --> 01:14:06,640
vocabulary
1925
01:14:04,239 --> 01:14:08,159
that they ended up becoming like local
1926
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,719
versions of chinese
1927
01:14:08,159 --> 01:14:12,640
although frankly speaking those of us
1928
01:14:10,719 --> 01:14:13,280
who only know mandarin don't understand
1929
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,880
those
1930
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:19,600
local versions at all in any case
1931
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,719
you know their their geographic
1932
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:24,159
patterning
1933
01:14:20,719 --> 01:14:27,360
seems to have been similar or
1934
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:30,960
seems to be similar today to that
1935
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:34,560
of um of stonewall
1936
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:37,440
placed stoneware in
1937
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,400
in the period between approximately a
1938
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:41,679
thousand
1939
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:43,760
bc and 200 bc
1940
01:14:41,679 --> 01:14:45,520
this could of course also be quite
1941
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:49,280
completely accidental
1942
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:52,320
um you know using a certain kind
1943
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:54,640
of glazed stoneware doesn't uh
1944
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,679
prove that you speak a certain language
1945
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:58,400
and you can't
1946
01:14:55,679 --> 01:14:58,880
really draw a clear connection between
1947
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,920
this
1948
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,320
between the two yeah there are always so
1949
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,800
many
1950
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:06,880
mysterious filters operating on the data
1951
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:11,040
that we have aren't there
1952
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:13,120
yes that is true here comes the second
1953
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:15,360
question uh here's one from giorgio
1954
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:18,640
buchelatti
1955
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:19,440
who uh talks about your scholarly
1956
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,920
personality
1957
01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:24,080
echoing the what the katzen institute
1958
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:28,000
has made possible for us over the years
1959
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:30,800
i i share that view
1960
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,679
a question that rests on our says
1961
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,520
giorgio
1962
01:15:31,679 --> 01:15:36,400
respective personal experience in the
1963
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:38,719
field i work as a foreigner in syria
1964
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:40,080
as you work as a foreigner in china and
1965
01:15:38,719 --> 01:15:42,159
at the same time we both
1966
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:43,600
have become very much identified with
1967
01:15:42,159 --> 01:15:46,159
the local people
1968
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:48,080
how do you view your foreignness at the
1969
01:15:46,159 --> 01:15:50,080
very time that you become so closely
1970
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:51,679
integrated in many ways with the local
1971
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:55,840
culture
1972
01:15:51,679 --> 01:15:59,679
well i mean when when somebody
1973
01:15:55,840 --> 01:16:01,920
like myself who looks the way i do
1974
01:15:59,679 --> 01:16:03,600
and speaks chinese the way i do which is
1975
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,880
you know fluently but certainly not
1976
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:08,400
perfectly
1977
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:10,719
it goes to china he or she cannot
1978
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:12,719
escape their foreigners that is an
1979
01:16:10,719 --> 01:16:16,719
irreducible
1980
01:16:12,719 --> 01:16:18,560
aspect of what we all do there um
1981
01:16:16,719 --> 01:16:20,159
the wonderful thing about working in
1982
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:23,120
china is that
1983
01:16:20,159 --> 01:16:24,000
people are so nice to us in fact
1984
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,000
probably
1985
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:28,640
much nicer than we deserve some of the
1986
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:32,159
totally much nicer
1987
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:35,320
i i'm glad you agree on um so
1988
01:16:32,159 --> 01:16:37,280
um so i have been
1989
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:40,159
[Music]
1990
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:42,239
i've been very blessed in having had
1991
01:16:40,159 --> 01:16:45,440
wonderful collaborators
1992
01:16:42,239 --> 01:16:48,960
um and students and
1993
01:16:45,440 --> 01:16:52,880
visiting scholars who
1994
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:56,400
have taught me a great deal there
1995
01:16:52,880 --> 01:17:00,840
and of course part of my role
1996
01:16:56,400 --> 01:17:04,640
here is to read their work and try to
1997
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,640
um mediate
1998
01:17:04,719 --> 01:17:09,280
the very important work that is being
1999
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:12,320
done in chinese archaeology
2000
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,840
to the international audience that
2001
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,440
for various reasons hasn't learned
2002
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:19,120
chinese yet
2003
01:17:15,440 --> 01:17:22,400
so here
2004
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:25,600
that's my responsibility now of course
2005
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:27,199
syria and china are different in one
2006
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:30,560
respect
2007
01:17:27,199 --> 01:17:34,880
and that is that as a former
2008
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:35,280
colony the tenor of syrian archaeology
2009
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:38,480
has
2010
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:41,920
been formed mainly
2011
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:42,800
by outside actors and this is absolutely
2012
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:46,159
not the case
2013
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:49,600
in china where from the very beginning
2014
01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:52,159
archaeology has been in the hands of
2015
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,880
chinese scholars the the relevant
2016
01:17:52,159 --> 01:17:56,480
literature
2017
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:58,719
is virtually completely in chinese
2018
01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:00,239
there is a strong archaeological
2019
01:17:58,719 --> 01:18:03,360
community there
2020
01:18:00,239 --> 01:18:05,840
we are only sort of hangers on we
2021
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:07,840
are in many senses guests very
2022
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,440
privileged guests but certainly not
2023
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:12,880
nothing more than that
2024
01:18:09,440 --> 01:18:15,199
and all of our work has to
2025
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,239
if it is to be taken seriously has to
2026
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:21,120
take place
2027
01:18:16,239 --> 01:18:24,159
within the discourse that is and
2028
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:27,600
is irreducibly
2029
01:18:24,159 --> 01:18:30,719
set by our chinese colleagues
2030
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:32,800
um and that's a good thing in fact
2031
01:18:30,719 --> 01:18:37,199
there's so much talk these days
2032
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:39,360
about the decolonization of archaeology
2033
01:18:37,199 --> 01:18:41,679
and we had a long discussions about that
2034
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:43,040
during our recent institutional retreat
2035
01:18:41,679 --> 01:18:46,480
at the council
2036
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:48,159
and i was tempted at the time to say and
2037
01:18:46,480 --> 01:18:48,800
in fact i did say during the breakout
2038
01:18:48,159 --> 01:18:50,880
session
2039
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:53,280
that you know everybody should look at
2040
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:55,360
chinese archaeology as the model of what
2041
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:56,719
archaeological practice all over the
2042
01:18:55,360 --> 01:19:00,960
world should be
2043
01:18:56,719 --> 01:19:04,320
the um the relatively subordinate role
2044
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:07,840
taken by outside actors the
2045
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:10,400
um the leading role obviously taken by
2046
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:13,120
our chinese
2047
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:14,239
collaborators the presence of a very
2048
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,920
strong
2049
01:19:14,239 --> 01:19:17,920
administrative framework for the
2050
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:21,199
practice of archaeology that
2051
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:22,000
is linked to the chinese state structure
2052
01:19:21,199 --> 01:19:25,600
and which has
2053
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:28,960
worked reasonably well um for the last
2054
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:31,120
more than 50 years so um we have more
2055
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:34,320
than 60 years in fact at this point
2056
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:38,000
so um all of these um
2057
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:39,600
all of these factors are something that
2058
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,040
we in china more or less take for
2059
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:43,679
granted and in fact
2060
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:45,040
they take some getting used to uh
2061
01:19:43,679 --> 01:19:47,679
however
2062
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:48,800
it is something that of course it don't
2063
01:19:47,679 --> 01:19:50,400
it doesn't exist
2064
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,400
in many other parts of the world and
2065
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:56,480
arguably probably should
2066
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:58,480
so um i hope those of us at the codes
2067
01:19:56,480 --> 01:20:01,840
who don't work in china
2068
01:19:58,480 --> 01:20:06,400
can sort of look to china and
2069
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:09,280
maybe bring chinese practices
2070
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:10,560
into whatever fieldwork they do wherever
2071
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:13,600
it is that they go
2072
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:16,960
be it ethiopia or peru
2073
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:19,840
or mexico or such other places
2074
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:22,560
of course in peru especially in peru and
2075
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,560
in mexico
2076
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:27,280
great strides have been made in recent
2077
01:20:25,199 --> 01:20:29,760
decades to
2078
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,520
to bring about an archaeological
2079
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,320
discourse that is no longer completely
2080
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:34,719
determined
2081
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:37,120
by what north american archaeologists
2082
01:20:34,719 --> 01:20:39,199
happen to find interesting
2083
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:40,880
and that needs to be strengthened and we
2084
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:42,320
should play our role in strengthening
2085
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:45,760
that we should not try to
2086
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:47,600
sort of go against that to the country
2087
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:48,880
and in that sense i think the kind of
2088
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:52,159
work that lee min
2089
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:54,800
and i and many of our students and
2090
01:20:52,159 --> 01:20:55,840
and colleagues in this country are doing
2091
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:58,400
in china
2092
01:20:55,840 --> 01:21:00,320
can at least be not necessarily a role
2093
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:03,040
model but at least an example
2094
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:04,800
of how things can function and how
2095
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:05,920
things can be handled in a way that is
2096
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:09,040
more equitable
2097
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,600
more just and for those who participated
2098
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:12,880
also
2099
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:15,440
much more pleasurable right yeah
2100
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:16,080
and i i'll take the opportunity to
2101
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:18,320
underline
2102
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:20,239
your work in translating the work of
2103
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:22,880
chinese colleagues and presenting it
2104
01:21:20,239 --> 01:21:24,239
in uh not only chinese but also japanese
2105
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:25,840
colleagues you know very
2106
01:21:24,239 --> 01:21:27,360
very important thing for us all to do
2107
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:30,000
who have the the
2108
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:31,199
facility in another language too thank
2109
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,120
you for pointing this out
2110
01:21:31,199 --> 01:21:34,800
i do think this is extremely important
2111
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:37,360
and talking about
2112
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:39,040
academic departments they should you
2113
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:40,560
know value that more
2114
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:43,040
i mean i've never had a problem with
2115
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:46,080
that but i know some other people have
2116
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:47,840
it is doing scholarly translation is not
2117
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,040
something that professional translators
2118
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:51,199
can usually do
2119
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:52,639
and it is something that takes just as
2120
01:21:51,199 --> 01:21:55,840
much effort as writing
2121
01:21:52,639 --> 01:21:55,840
scholarly monographs
2122
01:22:01,199 --> 01:22:06,639
i should say my translation of the first
2123
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:09,679
volume of lee ling's book about the true
2124
01:22:06,639 --> 01:22:11,199
silk manuscript has just come out in
2125
01:22:09,679 --> 01:22:12,560
hong kong
2126
01:22:11,199 --> 01:22:14,560
the second volume which is not
2127
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:18,000
translated by me is
2128
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:21,360
uh is being eagerly accepted expected
2129
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:23,120
good but that that book should hopefully
2130
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:25,440
make a major impact
2131
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:26,800
on this particular subfield of early
2132
01:22:25,440 --> 01:22:30,000
china studies
2133
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:31,920
great um here we have a question that
2134
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:33,840
i think you've already touched on a bit
2135
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:35,600
but i'll bring it forth
2136
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:37,440
one of our audience members says i
2137
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:38,239
wonder if you could elaborate a bit more
2138
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:40,400
on the topic
2139
01:22:38,239 --> 01:22:42,800
what can chinese archaeology contribute
2140
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:45,920
to the world
2141
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:49,360
chinese archaeology can can
2142
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:52,400
contribute to the world a great deal
2143
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:56,800
of putting
2144
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:59,199
other cultures in perspective we can
2145
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,400
we can you know we have been sort of
2146
01:22:59,199 --> 01:23:03,920
conditioned
2147
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:06,400
to take as the norm what happened
2148
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:07,360
in the after all rather limited
2149
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:10,080
geographical
2150
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:10,480
area that encompasses the ancient near
2151
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:13,040
east
2152
01:23:10,480 --> 01:23:15,280
and the mediterranean world and then
2153
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:17,760
with with appendages elsewhere in europe
2154
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:20,639
and possibly parts of africa
2155
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:23,040
well you know once you come to china you
2156
01:23:20,639 --> 01:23:25,040
do see some parallels but you also see
2157
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:29,520
overwhelming differences
2158
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:33,120
and also leading to extremely advanced
2159
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:36,400
patterns of of social
2160
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:40,000
and political and cultural complexity
2161
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:44,639
and fantastic of course visual arts
2162
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:48,719
so um we have a genuine alternative here
2163
01:23:44,639 --> 01:23:52,320
that um we can we answer archaeologists
2164
01:23:48,719 --> 01:23:55,600
can extend very far back into the past
2165
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:58,960
we can in fact prove that if they
2166
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:59,840
um developed locally that they that of
2167
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:04,400
course they were
2168
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:06,239
linked in some ephemeral ways to
2169
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:08,239
developments elsewhere in the ancient
2170
01:24:06,239 --> 01:24:08,800
world but they were not determined by
2171
01:24:08,239 --> 01:24:11,199
them
2172
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:12,560
to the contrary they may have exerted
2173
01:24:11,199 --> 01:24:16,000
some influence on
2174
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:19,679
happenings elsewhere and um
2175
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:22,480
that um that really reverberate
2176
01:24:19,679 --> 01:24:25,520
throughout the centuries uh all the way
2177
01:24:22,480 --> 01:24:25,520
until today
2178
01:24:26,719 --> 01:24:31,520
that is a lot for chinese archaeology to
2179
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:34,320
contribute to the world
2180
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:35,360
well and of course then then there are
2181
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:38,000
all these
2182
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:38,719
these individual things that archaeology
2183
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:42,239
can
2184
01:24:38,719 --> 01:24:45,280
the chinese archaeology can can
2185
01:24:42,239 --> 01:24:48,880
contribute to um
2186
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:49,280
world archaeology chinese archaeology
2187
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,560
has
2188
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:54,320
essentially something to offer to every
2189
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:56,159
field of archaeology and usually
2190
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:59,440
something that is unexpected
2191
01:24:56,159 --> 01:25:02,480
and extremely relevant starting from
2192
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:06,239
uh you know early hominins all the way
2193
01:25:02,480 --> 01:25:10,080
to um in fact industrial archaeology
2194
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:10,080
in in the 20th century
2195
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:17,199
lemion raises one interesting uh
2196
01:25:14,480 --> 01:25:18,239
question uh something that you and i
2197
01:25:17,199 --> 01:25:20,239
share
2198
01:25:18,239 --> 01:25:21,600
uh which is that we were we were
2199
01:25:20,239 --> 01:25:24,480
entering graduate school
2200
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:26,000
at the moment that people whose
2201
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:28,639
education had been delayed
2202
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,719
by 10 years on account of the cultural
2203
01:25:28,639 --> 01:25:31,760
revolution were also going to graduate
2204
01:25:30,719 --> 01:25:33,920
school
2205
01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:35,679
and for me it was an immense privilege
2206
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:37,840
to sit on the same bench
2207
01:25:35,679 --> 01:25:39,040
with these people who had been through a
2208
01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:41,840
lot of hardship
2209
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:43,040
and who were not going into graduate
2210
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,440
school because they didn't know what
2211
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:47,360
else to do with their lives which was
2212
01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:48,800
often the case with my american
2213
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,639
contemporaries but who are
2214
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:53,120
who are just you know burning with that
2215
01:25:50,639 --> 01:25:56,000
famous hard gem-like flame
2216
01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:58,239
and who who just had life experience
2217
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:01,760
that we couldn't possibly match
2218
01:25:58,239 --> 01:26:04,320
um i'm wondering uh about
2219
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,880
about that as a specific ingredient of
2220
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:08,000
our
2221
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:10,159
of our training and um
2222
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:11,040
whether to pick up lehmann's question
2223
01:26:10,159 --> 01:26:14,239
again
2224
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:15,120
uh if you were say 20 years old again
2225
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:17,920
today
2226
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:19,600
with the magic spell uh what you would
2227
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:20,639
do differently if you were coming onto
2228
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:23,840
the scene now
2229
01:26:20,639 --> 01:26:26,080
as a naive 20 year old well i don't
2230
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,400
think i would have a choice
2231
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:29,280
you know by the way you are absolutely
2232
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:32,880
right
2233
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:35,199
these these much older fellow students
2234
01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:36,480
whom i had first at peaking university
2235
01:26:35,199 --> 01:26:39,040
and then the target
2236
01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:40,639
were among my very major influences on
2237
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:44,080
my life
2238
01:26:40,639 --> 01:26:47,280
too many to enumerate right now um
2239
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:51,040
i hope they themselves know that i mean
2240
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:53,360
extraordinary simply extraordinary um
2241
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:55,120
but um to answer your question i
2242
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,880
wouldn't have a choice
2243
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,480
you know there isn't a question of not
2244
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:00,159
doing field work anymore of course i
2245
01:26:58,480 --> 01:27:04,080
will be doing field work
2246
01:27:00,159 --> 01:27:08,080
and it probably would have to deal with
2247
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:09,760
you know trying to um make sure that i
2248
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:12,159
can actually use the data in my
2249
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:14,880
dissertation and so on and so forth so
2250
01:27:12,159 --> 01:27:15,520
there's a whole new set of uh of issues
2251
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:18,960
that
2252
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:22,560
that i would have to do differently from
2253
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:24,880
what i i did at the time i probably
2254
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:28,480
wouldn't be able to spend as much time
2255
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:30,239
as i did at the time um you know sitting
2256
01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:31,440
around and learning how to read bronze
2257
01:27:30,239 --> 01:27:34,560
inscriptions
2258
01:27:31,440 --> 01:27:37,920
i might simply not be able to
2259
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:42,320
to get as far with classical chinese as
2260
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:45,120
i in fact was fortunate to do
2261
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:47,840
i might not feel it possible to spend
2262
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:50,960
time not only in china but also in japan
2263
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:51,520
and integrate myself to some extent at
2264
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:54,920
least
2265
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:59,440
in the psychological sphere of that
2266
01:27:54,920 --> 01:28:02,880
extraordinary place so
2267
01:27:59,440 --> 01:28:04,400
a 20 years old in in the modern world
2268
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:08,480
has very different
2269
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:10,480
um very different opportunities but also
2270
01:28:08,480 --> 01:28:13,199
very different expectations
2271
01:28:10,480 --> 01:28:15,840
and also different limitations on what
2272
01:28:13,199 --> 01:28:15,840
they could do
2273
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:21,360
they would also of course encounter a
2274
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:24,159
new a different generation of teachers
2275
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:26,880
that is not to be underestimated who
2276
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:31,520
might teach them very different things
2277
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:32,560
um certainly no less good not less
2278
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:36,320
intelligent
2279
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:39,760
no less intellectually fervent
2280
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:42,159
but probably more specialized far more
2281
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:47,199
specialized
2282
01:28:42,159 --> 01:28:47,199
so developing the kind of um
2283
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:54,080
encompassing perspective on at least
2284
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:57,040
a certain part of the field of chinese
2285
01:28:54,080 --> 01:29:00,560
archaeology that i have been able
2286
01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:03,600
to develop would be much more difficult
2287
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:06,880
for a young scholar today simply because
2288
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:11,440
of the pressure to
2289
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:16,000
to to contribute to certain
2290
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:18,960
very specialized topics um
2291
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:18,960
if um
2292
01:29:20,239 --> 01:29:24,560
what i what would i do that i didn't do
2293
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:28,480
then
2294
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:33,920
and should have done when i was 20
2295
01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:35,440
well i would have tried harder to get
2296
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:38,159
a good foundation in the natural
2297
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:41,440
sciences that was not part of my
2298
01:29:38,159 --> 01:29:44,800
so-so german education unfortunately
2299
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:48,000
and i've i have come to
2300
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:52,960
um find that
2301
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:56,159
lag sometimes to be an impediment
2302
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:57,280
i would certainly if i if i were alive
2303
01:29:56,159 --> 01:30:00,159
today i would
2304
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,719
if i were 20 today absolutely alive
2305
01:30:00,159 --> 01:30:03,440
thank god
2306
01:30:00,719 --> 01:30:03,920
you're alive today but if i went by 20th
2307
01:30:03,440 --> 01:30:06,320
i would
2308
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:08,480
i would already be a computer wizard no
2309
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:10,159
doubt and i would be much stronger
2310
01:30:08,480 --> 01:30:12,159
stronger it would make much much more
2311
01:30:10,159 --> 01:30:15,440
effort to to
2312
01:30:12,159 --> 01:30:18,880
integrate the the digital opportunities
2313
01:30:15,440 --> 01:30:21,679
as it is i'm probably not
2314
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:22,800
not as strong in this respect as i
2315
01:30:21,679 --> 01:30:25,520
probably should be
2316
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:28,560
even for somebody who is of my
2317
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:31,679
generation and i'm still working on that
2318
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:34,880
but i find it difficult
2319
01:30:31,679 --> 01:30:35,920
um but that's that's another thing that
2320
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:38,159
if i was
2321
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:40,000
20 years ago i would make sure to get
2322
01:30:38,159 --> 01:30:44,000
under my bed
2323
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:47,120
um and if i could go back to 19
2324
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:50,480
to the 1970s i would
2325
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:53,760
probably do a great deal more traveling
2326
01:30:50,480 --> 01:30:55,360
than uh at a young age than i've
2327
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:57,520
actually done i mean i'm
2328
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:58,560
reasonably well traveled in china and
2329
01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:01,360
japan and
2330
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:02,320
korea which was south korea to some
2331
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:05,520
extent
2332
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:08,960
but i haven't seen many of the
2333
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:11,440
other um areas where
2334
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:12,880
early cultures developed or when to the
2335
01:31:11,440 --> 01:31:15,600
extent that i've been there
2336
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:18,000
it has only been fairly late and for
2337
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:21,199
relatively short trips
2338
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:23,920
that's too bad in a world where actually
2339
01:31:21,199 --> 01:31:27,360
it is possible to go to those places
2340
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:30,800
and and i do regret that because
2341
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:34,000
being my current age it's not as easy
2342
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:35,040
to to get away and spend the time
2343
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,360
necessary
2344
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,520
and of course that would give one a
2345
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:43,040
better informed comparative
2346
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:44,800
perspective on ancient civilizations
2347
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,639
i mean i wish i had been to syria for
2348
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:47,920
instance talking about syria i wish i
2349
01:31:46,639 --> 01:31:49,760
had been to turkey where i've been to
2350
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,840
istanbul but but i have not been to the
2351
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:54,480
archaeologically truly relevant parts of
2352
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,520
turkey i've never been to egypt i've
2353
01:31:54,480 --> 01:31:59,679
never been to
2354
01:31:55,520 --> 01:32:01,360
um to iraq well not very easy to go now
2355
01:31:59,679 --> 01:32:03,360
you know i am old enough that i could
2356
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:04,960
have gone to afghanistan and still
2357
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:08,400
seen what there was to be seen in
2358
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:10,639
afghanistan it is all destroyed now
2359
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:12,239
i've never been to peru i've been to
2360
01:32:10,639 --> 01:32:15,440
mexico but
2361
01:32:12,239 --> 01:32:17,120
only briefly and not with the amount of
2362
01:32:15,440 --> 01:32:18,320
intensity even though i've actually
2363
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:21,600
published about
2364
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:22,400
my archaeology so so there's a great
2365
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:24,880
deal that
2366
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:26,080
if i were 20 now i would probably just
2367
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:29,280
take off a year
2368
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:31,120
and or take off large chunks of time and
2369
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:34,480
do that
2370
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:36,420
well this is why we have that much money
2371
01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:38,800
so that they can live our dreams
2372
01:32:36,420 --> 01:32:42,000
[Laughter]
2373
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:44,239
and um a questioner uh lume from china
2374
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:47,199
wants to know more about the book
2375
01:32:44,239 --> 01:32:47,840
and about the book of your interviews
2376
01:32:47,199 --> 01:32:49,280
and
2377
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:51,600
i'm afraid we were sort of talking
2378
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:53,520
around it rather than talking about it
2379
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:56,120
specifically but maybe
2380
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:57,360
uh maybe you could say a bit about the
2381
01:32:56,120 --> 01:32:59,280
circumstances
2382
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,400
of these different interviews being
2383
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:02,400
taken and
2384
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:04,239
what sorts of response they had when
2385
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:05,360
they came out in journals and so forth
2386
01:33:04,239 --> 01:33:07,920
before
2387
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,400
well that's that's really something that
2388
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:10,239
um
2389
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,840
i mean about the response that's
2390
01:33:10,239 --> 01:33:14,000
something that uh
2391
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,600
the editor among fans who found them
2392
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,000
important enough to compare it into a
2393
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:19,520
book
2394
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:22,159
would probably be better place to answer
2395
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,199
the the situation where most of them
2396
01:33:22,159 --> 01:33:26,560
took place was just
2397
01:33:23,199 --> 01:33:29,040
sort of usually a student
2398
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:29,760
or a younger colleague approaching me
2399
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:31,920
asking me
2400
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:34,320
to do an interview oh in two cases it
2401
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:37,440
was journalists as well coming to
2402
01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:39,520
um but public intellectuals not
2403
01:33:37,440 --> 01:33:41,280
not ordinary journalists coming to
2404
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:43,120
interview and asking me all kinds of
2405
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:46,159
questions about what i do and what my
2406
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:48,560
perspectives are and you know from
2407
01:33:46,159 --> 01:33:49,679
from this dialogue that we have had
2408
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:52,239
today you can more or less
2409
01:33:49,679 --> 01:33:52,880
imagine you know how it was and you know
2410
01:33:52,239 --> 01:33:55,360
i talked
2411
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:56,080
about various things in a rather loose
2412
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,000
fashion
2413
01:33:56,080 --> 01:33:59,120
there's a lot of overlap i think between
2414
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:02,159
the interview of the
2415
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:03,199
views although i think um dr mung has
2416
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:06,960
done something
2417
01:34:03,199 --> 01:34:10,080
to to to do away with some of that
2418
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,920
um then we added to that an interview
2419
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,199
that i had once given to a german
2420
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:15,600
journalist
2421
01:34:13,199 --> 01:34:18,320
where he talked to me about you know
2422
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:21,679
living in california as a german and why
2423
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:24,800
you know i had and i immigrated here and
2424
01:34:21,679 --> 01:34:26,480
and so i made some rather rather frank
2425
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:30,080
remarks about that
2426
01:34:26,480 --> 01:34:33,120
and if if somebody wants to read about
2427
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:34,560
why i think the the american university
2428
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:38,400
system is really
2429
01:34:34,560 --> 01:34:41,760
one of the true reasons
2430
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:43,199
um why one should be proud to be in
2431
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:46,639
america today
2432
01:34:43,199 --> 01:34:49,600
um even today um
2433
01:34:46,639 --> 01:34:50,159
they can read that interview um anyway
2434
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:54,320
so
2435
01:34:50,159 --> 01:34:55,920
um so there are these various um
2436
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:57,600
public pronouncements that were
2437
01:34:55,920 --> 01:35:01,280
published most
2438
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:05,119
most of them in china and they have been
2439
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:09,119
expertly edited by dr mong who is
2440
01:35:05,119 --> 01:35:12,560
a very fine scholar of chinese history
2441
01:35:09,119 --> 01:35:15,520
and and writes in a beautiful style
2442
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:18,080
and i've been very honored by his
2443
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:21,040
request to compile them in this version
2444
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:22,480
even though i wasn't completely sure
2445
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:24,960
that they were worth it
2446
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:26,400
they he essentially convinced me to do
2447
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:29,440
it and of course the
2448
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:30,320
the publisher made a great deal of
2449
01:35:29,440 --> 01:35:33,040
effort
2450
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:34,639
on behalf of this book and they produced
2451
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:37,679
a beautiful
2452
01:35:34,639 --> 01:35:41,520
little volume and it is
2453
01:35:37,679 --> 01:35:42,800
part of of course one responsibility
2454
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:44,880
that we all have
2455
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,239
as professors in the ivory tower and
2456
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:49,440
that we can't always
2457
01:35:46,239 --> 01:35:50,560
really do justice to that is to you know
2458
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:52,719
talk to some extent
2459
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:54,320
to the general public well in this case
2460
01:35:52,719 --> 01:35:55,760
it wasn't always the general public
2461
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:58,320
because in some cases
2462
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:59,520
you might call it the general public in
2463
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:02,560
about half the case
2464
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:04,800
it was cases it was to still
2465
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:06,480
students who were part of the
2466
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:10,000
archaeological scene
2467
01:36:06,480 --> 01:36:12,159
but um the way it has now been
2468
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:15,199
made accessible it could certainly be
2469
01:36:12,159 --> 01:36:18,400
read by people who aren't necessarily
2470
01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:19,280
themselves archaeologists and who can
2471
01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:22,320
understand
2472
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:23,119
or can can at least sort of get some
2473
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:26,159
idea
2474
01:36:23,119 --> 01:36:29,360
from this book about why
2475
01:36:26,159 --> 01:36:31,600
chinese archaeology is so important and
2476
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:32,239
so excited i think for somebody who
2477
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:35,440
isn't
2478
01:36:32,239 --> 01:36:38,639
originally from china and
2479
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:41,920
who who wishes to sort of
2480
01:36:38,639 --> 01:36:46,480
understand how this can all um um
2481
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:46,480
fit into a broader context
2482
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:52,480
with with the question shall we yeah
2483
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:54,000
but we're lucky that the uh that there's
2484
01:36:52,480 --> 01:36:57,119
such a large public of
2485
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:59,119
interested people in china who are
2486
01:36:57,119 --> 01:37:01,119
conversant enough with disciplines like
2487
01:36:59,119 --> 01:37:01,679
archaeology and textual studies to want
2488
01:37:01,119 --> 01:37:04,080
to read
2489
01:37:01,679 --> 01:37:05,760
a book of interviews by well indeed and
2490
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:06,639
this is something lehman recently
2491
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:09,119
brought up too
2492
01:37:06,639 --> 01:37:09,760
right i mean there's a child in china
2493
01:37:09,119 --> 01:37:13,440
right now
2494
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:17,360
archaeology is uh is enjoying
2495
01:37:13,440 --> 01:37:19,520
um the favors of the highest authorities
2496
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:21,280
and so this this is potentially
2497
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:24,719
certainly a um
2498
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:28,400
um a very promising period
2499
01:37:24,719 --> 01:37:31,920
in the history of the field um
2500
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:34,080
it can be complicated of course
2501
01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:35,840
and i think lisa raefels sends in a
2502
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:37,360
question that touches on the ways that
2503
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:40,159
it can be complicated
2504
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:40,719
she says how do we balance our regard
2505
01:37:40,159 --> 01:37:43,199
for
2506
01:37:40,719 --> 01:37:44,480
an investment in chinese indigenous
2507
01:37:43,199 --> 01:37:46,960
scholarly practices
2508
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:48,800
and their practitioners in many cases
2509
01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:49,679
our close friends colleagues students
2510
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,840
etc
2511
01:37:49,679 --> 01:37:53,760
with discomfort with other actions by
2512
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:55,760
the chinese government in xinjiang
2513
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:58,239
hong kong and elsewhere that in many
2514
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:01,520
cases do not directly and immediately
2515
01:37:58,239 --> 01:38:02,400
affect our work extreme models of
2516
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:04,880
response
2517
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:06,800
perry lincoln roger ames for example how
2518
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:10,000
do we respond with respect
2519
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:13,520
and compassion yes
2520
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:14,719
roger aims of course to compare to an
2521
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:17,840
archaeologist
2522
01:38:14,719 --> 01:38:19,920
in a privileged position because the
2523
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:22,080
kind of work they can do
2524
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:24,400
they can very easily do without going to
2525
01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:24,400
chime
2526
01:38:24,480 --> 01:38:31,760
so they can sort of make pronouncements
2527
01:38:28,159 --> 01:38:34,800
relatively you know without immediate
2528
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:36,480
consequences to at least their ability
2529
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:39,679
to do their scholarship
2530
01:38:36,480 --> 01:38:41,440
um that
2531
01:38:39,679 --> 01:38:43,040
they make it impossible for them to go
2532
01:38:41,440 --> 01:38:46,400
back to china
2533
01:38:43,040 --> 01:38:49,600
in in my case that's not really an
2534
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:51,520
option nor do i think it is in our
2535
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:54,800
particular field
2536
01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:59,940
the um the thing that
2537
01:38:54,800 --> 01:39:01,360
that would be most the circumstances
2538
01:38:59,940 --> 01:39:05,119
[Music]
2539
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:09,040
archaeology is fortunately one field
2540
01:39:05,119 --> 01:39:12,080
one subfield of chinese studies where
2541
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:15,119
communication among scholars is
2542
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:17,440
functioning relatively well and
2543
01:39:15,119 --> 01:39:18,320
i think under the circumstances
2544
01:39:17,440 --> 01:39:21,199
especially
2545
01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:22,320
given what is going on now a priority
2546
01:39:21,199 --> 01:39:24,639
must be placed
2547
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:27,360
on keeping the lines of communications
2548
01:39:24,639 --> 01:39:30,239
open to the extent that this is possible
2549
01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:31,119
and you know welcoming visiting scholars
2550
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:32,800
welcoming
2551
01:39:31,119 --> 01:39:34,719
the students who come here for
2552
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:38,400
instruction and
2553
01:39:34,719 --> 01:39:41,679
um and while not of course
2554
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:45,840
forgetting about the bigger issues
2555
01:39:41,679 --> 01:39:48,880
that we all realize and while not
2556
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:53,239
you know being cavalier about them
2557
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:56,800
nevertheless in this case
2558
01:39:53,239 --> 01:40:00,080
concentrating on what specifically
2559
01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:03,679
we can do in our fields
2560
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:07,600
to to
2561
01:40:03,679 --> 01:40:10,800
bring about a certain degree of normalcy
2562
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:13,550
in in this currently rather fraught
2563
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:16,400
relationship so
2564
01:40:13,550 --> 01:40:20,520
[Music]
2565
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:21,840
whatever goes beyond that probably
2566
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:25,920
[Music]
2567
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:28,960
becomes a case of um
2568
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:32,000
you know do i
2569
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:36,239
do i want to leave
2570
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:40,159
the confines of my expertise
2571
01:40:36,239 --> 01:40:41,280
and engage in journalistic grandstanding
2572
01:40:40,159 --> 01:40:44,159
about
2573
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:46,080
contemporary china i'm not a specialist
2574
01:40:44,159 --> 01:40:47,360
of contemporary china although of course
2575
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:50,239
doing archaeology
2576
01:40:47,360 --> 01:40:51,600
gives you a certain perspective on
2577
01:40:50,239 --> 01:40:54,639
contemporary china
2578
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:57,840
i have chosen to
2579
01:40:54,639 --> 01:41:01,199
use my expertise to
2580
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:04,159
to work on the community on of
2581
01:41:01,199 --> 01:41:04,639
cultural property protection to make
2582
01:41:04,159 --> 01:41:08,080
sure
2583
01:41:04,639 --> 01:41:12,239
that at least you know the illegal
2584
01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:16,239
trade in antiquities um between china
2585
01:41:12,239 --> 01:41:19,119
and um and other parts of of the world
2586
01:41:16,239 --> 01:41:20,880
gets curbed to the extent that we can do
2587
01:41:19,119 --> 01:41:22,080
it within our legal framework here in
2588
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:25,679
the u.s
2589
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:26,719
so um that the service on that committee
2590
01:41:25,679 --> 01:41:28,880
has given me
2591
01:41:26,719 --> 01:41:30,080
some opportunities to speak out on these
2592
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:32,880
concrete issues
2593
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:33,360
about which i actually know something
2594
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:36,000
about
2595
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:37,040
contemporary chinese politics i don't
2596
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:39,920
know more
2597
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:41,440
and i probably know a greatly less than
2598
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:44,560
certain journalists
2599
01:41:41,440 --> 01:41:46,239
so um to the extent that
2600
01:41:44,560 --> 01:41:47,840
everybody being human should be
2601
01:41:46,239 --> 01:41:49,920
concerned about these things
2602
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,960
i certainly should be concerned and i am
2603
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:55,119
concerned
2604
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:57,679
but to the extent of um using once
2605
01:41:55,119 --> 01:41:58,480
a professional platform to make
2606
01:41:57,679 --> 01:42:02,320
political
2607
01:41:58,480 --> 01:42:06,239
statements i think i i need to make sure
2608
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:08,719
that that whatever statements are made
2609
01:42:06,239 --> 01:42:10,480
are within the confines of where i can
2610
01:42:08,719 --> 01:42:12,560
be professionally used
2611
01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:14,159
this is a very roundabout answer and
2612
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:16,159
it's not satisfactory
2613
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:17,679
and you know sometimes one wished one
2614
01:42:16,159 --> 01:42:20,400
could be
2615
01:42:17,679 --> 01:42:20,400
less cons
2616
01:42:22,480 --> 01:42:28,800
circumspect but um but that's
2617
01:42:26,159 --> 01:42:30,560
the reality of being a china scholar at
2618
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:32,400
the moment i don't know what what do you
2619
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:34,880
think
2620
01:42:32,400 --> 01:42:36,400
me um well i'm i'm in more or less the
2621
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:40,080
same situation
2622
01:42:36,400 --> 01:42:40,960
um well no i'm not entirely in the same
2623
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,520
situation
2624
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:44,800
i'm more in the situation of people like
2625
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:48,639
lincoln ames
2626
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:49,760
who's uh whose access to chinese texts
2627
01:42:48,639 --> 01:42:53,040
is unimpeded
2628
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:54,320
you know as long as as long as i have a
2629
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:57,679
good library
2630
01:42:54,320 --> 01:43:01,040
and an internet connection i'm fine
2631
01:42:57,679 --> 01:43:04,080
but where where you know where i'm often
2632
01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:06,000
uh concerned is with the close
2633
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:09,520
colleagues and collaborators
2634
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:12,159
who are you know who would uh
2635
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:13,600
potentially be you know put at risk if i
2636
01:43:12,159 --> 01:43:15,520
were to
2637
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:17,600
get very involved in certain things i
2638
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:21,199
would always worry about that
2639
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:23,679
um and that that would
2640
01:43:21,199 --> 01:43:24,239
result in cramping my style in certain
2641
01:43:23,679 --> 01:43:28,159
ways
2642
01:43:24,239 --> 01:43:30,719
right but i'm not in the position of
2643
01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:31,199
say one of the celebrities a little bit
2644
01:43:30,719 --> 01:43:35,040
north
2645
01:43:31,199 --> 01:43:35,520
of ucla who who exists entirely in the
2646
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:39,440
mode
2647
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:42,480
of theatrical self-representation
2648
01:43:39,440 --> 01:43:43,199
and who basically have have no nothing
2649
01:43:42,480 --> 01:43:46,800
to lose
2650
01:43:43,199 --> 01:43:48,800
by you know being very vocal about
2651
01:43:46,800 --> 01:43:50,880
things that don't directly concern them
2652
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:53,119
so it's it's it's awfully complicated
2653
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:54,880
it's it's awfully complicated
2654
01:43:53,119 --> 01:43:56,880
and and of course there should be a
2655
01:43:54,880 --> 01:44:00,000
place in the world for those people
2656
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,360
i mean it's it's we you know there need
2657
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:03,760
to be people who
2658
01:44:01,360 --> 01:44:06,000
talk in this way as part of the
2659
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:08,320
pluralistic concept of voices
2660
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:10,000
that we all you know are privileged to
2661
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:13,679
have around here
2662
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:15,679
um of course there's also the
2663
01:44:13,679 --> 01:44:16,719
an issue that we already alluded to at
2664
01:44:15,679 --> 01:44:18,480
the beginning
2665
01:44:16,719 --> 01:44:20,080
namely the fact that the information
2666
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:23,440
flow out of china isn't
2667
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:24,000
always you know ideal and especially
2668
01:44:23,440 --> 01:44:27,280
about
2669
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:31,440
actually very contemporary matters and
2670
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:34,080
one stands um one stands reminded
2671
01:44:31,440 --> 01:44:35,840
of that a great deal when one reads
2672
01:44:34,080 --> 01:44:38,960
media coverage of china
2673
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:41,760
so that's another reason why those of us
2674
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:45,360
who still pretend to be academics
2675
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:48,800
should be cautious in
2676
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:51,360
making pronouncements that you know
2677
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:52,639
while politically satisfying may turn
2678
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:56,560
out to be
2679
01:44:52,639 --> 01:44:58,639
not 100 factually correct in the end
2680
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,679
and which we cannot really go out and
2681
01:44:58,639 --> 01:45:01,199
research into
2682
01:44:59,679 --> 01:45:03,280
because first of all they are not our
2683
01:45:01,199 --> 01:45:06,080
research purview and secondly we might
2684
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:07,600
not be able to get that information
2685
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:09,460
but i would say that we also need to be
2686
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:12,520
conscious about being too cautious
2687
01:45:09,460 --> 01:45:12,520
[Music]
2688
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:16,080
it's a balancing act yeah but of course
2689
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:19,360
then then there are many
2690
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:20,960
things on which you know we we we have
2691
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:23,600
opinions and probably should
2692
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:24,639
they should speak out and one has to
2693
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:27,280
pick one's fights
2694
01:45:24,639 --> 01:45:28,719
after after a certain amount of time
2695
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:30,719
right
2696
01:45:28,719 --> 01:45:32,639
um another thank you lisa for asking
2697
01:45:30,719 --> 01:45:34,639
this very personal questions it's
2698
01:45:32,639 --> 01:45:35,920
certainly one that's that i've grappled
2699
01:45:34,639 --> 01:45:39,520
with
2700
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:42,480
yeah uh like wolong writes uh hello
2701
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:44,639
hello golovk how are you doing uh writes
2702
01:45:42,480 --> 01:45:45,679
uh to ask if there are things that were
2703
01:45:44,639 --> 01:45:47,440
edited out
2704
01:45:45,679 --> 01:45:48,960
in the publication of the interviews
2705
01:45:47,440 --> 01:45:51,840
anything significant that
2706
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:54,000
is missing that your faithful readers
2707
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:58,159
would want to know about
2708
01:45:54,000 --> 01:46:01,119
it's a good question you know um
2709
01:45:58,159 --> 01:46:02,320
uh of course to say to set to a certain
2710
01:46:01,119 --> 01:46:05,679
extent oneself
2711
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:08,400
centers one safe sensors
2712
01:46:05,679 --> 01:46:09,040
and and sometimes certain formulations
2713
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:11,520
then
2714
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:12,960
somehow magically disappear and for
2715
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:16,000
instance when
2716
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:17,679
when i mentioned that i started to um
2717
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:20,000
to learn chinese when the cultural
2718
01:46:17,679 --> 01:46:22,480
revolution was going on in china
2719
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:24,400
and that there were lots of westerners
2720
01:46:22,480 --> 01:46:26,239
at the time who were truly fascinated
2721
01:46:24,400 --> 01:46:28,639
with the cultural revolution
2722
01:46:26,239 --> 01:46:31,040
and learn chinese and some some of the
2723
01:46:28,639 --> 01:46:32,880
learned chinese for that reason
2724
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:34,159
i brought that up in in one of the
2725
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,239
interviews and i
2726
01:46:34,159 --> 01:46:37,520
i think that didn't make it in and i
2727
01:46:36,239 --> 01:46:38,639
don't really know why
2728
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:40,159
because i don't think this is
2729
01:46:38,639 --> 01:46:42,159
politically sensitive at all but
2730
01:46:40,159 --> 01:46:44,080
apparently somebody thought so
2731
01:46:42,159 --> 01:46:45,520
just bringing up the cultural revolution
2732
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:48,560
of course sometimes can
2733
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:51,440
can send the wrong message but
2734
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:53,199
but of course i wasn't you know
2735
01:46:51,440 --> 01:46:54,560
criticizing certainly criticizing
2736
01:46:53,199 --> 01:46:57,760
anybody in china
2737
01:46:54,560 --> 01:47:01,040
i was if anything making a pronouncement
2738
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:01,920
on the people in germany at the time who
2739
01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:04,960
were
2740
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:07,119
probably um you know too
2741
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:09,119
impressed with certain propagandistic
2742
01:47:07,119 --> 01:47:10,080
writings that were coming out of china
2743
01:47:09,119 --> 01:47:12,080
at the time
2744
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:13,119
i wasn't one of them i that's certainly
2745
01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:15,600
not why i
2746
01:47:13,119 --> 01:47:17,199
took on the study of chinese when i was
2747
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:20,239
in my teens
2748
01:47:17,199 --> 01:47:24,080
i just i
2749
01:47:20,239 --> 01:47:25,920
had much more diffuse ideas of
2750
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:29,280
why i was interested in china i was just
2751
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:29,280
fascinated with the place
2752
01:47:30,159 --> 01:47:33,440
another thing was if that wasn't in an
2753
01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:37,280
interview that was
2754
01:47:33,440 --> 01:47:39,679
in an article i published in um
2755
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:41,119
in english which was then translated
2756
01:47:39,679 --> 01:47:43,460
into
2757
01:47:41,119 --> 01:47:44,880
into chinese in which i had
2758
01:47:43,460 --> 01:47:49,199
[Music]
2759
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:52,400
mentioned somebody's excavation campaign
2760
01:47:49,199 --> 01:47:56,800
in the 1950s that it researched a
2761
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:59,840
re-um salvage excavation
2762
01:47:56,800 --> 01:48:01,840
in in part of the huangra river valley
2763
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:04,480
that was supposed to be flooded
2764
01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:05,040
due to a dam and then the dam was was
2765
01:48:04,480 --> 01:48:07,280
never
2766
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:08,560
the the artificial lake was never filled
2767
01:48:07,280 --> 01:48:11,440
because there had been some
2768
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:12,000
wrong calculation and i mentioned that
2769
01:48:11,440 --> 01:48:16,080
fact
2770
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:19,520
um as a buy and buy that was cut out
2771
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:20,880
apparently that was that wasn't
2772
01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:23,119
thought relevant or maybe it's
2773
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:25,440
politically sensitive and sometimes
2774
01:48:23,119 --> 01:48:26,320
with surprising things that that get cut
2775
01:48:25,440 --> 01:48:30,840
out
2776
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:33,280
and um yeah and various things of that
2777
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:33,280
nature yeah
2778
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:38,639
well you know even even the operation of
2779
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:42,320
translation is always
2780
01:48:38,639 --> 01:48:44,880
a bit of a distortion too yes
2781
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:46,080
and of course unlike unlike many people
2782
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:48,400
you write directly in
2783
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,480
chinese so you you have only yourself to
2784
01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:54,480
blame
2785
01:48:50,480 --> 01:48:55,760
i am you have a colleague at chicago
2786
01:48:54,480 --> 01:48:58,000
professor shaughnessy
2787
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:58,880
who really writes directly in chinese
2788
01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:02,719
and
2789
01:48:58,880 --> 01:49:04,000
extremely well i i have written directly
2790
01:49:02,719 --> 01:49:07,679
in chinese but
2791
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:08,719
um if i don't do it when i can avoid it
2792
01:49:07,679 --> 01:49:11,040
because first of all
2793
01:49:08,719 --> 01:49:12,000
it takes me forever and the result isn't
2794
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:15,040
really
2795
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:18,080
all that great it still needs editing so
2796
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:20,639
um i um i prefer
2797
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:21,599
writing in in english which at this
2798
01:49:20,639 --> 01:49:23,920
point has become
2799
01:49:21,599 --> 01:49:24,639
sort of my most comfortable scholarly
2800
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,320
language
2801
01:49:24,639 --> 01:49:29,599
and also happens to be the one that is
2802
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:33,440
most widely read
2803
01:49:29,599 --> 01:49:35,199
right let's see well i think um
2804
01:49:33,440 --> 01:49:36,480
i think we've pretty much used up our
2805
01:49:35,199 --> 01:49:38,800
time lotor we've
2806
01:49:36,480 --> 01:49:40,639
we've had generous contributions from
2807
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:42,800
our audience members
2808
01:49:40,639 --> 01:49:44,560
uh announcements have gone out about
2809
01:49:42,800 --> 01:49:45,199
where to find the book which is a good
2810
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:48,800
thing
2811
01:49:45,199 --> 01:49:51,920
although uh i i hope that the the
2812
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:55,119
uh the the wild fever of
2813
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:56,960
uh of people rushing to purchase this
2814
01:49:55,119 --> 01:49:58,239
book will not distract them from your
2815
01:49:56,960 --> 01:50:00,159
other books
2816
01:49:58,239 --> 01:50:03,599
which are just as good even if their
2817
01:50:00,159 --> 01:50:05,840
covers are a little bit more boring
2818
01:50:03,599 --> 01:50:07,040
this one doesn't exist in english
2819
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:10,480
although they have
2820
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:13,520
so they have for some reason printed
2821
01:50:10,480 --> 01:50:16,639
at the uh at the beginning
2822
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:20,239
the english version of some kind of a
2823
01:50:16,639 --> 01:50:23,360
self statement that i sent them which is
2824
01:50:20,239 --> 01:50:25,199
um which is also there in chinese so
2825
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:28,800
there is an english portion of that
2826
01:50:25,199 --> 01:50:31,280
but that's not why
2827
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,159
non-chinese readers would necessarily
2828
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:36,960
want to
2829
01:50:32,159 --> 01:50:41,440
to to buy the book
2830
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:43,280
pages i will deposit a copy in the ucla
2831
01:50:41,440 --> 01:50:43,760
library unfortunately it hasn't been
2832
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:47,440
opened
2833
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:50,960
recently so i'm not able to do that so
2834
01:50:47,440 --> 01:50:54,000
if the librarian is is listening and
2835
01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:54,000
they don't need to buy it
2836
01:50:56,320 --> 01:51:00,880
and i had their two more short questions
2837
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:04,840
on the screen do you think
2838
01:51:00,880 --> 01:51:06,320
on that we have what what is there i
2839
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:09,199
thought
2840
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:11,040
have a question oh you know what i
2841
01:51:09,199 --> 01:51:14,320
didn't scroll down yeah
2842
01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:17,520
all right here's hanoi yeah
2843
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:20,719
all right he says i've been fascinated
2844
01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:24,239
by your marching separately to attack
2845
01:51:20,719 --> 01:51:27,760
jointly method right what is it uh not
2846
01:51:24,239 --> 01:51:30,000
way but you know tong ji right e2 tonji
2847
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:30,000
maybe
2848
01:51:39,440 --> 01:51:43,040
surprisingly difficult to do even when
2849
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:47,199
you are a general
2850
01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:48,239
no at least with pre-modern forms of
2851
01:51:47,199 --> 01:51:50,639
communication
2852
01:51:48,239 --> 01:51:51,760
now with with cell phones of course it's
2853
01:51:50,639 --> 01:51:54,960
a
2854
01:51:51,760 --> 01:51:55,440
problem so anyway says would you someday
2855
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:58,239
try
2856
01:51:55,440 --> 01:52:00,560
or is it possible to apply both within a
2857
01:51:58,239 --> 01:52:02,719
single work either a monograph or a
2858
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:05,760
chapter of a book to test how validly
2859
01:52:02,719 --> 01:52:08,880
and efficiently this methodology works
2860
01:52:05,760 --> 01:52:11,119
um well i've written one article
2861
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:13,840
which is very difficult to find except
2862
01:52:11,119 --> 01:52:16,000
i've put it on academia.edu so
2863
01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:18,080
it's actually if you if you can get
2864
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:20,960
there it's easy to find
2865
01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:21,440
where i've exemplified it when i simply
2866
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:24,800
looked
2867
01:52:21,440 --> 01:52:29,840
at bells and
2868
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:32,960
um and bronze
2869
01:52:29,840 --> 01:52:34,000
and what the the texts say about their
2870
01:52:32,960 --> 01:52:35,440
specific
2871
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:38,320
combinations their numerical
2872
01:52:35,440 --> 01:52:41,679
combinations how many tripods in a set
2873
01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:43,360
how many bells in a set and then
2874
01:52:41,679 --> 01:52:44,960
i have compared that to the
2875
01:52:43,360 --> 01:52:47,599
archaeological record
2876
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:48,480
and i've found that the texts are not
2877
01:52:47,599 --> 01:52:50,320
wrong
2878
01:52:48,480 --> 01:52:51,520
the combinations they described did
2879
01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:53,760
exist but
2880
01:52:51,520 --> 01:52:55,119
only at a certain social level during a
2881
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,719
certain period
2882
01:52:55,119 --> 01:52:58,239
so that's actually something you
2883
01:52:56,719 --> 01:52:58,639
mentioned earlier which is something
2884
01:52:58,239 --> 01:53:00,560
that
2885
01:52:58,639 --> 01:53:03,119
confucius remembered in his time
2886
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:05,280
although when confucius was alive
2887
01:53:03,119 --> 01:53:06,880
the situation has become become way more
2888
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:10,159
complicated than that
2889
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:13,360
so um it's one example of where
2890
01:53:10,159 --> 01:53:16,560
where we can you know finally strike
2891
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:19,679
jointly but of course it's in it
2892
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:22,719
it's an extremely limited um
2893
01:53:19,679 --> 01:53:25,760
application of this method i'm sure
2894
01:53:22,719 --> 01:53:26,880
one could you know write an extremely
2895
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:29,440
long
2896
01:53:26,880 --> 01:53:30,159
book on the economic history that would
2897
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:32,400
have
2898
01:53:30,159 --> 01:53:33,599
of china that would have archaeological
2899
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:37,040
chapters and
2900
01:53:33,599 --> 01:53:39,040
textually based chapters and i don't
2901
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:40,800
consider it impossible that there would
2902
01:53:39,040 --> 01:53:43,440
there might be one scholar
2903
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:43,920
who develops these joint competencies
2904
01:53:43,440 --> 01:53:47,040
and
2905
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:50,320
and writes this um
2906
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:54,320
it might be better done however in the
2907
01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:55,360
um in the form of of an edited
2908
01:53:54,320 --> 01:53:57,840
publication
2909
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:59,360
with um with various cognitive
2910
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:02,400
specialists putting that
2911
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:03,920
their talent or maybe writing together
2912
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:05,599
something that
2913
01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:07,599
that then is published under several
2914
01:54:05,599 --> 01:54:08,560
names i think that would improve the
2915
01:54:07,599 --> 01:54:10,800
quality
2916
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:12,159
these days you know our skills are so
2917
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:15,280
limited and socially
2918
01:54:12,159 --> 01:54:16,320
specialized that um great works of
2919
01:54:15,280 --> 01:54:18,560
synthesis
2920
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:19,520
i mean even the one that i'm trying to
2921
01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:22,560
write just from an
2922
01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:26,000
archaeological perspective is
2923
01:54:22,560 --> 01:54:26,000
almost impossible to achieve
2924
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:31,679
and then here's one from uh
2925
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:33,440
how do you compare the style and
2926
01:54:31,679 --> 01:54:33,920
completeness of record keeping in
2927
01:54:33,440 --> 01:54:36,639
ancient
2928
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:37,760
china with other civilizations
2929
01:54:36,639 --> 01:54:39,440
especially
2930
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:41,760
in the area of technology and
2931
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:44,880
engineering when doing your research
2932
01:54:41,760 --> 01:54:46,880
ah that's a very good question um
2933
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:49,520
you know i've not really studied the
2934
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:50,159
other civilizations in this respect and
2935
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:52,960
i would
2936
01:54:50,159 --> 01:54:53,599
i would um suspect that they are all
2937
01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:55,840
different
2938
01:54:53,599 --> 01:54:57,440
from one another in india you would have
2939
01:54:55,840 --> 01:54:59,679
absolutely nothing
2940
01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:01,119
and in the mayan area you probably
2941
01:54:59,679 --> 01:55:03,360
wouldn't have anything either
2942
01:55:01,119 --> 01:55:05,040
you would you would have written records
2943
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:07,280
but not about
2944
01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:08,480
technology and engineering whereas in
2945
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:11,280
the case of
2946
01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:12,480
um of ancient greece and wrong you you
2947
01:55:11,280 --> 01:55:14,239
do have some
2948
01:55:12,480 --> 01:55:16,320
and of course in the chinese case you
2949
01:55:14,239 --> 01:55:16,880
have some very interesting materials and
2950
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:19,840
also
2951
01:55:16,880 --> 01:55:21,760
a long sequence of them strung together
2952
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:24,080
in books that were added to
2953
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:25,920
through time and then again you can you
2954
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:28,400
can apply archaeological methods
2955
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:29,119
and see you know what of all of these
2956
01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:31,679
things that
2957
01:55:29,119 --> 01:55:32,719
are covered in these texts um were
2958
01:55:31,679 --> 01:55:35,760
actually practiced
2959
01:55:32,719 --> 01:55:39,360
at at any given time
2960
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:42,800
so in the chinese context
2961
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:44,719
i think there is
2962
01:55:42,800 --> 01:55:47,599
certainly a great deal of wealth
2963
01:55:44,719 --> 01:55:51,280
material available
2964
01:55:47,599 --> 01:55:53,119
and and i think that is also true
2965
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:55,679
in some of the other old world
2966
01:55:53,119 --> 01:55:59,119
civilizations but not in all of them
2967
01:55:55,679 --> 01:56:03,280
um but the specifics would differ
2968
01:55:59,119 --> 01:56:07,840
very very
2969
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:10,960
markedly among them that's what i can
2970
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:14,480
immediately think of
2971
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:17,920
in response to this particular question
2972
01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:21,119
yeah all right
2973
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:22,000
well lemion what do you say yes i think
2974
01:56:21,119 --> 01:56:24,320
we can
2975
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:25,119
conclude with this wonderful note from
2976
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:27,599
hallie
2977
01:56:25,119 --> 01:56:29,760
he said thank you lotta it has been my
2978
01:56:27,599 --> 01:56:33,119
honor to follow the successes
2979
01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:33,840
of your students at ucla you have really
2980
01:56:33,119 --> 01:56:37,520
inspired
2981
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:41,119
all of us thank you very much for this
2982
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:41,119
wonderful opportunity