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hello everyone
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this is Michael berry from UCLA Center
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for Chinese studies and I'm so excited
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to be hosting our first dialogue with
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the wonderful Kaiser Kaiser NGO has had
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a really dynamic career in a variety of
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different fields
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he was a rock musician in China for many
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years a member of Tong dynasty later a
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co-founder of the band trend Jo or
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spring and autumn and then he began a
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kind of second life as a journalist as a
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tech consultant he was the director of
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international communications for Baidu
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for many years was a columnist for the
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Beijing er for a full decade and then
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exactly 10 years ago in 2010 he started
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probably one of the most dynamic and
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interesting podcasts on contemporary
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China the saina cushaw which right now
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is celebrating their 10th anniversary
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and he is still going strong with sine
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akka and today we have invited Kaiser to
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reminisce about his history on the
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Chinese rock scene and so we're gonna
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kind of go back in time but first of all
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I want to thank Kaiser for taking time
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to join us thank you Michael it's really
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great to see you
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great to see you so I thought maybe we
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begin with the beginning when did we
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will start with music when did music
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come into your life when did you start
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playing guitar what was your training
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like training as an american-born
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Chinese we are sort of from birth
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obligated to take up either piano or
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violin in my case it was actually both I
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started playing piano and I was around 6
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and then switched mostly switched to
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violin by the time I was in fourth grade
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so I guess I was like 9 or so played
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violin for 3 years and then moved they
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moved me to cello because there were no
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more cellist they'd all graduate all
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sixth graders they finished school and
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so I was like the one cellist in the
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orchestra which I guess sort of got my
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hands in roughly the right stretch
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ability to be able to play guitar I
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moved to Arizona when I was 12 so to
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start starting seventh grade
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and you know fell in with a bunch of
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sort of pot smoking long-haired
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motorcycle riding ruffians who were you
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know all heavy-metal fanatics and we
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were all by seventh grade listening to
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what was then called a new wave of
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British heavy metal a lot of it I mean
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Judas Priest was but probably the band
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that I was most influenced by back then
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but also Zeppelin and discovered Rush
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and then everything went downhill from
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there I started playing guitar I
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borrowed a guitar from a kid I mean
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Kenny Cohn and found that I could you
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know I could I could play rudiments
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pretty quickly I learned it fairly
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fairly easily in junior high I didn't
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own my own guitar though until high
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school I actually bought my first guitar
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in high school
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pawned a piece of jewelry that my
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grandmother had given me and then bought
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myself a guitar so yeah by then I had
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dropped piano and you know there was no
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Orchestra after I moved there was only
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bad so I didn't play a brass instrument
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so it didn't play any of that didn't
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actually start playing in a rock band
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until pretty late into high school
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though and then what at what point did
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you first go to China and the dad yeah
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yeah hey I went there when I was 15 for
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the first time and ended up staying in
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Beijing for a couple months on my own
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just in a dorm at capital Normal
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University and it was it was one of the
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things that I had done is I brought a
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sort of a boom box with me you know
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these cassette recorders with eight you
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know size D batteries you carry around
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my shoulder and I'd have found it was
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just really fun to expose people to this
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the music that I was listening to that
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you know - Blue Oyster Cult or - you
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know - deep purple or - Led Zeppelin or
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- rush I mean it was just so shocking
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and they were they were fascinated by it
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the you know people that I met who were
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around my age and I guess at that point
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a sort of seed was planted in me that I
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might at some point come back to China
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and actually play music
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so I did that after college when I was
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in college I was at UC Berkeley I was
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playing in a band there's a full
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full-blood progressive rock band really
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you know keyboard heavy they're really
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just long compositions or the episodic
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Copts compositions and I ended up
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wrangling a an invite from the Shanghai
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youth culture exchange International
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Youth culture exchange of association to
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take my band to China to play and that
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was supposed to happen in 1987 it fell
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through but it was entirely on our end
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that it fell through the deal was we
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were supposed to pay our way there but
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once we landed
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everything would be taken care of all
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expenses all our ground transport all
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our you know flights inside of China so
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we only had to buy round-trip tickets
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but you know being starting students we
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couldn't all afford to do that and we
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ended up cancelling which was to me just
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heartbreaking and I really regret that
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it didn't happen because my life would
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have changed dramatically but I was just
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filled with this burning desire then to
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go to China and to play music as soon as
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I graduated college so soon as I
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finished I got out I'm planning you know
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ostensibly enrolled in this university
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the Beijing University of language and
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culture used to be called Beijing
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language institute and that's where I
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ended up and fortunately fell in with
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some musicians quickly on arrival and
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was that the beginnings of Tong dynasty
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or was that a separate yeah it was sort
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of the the German state of Tong dynasty
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I had met do the the cigarette and other
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guitar player the of the the first
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iteration of the bad in October of that
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year early October and it wasn't
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actually until probably February that we
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we formalized you know Tong dynasty we
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had been playing together all that
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winter just in different configurations
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he at that point was actually part of a
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band called Black Panther hey ball and a
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lot of you don't actually know that he
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was he was a member of that band but
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that band had about 17 people in it just
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a rotating cast of drummers and singers
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and guitar players that people just sort
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of come on and offstage
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it wasn't to abandon any sense that we
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would recognize it there's just sort of
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a loose Federation in transitions but
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give us give us a kind of sketch of that
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period in Beijing when you arrived what
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was the rock scene like who were the
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main players how many bands were active
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within well attending these shows so in
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1988 when I first was exposed to the
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rock scene there were already some you
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know larger-than-life figures on the
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scene one of them probably the most the
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one that still looms extraordinarily
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large was yet he had already put an
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album out in 1986 it was wildly
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successful and he himself was you know
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really lionized rightfully he's one of
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these once-in-a-generation figures who
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is you know he's truly a kind of Carlyle
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II and figure really bent history
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because he's not only an extraordinarily
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gifted musician and lyricist but he also
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just sort of managed to capture a
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certain zeitgeist of the time people
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would say Dylan and I'd say possibly
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even more influential in China than
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Dylan was in the United States he also
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is just a really great guy I mean he was
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just massively charismatic and still is
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so I have just amazing amounts of
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respect for him and I think if it
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weren't for him I mean rock in China
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would have been set back by by years
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there was nobody of his stature there
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were decent musicians I would say a guy
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like Lee Tong who is the guitarist and
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still is sort of the core of the band he
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ball fantastically good player really
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really really musical just had a just
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had all his chops in place and was
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really familiar in a way that I was odd
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with the Canon of music at that time but
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it really it owes to a few people who
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are kind of unsung who don't get the
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credit they deserve the reason why there
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were a couple of dozen people who are
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familiar with rock music a lot of it has
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to do he asked with with the foreigners
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who are there
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time but it's the the the Chinese people
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who were able to to interpret it and to
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disseminate it that really deserve
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credit one of them was the was this guy
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named Johnny Oh daiya daiya daiya is
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still pretty active in the music scene
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there he's a DJ but when I met him he he
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had a massive collection of because he
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would just sort of assiduously tape
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every bit of music he could from
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anyone's collection from any foreigner
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who he encountered so and he would you
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know write down all the liner notes you
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know he had a pretty decent command of
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English so he would write everything
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down and just study it and uhm by the
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early 90s mmm he had this massive
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collection of CDs it was just walls full
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of CDs and no one had anything like that
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I mean I may be owned you know a couple
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of dozen CDs he he had a wall of CDs
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another guy by they were talking who we
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all kind of called la omlette old rock
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and roll because he had been a tour
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guide and so therefore spoke English but
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he was also sort of I mean I think he
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was definitely on the spectrum and was
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one of those people on the spectrum who
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was kind of an idiot savant
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he had a nearly photographic memory and
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would actually memorize dictionaries he
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had this weird way though of speaking
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English by using mainly quotes from
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music by the doors I mean he would
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always just come out with these figures
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of speech like you know like a dog
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without a bone I'm searching for a hover
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he would just come out with these leaves
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we'd say that's some doors lyric yeah
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but it's appropriate here right he would
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use them like in place of chun-li in
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place it was his physics but he was he
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would study he played drums he played
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you know drums decently played a lot of
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instruments you know sort of passively
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and was you really interested in
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teaching other people so he would learn
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stewart copeland drum parts for example
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and then teach them just note for note
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to to other drummers who are
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up-and-coming
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he
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guitar parts uni with everything like no
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the pic slide starts at the fret number
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23 it doesn't start and he would he
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would do stuff like that really kind of
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obsessive and it's it's due to people
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like that I think that then it started
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to take hold in in Beijing
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you know my Beijing why do you of all
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the cities in China of course Beijing is
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the political center right which were
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the center of the film industry was but
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what do you think made it's so good to
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00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:41,380
become the cradle of rock'n'roll I think
274
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it owes to two things one of them is
275
00:11:41,380 --> 00:11:45,440
sort of that cultural as you as you say
276
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I mean because there is there's always
277
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,270
been there's no stigma against being
278
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:53,870
interested in culture it's not it wasn't
279
00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:55,640
as as you know full of Philistines as a
280
00:11:53,870 --> 00:11:57,440
city like Shanghai later we hae but yeah
281
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,970
if the rumor that in 1988 Shanghai
282
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,160
wasn't Shanghai yet right I mean
283
00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:02,960
Shanghai developed much later than
284
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,730
Beijing had so I mean if there was sort
285
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,920
of a cosmopolitan city in China at the
286
00:12:04,730 --> 00:12:10,130
time it was Beijing the other was
287
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:13,210
because that was where you had long term
288
00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:15,680
interactions between foreigners and
289
00:12:13,210 --> 00:12:17,120
interested young Chinese people those
290
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,760
foreigners were of two types they were
291
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,410
usually diplomats or children of
292
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,920
diplomats especially so you look at
293
00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:26,390
somebody like Eddie uh whose last name
294
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,620
is is kind of unpronounceable I think
295
00:12:26,390 --> 00:12:33,230
Luke Lowell swore he was the son of a
296
00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:35,750
Madagascan diplomat who got stranded in
297
00:12:33,230 --> 00:12:37,910
the sort of change between the Malagasy
298
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:41,000
Republic and back to Madagascar so he
299
00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:42,260
couldn't go home so he was there for
300
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,450
years and years and years and he's a
301
00:12:42,260 --> 00:12:46,370
fantastically good guitar player and he
302
00:12:44,450 --> 00:12:48,950
paired up with say gen and was a massive
303
00:12:46,370 --> 00:12:52,850
influence on Sweden's musical style the
304
00:12:48,950 --> 00:12:55,300
the kind of world beat style and so much
305
00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:57,950
of Hayes music comes a lot from Eddie
306
00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:59,000
then there were also journalists people
307
00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:02,840
who had been there for a long time
308
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,550
people like Graham Earnshaw who started
309
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,140
one of the very first rock bands in
310
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:08,360
Beijing they're just an expat band in
311
00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:10,730
fact he had an early encounter with with
312
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,520
sway gen which was kind of funny because
313
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:15,140
this kid played trumpet from the music
314
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,180
conservatory tried out for his band
315
00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:18,800
called the Beijing all-stars
316
00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:20,720
and they at the end of the
317
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,830
try out he said sorry locks way we just
318
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,830
don't think you have what it takes
319
00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:31,490
little did he know yeah so I think it's
320
00:13:28,940 --> 00:13:33,830
it's it's those two things the long-term
321
00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:36,560
exposure which you know facilitated all
322
00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:41,149
that taping and copying of liner notes
323
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:42,800
and just sort of understanding it was
324
00:13:41,149 --> 00:13:46,040
important that we had these people like
325
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,899
Eddie like Graham who could pass it on
326
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,620
to be blood Johnny Oh died or the two
327
00:13:47,899 --> 00:13:52,940
talking and you know one thing that's
328
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:55,820
really unique about the evolution of
329
00:13:52,940 --> 00:13:57,620
rock and China is in the West you have
330
00:13:55,820 --> 00:14:00,050
the slow progression right we start with
331
00:13:57,620 --> 00:14:03,470
Little Richard and Chuck Berry and Elvis
332
00:14:00,050 --> 00:14:05,540
The Beatles British Invasion deep purple
333
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:07,820
Led Zeppelin then you get the heavier
334
00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:09,649
stuff and that that's a slow evolution
335
00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:12,560
that takes place over the course of you
336
00:14:09,649 --> 00:14:14,500
know four or five decades and in China
337
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:16,910
of course they're doing
338
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,740
long live Chairman Mao that uses red
339
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:21,260
during that period and so it's not until
340
00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:23,089
the 80s the doors open and you get all
341
00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:26,300
that stuff you get Buddy Holly and you
342
00:14:23,089 --> 00:14:28,010
get Metallica and you get Wham and you
343
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:34,370
get Michael Jackson and Richard Claytor
344
00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:36,560
men and they're all joke I hope you can
345
00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:37,940
explain to your students but cleaner
346
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,890
members they call him the gum scene
347
00:14:37,940 --> 00:14:43,820
piensa he's this guy who plays the most
348
00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:46,070
sappy just saccharine little piano
349
00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:51,440
melodies and got fantastically famous
350
00:14:46,070 --> 00:14:56,120
he's sort of Kenny G of the of you know
351
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:58,010
and only in China only in China it was
352
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,390
the right time you couldn't get in the
353
00:14:58,010 --> 00:15:01,390
elevator without hearing that insipid
354
00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:09,680
[Music]
355
00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:13,070
what's amazing is all these things come
356
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:15,290
in simultaneously yeah and then young
357
00:15:13,070 --> 00:15:16,699
people in China in growing up in the 80s
358
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:19,130
they're hearing all this as part of
359
00:15:16,699 --> 00:15:20,540
their soundscape and whereas if you were
360
00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:22,430
growing up in America probably our
361
00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:24,680
generation you know you had these
362
00:15:22,430 --> 00:15:27,350
cliques and it was often around music so
363
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,000
you had the people yeah the metal the
364
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:31,970
people in the thrash the people who are
365
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,770
into you know new wave but try
366
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:35,900
there was you didn't have that breakdown
367
00:15:33,770 --> 00:15:36,740
everyone was kind of open to everything
368
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,570
that's right
369
00:15:36,740 --> 00:15:41,870
what do you think I think that is the
370
00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:44,540
most fascinating aspect of rocks sort of
371
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:46,670
appearance in China is this absence of
372
00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:50,840
any real understanding of the kind of
373
00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:53,900
the genre driven subcultures that you've
374
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:57,170
just described you know in America I can
375
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:59,090
sit in a cafe around the time that I
376
00:15:57,170 --> 00:16:01,900
came to China and I would have been able
377
00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:03,830
to guess what was on you know their
378
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:07,310
Walkman I guess it would have been back
379
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:09,380
then you know what was the disks in
380
00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:11,420
their in their library just by how they
381
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:14,030
were addressed or by what they were
382
00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:16,010
reading if I saw a guy sitting in a cafe
383
00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:18,200
and he had sort of pewter spider themed
384
00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:20,210
jewelry and kind of a ghostly white face
385
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:23,480
and dyed black haired and was wearing
386
00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:25,400
all black and reading you know Kafka you
387
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,170
know that he was listening to the Cure
388
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,610
in Depeche Mode and you know he was
389
00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:31,120
listening to you know sushi in the
390
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:35,090
Banshees you would have known exactly
391
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:37,070
the metal guy usually had patches on his
392
00:16:35,090 --> 00:16:41,450
denim vest which told you explicitly
393
00:16:37,070 --> 00:16:43,340
when he was listening to the punk outcry
394
00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:46,700
meaning it was the genres were obvious
395
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:48,410
and they also had they were attached to
396
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:51,800
certain so maybe socioeconomic
397
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:56,330
backgrounds that you could you could do
398
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:59,870
they were discernible not so China so
399
00:16:56,330 --> 00:17:02,570
part of what we no one had to do is sort
400
00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:04,430
of explain these things what is it what
401
00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:06,200
what you know what's the mentality of
402
00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:08,150
the metal guy what's the mentality of
403
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,590
the punk rocker what's the and some of
404
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:11,570
it is fairly intuitive some of it is
405
00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:14,030
fairly easy I think for people to pick
406
00:17:11,570 --> 00:17:16,250
up on and understand without you know
407
00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:17,540
much interpretation but a lot of it was
408
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:18,770
you know obscure because you know some
409
00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:22,880
of them come from the same socioeconomic
410
00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:24,260
backgrounds and yet the results are very
411
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,920
different you know the musical tastes
412
00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:30,500
that are formed are radically different
413
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:34,190
so I think there were some people for in
414
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:37,820
China and I would again sites again for
415
00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:40,550
whom the the kind of acculturation to
416
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:43,130
rock music wasn't that far off from
417
00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:45,260
organic it's almost like you know he
418
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:45,950
actually did start by listening to Dylan
419
00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:48,350
in the beetle
420
00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:51,170
and then it was compressed but it was
421
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:55,510
sort of in order and it's interesting
422
00:17:51,170 --> 00:17:58,490
because he then ended up with a kind of
423
00:17:55,510 --> 00:18:01,100
almost a genre purity that you didn't
424
00:17:58,490 --> 00:18:03,020
often find in a lot of other people for
425
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:04,700
so many of the other people there was
426
00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:07,820
this there was this really kind of
427
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:09,920
promiscuous style in the music they
428
00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:12,250
listen to it would come from all over
429
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:19,430
the place and because they didn't know
430
00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:21,620
the the kind of let's call them the the
431
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:24,110
rules that were associated with each
432
00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:28,220
genre they wouldn't end up with very
433
00:18:24,110 --> 00:18:29,870
strange blended genres that didn't
434
00:18:28,220 --> 00:18:32,060
wouldn't make sense in American context
435
00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:34,750
this doesn't come from the 80s but this
436
00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:37,670
is in the early 2000s this is something
437
00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:41,930
that I started to notice with a lot of
438
00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:43,730
these the punk guys um the punk guys the
439
00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:45,680
metal guys didn't get along so well
440
00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:47,660
right you know they were always sort of
441
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,660
at odds with each other and a lot of it
442
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:53,120
was it did boil down to this contempt
443
00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:55,430
that the metal guys had that you the
444
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:58,010
punk guys didn't know how to play
445
00:18:55,430 --> 00:19:01,810
they knew three chords you know they
446
00:18:58,010 --> 00:19:05,690
were all big major bar chords and and
447
00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:06,920
they you know dressed a certain way or
448
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:11,780
whatever they they weren't very
449
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:13,760
committed to the music one day we were
450
00:19:11,780 --> 00:19:16,370
riding down after soundcheck from a
451
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,440
festival and it was my band at the time
452
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:21,140
twin Co springing on him and a band
453
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:24,020
called brain failure which was one of
454
00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:27,710
the better-known punk bands and it I was
455
00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:29,990
noticing how well we all had black
456
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:32,780
leather jackets and we all had vinyl gig
457
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:34,460
bags for our guitars but our black
458
00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:37,610
leather jackets were unadorned and
459
00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:40,220
theirs were all you know covered in
460
00:19:37,610 --> 00:19:43,010
stickers or yeah patches or buttons or
461
00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:44,960
whatever our bags were similarly
462
00:19:43,010 --> 00:19:49,820
unadorned and they're sort of covered in
463
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:51,380
stickers we all had abnormal hair ours
464
00:19:49,820 --> 00:19:53,810
was all straight and long they block it
465
00:19:51,380 --> 00:19:57,470
this was all multicolored and very very
466
00:19:53,810 --> 00:19:58,240
short or you know up in in cockscombs or
467
00:19:57,470 --> 00:20:03,730
in
468
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:06,130
and we sat on separate aisles of the bus
469
00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:07,720
as we made our way down until one of the
470
00:20:06,130 --> 00:20:09,940
guitar players leaned over to me and he
471
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:13,630
suddenly said what do you think of
472
00:20:09,940 --> 00:20:15,430
Marshall Apps and then he broke into
473
00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:16,720
this long confession how long I know how
474
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:17,770
you metal guys think that we actually
475
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,570
don't know how to play our instruments
476
00:20:17,770 --> 00:20:22,060
but you know what I actually listened to
477
00:20:19,570 --> 00:20:24,340
I don't really listen to punk I listen
478
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:27,010
to Steve Vai I listen to it I actually
479
00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:30,550
like to play I like you know and say if
480
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:34,030
there's this weird moment of conjunction
481
00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:36,190
between us but what I started realizing
482
00:20:34,030 --> 00:20:38,860
is that there isn't a lot of genre
483
00:20:36,190 --> 00:20:41,470
conformity and that's a good thing
484
00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:44,380
I that you can you have bands like
485
00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:47,650
demerit punk band aesthetically very
486
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:51,340
punk band that will break into these
487
00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:53,830
like dual long extended guitar solos
488
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:55,480
with you know harmonies and and really a
489
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:58,570
lot of intricacies in the middle of a
490
00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:01,030
three chord punk song and you just never
491
00:20:58,570 --> 00:21:03,010
expect that and you know in a punk show
492
00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:06,040
in the United States and it makes for a
493
00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:08,190
different kind of wonderful type of
494
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:14,890
music because there aren't these strict
495
00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:17,170
genre allegiances so that's that's one
496
00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:19,930
of the beautiful things about this
497
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:22,810
process of trance culturation is that
498
00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:24,580
that plant that you've pulled out of the
499
00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:27,610
soil in North America and stuck in the
500
00:21:24,580 --> 00:21:31,480
ground in China yields very different
501
00:21:27,610 --> 00:21:34,510
fruit yeah different flowers yeah yeah
502
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,890
and so when you were first joining Tong
503
00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:38,800
dynasty can you talk a little bit about
504
00:21:35,890 --> 00:21:41,470
how the band developed their own sound
505
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,600
their identity their style because I
506
00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:45,520
mean the big bands at that time there
507
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,280
was hate ball right black panther those
508
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,950
guys sweet Jen and then there was a few
509
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,750
solo artists like the way and Lou Young
510
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:54,520
and a couple people like that each one
511
00:21:52,750 --> 00:22:00,340
had its own kind of niche some of them
512
00:21:54,520 --> 00:22:02,770
were war yes you know but can you talk
513
00:22:00,340 --> 00:22:05,550
about how Tong dynasty found its sound
514
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:08,020
yeah yeah for sure
515
00:22:05,550 --> 00:22:10,320
you know there was two principal people
516
00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:12,160
in Tong dynasty were myself and Dean and
517
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:15,850
we
518
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:19,690
uh had a lot of music that we listen to
519
00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:22,840
in common we both liked really guitar
520
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:24,310
heavy heavy music but we were both also
521
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,460
really into a lot of progressive rock
522
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:28,990
and so we what we liked the things that
523
00:22:27,460 --> 00:22:31,420
we liked about the music that we liked
524
00:22:28,990 --> 00:22:34,690
where you know the Chinese word is dot
525
00:22:31,420 --> 00:22:37,930
she just sort of a grandeur to it we
526
00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:40,750
wanted that we we wanted it to be
527
00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:42,250
something that represented a certain
528
00:22:40,750 --> 00:22:46,990
type of sort of northern Chinese
529
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:49,690
masculinity you know a lot of it came
530
00:22:46,990 --> 00:22:51,600
from I had the idea for this band for a
531
00:22:49,690 --> 00:22:54,010
long time I thought you know what
532
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,250
Chinese music which is fundamentally
533
00:22:54,010 --> 00:22:58,630
pentatonic has that overlap with a lot
534
00:22:57,250 --> 00:23:03,430
of rock which is blues based and
535
00:22:58,630 --> 00:23:04,840
therefore also basically pentatonic you
536
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:08,500
know there are really cool things you
537
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,590
can do with harmonies that are based on
538
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:13,210
just bait rudimentary fourths and fifths
539
00:23:10,590 --> 00:23:14,320
if you if that's sort of an interval
540
00:23:13,210 --> 00:23:16,390
that you're constantly using just
541
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:20,170
harmonize with it it sounds very
542
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:21,790
distinctly Chinese but it also rocks so
543
00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:23,830
I knew that there was this something
544
00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:27,220
that you could do that would combine
545
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:29,020
features of metal with traditional
546
00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:31,660
Chinese music and that's what we were
547
00:23:29,020 --> 00:23:37,450
going for so that that idea was already
548
00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:40,300
present and I also sort of knew that we
549
00:23:37,450 --> 00:23:41,830
needed some way to sneak it into China
550
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:43,900
to make it something that would be
551
00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:47,500
acceptable to a broader audience in
552
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:50,320
China and maybe get them interested in
553
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:54,340
in that genre that Western very
554
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:56,260
distinctly western genre of music so the
555
00:23:54,340 --> 00:23:58,690
name of the band was actually a big
556
00:23:56,260 --> 00:24:01,540
piece of deciding what the look the
557
00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:05,200
sound and the the the style of music
558
00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:07,240
would be once we came up with that name
559
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,860
I actually came up with that name a long
560
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,130
time before I even met to you I just
561
00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:11,260
thought
562
00:24:09,130 --> 00:24:13,860
one day I'll have a band called conga
563
00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:17,320
and here's what it will represent and
564
00:24:13,860 --> 00:24:20,500
what the idea was was that you know the
565
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:23,080
tongue was he's considered one of the
566
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:24,790
greatest dynasties and why not only was
567
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,920
it sort of expansive not in the
568
00:24:24,790 --> 00:24:29,390
militaristic sense but
569
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:32,190
was it was expensive it was it was Bob
570
00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:34,470
open and cosmopolitan it absorbed
571
00:24:32,190 --> 00:24:37,740
influences from all over the world but
572
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:41,390
it was also quite you know grand right
573
00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:44,430
it was expansive in the other sense
574
00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:47,850
various moments quite militaristic even
575
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:50,270
but it was you know the apex of the the
576
00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:53,460
Chinese Imperium really in so many ways
577
00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:57,270
it was also one with the greatest poetic
578
00:24:53,460 --> 00:25:00,870
traditions so it had that kind of Wu
579
00:24:57,270 --> 00:25:03,510
Shuang Shan kind of ideal going on this
580
00:25:00,870 --> 00:25:06,300
marriage of civic and and martial virtue
581
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:08,280
and we wanted to do that with a band we
582
00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:10,850
wanted it to be at once kind of poetic
583
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:17,280
and kind of you know beautiful but also
584
00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:19,200
kick-ass right so when we you know
585
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,670
looked around for other members we
586
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,520
actually did look for even a certain
587
00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:25,950
type you know we didn't want the small
588
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,020
skinny scrawny guy with short hair we
589
00:25:25,950 --> 00:25:30,840
wanted the tall robust guy with long
590
00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:32,640
hair you know we wanted somebody who had
591
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,430
a little panache when they played and
592
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,480
could really you know kind of you know
593
00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:39,330
zoom around the fretboard and have a
594
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:42,480
really good time and so that was that
595
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:46,200
was the basic idea of the band and it
596
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:48,740
could conformed to that in you know
597
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,240
lyrically stylistically everything yeah
598
00:25:48,740 --> 00:25:53,850
and in rock-and-roll of course has a
599
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,640
long history as protest music going back
600
00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:58,620
to Dylan yeah and over the decades there
601
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,180
were many artists that have used their
602
00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:03,870
platform to kind of say something about
603
00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:05,970
politics about society in China when you
604
00:26:03,870 --> 00:26:07,740
guys first started you know late 80s
605
00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:09,240
early 90s this is right around the time
606
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:11,640
what was happening in Tiananmen the
607
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,440
Tiananmen Square protest movement yeah
608
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,540
hey Jen if you look at his lyrics
609
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,540
there's this kind of very interesting
610
00:26:15,540 --> 00:26:21,120
political ambiguity that he plays with
611
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:23,310
with the you know the red cloth yeah
612
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:26,250
Tong dynasty how did you guys navigate
613
00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:28,800
the correction and engagement with
614
00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:30,330
politics with protest with saying
615
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,150
something about what was happening in
616
00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:35,670
society and doing it way that also isn't
617
00:26:33,150 --> 00:26:37,500
gonna get you guys suppressed and yeah I
618
00:26:35,670 --> 00:26:39,190
think that there was in in our case
619
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:42,900
there was just very little this
620
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:46,600
to do that to say any of that I think
621
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:49,270
when you look at both demo and John to
622
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,480
you who are you know principal members
623
00:26:49,270 --> 00:26:56,410
of the band neither of them was was very
624
00:26:52,480 --> 00:27:00,430
engaged with politics they may things
625
00:26:56,410 --> 00:27:02,080
like you know we actually feel like we
626
00:27:00,430 --> 00:27:04,210
are very aligned with this idea of
627
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,550
reform and opening you know isn't that
628
00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:08,830
kind of the idea of the band isn't you
629
00:27:06,550 --> 00:27:10,900
know the idea that we want to be open
630
00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:14,500
and through openness we will attain
631
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:18,610
greatness and and they they would say
632
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:20,350
things like look you know I I i I'm an
633
00:27:18,610 --> 00:27:22,360
art student I went to art school I
634
00:27:20,350 --> 00:27:24,190
didn't study politics I don't understand
635
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,960
politics I can't name all the members of
636
00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:28,210
the Politburo Standing Committee I don't
637
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,910
know I mean I have my own personal
638
00:27:28,210 --> 00:27:34,000
experiences and those are you know
639
00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:36,190
sufficient to create my art junk you you
640
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,050
would say look I was a high jumper and I
641
00:27:36,190 --> 00:27:40,800
only graduated junior high what do I
642
00:27:38,050 --> 00:27:43,600
know about what do I really know about
643
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,510
about politics and they were actually a
644
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,390
fairly conservative interestingly they
645
00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:51,310
did not you know take a strong side in
646
00:27:49,390 --> 00:27:53,080
in 89 during the student movement they'd
647
00:27:51,310 --> 00:27:55,210
never joined marches they went and
648
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,060
observed an awful lot but they never
649
00:27:55,210 --> 00:28:00,820
felt really compelled to join in and I
650
00:27:58,060 --> 00:28:05,160
won't say which of them but some were
651
00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:05,160
very like critical of the protesters
652
00:28:05,370 --> 00:28:10,200
there there was this real sense that
653
00:28:10,260 --> 00:28:14,890
there was almost like the colony
654
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,510
resentment a resentment of the
655
00:28:14,890 --> 00:28:19,090
expectation that rock should be
656
00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:21,040
political this was something that I
657
00:28:19,090 --> 00:28:22,720
heard again and again not just within my
658
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:27,720
men but there were others as well who
659
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:32,260
said who said that we need to a p--
660
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:34,480
everything about about the emergence of
661
00:28:32,260 --> 00:28:35,980
rock this is a different context this is
662
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,950
not the United States and this is not
663
00:28:35,980 --> 00:28:41,140
the 1960s you know why should it be and
664
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:42,400
I mean for my part I I can see where
665
00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:44,380
they're coming from I also think that
666
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:48,360
you know once in a while somebody does
667
00:28:44,380 --> 00:28:51,300
come along who is able to make I think
668
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:54,870
compelling and authentic pull
669
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:56,490
political statements if you will or to
670
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:58,440
to raise political questions of
671
00:28:56,490 --> 00:29:00,450
questions that are ultimately political
672
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,630
in the way that they're construed like
673
00:29:00,450 --> 00:29:08,160
so again but not everyone is it's we Jen
674
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:10,920
I think that I win it when it's done and
675
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:14,100
done well and done right it's it's it
676
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,280
really does have tremendous power when
677
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:20,370
it's done in aptly or done just sort of
678
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:23,840
as an afterthought I think people can
679
00:29:20,370 --> 00:29:26,670
can tell and if it's not authentic
680
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:30,270
people can tell it wouldn't have been
681
00:29:26,670 --> 00:29:31,380
authentic if it had come from us you
682
00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:34,650
know another really interesting
683
00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:37,980
difference between Chinese rock music
684
00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:40,410
and rock music in the West is again I'll
685
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:42,060
go back to our generation probably you
686
00:29:40,410 --> 00:29:45,450
know if you grew up in the 70s and the
687
00:29:42,060 --> 00:29:47,940
80s rock music was probably if not the
688
00:29:45,450 --> 00:29:50,550
dominant music form it was definitely in
689
00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:53,700
the top one or two in China when Rock
690
00:29:50,550 --> 00:29:55,380
does come in the 80s and the 90s it's
691
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:57,420
always relegated to a relatively
692
00:29:55,380 --> 00:29:59,580
marginalized place in society
693
00:29:57,420 --> 00:30:02,100
zoomy pop music yeah we're talking
694
00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:04,680
Mandopop Cantopop the four heavenly
695
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:07,650
kings from Hong Kong
696
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,750
why is it that Chinese rock music you
697
00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:12,470
feel has always had such a difficult
698
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:16,350
time really getting a foothold in
699
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:18,330
mainstream market and yeah I think that
700
00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:22,460
it has a lot to do with just sort of a
701
00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:24,390
good core Chinese aesthetic which is not
702
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:26,160
it either
703
00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:29,520
there's it's rare that you find pieces
704
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:32,190
of music that are aggressive and
705
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,740
dissonant and you know thundering it's
706
00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:36,450
it's very rare if you look through the
707
00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:39,450
entire Sur Chinese repertoire that
708
00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:42,840
that's it's hard to find anything like
709
00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:44,940
that it doesn't really connect with the
710
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:49,730
traditional Chinese temperament which is
711
00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:54,360
sort of you know slow-paced and melodic
712
00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:57,480
heavily melodic it's it's aesthetically
713
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,370
just kind of divergent from from what
714
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,940
you have in mainstream Chinese culture
715
00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:04,130
whereas the kind of syrupy canto and
716
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,590
Mandopop
717
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:13,250
fits it pretty well it's more than that
718
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:15,740
I think that no most Chinese people
719
00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:17,630
because of the moment that we've been in
720
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:23,150
I mean the entire period to perform an
721
00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:26,360
opening has been a period of very kind
722
00:31:23,150 --> 00:31:29,179
of focused material acquisition right I
723
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:32,510
mean it's it's primitive capital
724
00:31:29,179 --> 00:31:35,440
accumulation I mean it's it's people are
725
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:38,090
very focused on their material lives
726
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,500
where music has a place or has had a
727
00:31:38,090 --> 00:31:43,789
place I mean it's starting to change
728
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:47,450
I believe this new generation but back
729
00:31:43,789 --> 00:31:49,309
then people had still you know poverty
730
00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:50,720
was not far in the rearview mirror at
731
00:31:49,309 --> 00:31:55,460
all I mean a lot of people were still
732
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:57,620
experiencing it where music was there at
733
00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:59,330
all it was entertainment it was
734
00:31:57,620 --> 00:32:02,150
background it was wallpaper
735
00:31:59,330 --> 00:32:04,549
it wasn't art it wasn't something that
736
00:32:02,150 --> 00:32:08,419
people would get obsessive about they
737
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:10,669
might get obsessed with a musician but
738
00:32:08,419 --> 00:32:14,539
it was about his appearance or about his
739
00:32:10,669 --> 00:32:19,760
you know his celebrity stature and
740
00:32:14,539 --> 00:32:21,110
rarely about the music qua music and I
741
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,820
don't think that that's that's something
742
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:25,270
there's something wrong with China for
743
00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:30,470
having been like that I think it's
744
00:32:25,270 --> 00:32:33,320
simply the stage it's at but that said I
745
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:35,650
think you can't actually look at the
746
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:38,450
role of music in Chinese civilization
747
00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:40,789
further back and find that there are
748
00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:43,340
some reasons I mean you think about a
749
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:45,380
composition that you know every Chinese
750
00:32:43,340 --> 00:32:49,990
person would be familiar with something
751
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:52,580
like you know ambushed but this was a
752
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:53,990
marvelous people composition which is
753
00:32:52,580 --> 00:32:56,510
probably the closest thing to having
754
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:59,270
metal ever in Chinese history you know
755
00:32:56,510 --> 00:33:01,460
it requires a lot of dexterity it's it's
756
00:32:59,270 --> 00:33:03,080
you have to be quite quite a people
757
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:07,220
master to be able to pull it off well
758
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,990
and yet no one knows who wrote that very
759
00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:11,480
few people could name a single person
760
00:33:08,990 --> 00:33:14,630
who is famous for having performed or
761
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:17,750
recorded it whereas everyone in the
762
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:20,510
world knows the names of the dozen
763
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:22,880
everyone in the West certainly knows you
764
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:24,680
know 20 or more composers off the top of
765
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,240
their head they can just rattle them off
766
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,840
you know Tchaikovsky Stravinsky
767
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:33,280
Beethoven Bach Brahms you know handle it
768
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:36,770
we know the names of composers because
769
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,950
in China music was oath to sorts right
770
00:33:36,770 --> 00:33:42,710
it was either courtly music which was
771
00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:45,380
really rarefied and had not changed
772
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:47,390
essentially from the warring States
773
00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:50,120
period and it was deliberately kept that
774
00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:51,890
way and that was only for a ritual and
775
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,170
it was it was only heard within the
776
00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:57,590
confines of the unit court or there was
777
00:33:54,170 --> 00:33:58,970
popular music in popular musicians you
778
00:33:57,590 --> 00:34:02,510
know the itinerant travelling musicians
779
00:33:58,970 --> 00:34:05,800
who would come they were of a social
780
00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:08,960
status that was you know down there with
781
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,580
prostitutes right they were actors or
782
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,040
prostitutes they none of them achieved
783
00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:15,639
any kind of fame where you do know the
784
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,919
names of people who played music
785
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:21,379
they are often secondarily musicians so
786
00:34:18,919 --> 00:34:23,929
we all know that the founding emperor of
787
00:34:21,379 --> 00:34:25,550
the Song Dynasty was an action the
788
00:34:23,929 --> 00:34:29,360
second Emperor of the Song Dynasty was
789
00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:31,700
an accomplished zither player but I mean
790
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:34,310
we all maybe know that the three
791
00:34:31,700 --> 00:34:38,120
kingdoms general Joey was also but he
792
00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:40,159
knew they were primarily something else
793
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:43,700
they were statesmen or they were poets
794
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:47,690
or they were scholars who also happened
795
00:34:43,700 --> 00:34:50,960
to be musicians secondarily nobody is
796
00:34:47,690 --> 00:34:51,710
remembered from history primarily as a
797
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,940
musician
798
00:34:51,710 --> 00:35:02,120
whereas who what else was vogner what
799
00:34:55,940 --> 00:35:04,400
else was you know Paganini right it's
800
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,500
it's a very different Malou that it came
801
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,440
out of I think that that has made a big
802
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:12,320
difference you see that changing the
803
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,730
last couple of years and I do I do I'm
804
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:18,110
starting to see that change I think that
805
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:20,560
well for one thing you know we're in a
806
00:35:18,110 --> 00:35:24,650
different stage economically right now
807
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:28,550
people have a lot more disposable income
808
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:31,630
and the accessibility that the Internet
809
00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:34,910
has given to music has changed but
810
00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:37,730
it's definitely changing but I think
811
00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:39,740
that rock lost its opportunity raw Rock
812
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:44,560
had a window I think in there in the
813
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:48,140
1990s when it could have really shaped
814
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,910
tastes where it could have significantly
815
00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:52,400
dictated the tastes of the mainstream I
816
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:54,560
don't actually blame government
817
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,690
censorship or anything like that for its
818
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,250
having failed with you so I think that
819
00:35:56,690 --> 00:36:00,980
there were a couple of reasons one is
820
00:35:58,250 --> 00:36:04,070
simply that when at the moment that
821
00:36:00,980 --> 00:36:06,680
rocky merged in China it was a fort for
822
00:36:04,070 --> 00:36:11,540
Rock's own purposes a very bad moment
823
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:13,370
because there was so much eagerness in
824
00:36:11,540 --> 00:36:17,690
especially the Western media to pay
825
00:36:13,370 --> 00:36:19,550
attention to it and there were just not
826
00:36:17,690 --> 00:36:22,550
enough musicians out there you know to
827
00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:25,040
constitute a real competitive landscape
828
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:28,370
so people with really middling skills
829
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,950
like me were able to play in in in
830
00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:34,580
pretty good bands in in well-known bands
831
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:36,650
and we all suffered severe limitations I
832
00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:38,510
mean for me I was just a rank amateur
833
00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:40,400
and was that it was something that I
834
00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:42,680
just did as a hobby and I just looked
835
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:46,160
into it was like you know landing on a
836
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:49,070
low gravity planet because the just the
837
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,720
bar wasn't very high I mean I just there
838
00:36:49,070 --> 00:36:52,580
were two other musicians who could play
839
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,590
very well at all so somebody who had
840
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:56,960
just really stubborn stubbornly middling
841
00:36:54,590 --> 00:36:59,360
skills was able to make something of
842
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,730
himself that was true of a lot of these
843
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,460
these people they they attained some
844
00:37:01,730 --> 00:37:06,590
modicum of Fame and just started to
845
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:08,900
enjoy that and not really you know they
846
00:37:06,590 --> 00:37:11,480
wouldn't wood shop they wouldn't you
847
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:15,440
know I'm sorry they wouldn't woodshed
848
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,880
and really get better and that's that's
849
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,710
that's one of the problem they had you
850
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,680
know six songs they could play perform
851
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:23,360
as an ensemble and that was it they
852
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,610
didn't have the depth they didn't have
853
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:28,760
the the talent to take it to the next
854
00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:30,350
level and unfortunately they stood in
855
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,170
the way of others because they achieve
856
00:37:30,350 --> 00:37:34,970
so he talked about rock and China and
857
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:36,680
then there were only five names that
858
00:37:34,970 --> 00:37:39,380
would ever come up you know you'd talk
859
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,850
about sweet Jen hey Bao Tong Chow do it
860
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:42,380
and then that was it
861
00:37:40,850 --> 00:37:44,830
who else could you name after that you
862
00:37:42,380 --> 00:37:47,200
know yeah maybe if you really know yours
863
00:37:44,830 --> 00:37:51,130
shuwei or Jung true but that was about
864
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,360
it well bro right so yeah Cobra was
865
00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:55,720
around for a very long time they were
866
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:58,330
great does he then all the first
867
00:37:55,720 --> 00:38:00,790
all-female band yeah how about your
868
00:37:58,330 --> 00:38:02,980
second band a second major band fun Cho
869
00:38:00,790 --> 00:38:05,830
spring and autumn how did that ban form
870
00:38:02,980 --> 00:38:08,290
why did you leave Tong dynasty can you
871
00:38:05,830 --> 00:38:10,540
talk a little bit about I left hyung
872
00:38:08,290 --> 00:38:12,520
nasty because well I mean there's there
873
00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:14,590
was sort of the immediate reason which
874
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,900
was at the Embassy bombing had happened
875
00:38:14,590 --> 00:38:19,570
and I was on the wrong side politically
876
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:22,060
of that at a very bad moment but that
877
00:38:19,570 --> 00:38:23,710
was only sort of the straw that broke
878
00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:27,100
the back there there was a lot of
879
00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:29,200
tension we I used to joke that we had a
880
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:31,870
Yoko Ono problem and it's kind of true
881
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,300
there was a woman who was do lose on any
882
00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:37,150
an Afghan girlfriend who was you know
883
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:38,970
wanting to manage us and I've come to
884
00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:43,630
believe that she was in many ways right
885
00:38:38,970 --> 00:38:45,280
I was somebody who always had something
886
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:47,200
else to fall back on I had my American
887
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,450
passport and I had you know advanced
888
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,730
degree and I knew that there were other
889
00:38:49,450 --> 00:38:54,430
career paths that were open to me and
890
00:38:51,730 --> 00:38:56,500
then in fact maybe my having played in a
891
00:38:54,430 --> 00:38:58,870
metal band in China would even open up
892
00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:02,440
more career paths to me I didn't depend
893
00:38:58,870 --> 00:39:04,360
on it as my livelihood and so I was
894
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,490
always pushing this line of no let's
895
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,650
play the music that we want to play the
896
00:39:06,490 --> 00:39:11,800
music that that you know speaks to us
897
00:39:08,650 --> 00:39:13,900
personally and so who cares if it's 11
898
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,620
minutes long and who cares if it has you
899
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:21,400
know 86 different motifs across in 11
900
00:39:17,620 --> 00:39:23,380
minutes and that was never gonna be
901
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:27,250
commercially viable and I guess part of
902
00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:29,830
us knew it so I don't think I was very
903
00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:32,320
responsible in in constantly pushing
904
00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:35,520
that I think I was you know being a
905
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,510
little bit of a dilettante and I
906
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,980
probably should have been more sensitive
907
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:41,530
for that I think that was there in the
908
00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:44,140
background and I'm you know I'm glad
909
00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:45,940
that I left I think that it ultimately
910
00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:49,180
wouldn't have been a good fit with me
911
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:53,740
staying I wasn't at that point ready to
912
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:55,570
change my mind about these things while
913
00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:57,180
I was playing in Tong dynasty I had met
914
00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:59,849
a musician when we were tour
915
00:39:57,180 --> 00:40:01,650
in Quin mean and I stayed up all night
916
00:39:59,849 --> 00:40:04,589
with him just jamming on to acoustics
917
00:40:01,650 --> 00:40:06,210
and I found like he had he was playing a
918
00:40:04,589 --> 00:40:09,420
kind of music that I really wanted to
919
00:40:06,210 --> 00:40:14,700
play it was even more Chinese inflected
920
00:40:09,420 --> 00:40:16,380
he had a kind of wild untrained sounding
921
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:20,190
voice it's not all sound like you know
922
00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:24,900
the voice he'd hear from a shepherd boy
923
00:40:20,190 --> 00:40:27,270
at a mountainside and we just clicked
924
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:29,130
and knew that night that we would
925
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:31,140
eventually work together at some point
926
00:40:29,130 --> 00:40:33,809
his name was Jung Mong he was playing
927
00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:36,569
fronting a band called dc-10 seventh day
928
00:40:33,809 --> 00:40:39,180
in Quin being a couple years later their
929
00:40:36,569 --> 00:40:40,589
band came to Beijing and after arriving
930
00:40:39,180 --> 00:40:43,020
here and finding they had real
931
00:40:40,589 --> 00:40:45,450
differences they broke up so young one
932
00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:48,180
came to a Tong dynasty show and he found
933
00:40:45,450 --> 00:40:49,380
me and he started lobbying now Lawson
934
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:51,089
Tong dynasty show I think it was a
935
00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:54,210
tribute show it was after I had left Han
936
00:40:51,089 --> 00:40:56,640
Dynasty and and and started lobbying me
937
00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:58,710
to to form a band with him and by that
938
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,240
time I had left the band I was on to it
939
00:40:58,710 --> 00:41:02,099
under the next thing I was working for
940
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,040
an Internet company and just thinking
941
00:41:02,099 --> 00:41:06,960
man I'm rusty I'm just I don't think I I
942
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,869
can do this again I'm not sure I want to
943
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:12,420
but he kept coming over he you know he'd
944
00:41:09,869 --> 00:41:15,359
say look just let me come over and talk
945
00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:16,619
to you absolutely need bring a guitar
946
00:41:15,359 --> 00:41:19,170
and he'd show me stuff that he was
947
00:41:16,619 --> 00:41:21,630
working on and I finally it's like I
948
00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:23,130
can't resist I grab the card join in and
949
00:41:21,630 --> 00:41:25,500
then I you know laid down some
950
00:41:23,130 --> 00:41:26,819
conditions said look I have a job I am
951
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:28,200
you can't count on me to do any
952
00:41:26,819 --> 00:41:29,790
promotion I'll fill up to all the
953
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,339
rehearsals all right music I'll show up
954
00:41:29,790 --> 00:41:34,589
it all shows but I can't take a lead in
955
00:41:32,339 --> 00:41:38,069
you know making the band famous or
956
00:41:34,589 --> 00:41:39,720
whatever and he brought in another great
957
00:41:38,069 --> 00:41:43,079
guitar player this guy in Khojaly
958
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,520
who played in a band and then I'm called
959
00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:46,950
suffocated they're still going they're a
960
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:50,640
kind of deathy thrash metal band they're
961
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:53,099
really really good and we the two of us
962
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,720
really clicked as well so three of us
963
00:41:53,099 --> 00:41:56,940
formed the core of the band picked up a
964
00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:00,569
bass player and had this fantastic great
965
00:41:56,940 --> 00:42:03,720
drummer in our early days who was also a
966
00:42:00,569 --> 00:42:06,119
part of DT Kent we've had you know only
967
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:08,480
one a couple of blind up changes bass
968
00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:10,770
player and the drummer had changed in
969
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:16,440
2003 and then in in
970
00:42:10,770 --> 00:42:22,620
2008 but after the since then spin Wow
971
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:27,420
I mean we had no politics no issues no
972
00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:29,730
weird egos it was just fun but we also
973
00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:33,180
didn't have a ton of ambition we just
974
00:42:29,730 --> 00:42:35,370
you know like to occasionally tour we
975
00:42:33,180 --> 00:42:37,470
recorded only one album we rehearsed a
976
00:42:35,370 --> 00:42:41,160
lot played a lot of songs really enjoyed
977
00:42:37,470 --> 00:42:44,370
each other's company but it never really
978
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,290
took off I'm glad though that I mean the
979
00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:49,560
people who liked us really liked us and
980
00:42:46,290 --> 00:42:53,220
I'm very proud of music that we did very
981
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:55,200
very different bad now I want to switch
982
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:57,030
gears for a minute course in this
983
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,130
foreign teen time it's hard to have
984
00:42:57,030 --> 00:43:00,510
interactive events but I did reach out
985
00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:01,860
to some of our students and asked them
986
00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:04,530
if they had questions for you and so I
987
00:43:01,860 --> 00:43:12,510
got a couple student questions some of
988
00:43:04,530 --> 00:43:14,580
those so this is from you Tom Thumb one
989
00:43:12,510 --> 00:43:15,900
of our students here at UCLA and he had
990
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:17,730
a couple questions I'll start with the
991
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,830
first one what does Kaiser think about
992
00:43:17,730 --> 00:43:22,110
the current rock music culture in China
993
00:43:19,830 --> 00:43:24,420
in other words how does he perceive the
994
00:43:22,110 --> 00:43:25,770
future of Chinese rock music does he
995
00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:27,960
think he has the potential to develop
996
00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:31,160
into something mainstream with the help
997
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,570
of shows like you do a shot in
998
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,060
personally I'm a huge fan of new pants
999
00:43:33,570 --> 00:43:38,070
and suet before they went on the show
1000
00:43:36,060 --> 00:43:41,070
but I've noticed huge changes in their
1001
00:43:38,070 --> 00:43:43,590
social shows social media but any way
1002
00:43:41,070 --> 00:43:46,620
that I guess the core here is what's the
1003
00:43:43,590 --> 00:43:49,380
future of rock yeah it's it's really
1004
00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:50,250
hard to say I think that yeah just the
1005
00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:52,950
last couple of years there's been
1006
00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:56,940
something of a rock wrench use a chaton
1007
00:43:52,950 --> 00:44:01,110
was a major one also just sort of all
1008
00:43:56,940 --> 00:44:03,180
the different talent shows showcasing
1009
00:44:01,110 --> 00:44:05,010
some extraordinarily talented musicians
1010
00:44:03,180 --> 00:44:07,890
I've seen people covering some of our
1011
00:44:05,010 --> 00:44:11,580
old songs it's been pretty impressive I
1012
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:13,350
think that the old issue of there's not
1013
00:44:11,580 --> 00:44:14,850
be enough competition and enough for the
1014
00:44:13,350 --> 00:44:17,550
talent pool that's that's long ago
1015
00:44:14,850 --> 00:44:19,770
resolved now it's no longer struggle to
1016
00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:22,290
find instruments to find rehearsal space
1017
00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:23,820
to find then used to all venues now of
1018
00:44:22,290 --> 00:44:28,290
course you can't play many of them
1019
00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:30,300
but uh III think it the the only
1020
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:34,200
significant obstacle right now is that
1021
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:36,930
it is that the musical aesthetic and
1022
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:41,070
China has hardened and in a way that is
1023
00:44:36,930 --> 00:44:41,790
not going to allow Rock to really become
1024
00:44:41,070 --> 00:44:43,380
mainstream
1025
00:44:41,790 --> 00:44:45,900
you'll always be on the periphery but I
1026
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:48,570
think it it's better on the periphery I
1027
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:51,210
mean a peripheral music in China that
1028
00:44:48,570 --> 00:44:53,400
you know only has a small percentage of
1029
00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:56,280
music fans adhering to it it's still a
1030
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:58,110
huge number and it's it's viable at that
1031
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,590
point I think that in China there are
1032
00:44:58,110 --> 00:45:03,660
now you know models business models for
1033
00:45:01,590 --> 00:45:05,430
music that actually work and musicians
1034
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:07,350
can actually make a living much better
1035
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:10,500
than they can in the United States it's
1036
00:45:07,350 --> 00:45:13,410
a it's it's in a lot of ways reversed so
1037
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:14,790
I'm generally optimistic I think that
1038
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:16,710
they're going to be compromises that
1039
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:21,960
rock musicians are gonna need to make
1040
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:25,890
with commercial them but I'm generally
1041
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:28,440
pretty pretty confident I the the sheer
1042
00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:30,210
talent I see from some of these people
1043
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,550
on all instruments whether it's drums or
1044
00:45:30,210 --> 00:45:36,960
bass guitar or vocals or keyboards is
1045
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:39,780
just astonishing I just think the key
1046
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,990
though is I want I hope that people
1047
00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:43,910
avoid the trap of the Emperor's New
1048
00:45:42,990 --> 00:45:47,850
Clothes
1049
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:52,050
where there's a tendency in some genres
1050
00:45:47,850 --> 00:45:55,680
of rock to to be anti technical to just
1051
00:45:52,050 --> 00:45:57,720
to think that that it musicianship has
1052
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:01,080
nothing to do with music which is just
1053
00:45:57,720 --> 00:46:02,760
not true for all there are false you
1054
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,600
know the medallist or the progressive
1055
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,700
rockers
1056
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,280
they'll draw the bow all the way back
1057
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:10,890
and they'll let fly and they'll often
1058
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:13,410
fall long with a mark or wider the mark
1059
00:46:10,890 --> 00:46:15,690
but not never so much shorter the mark
1060
00:46:13,410 --> 00:46:19,280
to many of the musicians now just sort
1061
00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:23,250
of like clink you know there's no effort
1062
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:26,010
there a contemptuous of effort in music
1063
00:46:23,250 --> 00:46:27,570
you know where they really do believe
1064
00:46:26,010 --> 00:46:29,970
that all you need to do is to sort of
1065
00:46:27,570 --> 00:46:33,180
have a cool haircut not an ironic
1066
00:46:29,970 --> 00:46:34,430
t-shirt and that you know you'll be able
1067
00:46:33,180 --> 00:46:36,650
to
1068
00:46:34,430 --> 00:46:38,710
go on TV and be a rock musician and I
1069
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:41,780
think that that's the wrong path
1070
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:44,870
great you tone has another question I'll
1071
00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:46,730
follow up here if Tom dynasty and Fijian
1072
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:48,260
had a certain purpose in their music or
1073
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:50,120
carried a certain message that aligned
1074
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:52,100
with the events that happened in the 70s
1075
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,840
and 80s what do you think about the
1076
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:56,030
current Chinese rock bands including
1077
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,190
Taiwanese indie rock bands do they carry
1078
00:46:56,030 --> 00:47:01,010
the same weight with their purpose in
1079
00:46:58,190 --> 00:47:03,050
creating music and does that suggest
1080
00:47:01,010 --> 00:47:05,690
something about the current Chinese pop
1081
00:47:03,050 --> 00:47:08,630
culture the music industry in terms of
1082
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:10,340
the general trend yeah I think that it's
1083
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:13,670
singularly lacking in purpose I don't
1084
00:47:10,340 --> 00:47:16,550
think that I can't discern anything you
1085
00:47:13,670 --> 00:47:19,430
know it's it's just sort of back to the
1086
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:22,940
sort of tried-and-true old themes of
1087
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:24,530
love and loss you know there's nothing
1088
00:47:22,940 --> 00:47:27,530
wrong with that I don't think that it
1089
00:47:24,530 --> 00:47:31,640
should necessarily aspire to some great
1090
00:47:27,530 --> 00:47:34,730
you know ennobling purpose there's
1091
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:37,430
nothing wrong with music that that it
1092
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:39,200
doesn't have that intention I it's not
1093
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:41,750
what I would want to go out and listen
1094
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:45,340
to I would much rather listen to music
1095
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:49,730
where you know that intention is clear
1096
00:47:45,340 --> 00:47:52,370
but I don't I I haven't seen it in
1097
00:47:49,730 --> 00:47:57,110
evidence at all in fact I I think if
1098
00:47:52,370 --> 00:47:58,850
anything it's it's gotten you know more
1099
00:47:57,110 --> 00:48:02,960
and more frivolous and less than less
1100
00:47:58,850 --> 00:48:06,650
daring a couple more this is Athena Dee
1101
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:10,430
and she asks I'm wondering what sets
1102
00:48:06,650 --> 00:48:11,750
Chinese run from other forms what does
1103
00:48:10,430 --> 00:48:13,940
it take inspiration from either
1104
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:16,100
musically or in terms of instrumentation
1105
00:48:13,940 --> 00:48:18,770
or in terms of content lyrics why does
1106
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:22,300
rock music what does rock music strive
1107
00:48:18,770 --> 00:48:26,030
to do call me to him one kind of purpose
1108
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:28,640
it's it's actually really rare to find
1109
00:48:26,030 --> 00:48:31,700
Chinese rock bands that that consciously
1110
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,590
draw on Chinese you know explicitly
1111
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:36,440
Chinese influences other than lyrical
1112
00:48:33,590 --> 00:48:38,060
ones so if we look at just music I can
1113
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,370
only think of a handful of bands that
1114
00:48:38,060 --> 00:48:41,690
have have deliberately you know included
1115
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:43,370
and what are we talking about we're
1116
00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:46,160
talking about you know staying mainly to
1117
00:48:43,370 --> 00:48:49,220
pentatonic scales and you know
1118
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,700
pentatonic melodies in using Chinese
1119
00:48:49,220 --> 00:48:54,710
instrumentation so yeah there are a few
1120
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:56,749
the ones that I think you know take a
1121
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:58,849
broader definition of Chinese to include
1122
00:48:56,749 --> 00:49:00,499
you know sort of everyone in the class I
1123
00:48:58,849 --> 00:49:03,579
realm there's a lot of the Mongolian
1124
00:49:00,499 --> 00:49:07,460
themed bands that use ethnic elements
1125
00:49:03,579 --> 00:49:08,930
much more clearly and I think much much
1126
00:49:07,460 --> 00:49:11,390
better I think there's there's a really
1127
00:49:08,930 --> 00:49:14,210
good John roof it and that's possibly
1128
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:17,029
because you know Mongolian culture and
1129
00:49:14,210 --> 00:49:19,849
rock go together so easily there's this
1130
00:49:17,029 --> 00:49:22,220
sort of wildness to both of them there's
1131
00:49:19,849 --> 00:49:27,650
this you know kind of individualism this
1132
00:49:22,220 --> 00:49:31,160
egoism that works really well I would
1133
00:49:27,650 --> 00:49:35,180
say that the things that set it apart
1134
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:38,509
other than music I used to be able to
1135
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:41,859
point to to you know lyrics and I would
1136
00:49:38,509 --> 00:49:45,130
I would say you could take a pretty
1137
00:49:41,859 --> 00:49:49,759
horribly you know saccharine Gong tae
1138
00:49:45,130 --> 00:49:51,349
song and look at the lyrics and they're
1139
00:49:49,759 --> 00:49:53,269
better they're they're generally better
1140
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:55,579
they're there's still kind of poetic
1141
00:49:53,269 --> 00:49:59,479
quality to them they're not just all
1142
00:49:55,579 --> 00:50:03,589
about lining the Ottawa and well the guy
1143
00:49:59,479 --> 00:50:05,539
lawless but now I feel like they've
1144
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:09,799
taken too much direction from you know
1145
00:50:05,539 --> 00:50:12,170
the their counterparts in the West from
1146
00:50:09,799 --> 00:50:15,440
the same sort of pop genre is about boy
1147
00:50:12,170 --> 00:50:17,630
meets girl boy loses girl and again
1148
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:20,539
nothing terribly wrong with that it's
1149
00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:22,630
just that I do see it's kind of a shame
1150
00:50:20,539 --> 00:50:25,519
to turn your back on this really rich
1151
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:27,559
poetic tradition and the the power of
1152
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:29,809
individual Chinese characters you know
1153
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:32,059
in their breath and their ambiguity and
1154
00:50:29,809 --> 00:50:35,299
in their you know they're so larded with
1155
00:50:32,059 --> 00:50:38,119
double entendre all the time it's kind
1156
00:50:35,299 --> 00:50:42,249
of a pity that there is much clever
1157
00:50:38,119 --> 00:50:42,249
wordplay as that there used to be
1158
00:50:43,269 --> 00:50:50,230
question what Chinese rock
1159
00:50:48,340 --> 00:50:52,930
music bands from the new generation do
1160
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:54,280
you recommend this I don't really listen
1161
00:50:52,930 --> 00:50:56,020
to too many of them from the new
1162
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,880
generation I mean it's been a while I've
1163
00:50:56,020 --> 00:51:01,450
been away for four years and haven't
1164
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,860
really listened to a ton so I don't
1165
00:51:01,450 --> 00:51:06,610
think my recommendations would would
1166
00:51:02,860 --> 00:51:08,860
carry much weight from back then in in
1167
00:51:06,610 --> 00:51:11,890
in the old days when I was still playing
1168
00:51:08,860 --> 00:51:14,230
in bands pre actively there were a few
1169
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:15,970
bands that I really I've mentioned a few
1170
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:18,520
that I think you should check out like
1171
00:51:15,970 --> 00:51:20,290
demerit would be one that I I said kind
1172
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:24,070
of brings these strange metal
1173
00:51:20,290 --> 00:51:26,380
sensibilities into Punk there's metal
1174
00:51:24,070 --> 00:51:31,440
bands that I very much enjoy one is
1175
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:36,070
called ritual day another is called
1176
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:38,050
kung-fu voodoo voodoo kung fu Lee there
1177
00:51:36,070 --> 00:51:41,200
I don't know if they're still going but
1178
00:51:38,050 --> 00:51:44,050
they were they were terrific their bands
1179
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:47,320
like Joe ball 9 treasures which is a
1180
00:51:44,050 --> 00:51:52,900
Mongolian metal bad and one called
1181
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:57,430
ego fall eg Oh fall I think there's some
1182
00:51:52,900 --> 00:52:01,390
of the kind of it's called my groove
1183
00:51:57,430 --> 00:52:05,680
core or maybe a little new metal ish
1184
00:52:01,390 --> 00:52:08,110
bands like eh ha yaksa then I think are
1185
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:11,890
really quite good maybe they have great
1186
00:52:08,110 --> 00:52:14,290
sound and real groove to them and then
1187
00:52:11,890 --> 00:52:17,650
of course a band like suffocated just
1188
00:52:14,290 --> 00:52:20,350
she which I quite like there's so
1189
00:52:17,650 --> 00:52:22,390
nothing like the the old bands from the
1190
00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:27,550
old days I mean I the ones that I still
1191
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:29,470
listen to all are Gao Qi and Hans I both
1192
00:52:27,550 --> 00:52:31,750
of their their their two albums are
1193
00:52:29,470 --> 00:52:33,280
fantastic totally different genres the
1194
00:52:31,750 --> 00:52:34,870
first thought is a straight-up had a
1195
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:38,320
thrash metal album the second is more
1196
00:52:34,870 --> 00:52:40,360
alternative but child's eyes first album
1197
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:44,110
is just fantastic
1198
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:48,660
I like Shoei's music quite a bit it just
1199
00:52:44,110 --> 00:52:48,660
brings me back to the old days and
1200
00:52:49,050 --> 00:52:55,990
another bad like like zoo yeah which is
1201
00:52:52,740 --> 00:52:59,770
super Beijing II and full of irony and
1202
00:52:55,990 --> 00:53:01,780
wits and and that actually incorporates
1203
00:52:59,770 --> 00:53:04,810
a ton of Chinese music into it but
1204
00:53:01,780 --> 00:53:07,210
he's kind of Primus like bandwidth
1205
00:53:04,810 --> 00:53:11,230
really kind of bass centric and really
1206
00:53:07,210 --> 00:53:12,730
interesting rhythmically yeah so for the
1207
00:53:11,230 --> 00:53:14,500
last decade you've been doing your
1208
00:53:12,730 --> 00:53:16,660
podcast and you've kind of gotten under
1209
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:18,670
the skin of contemporary China deeper
1210
00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:21,250
and in more intricate ways than almost
1211
00:53:18,670 --> 00:53:23,920
anybody that I can think of but you've
1212
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:27,460
also had an equally deep and penetrating
1213
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,960
impact and kind of a contact with the
1214
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:31,120
Chinese rock scene for all of these
1215
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,220
years and so what's your biggest kind of
1216
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,080
takeaway and what are the biggest things
1217
00:53:33,220 --> 00:53:37,750
that you learned from all those years
1218
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,000
from about Chinese society about history
1219
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:41,710
about culture about what's happening in
1220
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,900
this very complex place from your
1221
00:53:41,710 --> 00:53:45,820
experience through the lens of Chinese
1222
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:48,240
rock-and-roll hopefully we have learned
1223
00:53:45,820 --> 00:53:51,970
humility I've learned just how shallow
1224
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:54,400
anyone individuals understanding can can
1225
00:53:51,970 --> 00:53:55,840
be I mean they're I mean with with
1226
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,940
especially doing the show that I'm doing
1227
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:01,660
because the topic changes from week to
1228
00:53:57,940 --> 00:54:04,200
week and well I can you know attain a
1229
00:54:01,660 --> 00:54:06,550
certain amount of breath I can't
1230
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,170
accomplish much depth than any of that I
1231
00:54:06,550 --> 00:54:10,630
mean unfortunately that's a good match
1232
00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:14,110
with my personality I'm but sort of by
1233
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:15,580
nature a grazer I like to to that's why
1234
00:54:14,110 --> 00:54:17,200
I don't think I that's why I didn't
1235
00:54:15,580 --> 00:54:19,000
finish my PhD I'm just not somebody who
1236
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,800
can plunge super deep into a any
1237
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,290
individual topic for no more than a
1238
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,720
couple of weeks at a time I mean I have
1239
00:54:23,290 --> 00:54:27,760
a better attention span than than most
1240
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:30,190
but it's still not the attention span of
1241
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,090
a scholar so I think yeah if there's if
1242
00:54:30,190 --> 00:54:35,440
there's one thing that I've really
1243
00:54:31,090 --> 00:54:37,600
learned it's just that I've learned an
1244
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:40,150
abiding suspicion of anyone who fancies
1245
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:43,540
immersed or herself to be an expert in
1246
00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:45,940
any aspect of of China I mean Michael
1247
00:54:43,540 --> 00:54:47,980
you know film there's I don't think
1248
00:54:45,940 --> 00:54:51,790
anyone can really challenge you on that
1249
00:54:47,980 --> 00:54:55,870
but there are so few people who have
1250
00:54:51,790 --> 00:54:58,210
that that grasp I mean you have little
1251
00:54:55,870 --> 00:55:02,080
the language ability the contacts the
1252
00:54:58,210 --> 00:55:05,170
deep familiarity with you're one of the
1253
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:08,500
rare exceptions but I think you know I'm
1254
00:55:05,170 --> 00:55:11,410
as suspicious I of most of the so-called
1255
00:55:08,500 --> 00:55:13,690
China experts as I would be of any you
1256
00:55:11,410 --> 00:55:14,830
know Chinese person styling him or
1257
00:55:13,690 --> 00:55:18,940
herself in a mera
1258
00:55:14,830 --> 00:55:20,230
expert I mean I think that and then you
1259
00:55:18,940 --> 00:55:24,100
know the same is true with the music
1260
00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:28,570
scene I know one tiny little dark genre
1261
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:31,210
of music in China and there's so much
1262
00:55:28,570 --> 00:55:33,940
more out there that I know I have just
1263
00:55:31,210 --> 00:55:36,520
simply no clue about you know I want to
1264
00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:41,080
at one of the thing Dean will actually
1265
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:43,930
had a new band he signed with modern sky
1266
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:46,540
and put out an amazing record you should
1267
00:55:43,930 --> 00:55:48,430
you should check that out his solo
1268
00:55:46,540 --> 00:55:51,010
record I mean so that is something new
1269
00:55:48,430 --> 00:55:54,310
but from an old artist I mean now he's
1270
00:55:51,010 --> 00:55:56,760
getting close to 60 now but it rocks
1271
00:55:54,310 --> 00:55:58,000
more than anything Tong dynasty ever did
1272
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,130
great
1273
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,320
well I know you always end your podcast
1274
00:56:00,130 --> 00:56:04,510
with recommendations yeah I guess I was
1275
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,790
gonna ask you for one but maybe it's a
1276
00:56:04,510 --> 00:56:08,320
tribute to your ship maybe that's the
1277
00:56:06,790 --> 00:56:11,890
recommendation ding it was new album
1278
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,630
well yeah definitely you know we are our
1279
00:56:11,890 --> 00:56:15,550
friendship sort of ended but you know we
1280
00:56:13,630 --> 00:56:16,990
still we still sort of say hello to each
1281
00:56:15,550 --> 00:56:19,840
other once in a while on Facebook or
1282
00:56:16,990 --> 00:56:22,690
whatnot the way I have just an immense
1283
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:25,450
admiration for him as musician it's just
1284
00:56:22,690 --> 00:56:27,340
he's just one of the the rare Naturals
1285
00:56:25,450 --> 00:56:30,690
he's one of those wants to generation
1286
00:56:27,340 --> 00:56:33,160
artists who comes along fantastic guy
1287
00:56:30,690 --> 00:56:36,430
great well Kaiser thank you so much for
1288
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,930
sharing your reminiscences about your
1289
00:56:36,430 --> 00:56:40,360
days in the Chinese rock scene and
1290
00:56:37,930 --> 00:56:42,220
you're a thank you Michael it's a I
1291
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,930
really appreciate it and I hope we'll
1292
00:56:42,220 --> 00:56:45,850
have more conversations in the future
1293
00:56:43,930 --> 00:56:47,890
well I'm gonna turn the tables and you
1294
00:56:45,850 --> 00:56:50,410
know do one with you on film okay sounds
1295
00:56:47,890 --> 00:56:51,850
good I look forward all right thank you
1296
00:56:50,410 --> 00:56:55,440
guys I thank you
1297
00:56:51,850 --> 00:56:55,440
take care take care
1298
00:56:57,850 --> 00:56:59,910
you