Alexandra Lieben 0:00
Hi, everybody, thank you for coming. My name is Alexandra Lieben. And I'm the Deputy Director of the Burkle Center for International Relations. We are in the International Institute. And let me plug our internship. Any one of you who's interested in expanding sort of your awareness of and knowledge of International Affairs, once you get into some networking, apply for our internship. Everybody with a blue shirt here, we have a blue jacket, blue shirts, raise your hands. These are our current interns. You can ask how it is. And Lily behind you is going to join us. Anyways, so the reason for this career panel is that I've had numerous conversations, many, many conversations over many years with students about to graduate and freaking out what they're going to do next. So always the question, right, like now is the first time you have to make a decision for yourself. Up to now it's like sort of your parents will have shepherded you through right up to this point of graduating from college. And now what, right, graduate school, not graduate school. What career is interesting to you? Especially when you're interested in international fields, Los Angeles is not the obvious place to be and start that career. Which is why we thought like we want to give you some insights, bring people who do amazing work that you can hear from and learn from right, and ask questions, because this is a great opportunity to get it sort of face to face. So that's why we're doing this each year. And we're very happy that you're with us. And what I would like to do is also acknowledge the Tongva peoples as the traditional land caretakers of this area here, right. And we have been acknowledging them for a while, but I was very happy when the University of California decided to also fund their education. I thought that is actually what's meaningful. So that's what happened, and what's happening now and very much sort of our gratitude that that we can be on this. Let me start by introducing like, what we're going to do now is like we are we have really a wonderful panel here. I'm going to introduce them individually. Because it's hard to keep everybody in mind, like starting with Greg, and then Greg speaks for about 10 minutes, move on to Katelyn introduce her, etc, etc. Okay. And then at the end of this is like, think about questions while you listen and ask away. Okay, and and if we still have time for more questions, then you can come up at the end. But basically, I'm sure it's like everybody will be willing to talk with you, but but really is like use the time we have together. Alright, so starting with Greg Anderson next to me, Special Agent in Charge at the Department of State's Diplomatic Security Service, and he is at the Los Angeles field office. Greg began his State Department Diplomatic Security Service career at the New York Field Office after quitting the military. Also, right. Over the course of his career, he served in embassies around the world in Moscow, Kigali, Rwanda, where he managed the security program for the building of a new embassy compound and received a lot of high level visits from the US government. He also served in Kuwait, was then back in headquarters at Rosslyn, Virginia, then at the US consulate in Erbil, Iraq, the US Embassy Prague in Czech Republic and the US Embassy in Warsaw in Poland. And now he's here at the Diplomatic Security Service, Los Angeles field office. And that's why we're really lucky that he can join us today.
Gregory Anderson 3:53
Don't clap because I may bore you. But I have to tell you a really corny story because where I grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, okay. And I went to Youngstown State University, and Youngstown State University is located on the corner of Lincoln Avenue. So we had shirts made up that said, U C L A, University on a corner of Lincoln Avenue. So I find myself extremely giddy to be here tonight to the the real UCLA and tell you how fortunate you are because as a kid from Youngstown, Ohio, we dreamed of being in California going to this prestigious university. So I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to talk to you about my experiences. And I think I may be be able to will be able to speak for Katelyn when I said that I don't necessarily have a job. It's a lifestyle you have to buy into. Because every two or three years, you're literally moving your family and going somewhere else. And some people may say well that seems strange, but I found it extremely rewarding with my job. And my job and the way I view it is that I am responsible for making sure sure that the diplomats can do their job safely and securely in an overseas environment and the bad guys don't come and, do harm to them. And I'm a support person for a State Department. We are considered law enforcement officers and we have the responsibility of the protection of passport and passport integrity and visa fraud. Domestically, we also do a lot of protection. You will see agents that have little curly earpiece in looks like the Secret Service. We do exactly the same thing that they do, just on a different level of protectees. They protect the president, the vice president, everybody knows this. We protect the Secretary of State and other big visiting dignitaries that come to the United States. I think one of the most high profile that's going to be coming very soon to the East Coast is His Royal Highness - I'm not sure, Prince William is coming the I guess his title just changed. So it's Prince of Wales. If you see people with black suits, white shirts, and little earpieces, that's Diplomatic Security doing that sort of protection. So it's been an amazing career. We were just talking about how our children grow up overseas. I, I took my son he was two months old, to Kigali, Rwanda, where he didn't come back to the United States til he was five years old. We came to the States, we left, we went back. So the majority of his growing up, he's done overseas. And he's maintained friendships across the spectrum with I think our last post we just returned from this summer was Warsaw, Poland. And I counted 18 different nationalities of friendships that he had from all over the world. So it's an amazing career. And I highly encourage anybody who's interested in international politics, international relations, to really consider a job in the Foreign Service, or as I like to call it a lifestyle, because it will take you places and it will expose you to things that will really surprise you. I knew this was a very good job. When I first got hired, I went through training. I was stationed in New York, the New York Field Office. Five days after being there, I had to go on a trip to help assist the Secretary of State's visit to Egypt. There I was in Cairo, Egypt, looking up at the Great Pyramids, and I was humbled as a kid from Youngstown, Ohio, to get to see that magnificent, you know, facility structure. And I'm like, this is a good job. And I can't believe how quickly it goes by because I remember sitting in classrooms like this, and I still feel the same age as you. But as you can tell, I'm a little bit older these days. So I really enjoy this job. And I probably will, I could probably keep talking forever. But I know that we have a question and answer session afterwards. And if you want to know more personal things, please let me know. Professional experiences. Pathways into the department. I brought some pamphlets for diplomatic security, if you're interested in that, so I can hand those out as well. And with that, I think I will probably just sort of shut my mouth and move on.
Right. Very quick question. What made you go from the military into Diplomatic Security?
So I wanted to work for the FBI. When I was growing up. I majored in criminal justice. And I called the local FBI office. And they seemed they said to me, well, it's great that you have a degree, so does everyone else. You might want to be more competitive. And they suggested more schooling. And as you all know that you're in school right now, I did not want to go back to school, especially for becoming a lawyer, electrical engineer, accountant, a linguist. And then he said something to me, he said, or military training. So my way of thinking was the FBI, Quantico, the United States, Marine Corps, Quantico, I'll join the Marines. And that's, that's how I did it. I look at the military as my graduate school. And when I was, I actually went on embassy duty as a Marine security guard, protecting the embassies in Moscow, Russia, and Bern, Switzerland. And that's how I learned about the State Department and specifically, what we call a regional security officer, which is the person oversees protecting an embassy. And that was that's how I sort of ended up in in this line of work.
Alexandra Lieben 9:29
That's so interesting. It's like learning step by step. Why do we never have a full picture. It's like, ah, next opportunity. What what do we figure out there? It always keeps going forward. Thank you so much, very much. Thank you. Katelyn Choe. She's our Diplomat in Residence, by the way. That means she's accessible to us for two years, maybe a third well, third year if we're lucky. And I encourage all of you to take advantage of that because she's your representative of like at the State Department here, can advise you really on all things Foreign Service and how to get in, foreign service exams like how all this works. But she has literature that she brought, also for you to take. We can add yours there as well. So take that with you. Katelyn, she has been with the State Department for 22 years. So she's she has a lot of experience as a diplomat. With the international relations, government affairs and leadership management overseeing large multicultural teams. Previous diplomatic tours include the Netherlands, Afghanistan, Nepal, New Zealand and South Korea, and her current current role as Diplomat in Residence for Southern California and we think, oh, Southern California, but no, Hawaii, Guam, American Samoa, and Northern Mariana Islands, right. It's a huge territory. Katelyn is the primary recruiter for the US Department of State. She provides guidance and advice on careers, internships, and fellowships to students and professionals interested in pursuing a career in diplomacy. And, again, so how do they find you also through your contact information?
Katelyn Choe 11:08
Yeah, so what how you can find me is I'm on Facebook. It's Diplomat in Residence for Southern California, you can look me up there. Also on LinkedIn under my name. Good. Yep. Very good. Thank you. It's really a pleasure to be here. Alexandra had sent us an email to the panelists saying that, you know, talk about your career path, in a way that they see that it's not so linear, that it's only linear in hindsight. And I thought that was just so profound, because as I'm going to share with you about how I've come to sit here before you, it does feel linear, but in fact, there were lots of misstep and in recalibration that happened along the way. And so I'll start with this. As I think back on the question of what do I want to be when I grow up? Or what is my passion? What is my calling? I think it begins with this question that I've been asking myself, but I didn't actually know that I was asking this question. But simply put it is, what problem am I trying to solve right now? And what do I know? Or who do I know that can fix it? And so sitting in your chair, I think the question I was asking, what problem am I trying to fix right now? Or what problem am I trying to solve right now, frankly, was how do I get out of this university or this college debt free? That was the problem I was trying to solve, right. And how I did that was through this fellowship. And one of the brochure is talking about that. But initially, I had applied for this fellowship, whereby I was majoring in chemistry. And I thought I wanted to go into engineering or sciences. But there was an opportunity, a scholarship opportunity, where they said, if you are willing to come and teach at an inner city school and get kids excited about science and math, or STEM career, we'll pay for your undergraduate, the remaining part of your undergraduate degree in exchange for you to come and working for us as a public school teacher. And I thought, oh my gosh, I have this in the bag. So I applied and was rejected. And I thought, what, how could that be? Here I am pursuing a teaching certification, here I am pursuing a chemistry. So then I thought, okay, now what? And as it happened, that was a misstep. Recalibrate. And then there was this filter fellowship, I'm going through the career centers, looking at all the scholarships and fellowships that are out there. And there was one for the State Department, where they said, come work for us and represent the best of America and bring your diverse, innovative voice to the conversation. And I felt like yeah, I'm diverse, not just because of cosmetic in nature as a woman and also a woman of color. But because I didn't represent sort of the traditional model of what I thought diplomacy was about, which was. I'm not a poli sci major. I'm not interested in economics. But here's what I could bring. I thought I knew the problems I could solve, of what it felt like when my parents and I had gone to the embassy in South Korea when I was nine, to apply for our immigrant visa, before coming to the US. And I remember the nervousness that we'd felt as applicants, and some of the rude interactions that we've had with the local security guard, as well as some of the local staff at the embassy. It was disrespectful at times. It was nerve wracking at times. And so I thought maybe that's a problem that I could solve it If I could be, if I could have a seat at the table, if I could be behind that window, if I could be the manager of that of that team, maybe I could help them understand that maybe for you, that's 150th applicant that you interviewed in that day. But for that applicant, it's his first interview. Maybe there's a breadth of humanity or compassion and kindness I can bring into that conversation. So it was very personal for me. That's the problem that I thought like I could probably solve, I want to solve for the State Department. So I applied and I remember the interview process, being among the sea of Harvards and Yales and Georgetown grads, who had wanted to be a diplomat, since they were seven. And I thought, what the hell am I doing here? Right. I felt like a total imposter. And yet, I felt pretty convinced that maybe, maybe that there is something that I can contribute. What is the problem that I'm trying to solve? And what do I know how to do? And over the sense of the career, what I've come to see is, it's no longer what's the problem at hand. But what problem do I want to solve? What is the need that I need to address? So it's not so much what is what does life have for me, but it's almost a flip side of that is, what is life asking of me with the strengths and focus and the interest that I have that I can bring to the conversation? So let me give you an example of a problem that I was trying to solve. The recent tour that I had, which was one of my sort of to Greg's point earlier, when I knew that I was in the right job. It was this awesome, amazing opportunity to work as a Winter Olympics coordinator. And there's such a job. Why? Because you've got a group of Team USA Americans who are coming to Korea. This was before COVID, the last winter olympics before COVID. So you have the consular folks who are focused on, who have 1000s of people or Americans descending upon Korea for this event. So we need to be thinking about making sure that their safety working with a diplomatic security colleague that their safety is protected. You have US corporate sponsors of Team USA who are very invested in making sure that their branding, and their equities are represented, right. I got to work and we have the public diplomacy section who are very much focused on sports diplomacy, people to people ties, and really leveraging Team USA to push some of the agendas. And one of the agendas that I felt really close to heart about was regarding accessibility for the disabled. And so I paired up with Team USA Paralympians, many of whom are our post 9/11 vets who have incurred injury due to their service to our country and are now representing our country in a different capacity. So in the minds of this very homogeneous, very conservative Korean society, these folks, the Paralympians, were perceived as heroic and charismatic, not necessarily the folks that they considered as their disabled. They need to be hidden. Their lives don't matter really. But in their eyes of the Korean in the eyes of the Koreans, they were seen in a different way. So then I worked with our political section, who knew the NGO players, the Pollack, the the political decision makers, the lawmakers, who had clapped, and who we knew that were our our could be partners with us. And so I worked with our political section, our economic section, our public diplomacy section, our consular section, all across the embassy, and advanced our agenda around the, advanced on our agenda around accessibility for all that's one of the democratic values that we've thought were really important. And so now, when you go to Korea, if you go to public museums and public libraries, there are these ramps and I saw one as I was walking into the building, the accessibility that's such a common thing in the US, but it's not necessarily in certain parts of the world, right? So if you're passionate about certain public policy issues, if you're passionate about having a larger platform, because it wasn't just me, Katelyn Choe, calling up Team USA, if you're passionate about this issue, would you be willing to come and partner with me? No, it was on behalf of the United States of America. Will you Team USA partner with us in being able to advocate for this issue that's important, that we believe is important. And so I have some information in the back by various student internships, fellowships, career pathways, and so if you are not, if you're like me, who didn't quite know whether the career path in diplomacy is right for you, I would say that it is. Because there's so many different aspects of diplomacy that's just beyond the political and economic affairs or commercial affairs. If you want to be able to solve complex problems, we need your voice as diverse as you are. Because of socioeconomic representation, you represent regional diversity that you represent, right? Focus, discipline that you represent. And so I look forward to having a conversation with you about ways that you can contribute to sort of thinking about how can I make a bigger difference using a larger platform? And I'll end with this, I have a screensaver. And it's, it's a tip of a cruise ship that's peering through a building. And that's a picture that I took when I was in New Zealand. Through my office window, I saw this cruise ship. And typically, because we worked, our consulate is near the port, you hear this noise a wahhh, and it's the horn of a cruise ship indicating that it's turning, it's about to turn. And you look out five minutes later, and it's still there, right turning, turning, turning, because it's a massive enterprise. It needs to go or where it needs to go. But it's going to take some time because along with it to the right direction. They're bringing with it 10s of 1000s of people along for the ride. And I took that picture, as a reminder for me that there have been times when I would just have to bang my head against the wall, thinking that I wish I was on the jet, a jet ski to be able to turn swiftly to where I think I know, is the right way to go. But I'm not in that business. Because the at most who I would be bringing is just me and maybe one other person. I'm in it for the enterprise of being able to have a broader sense of an impact, and to be also having a seat at the table. Right to be able to make that lasting, sustainable global impact.
Alexandra Lieben 11:08
Oh, and they're beautiful.
Katelyn Choe 22:17
Thank you. Sure.
Alexandra Lieben 22:18
And you make a good point. Because the cruise chip is a nice metaphor also that we unless we all turn together. I'd like to mean, there's some people who sort of take the lead, or basically all of us turn to really make change and make sustainable change. But does, because you've talked about misstep, and also like sort of the different things you did in your career here too. So I got I always sort of want to share with you guys. It's like you're young enough. You have years to explore where you belong, what feels right to you. Do you want to travel and live abroad right and move around a lot? Do you want to work in the field? Do you want to work in an office? So it's like whatever you're thinking about, try it out. You can use a few years of your life to do that, right? There's no experience that's wasted. You always learn about yourself. And you learn about opportunities and you learn about where you belong. And you figure out those questions right? Like because all of that sort of sharpens brings yourself in sharper focus. And so it's useful, everything you do is basically useful. So never think about that you lost time right or wasted something. Chris, on to you. Now we're moving on to cybersecurity, everybody. He's also we have sort of the different points of security, right like as we move this cruise ship through the world. Chris Covina is a cybersecurity policy advisor at the Rosslyn group. And there he advises cybersecurity division helping shape the cyber threat information sharing program and strategy. Separately, he also served as a policy advisor for LA's Cyber Lab. That's where we crossed paths first. Before joining the Rosslyn group, Chris served as Mayor Garcetti's Policy Director for Cyber and Infrastructure Security. In that role he developed and coordinated the city's cyber policy initiatives, but was also people the policy lead for the city's COVID 19 response helping oversee the the city's COVID vaccine and testing strategy. That's no small feat. Before the mayor's office, he has numerous positions in the public safety field. Chris.
Chris Covino 24:37
Yeah. So first of all, I want to say I'm very humbled to be here because I have the least international experience on this international career panel by far. And also I went to USC.
Alexandra Lieben 24:48
That's international enough.
Chris Covino 24:49
Yeah. So I really I don't know how they got, they must have been desperate. But I did take a extension class at UCLA. So I guess that counts. But so with that being said, uh, you know, give you guys the context. I do not have nearly the levels and decades of international experience that these three have or four I should say, right. So with that, I will give you some advice, I graduated undergrad 2009. So 12 plus years ago. So I kind of went through very recently kind of what they're talking about, not to say that their stories aren't amazing. So I can kind of give you kind of three pieces of advice and it is cyber related too. That's the first piece of advice. Look at tech technology, look at cyber. The other context, I don't have a computer science degree. I have a my background, my original background and undergrad was exercise science. It's like physical training, you know. I thought I was gonna be a strength conditioning coach. Did an internship, I hated it. I became an EMT for five years, hated that it was but I learned through every like they're saying, I learned through every step, especially EMT. Where not in the way like, you know, you just learned the realities of life. I went from a college classroom where everything made sense, everything was simple, you know, this is the way the world should work. You know, theory, practice all this to the the realities of the world. So that was very eye opening, and just kind of shaking my grasp on reality that that job working on the ambulance. Now, the other thing it did, it just taught me to take control of the situation. Right, where very important, especially if you you know, that's my next piece of advice will relay this. But you know, very important to be able to just when you see a gap. When you see a vacuum of lack of leadership, or lack of advising, or whatever it might be, don't be afraid to step into that leader, especially people that you're going to always be working under someone more or less, until you get to the very, very top. People above you are always looking for someone to really step out, you know, provide your opinion, provide direction, do what you can provide your expertise. So never be afraid to do that. But again, that job it taught me a lot again. Didn't love it moved on. I thought about public health. And then I started reading more about public health. I decided to do more generalist public policy. So I went to USC's Public Administration program. I did. I went in without even thinking about cyber at all. I thought maybe emergency management, but I was interested in everything. So I just kind of took all the classes because I learned from my past experience not to hyper focus on something unless you're super passionate about it, and I wasn't. So you know, I took a very generalist approach. At one point I did an internship. It was at the state Threat Assessment Center up at the Sacramento and someone said to me, have you thought about doing cyber? I'm like, no, like, I'm not a computer engineer. I'm not, you know, I'm not on not a hacker, I thought Matrix, right? You think the green screen I'm like, I'm not I'm not that person. So I kind of ignored him. And then, you know, after weeks went by I started thinking like maybe there's something there because he said something very key that I want you guys to stick with this, if you remember anything. The problem was cyber right now is that people like you aren't interested in it because you think that cyber and I'm gonna say cyber and technology more generally, absolutely need people without technical backgrounds to, to start being more involved. We need that that diverse decision making. We need those those different talents. We need different ways of looking at it. And it's not a technical problem. One analogy I like using is public health versus medicine. Medicine is highly technical medicines focused on patient. It's a doctor looking at someone really understanding everything, right? Where public health is interested in communities and policy and maybe more laws, medicine has laws to a degree too, of course. There's regulations and all that, but you need public health people, right. You need public health expertise. So kind of think of it like that, and most importantly, is becoming a translator between the technical people and the non technical people. That will be a huge skill set that will you'll be amazed how far that can take you, farther than you might think. In my case, I've been very lucky. And there's really benefit. That's again, what's the decision makers that you've worked under for really crave something like that. And you ever see those movies where, you know, there's an international incident in some far off country that no one's heard of, or no one thinks about. And then there's like one guy at the State Department who specializes in that. And they're like, looking for him in the basement. That's the same thing that cyber could be for some of you. It can really propel your career and open doors, you might have not expected it's, you know, looking at it now. It's big in the news now, but it's always gonna grow. And it's that same person who was specializing in terrorism in 2000. That could be your career, if you've specialized and you start thinking about cyber and technology now. And you know, you only think of security, but there's so many other issues that this will touch that you're probably passionate about. Think of, you know, you know, there's migrants or there's, there's someone there, there's data being collected on them, right. You've this privacy protection. There's there's so much out there, where tech is going to touch as we grow, you know, again. There's the obvious examples, but just think of I guarantee if you come up to me and say I'm interested in this, I can tell you the cyber technology nexus. And I get guarantee that if you can understand the cyber side of that problem, it's going to put you ahead of a lot of people. It's going to put you ahead of the Georgetown's and the Harvard's, and all those, those people who are maybe focused on more traditional things, right. So that's my first piece of advice. Really consider cyber really considered tech. I'm happy to talk about it more after if you guys want to. Second piece of advice, this is a little more broader, you know. Be a good decision maker. But to do that, be a good adviser. Again, you're going to probably advise many smart people in your life. They, you know, become a very good adviser to them, give them the facts, be very confident in your opinions. You know, tell them what you think, tell him how you think about it, you know, understand there them too. I've had, I've worked under very high level people who preferred me to text them, you know, major points, and I've had people who want me to write papers. So you know, understand your audience. But again, be very confident if you see, especially if there's, if you're in a room with, you know, a bunch of smart people, but there seems to be a vacuum of thought leadership step into it. If you're confident, step into it. And again, going to the first point, it might be a tech related thing, and you might really have that edge there that you can come in and relay there. So, and then being a good decision maker to you know, be able to and you know, you'll start with making small decisions, but it will go on and go on, you know. Be objective, know that there's a lot of gray zone and uncertainty in decision making. And that, you know, you're not always gonna get it right. And that's, that's okay, as long as you, you know, approach it that way. And then the last bit of advice, and this very much relates to what already has been talked about. Take risks, get out of your comfort zone. You know, for me, again, I got a degree in Exercise Science, and then I worked as an EMT, and then I went, I this is all in Boston. Then I decided to move across the country in my mid 20s and pursue a graduate degree in something completely different, right? I could not have done that the day I graduated college, because I was locked in. I'm like, I did exercise science, I paid this money I am, I am sold on this. I can go adjacent EMT, right or public health, but I cannot go in vain to something else. So it took me years to figure that out. But I'm so glad I'm telling you now. Don't wait years. Do a year here, do a year of that and something to see if you're interested. Like again, great advice before me. But if it's not sticking, move on, you know, or look at different things. It's okay, take those risks. So career wise, take risks. Again, cyber tech, you might all be saying, we I don't know anything about computers. You probably sound like me, you know, five, six years ago, when someone told me to do cyber, you know. Just learn a little become that translator. You don't have to become a computer science expert, but be willing to take that risk and be that person, because I guarantee you a lot of people will not do that. They will kind of stick into what they're comfortable with. And if you can kind of excel again, leadership and people who you're going to work under, will really like to see that. You know, it wasn't your job to do this, but you ended up learning about this and excelling it right. So, you know, that's, that's key advice. And then just more and more tactical sense. You know, again, when you're in a meeting with someone, don't be afraid to, you know, say your opinion. People like that they don't want, again, decision makers aren't going to want very quiet, you know, yes men necessarily. If they do, you're working for the wrong person. But in that case, still always kind of speak your mind. You'll always feel better. People will not always follow your advice, for sure. 9 times out of 10, my advice never gets followed. So only like one out of 10 of you will, will listen to me and do cyber. But you know, just again, think through, you know, what you would want to hear when you're making a decision. Give the pros, give the cons. Also don't be afraid to do that. Don't be afraid to really speak, you know, what's on your mind or what should be done. You know, again, in a meeting and then career wise. So that's generally again, you know, the, I guess the three pieces of advice I have. You know, consider technology. You know, become good decision makers, and then advisors. And then finally, again, really take risks, and I guarantee you, it will pay off most of the time, not all the time. And that's okay. And that's the other thing. You want to understand that. It's not always going to work great. But you need to be resilient you need to carry on. And the bonus advice to all that, you know, everyone here has had probably least me right everyone here has very, extremely demanding careers. You're moving here, you're moving there. You're traveling international time. I don't do that. I work from home, I wear a hoodie and hang out. It's very nice.
But, you know, take care of yourselves. This goes back to my exercise science days. If you're not feeling good, you don't have to go, you know for 10 mile run. Just go for a walk and clear your head. Things like that can go a really long way. You know, take care of yourselves, have family, have friends, have hobbies. You can be a career person that's focused very much on your career, but still have that balance, and it will, I guarantee, it will make your career better too because you'll be just more balanced person you won't get burnt out and all that. So that was the bonus advice. But other than that, I don't have much to add. So I will pass it back to you to pass it to him.
Alexandra Lieben 35:10
That was pretty comprehensive. Good advice. I generally good advice. Like it sort of, and you can ask more about that. But you made me think about some something that was said a few years back at a career panel deep in the pre pandemic era when people still got together, like, thankfully we can do again, is I had a representative from Human Rights Watch who was sitting here, and he said, "We don't need social workers. We don't need people who want to help along the lines of sort of what people generally understand what we do - we need data scientists. We get so much data from satellites, right? It's like, we don't know what to do with it." So all of you out there who think that you're going to work in the field and, and save the planet, learn statistics, learn data science. And it was incredibly useful, because it's what you said, I was just like, it's sort of counterintuitive, right? Like you think you're you need to have a cybersecurity background. But no, it's like, there are all these different backgrounds that are coming together. So it's really, you're absolutely right. Thank you also, for the point, don't be afraid to speak up. Don't think that you be don't be afraid to sound stupid, right? Or less experienced. You are, by default, less experienced than other people in the room. It doesn't matter. But you bring a different perspective, right? And you inject something that makes other people think, right? So here again, sort of the idea that no great, great idea is worn fully formed, but it's all an iteration, right? Like and often it's questions like from the outside, like, "Ah, wait a minute, we hadn't thought about that." So that's really that's really useful. Thank you. Alexander. Alexander Messmann is the Executive Vice President at Los Angeles World Affairs Council and Town Hall, which is also a really wonderful organization in town that we, is sort of a sister organization to what we do at the Burkle Center. And so I really appreciate you being here. And Alexander has been with the Los Angeles World Affairs Council and Town Hall since 1987. So he's really watched this organization grow and develop. He studied at universities in Germany and the United States. Before starting his tenure at the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, he had worked at the United Nations Development Program in New York City, and as a research assistant at the University of Constance.
Alexander Messmann 37:33
Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for the introduction. Thank you for being here this evening. I'm not really in a position to give you any advice. I can only tell you what my experience has been. And maybe from that you can draw your own conclusions. From what Alexandra said, indicates that I'm not from the United States that I did all my education in Germany. So I'm a product of the German education system. I have a master's degree from the University of Constance. A part of my education, I spent 1 year at Howard University in Washington, DC. And, you know, what, then, you know, by being at Howard, I made friends. And I realized that, actually, I wanted to, I wanted to come back to the United States, and do some more training and education. And when I went back to Germany, I kind of oriented myself to a study that would bring me back to United States. And they brought me back to New York, to the United Nations Development Program. And I was there for about less than a year, and was there a junior consultant? And, you know, I've worked at a unit, it was a resource mobilization unit, where we try to develop funding for the United Nations Development Program, through preparing country briefs, where you would delineate how do the money that these countries contribute to the UN system gets brought back into the country through contracts for country from company from those countries. And since the UNDP also works with the World Bank, they sent me to the World Bank, and I followed up with some of these investments that were made in countries that led to contracts in those donor countries. And as I went through that experience, I realized I worked for fairly large organizations. The UNDP is a big organization. The World Bank is a big organization, like the State Department, and they are big. And they are also bureaucratic and they're very hierarchical. And, and I realize that if you work for a big organization, you certainly first of all are, especially, especially when you start out, are a little cog in the wheel. And you have to probably work your way up. But your chance to really make a difference isn't really, in the beginning, very large. And also, you have to deal with a bureaucracy that may not necessarily be very nimble and very able to change quickly. And when I went, came back to Germany, I finished a master's degree, realized that actually working for a large organizations like the UNDP, or the World Bank isn't really my cup of tea. And a lot of thought that working for a small organization, there you may be, you know, well you have a different experience, and but before I started then at the World Affairs Counsel. What brought me back to that actually, was that through my connections with through Howard, I met my wife, who then was in Los Angeles, and that brought me to Los Angeles. And, as Alexandra already said, that there aren't too many opportunities to really be involved with international organizations in Los Angeles. Probably a better place would be the East Coast, New York, Washington, DC. But there was one organization. That was the World Affairs Council. And I started out there at a very low level as a membership assistant, and it was rather menial, even though I had a master's degree. But working there, now, you were I was in a much smaller organization where people had to wear many different hats. You're not just doing one particular task. But because you're in a small organization, you're basically then challenged to assume tasks that come up, that encompass a much wider range. So even though I started out with with membership, then that became issues with, you know, with a computer, how do you handle the computer system? How do you now announce you events on the, on the computer through the internet? How do you develop an email system and email notifications to all of your members? And the role that I took on then became more technical, and also, I had to deal with the finances of the organization. And with my education in Germany, I didn't necessarily have the background in accounting and finance, as it is practiced in the United States. So while I was then working there, I also took evening classes in accounting, and learn how to do nonprofit accounting, and took on the finances of the organization, did the financial statements did all of their accounting, and again, had to wear many different hats, you know, you don't just do accounting, you will now also they have to do budgeting for your programs, you have to develop the overall budget in terms of your programs, personnel, and and all that this encompasses. What I'm trying to get at is that, first of all, if you do work for a small organization, you probably have a much better chance to cover a wider range of areas than if you work for a big organization where you're probably in a particular area that you that you focus on. And even though I started out as a membership assistant, I grew to become the finance director. And as the challenges grew with, especially with technology, it wasn't any more sufficient to have a database system. Now you needed to have a system that also allows members to register online, where you announced the events online, and so on. And now I had to get into a technical part of it, getting into programming, hiring programmers to develop our own website, our own system, that we end up licensing to other World Affairs Councils. Because again, the World Affairs Council, let me just step out for a moment. There are World Affairs Councils throughout the United States. There are about 80 plus World Affairs Councils. And we all have the same mission. That mission is to what to prevent the United States to from retreating into isolationism. Word Affairs Councils came up after World War Two because after World War One, the United States did not join the League of Nations and became isolationist. And after World War Two, the idea was that in order to prevent this isolationism you have to have the communities involved in international issues. And so, the Ford Foundation gave grants to various institutions to set up these community organizations - World Affairs Councils - throughout the United States. So the World Affairs Council in LA got a grant from the Ford Foundation, and started to put on programs and engage the community about international issues. So we have been in existence since 1953. So that's why I'm saying we have similar missions. We all have, basically the mission to inform the community about world affairs and do this through the speaker program. We invite public figures to talk about international issues. We have usually high level government officials. We have presidents, almost all the presidents from the United States, as our speakers, secretaries of states, we had foreign dignitaries, and we put on 50, to 60 events each year, where we now inform about international relations. So as you can see, there, on the one hand, it's a speaker's program. It is also a membership organization. It's a nonprofit organization. So we are not advocating any kind of policies. So we are nonpartisan. And we are part of this network.
And as you we're a small staff of six employees. And as you can see, with six employees to put all of these on, we're putting on conferences, I'm just kind of review review today, we had two Asia conferences where we had 57 speakers over a two day period at a conference with 23 sessions and breakout sessions. And if you put this together with a small team, it does require you to wear many hats. And again, I emphasize, you have to make sure you're comfortable wearing this many hats. You also have to be comfortable with switching between different tasks. And I think that's what I think is important when it comes to education. It is not so much important to focus on one particular area and become an expert in it, but rather, especially at the undergraduate level, that you develop the ability to do critical thinking, to be able to solve a problem when you're presented with it, and not necessarily be already an expert in programming or in accounting or finance. Because all of these specific, you know, expertise, you probably will develop this much more when you actually have a job and are confronted with these challenges. And what you should have learned then is the ability to how to solve a problem, how to how to approach an issue that you haven't really dealt with before. And I think when I look at people that work for us, that have been successful, are the ones that even though they didn't necessarily have the expertise right away in that area, were able to acquire that knowledge quickly on their own, and had initiative then to solve it. That's certainly, I think, coming back to again, you know, when you think about your caree.r I don't think it's necessarily important right now to know exactly what field you want to be. And I think one of the common themes that I hear here is that life is very contingent. it can take on all different kinds of directions, that you have to be prepared to then see when an opportunity arise to seize it. But you can't really plan for it. And I think to be ready for these contingencies also means that you, you're open, open to challenges and don't become single-minded and focus on one area because that area may be very popular at the moment and very high in demand, but who knows where that will be in years hence. And especially with all of these technological, technological changes that are upon us, you know, it's hard to predict what expertise is required down the road, as with artificial intelligence. A lot of jobs that at this point require a university education probably can be handled by AI. And so I think it's probably better to be more of a generalist and have a general understanding of how to approach issues, then to be very specific already at this stage. One of then the new challenges that arose for for the organization is, you know, especially with with a pandemic, event organizations like us are under a lot of stress, because, you know, we can't hold events. We have to switch to now an online platform. And so, so when the pandemic hit in March 2020, you know, we had events scheduled, the speakers canceled on us. But you still have to stay in business, even though you're a nonprofit, doesn't mean you don't make any profit. It only means that whatever net income you have, isn't taxed, you are, you don't pay an income tax, but you still need to pay your rent, you need to pay payroll, which means you have to have revenue. And in the end, you need to have more revenue than expenses, otherwise, you go out of business. That applies to nonprofits, as well. So then, when you're confronted with a situation where you can't put on events, you don't have really the revenue that's associated with it, you now have to pivot. And again, you're in a small organization, you know, and as a small team, you have to now solve this. And we pivoted quickly to webinars. And we had Bill Gates, we had several other high level speakers on our webinars. And we did this within less than a month, switching to the webinars that we did at least one a week. And again, you have to have the ability then in house to solve this problem that you've been confronted with. How do we now do webinars? How do we announce these? How do we tie this in with the ability that - how do you monetize these webinars because they are free of charge. So you want to have the ability to collect donations on it. And it becomes, again, a technological challenge. But without necessarily having programming experience. At least you have the ability, if you are a graduate from university, you should have that ability. That's probably the main takeaway that you are able to think critically and know how to problem solve, and how do you go about solving this issue, you know, first of all, the technical issue, but also then the marketing issue and all of this that goes along with it. And don't become a specialist too early, but rather keep your options wide open. And in the end, if you look at your career, it isn't always what I realized that you make the career decision on your own about your own path. I came to the United States because my wife was American and was living in LA. And that's really a decision then surrounding about other issues. It's about family, it's about your social context. I also stayed with the World Affairs Council, because also my wife went back to UCLA got her PhD at UCLA. And so, I needed to be the breadwinner and and be the one who provides the stability. So, you don't always make the decision just based on your own career. You also base it within the context of your family, of when you have children, you know, the school setting, it is more encompassing than just your one career move where I can move up the ladder. Sometimes you may have to compromise and take on a job that is in a particular location for other considerations then, you know, having a stellar career and that is okay, as well. Because in the end, what counts is, I think, not just your individual job, but you have to think of it as a whole life, you know, with your with your family, with your social context, and I think satisfaction does not just alone come from your work, but it comes also from the life around it. And it is okay if the job doesn't always take top priority. I think that's one other realization I have. In the end, you have to be happy in totality and not just because you just advance to the next level in your career.
Alexandra Lieben 55:35
Thank you very much. Life's wisdom. You made made a good point. Like, I mean, you mentioned this already. It's looking ahead, right, things look so curious and unsure. In hindsight, right, it's much more straight, because what Alexander was also saying, life presents us with certain options or certain situations. And then it's sort of our personal preference that makes us like, take certain decisions, and it's congruent with who we are. And that makes it good. Even if it doesn't match up to somebody else's idea, it has to match up to yours, right? It has to feel right for you guys. So that's why it's like it's good. But I feel like the through path has really been be nimble, right, just like recognize those open doors, like take those opportunities. And always keep moving. Okay, don't let anything stop you, right. Floor is open, bring your questions. I know the first one is always the hardest. Come on. Take a risk.
Audience Question 1 56:38
I have a question just for the whole panel. If you were to give advice to someone who isn't really sure, just coming out of their undergrad experience, if they want to go into government or a private company, or like the civil society sector, public sector, private sector, what would you recommend doing first? If you could make recommendations about like, which sector? Kind of which, like starting with government before going through the rest of it? How would you if someone didn't really know what they wanted to do at first, how would you offer them advice?
Chris Covino 57:10
I think it's a win win. Like it's like, if you get pizza and soda, are you going to eat the pizza first or drink soda first, right? Like, you're going to learn either way. Obviously, private sector will probably pay more, and you probably have debt maybe, so that's probably a benefit. But I think, again, I'm not, I don't have international experience like these three. But I think don't stress it just do what job is better. Maybe it's someone you want to work under more, maybe it's, you know, a job that might get you out of your comfort zone more, which will be good, something you want to learn. So take it in individual stride. And just you know, make that decision. You can always go back and forth. You know, my plan throughout life will be back and forth government and private sector. It's okay to change. So I wouldn't stress about it, I guess long story short, but I'd love to hear what the others think.
Gregory Anderson 58:03
I agree, I think that, you know, you can't go wrong with what path you choose. You just have to be focused on choosing the path. And, you know, getting a degree for us, we don't care what you get a degree in. It's the fact that you acquire that degree that proves that you are capable of starting something, finishing something, and capable of learning. So you know, if you've really focused too narrowly on "Oh, I have to do this. I have to just go in the government or the private sector." Don't pigeonhole yourself like that, broaden your horizons. Because, you know, Chris mentioned that he's not the typical cybersecurity guy, but listening to him like he is extremely marketable. I'd love to recruit him to come and work in diplomatic security, because he has a broad background, and he brings it in from all the different sectors. So try it. You may like government, or you may find out like, "Oh, these bureaucrats are horrible. I can't do this anymore." And you go to something else. But, you know, don't be afraid to just explore, because you just never know where you're gonna end up. And that's not a bad thing. I think that's a positive thing. It gives you, you know, if somebody's just always on this one, what have they, how have they broadened their perspective to bring other ideas to the table? They've really kind of limited themselves in my opinion.
Katelyn Choe 59:40
What if you were to perceive your job as not a landing point, but a stepping stone? Right? And so you're not paralyzed from the fear of am I making the right choice? Right, but it's about what's the next step for me? And I think it's very easy to get trapped in the mindset of either or. I'm a very black and white binary, yes or no, right? Either or. But, pause and say, "Is there a third way, is there a both and to this?" Right. And maybe the both hand is to be able to say, "Hmm it's not this," but maybe as a result of that - being in that particular job - that you met your wife, or you met a person who gave you an idea about something that you wouldn't have considered, right. And so it's hard, it is hard, I don't envy where you are. I mean, you are sitting in your seat, you know, at the most prestigious schools and the pressure is high, I get it. But give yourself the permission to fail. I have this acronym fail, as faithful attempt in learning. Faithful attempt in learning. That brings about expansiveness, permission, a lot of self empathy for you to embrace it as "Okay, what do I have to learn from this job?" If you were to perceive each of your jobs as another university like "I'm going to attend that university - job X? What am I going to learn from here? What degree am I going to get from that particular job?" Maybe perhaps that might give you courage to take that leap, take that step forward.
Alexander Messmann 1:01:43
Take it from my own experience, you know. I had, again, a master's degree and I started at a very low position, being a membership associate. I think what I take away from this is it doesn't - and that kind of follows the same line that I heard before - is that, you know, it doesn't matter what it is that you're starting out with, you know. Each situation presents its own challenges, and maybe also its own growth opportunity. And as you then are, in whatever you then do, is to look out for where are growth paths, where are the opportunities to learn more, and then seize on that. Even if that starts out very low. If you then realize, okay, the challenges are, whatever it could be finance, it could be, could be marketing could be, then that you then are willing to take up the challenge, and grow with it. And in the end, I think as as you grow with the task, that experience of growth, will give you pleasure, it will give you satisfaction. And as others realize that you are growing in competence and are accomplishing things, that creates a feedback and that keeps you growing. And I think that's what I think is important: that you look out for challenges, and it doesn't matter where you are. There are always challenges, and then seize them and grow with them. And always focus on you know, that you feel that you're growing. And not just that you're standing still and kind of doing something repetitive and boring. But really try to be in a situation where you see the challenge, and where you do see an opportunity for growth. And that could be again, anything, you know, as long as you seek that out, and not just, you know, rest on your laurels and sit there and then look at five o'clock and go home. That's really, then you're not going to be satisfied, then you don't grow. And I think it's, neither for your employer nor for you, very satisfactory. But if you look for the challenge, and you and you grow with it, that will give you satisfaction.
Katelyn Choe 1:04:16
It was a question in the back gentleman there in the blue shirt.
Audience Question 2 1:04:19
That honest, honestly, that was basically my question but phrased better. Just general advice about what first of what first steps to take out from once you leave university and trying to attain different careers and such. Before, will you have any particular advice in terms that's relevant specifically to immediately looking for employment after university? For the first time, if that makes sense?
Alexandra Lieben 1:04:58
Maybe we focus on that versus continuing school, you mean, that trade off, continue education or, or work for a few years, your opinions?
Alexander Messmann 1:05:11
First of all, I think in today's day and age, you shouldn't just finish with a bachelor's. I mean, I have my daughter, you know, she graduated, just about a year before the pandemic from Wesleyan. She now then moved to Berlin. She had a job there at a startup doing social marketing, it didn't quite work out. Now, she lives in Tblisi for a while. That's in Georgia, not Georgia in United States, but the Tblisi is the capital of Georgia in the country of Georgia. And, you know, I recommend to her that she goes back to school and at least get a master's degree because I think, yes, with a bachelor's, you certainly have a general education. But I think with a master's degree, you begin to specialize. And again, you, you develop more expertise in, in not necessarily in just one field because you can still be a generalist. I have, again, a master's in administrative science as a generalist, and not necessarily where I just focus on one particular area. But at least I think it hones your skills, your not only your academic skills but your writing skills, your research skills, and I think today's employers probably look for a more advanced degree than just the bachelor's. That's my sense of it. Well, I'll probably leave it at that.
Alexandra Lieben 1:06:58
I have the same time, because I'm sitting here at the university here, having this conversation of there's an opportunity cost to - is that students are so aware of how expensive graduate school is, that it's like sort of the desire to figure out what's the right degree for me is more important than it used to be. So I find a lot more people go and work for a few years. It's like trying to figure out, you know, "Where do I belong?" Like, is law really what I want to do, right, like intern in a law office, or wherever else is like. Lily like, you can't lose. Just try something. But it's the same, right? It's like, when because you plunk out a lot of money these days. And that's what but yes, I agree with you. It's like going back, for sure.
Alexander Messmann 1:07:37
It doesn't necessarily mean you have to do it right away. Right. You know, I would say yes. Maybe you do it, do it. Yeah. I mean, take a job in between, but be prepared to go back to school and get a master's degree.
Katelyn Choe 1:07:53
Do it and do it for the right reason, not just because you want to postpone the inevitability of the reality that you have to face, right? There's people who are perpetual students because they don't want to make that decision. Make the goddamn decision. Take that first step. And make the mistake. That's okay. To be a diplomat, did you know that all you need is a high school degree. You don't even need a college degree. You go and you take the test, the Foreign Service exam, which is offered three times a year and it's free. Right. And so there's lots of opportunities, opportunity costs, I think, for perseverating in indecision, right? What should I do and you're paralyzed? There isn't a right step. There's a step. And you make the next step. And you make the next step.
Alexandra Lieben 1:08:47
Think about science, right? How does science advance? Experiments. Right? If it works, you keep going? If it doesn't work, take another direction. So it's kind of similar. I would like to take several questions.
Audience Question 3 1:09:01
Yeah. My question was mostly for Mr. Messmann. Because I wanted to ask, if it has been difficult for you to start working in the US, and working your way up in the organization here in Los Angeles, and the World Affairs Councils since you studied in Europe, and I assume you're not a US citizen.
Alexander Messmann 1:09:22
No, I am now. No, I wasn't then. I just became a citizen two years ago.
Audience Question 3 1:09:29
Yeah, like when you started how was it? Because I was from Europe.
Alexander Messmann 1:09:35
Well, first of all, when you work for an organization that is focused on international relations that gives you an environment that is already open to at least some international diversity. Okay. And also, talking about Los Angeles and not really some, you know, other state in the United States, where probably they may not necessarily be as open to foreigners. So my experience here in LA has been has been quite positive. I mean, there's always a language issue. But you know, I had English in high school. And then of course, I went to Howard. So you get better. I mean, you now are at UCLA. So probably your language skills fairly good. And, you know, clearly, it doesn't matter where you would go in the United States. Certainly, some areas are more cosmopolitan than others. And I clearly knew I didn't want to go just anywhere. LA, certainly in New York, Boston, there are certain places I would want to go. But earlier, I wasn't prepared to go elsewhere.
Audience Question 3 1:11:12
And maybe extend the question to the other panelists, if you have worked with European or international colleagues, and how has the experience for them?
Alexandra Lieben 1:11:26
You mean in the United States or abroad?
Gregory Anderson 1:11:28
So I did two tours in Europe. I worked in the Czech Republic, and also Warsaw, Poland. I was I worked in Moscow, Russia, as well. So you get a different perspective, and learning how people do things. And it makes you much wiser, because there are more than one way to do things. And I'm probably more open to an international - I like getting exposed to different folks and cultures, and you learn, and it's fascinating because we Americans, you know, we think we know everything, right? And we don't, and you learn that and you get humbled very quickly, when you realize, wow, they do things much better in the Czech Republic than we do this per se. And, you know, the Germans, I mean, you wow, they are so good and regimented on some things. And you're like, "That's dedication." So, don't be afraid to be here as a foreign student as you know, coming back to live here. You will be welcome. Lots of lots of states would you know want that, you know? What's the buzzwords everybody's saying now? Diversity and inclusion. You're marketable just for that fact that you're bilingual, trilingual maybe? That's a benefit, that's a plus. May I ask what what country?
Audience Question 3 1:11:37
I'm Italian.
Gregory Anderson 1:12:04
Italian? There you go. Right. The Italians have a great sense of style, right? I like those little Fiats, I'm like, wow, they really do better than like General Motors. Not plugging one company over another. But yeah, sorry.
Alexandra Lieben 1:13:18
Katelyn, do you want to add anything?
Katelyn Choe 1:13:20
We have over 273 consulates and embassies around the world, and I think many people don't know that the majority of the people who work at our embassies and consulates are our local staff, who are our advisors. Right? And so we really look to them their their institutional knowledge working at that particular embassy, whether it's in Milan or Rome, or Paris and London, we rely on a local staff to be able to do our job.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai