1
00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:06,150
like to welcome you to the to see Matt's
2
00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:07,799
first new meeting and we are so
3
00:00:06,150 --> 00:00:10,290
delighted that so many of you have
4
00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:13,170
chosen to join us let me begin by
5
00:00:10,290 --> 00:00:15,240
thanking our co-sponsors the UCLA
6
00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:16,320
International Institute Luskin School of
7
00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,869
Public Affairs
8
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,640
Nazarian Center for Israel studies
9
00:00:18,869 --> 00:00:23,340
berkel Center for international
10
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:26,820
relations and the Department of Public
11
00:00:23,340 --> 00:00:28,800
Policy as you all know our speaker today
12
00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:31,410
is Steve Saperstein someone with a
13
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:35,340
fascinating background practicing law
14
00:00:31,410 --> 00:00:37,739
for more than 35 years including serving
15
00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:39,480
as a US federal prosecutor and as the
16
00:00:37,739 --> 00:00:42,140
chief legal officer of two large
17
00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:45,149
companies Verizon Wireless and
18
00:00:42,140 --> 00:00:46,680
blackberry he is today a senior fellow
19
00:00:45,149 --> 00:00:49,350
at our Center for Middle East
20
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,660
development at UCLA he also is a
21
00:00:49,350 --> 00:00:53,789
lecturer in UCLA's global studies
22
00:00:51,660 --> 00:00:56,879
program and the Luskin School of Public
23
00:00:53,789 --> 00:00:59,160
Affairs and various programs within each
24
00:00:56,879 --> 00:01:00,780
where he has quickly emerged as an
25
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,270
extremely popular figure for our
26
00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:05,760
students in addition to his new role as
27
00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:07,770
a teacher Steve zipper soon is becoming
28
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,900
a prolific writer and he is now running
29
00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:13,409
for books on law and the arab-israeli
30
00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:17,130
conflict the first one the trials of
31
00:01:13,409 --> 00:01:20,040
Palestine is just out from relish and is
32
00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:23,520
the topic of our talk today ladies and
33
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,650
gentlemen Steve zipper Steve thank you
34
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,259
so much professor Spiegel thank you to
35
00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:31,229
Seema thank you to the amazing staff and
36
00:01:28,259 --> 00:01:33,560
to the other UCLA sponsors welcome
37
00:01:31,229 --> 00:01:36,329
everyone it's great to see all of you
38
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:39,920
let me put my slides up and we'll get
39
00:01:36,329 --> 00:01:42,689
started well when people think about the
40
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,640
israeli-palestinian conflict usually the
41
00:01:42,689 --> 00:01:47,040
law is not the first thing that comes to
42
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:49,079
mind although some people will say that
43
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,329
in the last 15-20 years in fact
44
00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:53,310
especially the Palestinians have used
45
00:01:51,329 --> 00:01:55,049
the law quite effectively at the
46
00:01:53,310 --> 00:01:57,570
International Court of Justice at the
47
00:01:55,049 --> 00:02:01,049
International Criminal Court but as a
48
00:01:57,570 --> 00:02:03,299
matter of fact both the Palestinians and
49
00:02:01,049 --> 00:02:06,329
the Jews have been using the law as a
50
00:02:03,299 --> 00:02:08,129
tool a weapon a resource against each
51
00:02:06,329 --> 00:02:10,950
other for the better part of the last
52
00:02:08,129 --> 00:02:13,440
century even during Ottoman times the
53
00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:13,860
Palestinians and Jews were accustomed to
54
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,870
file
55
00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:18,450
petitions with the Sultan and content
56
00:02:15,870 --> 00:02:21,240
and Constantinople and after the British
57
00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:23,760
arrived at the end of World War one the
58
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,400
British joined the fray as well using
59
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:29,190
the law along with the Jews and the
60
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,800
Arabs as a way to gain leverage against
61
00:02:29,190 --> 00:02:34,440
each other and as a way to influence
62
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:37,380
international opinion no more so than in
63
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:42,510
three long forgotten trials you see them
64
00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:45,770
on the Left 1929 1930 1936 and 37 in
65
00:02:42,510 --> 00:02:48,180
which the parties used outside lawyers
66
00:02:45,770 --> 00:02:50,970
witnesses testified under oath and were
67
00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:52,489
cross-examined under oath exhibits and
68
00:02:50,970 --> 00:02:56,760
documents were introduced into evidence
69
00:02:52,489 --> 00:02:59,190
and these trials largely focused on two
70
00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,500
key issues in the conflict that remained
71
00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:03,660
controversial that remain the subject of
72
00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:05,430
legal debate to this very day of the
73
00:03:03,660 --> 00:03:08,670
first you see it there the McMahon
74
00:03:05,430 --> 00:03:11,250
Hussein Balfour issue whether or not the
75
00:03:08,670 --> 00:03:14,970
pledge that the British made to Hussein
76
00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:16,680
in 1915 was then later undermined by the
77
00:03:14,970 --> 00:03:19,230
Balfour Declaration I'll talk about that
78
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,180
in a moment and then secondly who owns
79
00:03:19,230 --> 00:03:23,940
the Western Wall the Wailing Wall the
80
00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:25,709
Barak and the Muslims were the Jews and
81
00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:28,080
what are the rights and claims of the
82
00:03:25,709 --> 00:03:31,320
parties to the wall let me give you some
83
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:34,049
background on those two issues here you
84
00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,060
see Sir Henry McMahon the British High
85
00:03:34,049 --> 00:03:39,120
Commissioner were ambassador to Egypt
86
00:03:36,060 --> 00:03:42,360
during World War one Britain of course
87
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,280
fighting against Germany and Turkey and
88
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,650
the government in London authorized
89
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,690
McMahon to engage in a series of
90
00:03:46,650 --> 00:03:52,350
correspondence with the Sharif Hussein
91
00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:54,570
the leader of the hijazi Arabs
92
00:03:52,350 --> 00:03:57,299
modern-day Saudi Arabia a province of
93
00:03:54,570 --> 00:04:00,330
the Ottoman Empire and essentially the
94
00:03:57,299 --> 00:04:02,489
back and forth between McMahon and
95
00:04:00,330 --> 00:04:05,549
Hussein was McMahon trying to convince
96
00:04:02,489 --> 00:04:07,650
Hussein to rise up against the Turks to
97
00:04:05,549 --> 00:04:10,260
join forces with the British in the war
98
00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:12,630
and Hussein in return demanded
99
00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:14,700
independence for the Arabs after the war
100
00:04:12,630 --> 00:04:17,609
and so there were a variety of letters
101
00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:20,519
exchanged between them in 1915 and 1916
102
00:04:17,609 --> 00:04:23,370
the key letter the most important one
103
00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:26,460
you see here a letter from McMahon to
104
00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:29,460
Hussein October 24 1915 in
105
00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:31,620
which McMahon confirms that the
106
00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:34,500
government in London has authorized him
107
00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:37,229
to pledge to the Arabs that they will be
108
00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:40,319
independent after the war but with two
109
00:04:37,229 --> 00:04:42,780
big exceptions the first exception is
110
00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:45,300
that the pledge only covers those
111
00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:47,340
geographic areas where Britain is free
112
00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:49,830
to act without detriment to the
113
00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:52,169
interests of its ally France and then
114
00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:55,020
secondly you see the language that has
115
00:04:52,169 --> 00:04:57,630
become so much contested here at the
116
00:04:55,020 --> 00:05:01,110
bottom the letter from McMahon said that
117
00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:05,280
portions of Syria lying to the west of
118
00:05:01,110 --> 00:05:07,289
the districts of Damascus Homs Hama and
119
00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:09,240
Aleppo this north-south line that I'm
120
00:05:07,289 --> 00:05:12,330
showing you here along the Hijazi
121
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:15,330
railway that portions of Syria lying to
122
00:05:12,330 --> 00:05:16,860
the west of that line cannot be said to
123
00:05:15,330 --> 00:05:20,099
be purely Arab and are therefore
124
00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:22,919
excluded from the pledge and for the
125
00:05:20,099 --> 00:05:25,830
last hundred and five years Jewish
126
00:05:22,919 --> 00:05:28,409
lawyers Palestinian Arab lawyers British
127
00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:31,470
lawyers have argued about what that
128
00:05:28,409 --> 00:05:34,169
language meant designed the west of the
129
00:05:31,470 --> 00:05:36,120
I mean just Lebanon did it mean the
130
00:05:34,169 --> 00:05:39,300
villa yet of Beirut which would include
131
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:42,360
the upper half of modern-day Israel as
132
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:44,580
well as the sanjak of Jerusalem did the
133
00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:47,460
word district which was not a recognised
134
00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:50,219
term in ottoman administrative law did
135
00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:53,070
that mean something else for example the
136
00:05:50,219 --> 00:05:54,780
villa yet of Syria that has been argued
137
00:05:53,070 --> 00:05:57,030
about for the last hundred and five
138
00:05:54,780 --> 00:05:58,590
years and was an issue in two of the
139
00:05:57,030 --> 00:06:00,960
three trials that we're going to talk
140
00:05:58,590 --> 00:06:03,090
about today two years and one month
141
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,370
after McMahon sent that letter to
142
00:06:03,090 --> 00:06:07,469
Hussein the British government issued
143
00:06:05,370 --> 00:06:09,270
the Balfour Declaration a letter that
144
00:06:07,469 --> 00:06:12,330
you see here from the Foreign Secretary
145
00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:15,419
Lord Balfour to a leading Jew in Britain
146
00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:17,759
Lord Rothschild the famous 67 words
147
00:06:15,419 --> 00:06:19,650
appear here in quotes the British
148
00:06:17,759 --> 00:06:21,990
government viewing with favor the
149
00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:24,449
establishment in Palestine of a national
150
00:06:21,990 --> 00:06:25,919
home for the Jewish people and saying
151
00:06:24,449 --> 00:06:27,900
that it's clearly understood that
152
00:06:25,919 --> 00:06:30,449
nothing will be done which may prejudice
153
00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:32,610
the civil and religious rights of the
154
00:06:30,449 --> 00:06:35,339
existing non-jewish communities in
155
00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:37,680
Palestine and just like the letter from
156
00:06:35,339 --> 00:06:40,200
McMahon to Hussein this letter from
157
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,990
Balfour to Rothschild has also been our
158
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,450
get about in the three trials that we're
159
00:06:42,990 --> 00:06:48,330
going to talk about as well as in other
160
00:06:45,450 --> 00:06:50,880
legal forums for the last hundred and
161
00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:52,590
three years what does in Palestine mean
162
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,260
part or all of Palestine
163
00:06:52,590 --> 00:06:57,270
what does national hoe mean a cultural
164
00:06:55,260 --> 00:07:00,660
center a state and so we'll talk about
165
00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:02,760
that as well so two years after the
166
00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:05,280
Balfour Declaration the Treaty of
167
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,870
Versailles is signed and the beginning
168
00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,940
of the Treaty of Versailles contains the
169
00:07:06,870 --> 00:07:11,250
Covenant of the League of Nations and
170
00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:14,490
these two provisions of the Covenant
171
00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:17,430
articles 20 and 22 were also hotly
172
00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:19,410
debated in two of these three trials but
173
00:07:17,430 --> 00:07:22,860
the position of the Palestinian Arabs
174
00:07:19,410 --> 00:07:25,070
was that article 20 which abrogates
175
00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:27,810
all inconsistent obligations
176
00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:30,840
automatically invalidated the Balfour
177
00:07:27,810 --> 00:07:33,240
Declaration why because article 22 says
178
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,910
that independence will be granted to
179
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,880
certain communities formerly belonging
180
00:07:35,910 --> 00:07:41,310
to the British Empire not the Jewish
181
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,110
people at large as the Balfour
182
00:07:41,310 --> 00:07:45,960
Declaration had promised but the
183
00:07:43,110 --> 00:07:48,480
Palestinian Arab population who formerly
184
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,970
belonged to the Ottoman Empire and this
185
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,040
language was the subject of testimony
186
00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:56,040
and legal argument in two of the three
187
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,540
trials well during the time that the
188
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,610
Covenant of the League of Nations and
189
00:07:57,540 --> 00:08:02,160
the Treaty of Versailles were being
190
00:07:59,610 --> 00:08:04,650
formulated here you see Prince Faisal
191
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,020
one of the sons of the Sharif Hussein
192
00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:09,030
his other son was Abdullah who went on
193
00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:12,180
to become the first king of Jordan the
194
00:08:09,030 --> 00:08:14,580
grandfather of the current king and here
195
00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:18,210
you see Faisal and Bites Minh January
196
00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:20,520
3rd 1919 and they sign an agreement and
197
00:08:18,210 --> 00:08:22,560
you see Bites Minh signature at the
198
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,750
bottom physalis just above his with a
199
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,820
with a caveat that Faisal wrote in
200
00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:28,770
Arabic translated here on the right by
201
00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:31,470
Colonel Lawrence Lawrence of Arabia who
202
00:08:28,770 --> 00:08:33,270
was accompanying Faisal and essentially
203
00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:37,950
this agreement between bites Minh and
204
00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:40,590
Faisal says that Phi Saul will more or
205
00:08:37,950 --> 00:08:42,990
less recognize the Zionist aspirations
206
00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:45,210
not statehood but the idea of a Jewish
207
00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:46,830
National Home in exchange for which
208
00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:49,830
Weitzman and the Jews will provide
209
00:08:46,830 --> 00:08:52,500
economic assistance and the the caveat
210
00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:54,120
that Faisal wrote essentially said that
211
00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:56,520
unless Britain
212
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,760
plies with its obligations then I can't
213
00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,980
be held to this agreement but again
214
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,660
unclear what obligations Faisal was
215
00:09:01,980 --> 00:09:06,270
referring to later on
216
00:09:03,660 --> 00:09:08,190
Weitzman when he testified in the Royal
217
00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:10,410
Commission the third of the three trials
218
00:09:08,190 --> 00:09:14,400
Weitzman would call this document to
219
00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:16,080
treaty just as the mufti of Jerusalem
220
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,380
would refer to the McMahon Hussein
221
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:22,290
letter also as a treaty if I saw but
222
00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:24,060
another letter in 1919 two months after
223
00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:26,339
his agreement with Weitzman this time to
224
00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:28,529
the head of the Zionist Organization of
225
00:09:26,339 --> 00:09:30,930
America future Supreme Court justice
226
00:09:28,529 --> 00:09:32,750
Felix Frankfurter expressing deep
227
00:09:30,930 --> 00:09:34,770
sympathy with the scientists movement
228
00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:36,870
characterizing proposals submitted by
229
00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:38,910
the Zionists as moderate and proper and
230
00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:41,670
wishing the Jews a most hearty welcome
231
00:09:38,910 --> 00:09:44,670
home to Palestine and then at the end of
232
00:09:41,670 --> 00:09:47,400
1919 fly saw wrote yet a third letter
233
00:09:44,670 --> 00:09:49,589
this one to Herbert Samuel the future
234
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,020
first British High Commissioner or
235
00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:55,140
ambassador to Palestine referring back
236
00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:57,720
to the January 1919 agreement with Bites
237
00:09:55,140 --> 00:10:00,029
Minh and confirming that he and Bites
238
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:04,140
been were in perfect Accord in their
239
00:10:00,029 --> 00:10:07,290
point of view after that letter a few
240
00:10:04,140 --> 00:10:10,080
months later 1920 the victorious powers
241
00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:13,410
Allied powers in World War one met at
242
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:16,020
San Remo Italy and demarcated this area
243
00:10:13,410 --> 00:10:18,029
in white for the future Mandate for
244
00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:21,300
Palestine to be awarded to Britain and
245
00:10:18,029 --> 00:10:23,610
you note that the area to be demarcated
246
00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:25,520
to Britain included the modern-day Gaza
247
00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:27,959
Strip in Israel the modern-day
248
00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,850
Palestinian territories in the West Bank
249
00:10:27,959 --> 00:10:32,630
as well as the modern state of Jordan
250
00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:36,540
but very quickly thereafter in 1923
251
00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:38,430
Britain separated the mandate on this
252
00:10:36,540 --> 00:10:41,610
north-south axis from Mutulu down to
253
00:10:38,430 --> 00:10:44,790
Aqaba creating Transjordan which became
254
00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:48,450
independent obviously in 1947 well by
255
00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:50,910
nineteen late 1920 1921 of Faisal
256
00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:54,150
Hussein Abdullah changed their position
257
00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:55,980
and were no longer as sympathetic to
258
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:58,860
Zionist aspirations as they had been in
259
00:10:55,980 --> 00:11:00,420
1919 and in fact engaged in a
260
00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:03,570
correspondence with the Colonial
261
00:11:00,420 --> 00:11:07,140
Secretary Winston Churchill arguing that
262
00:11:03,570 --> 00:11:07,900
McMahon had pledged in that 1915 letter
263
00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:11,020
about Oh
264
00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:13,570
had pledged Palestine to the Arabs as
265
00:11:11,020 --> 00:11:16,720
part of the areas to be ruled by Arabs
266
00:11:13,570 --> 00:11:19,960
after the war but Churchill rejected
267
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:23,140
that claim saying that McMahons letter
268
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:25,030
was intended to include the entire villa
269
00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:27,430
yet to Beirut and the sanjak of
270
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:30,130
Jerusalem meaning all the Palestine
271
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:32,260
west of the Jordan River was excluded
272
00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:35,290
from the Pledge of Independence that
273
00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:37,660
McMahon made to Hussein Churchill
274
00:11:35,290 --> 00:11:39,970
reiterated that the Jews were in
275
00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:41,470
Palestine as of right and not on
276
00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:44,170
sufferance but at the same time
277
00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:46,390
Churchill criticized a recent speech by
278
00:11:44,170 --> 00:11:48,850
the Jewish leader hind Weitzman for
279
00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:51,850
saying that Palestine would be as Jewish
280
00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:53,890
as England is English and so we see here
281
00:11:51,850 --> 00:11:56,410
the beginning of Britain trying to kind
282
00:11:53,890 --> 00:11:58,150
of have their cake and eat it too so
283
00:11:56,410 --> 00:12:00,490
that's the background Primack man
284
00:11:58,150 --> 00:12:02,770
Hussein and now let me shift gears to
285
00:12:00,490 --> 00:12:06,100
the Wailing Wall I'm showing you a
286
00:12:02,770 --> 00:12:09,760
photograph Amos for general Allenby
287
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:11,290
number 11 1917 the British Army has
288
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,320
marched into the Old City of Jerusalem
289
00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:16,810
through the Jaffa Gate Allenby reading a
290
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,060
proclamation to the assembled people in
291
00:12:16,810 --> 00:12:22,240
Jerusalem five years later that
292
00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:25,120
Proclamation was codified in article 13
293
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,600
of the Mandate for Palestine and the
294
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,270
ëthe set forth the key legal principle
295
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,090
known as the status quo that governed
296
00:12:31,270 --> 00:12:34,300
all the holy sites including the Wailing
297
00:12:34,090 --> 00:12:37,660
Wall
298
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:39,280
well Allenby said that Britain was not
299
00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:41,920
going to change anything as a result of
300
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,870
his capture of Jerusalem in fact all the
301
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,370
existing customs and beliefs of the
302
00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:47,500
various religions Christian Muslim
303
00:12:45,370 --> 00:12:50,050
Jewish would be protected and as I said
304
00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:52,810
that concept of the status quo was
305
00:12:50,050 --> 00:12:55,090
codified in article 13 of the mandate
306
00:12:52,810 --> 00:12:57,430
which the incoming British civilian
307
00:12:55,090 --> 00:13:00,190
government took very seriously and
308
00:12:57,430 --> 00:13:03,280
treated as an enforceable legal
309
00:13:00,190 --> 00:13:05,920
provision this is a photograph from the
310
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,170
cover of my book taken in the 1920s you
311
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,150
see the Orthodox Jews looking at the
312
00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:12,880
Wailing Wall the western wall of the
313
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:15,820
ancient Jewish temples this is the
314
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,700
holiest spot for Jews the place where
315
00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:21,220
the divine spirit the Shekinah is said
316
00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:23,410
to reside also Muslims
317
00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:26,199
claim the wall is holy they referred to
318
00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:28,449
it as the Barack named after Mohammed's
319
00:13:26,199 --> 00:13:30,639
horse that Muhammad rode on his
320
00:13:28,449 --> 00:13:32,889
celestial journey from Mecca tethering
321
00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:36,939
the horse at some point along the wall
322
00:13:32,889 --> 00:13:40,110
these structures here which existed for
323
00:13:36,939 --> 00:13:42,879
centuries after the Muslim conquest in
324
00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:46,810
638 all the way through Turkish times
325
00:13:42,879 --> 00:13:48,569
all the way until 1967 these were places
326
00:13:46,810 --> 00:13:51,009
where Muslim pilgrims would stay
327
00:13:48,569 --> 00:13:52,750
visiting the al-aqsa mosque off to the
328
00:13:51,009 --> 00:13:55,689
right the Dome of the rock there on the
329
00:13:52,750 --> 00:13:57,730
left this was known as the Mogra B or
330
00:13:55,689 --> 00:13:59,889
Moroccan Quarter here I'm showing you
331
00:13:57,730 --> 00:14:02,019
what it looks like today obviously very
332
00:13:59,889 --> 00:14:05,079
different after the six-day war Israel
333
00:14:02,019 --> 00:14:06,970
captured the old city and here you see
334
00:14:05,079 --> 00:14:09,730
they changed the facts on the ground and
335
00:14:06,970 --> 00:14:13,779
bulldozed away the Mogra quarter but
336
00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:16,420
taking you back to the 1920s his aerial
337
00:14:13,779 --> 00:14:19,120
photo shows you just how narrow the
338
00:14:16,420 --> 00:14:20,980
pavement area was in front of the wall
339
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,920
you see the Mogra B quarter on the left
340
00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:26,559
the Mufti Haj Amin al-husseini lived
341
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,079
there here's another view again in the
342
00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:30,819
lower left you see the very small area
343
00:14:29,079 --> 00:14:32,949
where the pavement and the wall is as
344
00:14:30,819 --> 00:14:35,949
compared to the larger more grippy
345
00:14:32,949 --> 00:14:39,569
quarter that existed at the time now let
346
00:14:35,949 --> 00:14:42,309
me show you this photograph from 1865
347
00:14:39,569 --> 00:14:44,259
during Turkish times during the Ottoman
348
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:46,750
Empire Jews were allowed to come to the
349
00:14:44,259 --> 00:14:50,230
wall to pray you see them holding prayer
350
00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:51,730
books no Torah no chairs no benches no
351
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:54,009
screen the men and women are here
352
00:14:51,730 --> 00:14:57,370
together I want to just call your
353
00:14:54,009 --> 00:14:59,319
attention to the dirt area here I'll
354
00:14:57,370 --> 00:15:01,120
come back to that in a minute
355
00:14:59,319 --> 00:15:03,399
this photograph was submitted into
356
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,290
evidence in one of the trials when the
357
00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:07,480
Jews were arguing that in fact they were
358
00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:09,850
allowed to bring chairs from time to
359
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,730
time to the wall and this is a
360
00:15:09,850 --> 00:15:15,250
photograph taken on Yom Kippur when the
361
00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:18,240
Jews would flock to the wall on the
362
00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:21,389
holiest day in the Jewish calendar
363
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,550
during the 1920s there were occasional
364
00:15:21,389 --> 00:15:26,439
spats at the wall disagreements both
365
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:28,480
sides accusing the other of violating
366
00:15:26,439 --> 00:15:30,850
the status quo remember it's an
367
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,100
enforceable legal principle the British
368
00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:34,930
police would enforce it making sure that
369
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:36,700
the Jews were not able to do anything
370
00:15:34,930 --> 00:15:39,100
or than they could do at the wall under
371
00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:41,170
Turkish rule nor would the Muslims be
372
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:43,180
able to prevent the Jews from doing that
373
00:15:41,170 --> 00:15:46,870
which they could do under Turkish rule
374
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:49,630
but in 1928 an Orthodox rabbi visiting
375
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:52,390
from Poland tried to put a screen on the
376
00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:52,959
pizza in Hebrew to divide the lemon from
377
00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:55,750
the men
378
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:57,880
the Muslims complained about it to the
379
00:15:55,750 --> 00:16:00,370
deputy district commissioner in charge
380
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,100
of Jerusalem this fellow here Edward
381
00:16:00,370 --> 00:16:05,980
Keith Roach and Keith roach ordered the
382
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:08,320
British police to forcibly remove the
383
00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:10,779
screen because its presence violated the
384
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,370
status quo the Muslim Arabs were always
385
00:16:10,779 --> 00:16:14,410
deeply concerned that if the Jews
386
00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:16,690
brought a screen if they brought chairs
387
00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:18,790
if they brought any other accoutrements
388
00:16:16,690 --> 00:16:21,700
of ownership to the wall that would be
389
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:23,920
the first step to the Jews trying to lay
390
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:27,089
claim to the Temple Mount the Haram
391
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:30,100
al-sharif and rebuild the ancient temple
392
00:16:27,089 --> 00:16:31,510
this is Sir Harry Luke the number two
393
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:35,529
official in the British administration
394
00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:39,790
in Palestine who wrote in his diary on
395
00:16:35,529 --> 00:16:42,490
the day of Yom Kippur September 24 1928
396
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:44,529
about the incident involving the screen
397
00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:48,339
which was removed by the British police
398
00:16:44,529 --> 00:16:50,560
and here very interestingly we see in a
399
00:16:48,339 --> 00:16:53,620
different color ink indicating that
400
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,959
perhaps a Luke came back later and added
401
00:16:53,620 --> 00:16:59,740
this sentence to his diary in which he
402
00:16:55,959 --> 00:17:02,260
says kar Keith Roach told me that quote
403
00:16:59,740 --> 00:17:05,610
nothing more would be heard of it
404
00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:08,740
meaning the incident with the screen and
405
00:17:05,610 --> 00:17:11,829
folks nothing could have been further
406
00:17:08,740 --> 00:17:15,280
from the truth because there was a huge
407
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:17,220
outcry about this green incident now
408
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,630
both the Jews and the Muslims filed
409
00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:21,010
complaints petitions with the permanent
410
00:17:19,630 --> 00:17:23,350
mandates Commission of the League of
411
00:17:21,010 --> 00:17:25,780
Nations and the British government felt
412
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:28,150
compelled a couple of months later to
413
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:30,400
issue a white paper reiterating its
414
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:33,130
commitment to enforcing the status quo
415
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,320
and defending the actions of the British
416
00:17:33,130 --> 00:17:38,890
police and the British administration in
417
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,929
Jerusalem for removing the screen but
418
00:17:38,890 --> 00:17:43,570
the British government still had some
419
00:17:40,929 --> 00:17:47,140
doubts about his legal position and so
420
00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:48,640
in early 1929 it asked its two top
421
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:50,950
lawyers the Attorney
422
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,980
and the Solicitor General to render a
423
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:55,809
legal opinion to the British government
424
00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:58,000
about what could and could not be done
425
00:17:55,809 --> 00:18:00,309
at the wall and this is the actual
426
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,890
opinion here I'll just highlight some of
427
00:18:00,309 --> 00:18:04,900
the key points for you the two lawyers
428
00:18:02,890 --> 00:18:07,480
the AG the Attorney General and the
429
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:10,510
Solicitor General found that the wall
430
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:13,030
was not purely a Muslim sacred shrine
431
00:18:10,510 --> 00:18:16,150
but that when the Jews brought the
432
00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:19,150
screen to the wall they encroached on
433
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:21,370
the rights of the legal owners namely
434
00:18:19,150 --> 00:18:23,860
the Muslims and therefore the British
435
00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:25,690
government had the responsibility under
436
00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:28,480
the mandate to remove the screen and
437
00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:30,100
maintain the status quo but that the
438
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,960
Jews were entitled to conduct their
439
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:34,240
worship without any greater disturbance
440
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,549
than occurred in Turkish times and here
441
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,950
at the bottom you see the ax signature
442
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:41,169
of the Attorney General Thomas M skip
443
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:43,929
and then below his signature the
444
00:18:41,169 --> 00:18:44,500
signature of the Solicitor General FB
445
00:18:43,929 --> 00:18:47,590
Frank
446
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:49,419
Boyd Merryman remember his name because
447
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:52,809
he's going to come back very very
448
00:18:49,419 --> 00:18:57,070
shortly well unfortunately for the rest
449
00:18:52,809 --> 00:18:59,950
of 1929 tensions heightened dramatically
450
00:18:57,070 --> 00:19:02,860
in the area of the western wall the
451
00:18:59,950 --> 00:19:04,809
mufti galvanized Muslim sentiment and
452
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:07,690
Arab nationalist sentiment around the
453
00:19:04,809 --> 00:19:10,480
wall forming the Barak campaign the Jews
454
00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:13,299
likewise and were very very upset about
455
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,520
what they viewed as the unfair treatment
456
00:19:13,299 --> 00:19:18,610
of the British government and on the
457
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,020
holiday or the fast day of Tisha of the
458
00:19:18,610 --> 00:19:22,059
day that the Jews commemorate the
459
00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:26,049
destruction of the temples which was
460
00:19:22,059 --> 00:19:28,600
August 15 1929 a group of young Jews
461
00:19:26,049 --> 00:19:30,700
came from tel-aviv and against British
462
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,520
orders went to the wall and did three
463
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:35,530
things they made a speech they sang the
464
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,690
hatikvah the future national anthem of
465
00:19:35,530 --> 00:19:40,480
Israel and they unfurled the blue and
466
00:19:37,690 --> 00:19:42,880
white star of david' flag the next day
467
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,549
the 16th was the birthday of the Prophet
468
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,530
Mohammed and the Muslims organized a
469
00:19:45,549 --> 00:19:50,200
counter demonstration at the wall
470
00:19:47,530 --> 00:19:52,240
hundreds of people came the
471
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:56,080
demonstration turned violent as Muslims
472
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:58,030
left the area of the wall and over the
473
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,400
next few days tensions were very very
474
00:19:58,030 --> 00:20:01,660
high in Jerusalem culminating on the
475
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,640
23rd in
476
00:20:01,660 --> 00:20:05,620
additional riots in Jerusalem and here
477
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:09,570
you see a very disturbing photograph a
478
00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:13,330
bat and then on the 24th of August 1929
479
00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:15,340
Hebron Massacre the newspaper headline
480
00:20:13,330 --> 00:20:17,290
on the right tells the story on the left
481
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:20,320
you see a photo of a synagogue and
482
00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:22,660
cabrón that was completely sacked and
483
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,760
I'll go back to Harry Luke the
484
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:27,970
number-two official in the British
485
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:30,490
government to his diary he notes that on
486
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:32,410
August 29th a few days after the riot
487
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:34,390
the High Commissioner Sir John
488
00:20:32,410 --> 00:20:37,510
Chancellor returned to Palestine
489
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:39,760
Chancellor had been on home leave Luke
490
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:42,040
pasted into his diary this article from
491
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,560
The Times of London describing Luke's
492
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,780
visit on September 1 been a week after
493
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,760
the riots to Hebron describing the
494
00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:51,040
violence that occurred and I want to
495
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,050
call your attention to this handwritten
496
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,690
comment that Luke made in the in the
497
00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:59,230
bottom at the lower right he says many
498
00:20:55,690 --> 00:21:02,650
Christian homes in Jerusalem and some
499
00:20:59,230 --> 00:21:05,940
Jewish ones have painted large crosses
500
00:21:02,650 --> 00:21:09,220
on their outer walls been imagined
501
00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:11,080
evoking memories of the of the Haggadah
502
00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:14,230
and a tenth plague in the Jews marking
503
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,720
their doors very very dramatic here is
504
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:20,200
John Chancellor the High Commissioner
505
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,570
the Jewish ambassador to Palestine he
506
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,790
returned as we saw on August the 29th
507
00:21:22,570 --> 00:21:27,820
and on September 1 issued this
508
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:31,120
proclamation which essentially condemned
509
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:33,460
the Palestinian Arabs for perpetrating
510
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:36,700
savage murders on defenseless members of
511
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:39,400
the Jewish population in Hebron well the
512
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:42,220
Palestinian Arabs did not take kindly to
513
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,650
this Proclamation they were very very
514
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:46,810
upset they demanded the right to be
515
00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:49,510
heard they demanded the right to present
516
00:21:46,810 --> 00:21:51,640
their grievances they demanded the right
517
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:53,530
to begin to talk about what they viewed
518
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,900
as the injustice that had been
519
00:21:53,530 --> 00:21:58,750
perpetrated upon them when the British
520
00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:01,180
government violated McMahon's pledge and
521
00:21:58,750 --> 00:22:03,640
issued the Balfour Declaration and hind
522
00:22:01,180 --> 00:22:06,850
bites Minh in London the leader of the
523
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:09,340
Jewish Agency likewise demanded a trial
524
00:22:06,850 --> 00:22:11,670
veidt's Minh demanded that outside
525
00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:13,900
lawyers be allowed to go to Jerusalem to
526
00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:14,250
cross-examine the officials of the local
527
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:16,290
British
528
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:18,210
government to essentially put them on
529
00:22:16,290 --> 00:22:21,920
trial and the High Commissioner
530
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:25,320
Chancellor in his diary just a couple of
531
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:28,680
weeks later in October of 1929
532
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,900
I wrote under present conditions I know
533
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,450
of no one who would be a good High
534
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:35,130
Commissioner of Palestine except God
535
00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:37,380
this will give you an idea of the
536
00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:40,380
pressure that Chancellor was feeling and
537
00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:43,110
even more so October 24 he writes I am
538
00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:45,240
so tired and so disgusted with this
539
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:47,880
country and everything connected with it
540
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:51,380
that I only want to leave it as soon as
541
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,910
can do so with that failing in my duty
542
00:22:51,380 --> 00:22:56,820
imagine this is the highest British
543
00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:59,550
official in Palestine who wants nothing
544
00:22:56,820 --> 00:23:02,790
more than to leave because he's under so
545
00:22:59,550 --> 00:23:05,130
much pressure to convene a trial a trial
546
00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:08,280
by the way in which his own government
547
00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:10,310
would become a defendant along with the
548
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,050
Palestinian Arabs as against the
549
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:15,720
accusations of the Palestinian Jewish
550
00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:18,510
population and so our first trial takes
551
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,540
place under the leadership of Walter
552
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:23,760
Shaw an obscure colonial judge who was
553
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:25,800
sent to Palestine along with these three
554
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,450
other members of the Commission
555
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,920
representing each of the three main
556
00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:31,230
British political parties in the
557
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,630
parliament and this fellow Thomas Loyd
558
00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:37,590
who acted as the secretary for the
559
00:23:33,630 --> 00:23:40,110
Commission the Jewish side hired the
560
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:42,360
same Sir Boyd merry men who was one of
561
00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:43,620
the two authors of the legal opinion
562
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,270
that I talked about earlier the
563
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:46,560
government had changed he was no longer
564
00:23:45,270 --> 00:23:49,140
the Solicitor General
565
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:52,320
veidt's Minh wanted the very best lawyer
566
00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:55,650
he could find in the UK and so he paid
567
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:58,170
Mary men an enormous fee of fifty
568
00:23:55,650 --> 00:24:01,530
thousand British pounds plus expenses
569
00:23:58,170 --> 00:24:05,040
to go to Palestine to be the lawyer for
570
00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:07,560
the Jewish side the Palestine government
571
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,290
the local government as I said was also
572
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,450
put on trial here you see the lead
573
00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:14,940
attorney for the Palestine government
574
00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:15,960
Ken elm preety who came from the UK to
575
00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:18,600
represent them
576
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,330
his co-counsel Robert Drayton the
577
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,980
Solicitor General you might ask where
578
00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:25,110
was the Attorney General of Palestine
579
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:27,210
well he was a Jew named Norman bent
580
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:30,360
which and the High Commissioner
581
00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:33,419
ordered him to be recused because of his
582
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:35,850
Pro Zionist sentiment here you see all
583
00:24:33,419 --> 00:24:38,220
of the British police officers who
584
00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:39,260
testified during the trial before the
585
00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:42,779
Shaw Commission
586
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:44,940
this is Ione Bay Abdulhadi shown a few
587
00:24:42,779 --> 00:24:48,539
years later he was the lawyer for the
588
00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:52,289
Palestinian Arabs and urbane brilliant
589
00:24:48,539 --> 00:24:55,049
lawyer trained in Beirut spoke fluent
590
00:24:52,289 --> 00:24:58,049
French and Arabic and he actually made
591
00:24:55,049 --> 00:24:59,010
mincemeat of sir void Merriman and
592
00:24:58,049 --> 00:25:01,710
here's why
593
00:24:59,010 --> 00:25:04,820
um merry-men the lawyer for the Jewish
594
00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:09,120
side showed up in Jerusalem intent on
595
00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:11,909
attacking the local British authorities
596
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:15,600
for not doing enough to protect the Jews
597
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:17,970
against the riots that occurred the role
598
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,010
of the Commission at least in terms of
599
00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:22,529
its terms of reference was simply to
600
00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:25,070
figure out who is to blame for the riots
601
00:25:22,529 --> 00:25:27,179
but Abdul Hadi very brilliantly
602
00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:29,370
convinced the Commission that it needed
603
00:25:27,179 --> 00:25:31,710
to broaden the scope of the inquiry that
604
00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:34,440
it needed to look at the so-called state
605
00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:36,990
of mind of the local Palestinian Arab
606
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,700
population that it needed to look at the
607
00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:41,429
grievances in the sense of injustice
608
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:43,230
that the Palestinian Arabs felt when the
609
00:25:41,429 --> 00:25:45,450
British government had effectively
610
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:47,490
stabbed the Palestinian Arabs in the
611
00:25:45,450 --> 00:25:50,669
back by issuing the Balfour Declaration
612
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:54,090
and undermining the pledges that McMahon
613
00:25:50,669 --> 00:25:57,690
had made to Hussein and merry-men fell
614
00:25:54,090 --> 00:26:00,480
right into the trap because not only by
615
00:25:57,690 --> 00:26:03,600
attacking the local British authorities
616
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,600
did he drive them into the arms of the
617
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,460
of the Palestinian Arabs creating more
618
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,220
or less a tacit alliance between the
619
00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:13,529
Palestinian Arabs and the local British
620
00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:16,710
authorities but when merry-men had a
621
00:26:13,529 --> 00:26:18,870
chance to cross-examine the mufti who is
622
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:22,230
the lead witness that I only Bey called
623
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:24,090
to testify about the Palestinian
624
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:26,460
grievances in the Palestinian state of
625
00:26:24,090 --> 00:26:30,059
mind when Merryman cross-examined him
626
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:32,490
all he did was simply feed the narrative
627
00:26:30,059 --> 00:26:34,100
here at put a couple of questions for
628
00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:36,750
you this is from Merriman's
629
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:38,850
cross-examination he says to the mufti
630
00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:41,059
do you truly believe the Jews intend to
631
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:43,399
take a laksa
632
00:26:41,059 --> 00:26:45,499
do you really believe the Jews intend to
633
00:26:43,399 --> 00:26:49,549
take the actual Temple Mount Kurama Rhea
634
00:26:45,499 --> 00:26:51,860
yes and so Merryman rather than using
635
00:26:49,549 --> 00:26:55,580
his cross-examination to help his
636
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:59,210
clients prove their case actually helped
637
00:26:55,580 --> 00:27:03,049
on eBay prove his case and so this trial
638
00:26:59,210 --> 00:27:05,870
this first trial became much more a
639
00:27:03,049 --> 00:27:08,720
trial pitting Palestinian Arab
640
00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:12,860
nationalism against Zionism than merely
641
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:16,340
a judicial effort to lay blame for the
642
00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:18,379
riots merry-men did such a bad job in
643
00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:21,200
his closing argument he spent his entire
644
00:27:18,379 --> 00:27:23,779
argument attacking his opposing counsel
645
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,360
rather than making his case and he
646
00:27:23,779 --> 00:27:28,490
actually ended his closing argument by
647
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:31,190
closing his book and sitting down in all
648
00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:33,230
huff when he got into a dispute with one
649
00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:35,899
of the commissioners few months later
650
00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:37,369
the Commission rendered its verdict the
651
00:27:35,899 --> 00:27:39,440
Commission found that the immediate
652
00:27:37,369 --> 00:27:41,990
cause of the riots was that Jewish
653
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,899
demonstration on the 15th of August that
654
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:48,019
I talked about and the Commission also
655
00:27:44,899 --> 00:27:50,119
found that the Arab state of mind that I
656
00:27:48,019 --> 00:27:52,100
own eBay was so successful in
657
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,470
introducing into evidence and that the
658
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:56,659
most he was so persuasive and arguing in
659
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:58,879
his testimony that the earth state of
660
00:27:56,659 --> 00:28:01,460
mind was a fundamental cause of the
661
00:27:58,879 --> 00:28:03,799
riots the Commission exonerated the
662
00:28:01,460 --> 00:28:06,169
mufti of any premeditation and the
663
00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:08,690
Commission found that the Muslims owned
664
00:28:06,169 --> 00:28:11,779
both the wall and the pavement
665
00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:13,909
interesting footnote by the way when the
666
00:28:11,779 --> 00:28:16,369
trial was over merriment went back to
667
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:19,220
England hoping to become Lord Chancellor
668
00:28:16,369 --> 00:28:21,769
that didn't happen he served briefly
669
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:24,379
again as Solicitor General and then was
670
00:28:21,769 --> 00:28:26,509
shunted off to a judicial position he
671
00:28:24,379 --> 00:28:29,330
became the chief judge of the divorce
672
00:28:26,509 --> 00:28:33,110
court in London but he played a very
673
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:35,210
important role in a very very very very
674
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:37,669
important divorce case a few years later
675
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:40,580
he signed the side of the final divorce
676
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:43,070
decree allowing Wallis Simpson to marry
677
00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:45,639
the recently abdicated Edward the eighth
678
00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:49,340
okay let's talk about the second trial
679
00:28:45,639 --> 00:28:51,049
this was convened in 1930 the British
680
00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:53,330
appointed three judges under the
681
00:28:51,049 --> 00:28:54,940
auspices of the League of Nations to
682
00:28:53,330 --> 00:28:57,820
conduct again.he
683
00:28:54,940 --> 00:29:00,130
trial in Jerusalem with witnesses
684
00:28:57,820 --> 00:29:02,350
testifying under oath cross-examination
685
00:29:00,130 --> 00:29:04,570
outside lawyers here you see the chair
686
00:29:02,350 --> 00:29:06,760
of the Commission Elio Lofgren from
687
00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:09,520
Sweden former justice minister
688
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,620
this is Monsieur bard from Switzerland
689
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,220
and this is a hairband campin from
690
00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:13,930
Holland
691
00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:16,570
three judges conducted a month-long
692
00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:19,000
trial this time veidt's minh did not
693
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:21,610
send a British lawyer he hired dr.
694
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,160
Mordechai le OSH the most prominent
695
00:29:21,610 --> 00:29:26,430
Jewish lawyer in Palestine the head of
696
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,740
the Palestinian Jewish Bar Association
697
00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:32,260
Elias faced off again against own eBay
698
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:34,690
abdul hadi the prominent palestinian
699
00:29:32,260 --> 00:29:37,690
arab lawyer on ebay in his opening
700
00:29:34,690 --> 00:29:40,990
statement argued that the Jews had no
701
00:29:37,690 --> 00:29:43,330
rights whatsoever to pray or do anything
702
00:29:40,990 --> 00:29:46,390
else at the western wall other than make
703
00:29:43,330 --> 00:29:48,220
be visit a touristic visit to the same
704
00:29:46,390 --> 00:29:49,590
extent as other tourists visiting
705
00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:52,750
Jerusalem
706
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:54,730
Elias presented evidence that the Jews
707
00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:56,200
had been praying at the wall for
708
00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:59,950
centuries that the Jews had established
709
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:02,020
a custom and a right to pray in easement
710
00:29:59,950 --> 00:30:04,120
if you will Elia showed the photo I
711
00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:06,070
showed you earlier where a portion of
712
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,860
the pavement was in disrepair called
713
00:30:06,070 --> 00:30:10,840
witnesses to show that the Jews funded
714
00:30:08,860 --> 00:30:13,390
the repair of the pavement and in his
715
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,640
closing argument very interestingly Elie
716
00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:18,370
OSH said I have made our position
717
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,410
perfectly clear I've stated that the
718
00:30:18,370 --> 00:30:23,350
Jews have not come before the Commission
719
00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:25,840
to claim any right of ownership to the
720
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:28,030
wall itself I have underlined - time and
721
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,770
again that the sacredness of the wall
722
00:30:28,030 --> 00:30:32,110
the very reverence with which we
723
00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:34,660
pronounce its name the sanctity with
724
00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:38,050
which we treat it prevent us from using
725
00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:41,530
the term ownership Elly OSH clearly
726
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:44,020
trying to persuade the judges not to
727
00:30:41,530 --> 00:30:46,840
render a verdict of ownership for the
728
00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:49,900
Muslims well Ellie Ashe didn't succeed
729
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,450
but the Commission issued a split
730
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:54,520
verdict finding that the Muslims owned
731
00:30:52,450 --> 00:30:56,860
both the wall and that narrow strip of
732
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,410
pavement but also finding that the wall
733
00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:01,390
was sacred to the Jews as well as the
734
00:30:59,410 --> 00:31:04,000
Muslims and that the pavement was not
735
00:31:01,390 --> 00:31:06,340
sacred to the Muslims implying that the
736
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,659
Muslims could not bar the Jews from
737
00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:12,769
coming to the pavement - in
738
00:31:08,659 --> 00:31:15,529
devotional practices at the wall but the
739
00:31:12,769 --> 00:31:17,690
judge is also found consistent with past
740
00:31:15,529 --> 00:31:19,609
practice under Turkish rule the Jews
741
00:31:17,690 --> 00:31:23,330
could not bring benches chairs or a
742
00:31:19,609 --> 00:31:27,200
screen they could only bring the Torah
743
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:29,899
on special Shabbat services but not on
744
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,210
regular a Shabbat aute they could bring
745
00:31:29,899 --> 00:31:34,099
prayer books but not the Torah and the
746
00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:36,679
judges ruled that the Jews were not
747
00:31:34,099 --> 00:31:39,830
allowed to blow the shofar at any time
748
00:31:36,679 --> 00:31:42,710
at the wall including Rosh Hashanah and
749
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:44,960
Yom Kippur so that was the second trial
750
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:47,419
the third trial was the so called
751
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,190
Palestine Royal Commission or the peel
752
00:31:47,419 --> 00:31:51,649
Commission here you see Lord peel and
753
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:55,220
the other commissioners sent by the King
754
00:31:51,649 --> 00:31:58,070
to Jerusalem again to conduct a lengthy
755
00:31:55,220 --> 00:32:00,019
trial outside lawyers weren't allowed to
756
00:31:58,070 --> 00:32:02,389
cross-examine witnesses but the
757
00:32:00,019 --> 00:32:04,070
commissioners themselves conducted very
758
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:06,200
very lengthy cross examinations of
759
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:09,080
witnesses and their terms of reference
760
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:12,139
required them to really conduct a very
761
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,820
searching inquiry as to whether or not
762
00:32:12,139 --> 00:32:16,039
Britain was complying with its
763
00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:18,499
obligations under the mandate and to
764
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:21,919
look at the grievances of both the
765
00:32:18,499 --> 00:32:25,820
Palestinian Arabs as well as the local
766
00:32:21,919 --> 00:32:29,629
Jews Ione Bay and the mufti who had
767
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:31,249
begun in the first trial creating the
768
00:32:29,629 --> 00:32:33,830
Palestinian narrative about injustice
769
00:32:31,249 --> 00:32:36,799
the Palestinian narrative of grievance
770
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:38,509
which we have continued to hear to this
771
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:40,909
very day in which the Palestinian
772
00:32:38,509 --> 00:32:41,779
lawyers have so effectively argued to
773
00:32:40,909 --> 00:32:44,299
this very day
774
00:32:41,779 --> 00:32:46,970
that continued in this trial as both
775
00:32:44,299 --> 00:32:50,149
Ione Bay and the mufti testified his
776
00:32:46,970 --> 00:32:51,739
witnesses but most of the testimony more
777
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:54,320
than half the testimony the Commission
778
00:32:51,739 --> 00:32:56,809
heard was taken secretly a Winston
779
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,029
Churchill testified in secret the most
780
00:32:56,809 --> 00:33:01,729
important witness who testified secretly
781
00:32:59,029 --> 00:33:04,759
was vice Minh himself Weitzman did not
782
00:33:01,729 --> 00:33:07,700
testify in the first two trials but he
783
00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:10,129
came to Jerusalem and testified multiple
784
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:12,049
times before the peel Commission here
785
00:33:10,129 --> 00:33:16,639
you seeing you see him arriving on a
786
00:33:12,049 --> 00:33:18,859
cold January morning January 8 1937 many
787
00:33:16,639 --> 00:33:21,109
of you will recognize where this is King
788
00:33:18,859 --> 00:33:22,290
David hotel on one side the YMCA
789
00:33:21,109 --> 00:33:25,530
building on the other
790
00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:29,310
and it was this moment during bites
791
00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:31,890
Ben's secret testimony before the peel
792
00:33:29,310 --> 00:33:34,980
Commission that the idea of the
793
00:33:31,890 --> 00:33:36,780
two-state solution was born one of the
794
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:39,710
commissioners professor Copeland a
795
00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:42,420
professor from Oxford kind of sprung on
796
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:45,510
Weitzman the following question in which
797
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:48,600
he says Copeland says wouldn't it be a
798
00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:51,090
fair and produce a final and peaceful
799
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,390
settlement to terminate the mandate and
800
00:33:51,090 --> 00:33:57,150
split Palestine into two halves
801
00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:59,490
this was the origination of the
802
00:33:57,150 --> 00:34:02,040
two-state solution in this very moment
803
00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:04,080
veidt's Minh confided later in Albert
804
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,410
Einstein that he was completely stunned
805
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:10,320
by the question and note vitamines
806
00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:13,320
answer he doesn't say yes he doesn't say
807
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,810
no he very carefully says permit me not
808
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,300
to give a definite answer now let me
809
00:34:15,810 --> 00:34:20,280
think of it or think about it and when
810
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,740
bites been confided in Albert Einstein a
811
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,380
few months later in a letter to to
812
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:27,720
Einstein Weitzman said the more I think
813
00:34:25,380 --> 00:34:30,390
about it the more I liked the idea in
814
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:33,360
fact I was thrilled to be there at the
815
00:34:30,390 --> 00:34:35,960
creation of the idea eventually the peel
816
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:39,120
Commission in 1937 issued its report
817
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,730
recommending a two-state solution the
818
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,770
green area here for the Jews the orange
819
00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:45,990
for the Palestinian Arabs Britain
820
00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:48,060
retaining a corridor a land corridor
821
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:50,340
connecting the port of Jaffa to
822
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:52,440
Jerusalem and Bethlehem and you see here
823
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:55,020
the map on the right of the modern-day
824
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:58,470
borders of Israel and the Palestinian
825
00:34:55,020 --> 00:35:00,090
areas of Gaza the peel Commission also
826
00:34:58,470 --> 00:35:01,950
addressed in his final report the
827
00:35:00,090 --> 00:35:04,200
controversy about the McMahon Hussein
828
00:35:01,950 --> 00:35:06,810
correspondence finding that it was
829
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,360
unfortunate that McMahon was not able to
830
00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:11,760
write his letter that October 24 1915
831
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,100
letter more clearly McMahon though is
832
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,310
still alive and a couple of weeks after
833
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:19,110
the peel Commission issued its report
834
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:22,560
McMahon came out publicly for the very
835
00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:24,900
first time since 1915 in a letter that
836
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,870
he sent to The Times of London in which
837
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:30,570
he said that it was his duty to say
838
00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:32,940
right now definitely and emphatically
839
00:35:30,570 --> 00:35:35,859
that in giving his pledge to King
840
00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:39,609
Hussein in 1915 it was not intended
841
00:35:35,859 --> 00:35:41,769
me to include Palestine in the area for
842
00:35:39,609 --> 00:35:43,839
Arab independence and that he had every
843
00:35:41,769 --> 00:35:45,789
reason to believe that King Hussein
844
00:35:43,839 --> 00:35:48,670
understood the Sharif Hussein understood
845
00:35:45,789 --> 00:35:50,440
that Palestine was not included in the
846
00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:52,569
pledge the one would think that this
847
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,309
would have been the end of the story but
848
00:35:52,569 --> 00:35:56,799
the Palestinian Arab lawyers very
849
00:35:54,309 --> 00:35:59,529
effectively argued and continued to
850
00:35:56,799 --> 00:36:01,630
argue with great effect that the intent
851
00:35:59,529 --> 00:36:03,190
of the party is not relevant in
852
00:36:01,630 --> 00:36:06,309
construing the meaning of an ambiguous
853
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:08,230
document and then in fact ambiguity
854
00:36:06,309 --> 00:36:11,920
should be construed against the drafter
855
00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:14,170
namely ambassador McMahon okay well let
856
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,619
me wrap up by describing three
857
00:36:14,170 --> 00:36:20,140
settlement proposals that occurred very
858
00:36:17,619 --> 00:36:22,779
quickly on the heels of the August 24
859
00:36:20,140 --> 00:36:24,099
abroad massacre no discussion of legal
860
00:36:22,779 --> 00:36:26,170
issues would be complete without
861
00:36:24,099 --> 00:36:28,690
discussing attempts by the parties to
862
00:36:26,170 --> 00:36:31,839
arrive at a settlement and amazingly
863
00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:35,739
within this three day period August 26
864
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:38,499
to 29 1929 we had three separate
865
00:36:35,739 --> 00:36:40,630
settlement proposals have floated by the
866
00:36:38,499 --> 00:36:44,019
British government the first one August
867
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:45,940
26 the Behrend Felix dim NSA from
868
00:36:44,019 --> 00:36:48,910
Alexandria Egypt a very prominent
869
00:36:45,940 --> 00:36:50,739
Egyptian Jew a met with an official at
870
00:36:48,910 --> 00:36:53,739
the British Embassy in Paris proposing
871
00:36:50,739 --> 00:36:55,989
that the Jews by that area the Mogra be
872
00:36:53,739 --> 00:36:57,789
quarter in front of the wall three days
873
00:36:55,989 --> 00:37:00,190
later Pincus Ruttenberg the most
874
00:36:57,789 --> 00:37:01,779
prominent Palestinian Jewish businessman
875
00:37:00,190 --> 00:37:03,759
chairman of the Palestine Electric
876
00:37:01,779 --> 00:37:05,920
Company proposed to the British
877
00:37:03,759 --> 00:37:08,049
government that Britain expropriate the
878
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,089
Mogra be quarter and then sell it to the
879
00:37:08,049 --> 00:37:12,279
Jews so sort of a two-step transaction
880
00:37:10,089 --> 00:37:15,249
versus the one step proposed by minus a
881
00:37:12,279 --> 00:37:18,579
and then most amazingly never ever
882
00:37:15,249 --> 00:37:22,539
before revealed was a proposal by Prince
883
00:37:18,579 --> 00:37:25,210
Mohammed Ali Pasha of Egypt to sell the
884
00:37:22,539 --> 00:37:27,999
wall to the Jews to sell it for a
885
00:37:25,210 --> 00:37:29,289
hundred thousand British pounds that's
886
00:37:27,999 --> 00:37:31,089
never happened before
887
00:37:29,289 --> 00:37:33,880
and it's never happened since so let's
888
00:37:31,089 --> 00:37:36,309
talk about all three very quickly this
889
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,039
is a letter from the British Embassy in
890
00:37:36,309 --> 00:37:41,440
Paris to the Foreign Office in London
891
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:44,230
reporting on the meeting with the Baron
892
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,970
Felix Dumanis a from the Israeli is
893
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:48,579
Israelite community in Alexandria
894
00:37:45,970 --> 00:37:49,670
proposing the purchase of the Mogra
895
00:37:48,579 --> 00:37:52,520
quarter
896
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:55,059
this is a actual plan that Pinkins
897
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,559
Ruttenberg presented to Lord reading
898
00:37:55,059 --> 00:38:00,079
Rufus Isaacs a very very prominent
899
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:03,740
British Jew for the expropriation of the
900
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:05,930
Mugabe quarter and Lord reading endorsed
901
00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:07,280
the proposal and sent a cover letter to
902
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:09,609
the Prime Minister the next day on
903
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,010
August 30th endorsing the expropriation
904
00:38:09,609 --> 00:38:16,250
proposal and now let me come to Prince
905
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:18,799
Mohammed Ali Pasha in 1929
906
00:38:16,250 --> 00:38:21,109
Mohammed Ali Pasha felt that he was
907
00:38:18,799 --> 00:38:23,599
going to become the king of Egypt he was
908
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:25,520
the uncle of the future King Farouk and
909
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:27,890
ended up becoming the chief Regent to
910
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,869
the future King Farouk Ali Pasha
911
00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:33,079
described as a very urbane very
912
00:38:29,869 --> 00:38:35,329
sophisticated person had built the Monty
913
00:38:33,079 --> 00:38:38,809
Hall palace on Rhoda Island in the Nile
914
00:38:35,329 --> 00:38:42,460
River in Cairo and after the Kuran
915
00:38:38,809 --> 00:38:44,990
massacre of five days later on August 29
916
00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:48,079
Mohammed Ali Pasha walked into the
917
00:38:44,990 --> 00:38:49,970
British Embassy in Istanbul presented
918
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:53,359
his calling card to the British
919
00:38:49,970 --> 00:38:56,599
ambassador Sir George clerk and gave
920
00:38:53,359 --> 00:38:58,369
clerk a letter addressed to Chancellor
921
00:38:56,599 --> 00:39:01,190
the High Commissioner in Jerusalem and
922
00:38:58,369 --> 00:39:03,440
asked clerk to forward the letter to the
923
00:39:01,190 --> 00:39:05,270
High Commissioner in Jerusalem the
924
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,040
letter proposing that instead of
925
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:09,349
fighting or dealing unjustly with each
926
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,690
other it would be infinitely better to
927
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:14,240
come to an understanding and what would
928
00:39:11,690 --> 00:39:16,099
be that understanding let the Jews by
929
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:19,099
the wall for a hundred thousand pounds
930
00:39:16,099 --> 00:39:20,210
and I feel sure that this would settle
931
00:39:19,099 --> 00:39:23,210
the difference
932
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:25,880
well clerk the ambassador in Istanbul
933
00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:28,849
did not send Mohammed Ali Pasha's letter
934
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,650
to his colleague in Jerusalem instead he
935
00:39:28,849 --> 00:39:32,960
sent it directly to the Foreign Minister
936
00:39:30,650 --> 00:39:35,180
Arthur Henderson in London a few days
937
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,270
later saying that he's received a visit
938
00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:40,430
from Prince Mohammed Ali Pasha and clerk
939
00:39:38,270 --> 00:39:43,400
basically saying I'm not so sure that
940
00:39:40,430 --> 00:39:45,589
this idea of the Jews buying the wall
941
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,839
would be acceptable to the Muslims in
942
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:50,750
Jerusalem even for his fancy a price as
943
00:39:47,839 --> 00:39:52,309
a hundred thousand pounds the letter was
944
00:39:50,750 --> 00:39:54,380
received in London at the Foreign Office
945
00:39:52,309 --> 00:39:56,839
and filed in this file right here that
946
00:39:54,380 --> 00:39:59,750
I'm showing you an official in the
947
00:39:56,839 --> 00:40:02,089
foreign office named WC Knight wrote
948
00:39:59,750 --> 00:40:03,089
kind of a sarcastic minute here on the
949
00:40:02,089 --> 00:40:05,069
file he said
950
00:40:03,089 --> 00:40:07,619
it would appear from the last paragraph
951
00:40:05,069 --> 00:40:09,690
of the princes letter that while the
952
00:40:07,619 --> 00:40:11,819
Jerusalem Arabs would scorn to sell
953
00:40:09,690 --> 00:40:13,739
their honored sheep they would probably
954
00:40:11,819 --> 00:40:16,499
be prepared to do so for a hundred
955
00:40:13,739 --> 00:40:19,469
thousand pounds well it didn't happen
956
00:40:16,499 --> 00:40:21,239
the letter was simply filed away here
957
00:40:19,469 --> 00:40:25,229
you see the entry in the Foreign Office
958
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:27,900
index for 1929 suggested sale of wall to
959
00:40:25,229 --> 00:40:31,140
Jews by Muslims proposal of Prince
960
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:33,509
Mohammed Ali Pasha no one ever found out
961
00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:36,359
about this there is no evidence that
962
00:40:33,509 --> 00:40:39,630
anyone ever knew about this the letter
963
00:40:36,359 --> 00:40:42,839
from Mohammed Ali Pasha lay buried in
964
00:40:39,630 --> 00:40:45,390
the files of the British archives for
965
00:40:42,839 --> 00:40:47,700
the next 90 years I found it a couple of
966
00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:50,450
years ago I published a long article
967
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:53,670
about it a few weeks ago and it's also
968
00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:56,180
in my book I'm very proud that I found
969
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:58,769
it because this shows that although
970
00:40:56,180 --> 00:41:00,269
Muhammad Ali Pasha did not really have
971
00:40:58,769 --> 00:41:02,640
standing he didn't have the legal
972
00:41:00,269 --> 00:41:05,190
authority to sell the wall to the Jews
973
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,930
he was thinking creatively about a
974
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:10,079
solution just as Bites Minh thought
975
00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:12,450
creatively during his testimony to the
976
00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:16,079
Royal Commission about a creative way to
977
00:41:12,450 --> 00:41:18,420
solve the problem and so with that this
978
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:20,910
is the cover of my book and I will thank
979
00:41:18,420 --> 00:41:23,369
you all so very very much for attending
980
00:41:20,910 --> 00:41:26,489
today I'd love to hear your questions
981
00:41:23,369 --> 00:41:28,200
I'll stop the share here and turn it
982
00:41:26,489 --> 00:41:30,960
back to Professor Spiegel thank you all
983
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,749
again very very much wow what a
984
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,549
fascinating discussion and we've got
985
00:41:33,749 --> 00:41:40,489
some very interesting questions already
986
00:41:35,549 --> 00:41:43,680
arrived and in case you do not remember
987
00:41:40,489 --> 00:41:45,509
in our audience or joined us late here's
988
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,589
how to send a question for our speaker
989
00:41:45,509 --> 00:41:53,579
click on the Q&A button if you're with
990
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:57,930
us via Zoom click on the Q&A button if
991
00:41:53,579 --> 00:41:59,999
you're with us the Zoom unfortunately if
992
00:41:57,930 --> 00:42:02,819
you're watching us through YouTube the
993
00:41:59,999 --> 00:42:04,859
comments are disabled and let me just
994
00:42:02,819 --> 00:42:06,660
say something haven't having looked at a
995
00:42:04,859 --> 00:42:06,979
couple of questions that have come in so
996
00:42:06,660 --> 00:42:13,170
far
997
00:42:06,979 --> 00:42:15,710
I would just like to mention that we're
998
00:42:13,170 --> 00:42:18,840
going to take first the questions that
999
00:42:15,710 --> 00:42:21,900
exactly to what professors or Christine
1000
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:27,180
has been discussing now several of you
1001
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:29,400
want to give it a spin to the present
1002
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:32,550
day and I understand that and I will try
1003
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,940
to adjust your question so that also
1004
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:37,950
relates to our presentation where
1005
00:42:35,940 --> 00:42:43,440
appropriate but a very interesting
1006
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:50,900
question that we have and which we will
1007
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:50,900
take immediately is one that deals with
1008
00:42:51,710 --> 00:42:59,070
that deals with Jerusalem itself and
1009
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:05,520
particularly with with the wall so let
1010
00:42:59,070 --> 00:43:08,670
me read it it is is somewhat lengthy but
1011
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:14,280
I think it's worth it is from Yvonne
1012
00:43:08,670 --> 00:43:18,210
Sherrer of Israel and it goes like this
1013
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:20,730
you have used both Western Wall and
1014
00:43:18,210 --> 00:43:24,060
alternately Wailing Wall in describing
1015
00:43:20,730 --> 00:43:26,490
the Jewish holy site in these days I'm
1016
00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:29,760
adding that much later stages Israel's
1017
00:43:26,490 --> 00:43:32,100
Palestinian negotiations in 2002 of the
1018
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,930
one as well as in the Clinton parameters
1019
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:36,390
there was a clear distinction between
1020
00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:42,330
the two while western well-meant the
1021
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:44,790
entirety of the remaining wall for and
1022
00:43:42,330 --> 00:43:47,910
atm above and below surface the Wailing
1023
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:50,880
Wall men just the visible part above
1024
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:52,560
ground minus 50 which one is legally
1025
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,800
correct in substance and wording
1026
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:59,090
according to your research Thank You
1027
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:02,280
Gila fantastic question so back in the
1028
00:43:59,090 --> 00:44:04,170
1920s and 1930s you may have noticed
1029
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,540
that the word was used interchangeably
1030
00:44:04,170 --> 00:44:07,890
the British used the word Western or
1031
00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:10,670
Wailing they used them sort of
1032
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:14,580
synonymously and interchangeably the
1033
00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:15,960
plan that Ruttenberg submitted to Lord
1034
00:44:14,580 --> 00:44:18,810
reading I showed you that very quickly
1035
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:21,750
used the word whaling so the distinction
1036
00:44:18,810 --> 00:44:24,930
that has arisen more recently which I
1037
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:26,130
will be describing at length in my final
1038
00:44:24,930 --> 00:44:28,290
book of the series which will deal
1039
00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:28,980
solely with the legal status of
1040
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,420
Jerusalem
1041
00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:32,339
the distinction that you make well
1042
00:44:30,420 --> 00:44:35,550
extraordinarily important was not made
1043
00:44:32,339 --> 00:44:37,950
in the days of the mandate thank you for
1044
00:44:35,550 --> 00:44:40,010
the question thank you I thank all of
1045
00:44:37,950 --> 00:44:43,440
you for so many questions coming in I
1046
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:45,450
the next one is to me Harriet gerak I
1047
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,220
hope I've got that pronunciation white
1048
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:49,220
why why were there three investigations
1049
00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:54,150
and why wasn't the original decision
1050
00:44:49,220 --> 00:44:56,579
accepted um fantastic question the three
1051
00:44:54,150 --> 00:45:00,150
trials reflect the fact that the British
1052
00:44:56,579 --> 00:45:02,579
themselves repeatedly used the law
1053
00:45:00,150 --> 00:45:06,060
relied on the law relied on the law and
1054
00:45:02,579 --> 00:45:07,800
legal process as a way to carry out what
1055
00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:11,940
they viewed as their obligations as the
1056
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:16,589
mandatory power in Palestine why was the
1057
00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:18,750
first verdict not accepted well clearly
1058
00:45:16,589 --> 00:45:20,579
the Jews were very very unhappy with the
1059
00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:22,530
verdict from the Shoah Commission the
1060
00:45:20,579 --> 00:45:25,320
Palestinian Arabs were were gleeful
1061
00:45:22,530 --> 00:45:29,609
about it and in many ways as I said
1062
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:32,010
before that that trial the subtext of
1063
00:45:29,609 --> 00:45:34,920
that trial was much more about
1064
00:45:32,010 --> 00:45:39,060
Palestinian Arab nationalism versus I
1065
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:40,890
anism than it was a judicial inquiry
1066
00:45:39,060 --> 00:45:44,310
into who was responsible for the riots
1067
00:45:40,890 --> 00:45:47,609
and following that trial the British
1068
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:49,770
sent an expert John Hope Simpson to
1069
00:45:47,609 --> 00:45:52,170
Palestine to investigate in greater
1070
00:45:49,770 --> 00:45:54,480
detail the grievances of the Arabs
1071
00:45:52,170 --> 00:45:57,030
focusing specifically on Jewish land
1072
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,790
acquisition and Jewish emigration that
1073
00:45:57,030 --> 00:46:01,589
led to the adoption of a white paper
1074
00:45:59,790 --> 00:46:03,180
called the passed field white paper and
1075
00:46:01,589 --> 00:46:05,460
then a subsequent more or less
1076
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:08,160
retraction by Prime Minister Ramsay
1077
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:10,140
MacDonald and so the the verdict of the
1078
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:13,230
Shaw Commission really set in motion a
1079
00:46:10,140 --> 00:46:17,250
long chain of events during the 1930s
1080
00:46:13,230 --> 00:46:19,890
that pitted Palestinian Arab nationalism
1081
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:21,750
against Zionism leading to the Arab
1082
00:46:19,890 --> 00:46:23,730
revolt that began in 1936
1083
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:25,980
and then the peel Commission and the
1084
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:29,190
partition plan that they proposed great
1085
00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:31,050
question thank you we're getting many
1086
00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:34,109
questions and comments let me read a
1087
00:46:31,050 --> 00:46:37,440
couple of comments one very sad from
1088
00:46:34,109 --> 00:46:39,599
Florence filmin who thanks you
1089
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,339
professor superstein for explaining
1090
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,880
those Jerusalem ayahs to us
1091
00:46:41,339 --> 00:46:46,180
she says her father
1092
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:49,890
told told her that his uncle was one of
1093
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:55,540
those killed in the riot so this comes
1094
00:46:49,890 --> 00:46:59,590
comes home in some ways another comment
1095
00:46:55,540 --> 00:47:02,620
and I don't have a name who and this
1096
00:46:59,590 --> 00:47:04,630
individual says I'm fascinated as an
1097
00:47:02,620 --> 00:47:09,100
Irishman to see British duplicity in
1098
00:47:04,630 --> 00:47:10,780
this whole affair and this analogy to
1099
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:13,840
their actions in Northern Ireland is
1100
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:16,030
this in the same period is strike is
1101
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,820
striking do you have any comment on math
1102
00:47:16,030 --> 00:47:20,650
him well without really reference to the
1103
00:47:18,820 --> 00:47:24,700
Irish situation I would just say that it
1104
00:47:20,650 --> 00:47:26,560
is incredibly interesting when pouring
1105
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:29,200
through the files of the Colonial Office
1106
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:32,620
in the foreigner and office to see the
1107
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:34,780
common thread of Britain really acting
1108
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:37,870
in a very mucky million way to pursue
1109
00:47:34,780 --> 00:47:40,480
its own interests we see it in the 1920s
1110
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:44,740
and 30s one thing I didn't mention was
1111
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:47,320
that between the October 24 1915 McMahon
1112
00:47:44,740 --> 00:47:50,950
letter to Hussein and the November 2nd
1113
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,900
1917 letter from Lord Balfour to Lord
1114
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:55,240
Rothschild there was of course the
1115
00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:57,550
sykes-picot agreement in 1916 a secret
1116
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:59,410
agreement between Britain and France to
1117
00:47:57,550 --> 00:48:01,780
carb up spheres of influence in the
1118
00:47:59,410 --> 00:48:04,060
Middle East after the war and we see it
1119
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:07,570
going forward into the late 1930s when
1120
00:48:04,060 --> 00:48:10,020
Britain is very very focused on the
1121
00:48:07,570 --> 00:48:14,170
threat from Nazi Germany trying to
1122
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:16,330
convince the Arabs in the region to not
1123
00:48:14,170 --> 00:48:18,370
join forces with the Nazis but to join
1124
00:48:16,330 --> 00:48:19,540
instead with the with the British
1125
00:48:18,370 --> 00:48:22,090
government I'll write about this
1126
00:48:19,540 --> 00:48:23,980
extensively in my next book and at the
1127
00:48:22,090 --> 00:48:26,410
same time don't forget that Britain
1128
00:48:23,980 --> 00:48:29,860
still is the colonial power throughout
1129
00:48:26,410 --> 00:48:32,470
this period 1920s 30s and early 40s in
1130
00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:34,930
India and the Muslim population in India
1131
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:36,550
is greater than the entire Muslim
1132
00:48:34,930 --> 00:48:39,070
population in the Arab world at that
1133
00:48:36,550 --> 00:48:41,890
time and so Britain always has sort of
1134
00:48:39,070 --> 00:48:43,750
one eye on the situation in India as
1135
00:48:41,890 --> 00:48:45,130
it's navigating through the conflict
1136
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:46,770
between the Arabs and the Jews and
1137
00:48:45,130 --> 00:48:49,540
Palestine
1138
00:48:46,770 --> 00:48:51,010
here's Scott Abramson the fellow there's
1139
00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:54,550
only one Center for Israel Studies
1140
00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:56,500
currently hidden since God knows a lot
1141
00:48:54,550 --> 00:48:58,660
about this be prepared
1142
00:48:56,500 --> 00:49:00,970
it has been argued that before Henry
1143
00:48:58,660 --> 00:49:03,270
Henry McMahon wrote the most
1144
00:49:00,970 --> 00:49:06,160
controversial letter in his
1145
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:07,930
correspondence with Sharif Hussein the
1146
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,450
letter that excludes part of the LaVon
1147
00:49:07,930 --> 00:49:12,280
from the future Arab Kingdom British
1148
00:49:10,450 --> 00:49:15,070
Foreign Secretary every degre sent a
1149
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,390
telegram to macmaine advising ambiguity
1150
00:49:15,070 --> 00:49:18,850
but also allowing the Maine the
1151
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:20,920
discretion to be more specific do you
1152
00:49:18,850 --> 00:49:24,840
believe that millions famously ambiguous
1153
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:26,620
reference to portions of Syria was
1154
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,190
intentional I've never heard this before
1155
00:49:26,620 --> 00:49:32,740
it's quite interesting yeah so this has
1156
00:49:30,190 --> 00:49:34,450
been written about fairly extensively le
1157
00:49:32,740 --> 00:49:36,040
Kaduri wrote a book about this and there
1158
00:49:34,450 --> 00:49:38,710
have been other scholars who have
1159
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:44,650
written about this the British Foreign
1160
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:47,830
Office also in 1930 a clerk named W
1161
00:49:44,650 --> 00:49:49,690
child wrote of seventy-five page memo
1162
00:49:47,830 --> 00:49:52,540
taking a very very deep dive into this
1163
00:49:49,690 --> 00:49:53,980
and well I don't want to take up too
1164
00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:57,130
much time answering this and Scott maybe
1165
00:49:53,980 --> 00:49:58,540
you and I can have lunch when we think
1166
00:49:57,130 --> 00:50:01,480
get back to normal and can sit down
1167
00:49:58,540 --> 00:50:03,820
together essentially the instructions to
1168
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,190
McMahon were to do everything possible
1169
00:50:03,820 --> 00:50:09,010
to bring a hussein over to the British
1170
00:50:06,190 --> 00:50:12,700
side to convince him to rise up against
1171
00:50:09,010 --> 00:50:15,760
the Turks number one and number two and
1172
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:18,340
this is what Kaduri argues that what
1173
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,850
McMann was supposed to have said is that
1174
00:50:18,340 --> 00:50:26,110
when you do get your independence those
1175
00:50:21,850 --> 00:50:29,220
four towns Aleppo Homs Hama and Damascus
1176
00:50:26,110 --> 00:50:32,440
will be a part of the future Arab state
1177
00:50:29,220 --> 00:50:34,390
not to use this ambiguous language that
1178
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,290
McMahon used that led to the arguments
1179
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:37,710
for the next hundred and five years
1180
00:50:35,290 --> 00:50:40,450
about whether Palestine was or was not
1181
00:50:37,710 --> 00:50:42,580
included one more very important piece
1182
00:50:40,450 --> 00:50:44,530
of evidence was that Lord Grey who you
1183
00:50:42,580 --> 00:50:48,640
mentioned made a speech in the House of
1184
00:50:44,530 --> 00:50:52,090
Lords in 1923 more or less taking the
1185
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,070
side of the the Faisal and Abdullah the
1186
00:50:52,090 --> 00:50:56,320
Palestinian Arabs who was I mentioned by
1187
00:50:54,070 --> 00:50:59,890
that time had changed their position and
1188
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:01,980
we're very adamant that the Balfour
1189
00:50:59,890 --> 00:51:04,030
Declaration should be struck down and
1190
00:51:01,980 --> 00:51:06,310
after his speech in the House of Lords
1191
00:51:04,030 --> 00:51:07,990
Herbert Samuel then the High
1192
00:51:06,310 --> 00:51:10,090
Commissioner very interesting figure
1193
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:12,430
himself Jewish but
1194
00:51:10,090 --> 00:51:14,320
inspected by the Jews of being not
1195
00:51:12,430 --> 00:51:15,910
sympathetic with Zionism suspected by
1196
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:19,150
the Arabs of being a secret Zionist
1197
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:21,760
agent Herbert Samuel wrote to General
1198
00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:24,940
Clayton who was on the staff of McMahon
1199
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,440
in Cairo in 1915 and said to Clayton I
1200
00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:28,570
seem to remember that you were the one
1201
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,850
that drafted those letters what do you
1202
00:51:28,570 --> 00:51:33,400
think did McMahon intend to include or
1203
00:51:30,850 --> 00:51:36,040
exclude Palestine Clayton wrote a memo
1204
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,930
to Samuel saying yeah I did draft the
1205
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,480
letters and yeah there was no intention
1206
00:51:37,930 --> 00:51:44,590
whatsoever to promise Palestine to the
1207
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:47,410
Arabs and ultimately Samuel begged the
1208
00:51:44,590 --> 00:51:49,900
Royal Commission to publish that memo
1209
00:51:47,410 --> 00:51:52,900
the Clayton memo of 1923 in its report
1210
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:54,430
the Royal Commission didn't and so a
1211
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:56,050
couple of weeks after the world
1212
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:58,650
Commission issued its report
1213
00:51:56,050 --> 00:52:02,290
Herbert Samuel who by then was a lord a
1214
00:51:58,650 --> 00:52:05,740
by count rose in the House of Lords and
1215
00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:08,260
read the Clayton memo verbatim and he
1216
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:10,600
also read that letter of December 1919
1217
00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:16,120
fromthe I saw verbatim on the floor of
1218
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:18,010
the House of Lords interesting I I'm not
1219
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,590
sure the following is possible but Karin
1220
00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:22,390
freed asks can mr. superstein put the
1221
00:52:20,590 --> 00:52:25,630
chart of the legal conflicts on the
1222
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:28,630
screen again I assume that we mean the
1223
00:52:25,630 --> 00:52:29,760
three trials and I will be happy to do
1224
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:35,250
that
1225
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:44,560
okay um as long as we can still see you
1226
00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:46,060
um sorry I'm just coming back to it it's
1227
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,690
at the beginning more or less I've got
1228
00:52:46,060 --> 00:52:48,690
there momentarily
1229
00:52:52,510 --> 00:53:04,900
almost there and here we go right here
1230
00:52:59,830 --> 00:53:07,570
okay I think that's the chart yes we
1231
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:10,750
can't keep it up too long in case we
1232
00:53:07,570 --> 00:53:15,010
need to see you but we hope this works
1233
00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:20,230
meanwhile uh let me read a note from dr.
1234
00:53:15,010 --> 00:53:24,610
Mohammed doula Maya from Oman and he
1235
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:26,940
says he would like to thank you Steve
1236
00:53:24,610 --> 00:53:32,410
zipper teen for his wonderful
1237
00:53:26,940 --> 00:53:35,800
presentation uh I have another note from
1238
00:53:32,410 --> 00:53:38,890
Zayn kosis who says I am a Jordanian
1239
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,960
Canadian and since Palestinians form
1240
00:53:38,890 --> 00:53:43,540
almost half of my community I am
1241
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:45,550
interested in learning the history the
1242
00:53:43,540 --> 00:53:49,180
Balfour Declaration states nothing shall
1243
00:53:45,550 --> 00:53:50,650
be done which may cause prejudice which
1244
00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:52,990
may cause prejudice the civil and
1245
00:53:50,650 --> 00:53:55,600
religious rights of existing non-jewish
1246
00:53:52,990 --> 00:53:57,130
communities in Palestine this is
1247
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,740
absolutely being violated by the
1248
00:53:57,130 --> 00:54:01,840
Zionists till this day how do we address
1249
00:53:59,740 --> 00:54:04,870
the issue of reimbursing stolen land and
1250
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:07,180
property of the Palestinians in order to
1251
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:10,270
correct the wrongs of the past and move
1252
00:54:07,180 --> 00:54:12,370
towards reconciliation I know it's a
1253
00:54:10,270 --> 00:54:14,680
tough question but what would life be
1254
00:54:12,370 --> 00:54:15,790
without tough questions yeah no I think
1255
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,770
it's I think it's a very fair question
1256
00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:19,870
it's an excellent question I appreciate
1257
00:54:17,770 --> 00:54:22,480
it very much and it really makes the
1258
00:54:19,870 --> 00:54:24,880
point that I tried to make the very
1259
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:29,710
beginning which is that the use of the
1260
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:32,410
law as we just heard by the Palestinians
1261
00:54:29,710 --> 00:54:34,300
and by the the Jews is not a new
1262
00:54:32,410 --> 00:54:35,740
phenomenon that just happened in the
1263
00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:37,660
last fifteen years though there are a
1264
00:54:35,740 --> 00:54:41,860
lot of scholars out there that have
1265
00:54:37,660 --> 00:54:44,710
coined the term law fair to describe the
1266
00:54:41,860 --> 00:54:47,170
recent discovery by the Palestinians of
1267
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:50,110
the law and as I tried to show you the
1268
00:54:47,170 --> 00:54:54,900
great Palestinian lawyer on e-bay Abdul
1269
00:54:50,110 --> 00:54:58,420
Hadi and the mufti they themselves
1270
00:54:54,900 --> 00:55:02,460
almost a hundred years ago began using
1271
00:54:58,420 --> 00:55:04,420
the law very very effectively and to
1272
00:55:02,460 --> 00:55:06,010
really come to the question about bail
1273
00:55:04,420 --> 00:55:08,440
for yes
1274
00:55:06,010 --> 00:55:10,720
the British government for years and
1275
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,940
years took the position that the Balfour
1276
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:16,150
Declaration imposed a so-called double
1277
00:55:12,940 --> 00:55:17,740
duty on the government to facilitate the
1278
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:20,010
creation of the Jewish National Home
1279
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:22,320
while not doing anything to prejudice
1280
00:55:20,010 --> 00:55:25,990
the rights of the existing population
1281
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:28,810
the language of the mandate also article
1282
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:31,330
six contains a similar language about
1283
00:55:28,810 --> 00:55:34,240
not prejudicing the rights and position
1284
00:55:31,330 --> 00:55:37,060
the word position was litigated at
1285
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:39,940
length in the three trials especially
1286
00:55:37,060 --> 00:55:41,800
the third trial the Royal Commission the
1287
00:55:39,940 --> 00:55:45,220
mufti and on e-bay arguing that the word
1288
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:47,800
position should mean political position
1289
00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:51,460
the Jewish witnesses arguing that the
1290
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:54,220
word position did not refer to a sort of
1291
00:55:51,460 --> 00:55:56,920
a political status but instead referred
1292
00:55:54,220 --> 00:55:58,330
more to sort of freedom of religion and
1293
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,030
those sorts of things
1294
00:55:58,330 --> 00:56:04,630
so the Israeli government if they were
1295
00:56:01,030 --> 00:56:07,109
here would argue look our Declaration of
1296
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:11,200
Independence in our various laws
1297
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:13,720
guarantee freedom of religion Muslims
1298
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:16,180
have the right to vote they have other
1299
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:17,940
freedoms in the Israeli Democratic
1300
00:56:16,180 --> 00:56:20,020
system that they might not necessarily
1301
00:56:17,940 --> 00:56:22,540
necessarily be enjoying elsewhere and
1302
00:56:20,020 --> 00:56:24,580
the Muslims and the Palestinian Arabs
1303
00:56:22,540 --> 00:56:27,250
Christians and Muslims would argue as
1304
00:56:24,580 --> 00:56:31,240
you just said that from the very very
1305
00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:33,430
beginning Britain never lived up to that
1306
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,710
dual obligation Britain never protected
1307
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:39,400
the position of the Palestinian Arabs
1308
00:56:35,710 --> 00:56:42,190
the partition proposal of Appeal
1309
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,320
Commission which gave statehood to the
1310
00:56:42,190 --> 00:56:46,420
Jews and part of Palestinian Arab land
1311
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,250
the taller the tolerance of Jewish
1312
00:56:46,420 --> 00:56:50,710
immigration the tolerance of Jewish land
1313
00:56:48,250 --> 00:56:53,410
acquisition the eviction of Arab tenant
1314
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:55,420
farmers all of that was in violation of
1315
00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:57,900
the British obligation to protect the
1316
00:56:55,420 --> 00:57:01,690
rights and position of the local
1317
00:56:57,900 --> 00:57:04,900
indigenous Palestinian Arab population I
1318
00:57:01,690 --> 00:57:06,700
don't address in my book who's right or
1319
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:08,770
who's wrong about that argument I'm much
1320
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:11,590
more interested in showing how the two
1321
00:57:08,770 --> 00:57:13,450
sides have actually used the law as a
1322
00:57:11,590 --> 00:57:16,000
weapon in the conflict without me
1323
00:57:13,450 --> 00:57:19,000
adjudicating who wins or who loses but
1324
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,870
clearly your point is well-taken and
1325
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,250
something that
1326
00:57:19,870 --> 00:57:23,290
really strikes to the very core of the
1327
00:57:21,250 --> 00:57:23,800
conflict today thank you so much for the
1328
00:57:23,290 --> 00:57:26,830
question
1329
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,450
thank you well I've just been looking
1330
00:57:26,830 --> 00:57:31,000
ahead and we have an enormous number of
1331
00:57:28,450 --> 00:57:32,560
questions coming in I am favoring to
1332
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:36,150
some extent those that deal directly
1333
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:39,910
with the presentation today but since
1334
00:57:36,150 --> 00:57:43,360
professor superstein ended slightly
1335
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:46,210
early very unusual for people to do that
1336
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,950
for professors to do that we do have a
1337
00:57:46,210 --> 00:57:49,750
little some extra time so I hope to pick
1338
00:57:47,950 --> 00:57:52,030
up those that try to infer something for
1339
00:57:49,750 --> 00:57:55,980
the current situation at the end but I
1340
00:57:52,030 --> 00:58:01,420
am favoring right now and we have now a
1341
00:57:55,980 --> 00:58:03,900
question that is from Alan Makovsky a
1342
00:58:01,420 --> 00:58:07,470
friend of both of ours forgot to him oh
1343
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:14,170
I'm sorry I'm reading the wrong thing
1344
00:58:07,470 --> 00:58:16,960
but did the palace alum a copy of course
1345
00:58:14,170 --> 00:58:19,600
is in Washington DC and well-known to
1346
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,430
many there did the Palestinians who
1347
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,350
testify in the 20s and 30s seem to
1348
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:25,660
acknowledge that a Jewish temple had
1349
00:58:23,350 --> 00:58:27,940
once existed on the Temple Mount or did
1350
00:58:25,660 --> 00:58:33,070
they deny it as our thought famously did
1351
00:58:27,940 --> 00:58:35,470
at Camp David in 2000 there wasn't a
1352
00:58:33,070 --> 00:58:38,680
single Palestinian and witness who
1353
00:58:35,470 --> 00:58:42,040
conceded either the existence of the of
1354
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:45,280
the Jewish temples or even the centuries
1355
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:47,590
long practice of the Jews coming to the
1356
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:50,190
wall to to pray or to more in the
1357
00:58:47,590 --> 00:58:52,960
destruction of the temples the
1358
00:58:50,190 --> 00:58:55,630
Palestinian Witnesses uniformly both in
1359
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:57,520
the Shah Commission trial as well as in
1360
00:58:55,630 --> 00:59:00,910
the Laughlin Commission the second trial
1361
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:03,250
were very consistent in their position
1362
00:59:00,910 --> 00:59:06,780
and as well equally consistent that
1363
00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:11,260
following the Muslim conquest in 638
1364
00:59:06,780 --> 00:59:14,700
that shortly after that the Muslim
1365
00:59:11,260 --> 00:59:17,350
authorities had dedicated up the wall
1366
00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:20,050
the Haram a Temple Mount
1367
00:59:17,350 --> 00:59:21,910
as well as the Mugabe Quarter had
1368
00:59:20,050 --> 00:59:25,990
dedicated all that as walk of property
1369
00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:27,490
Muslim charitable property and so from
1370
00:59:25,990 --> 00:59:30,840
their perspective as testifying
1371
00:59:27,490 --> 00:59:33,060
witnesses the the situation amounted to
1372
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,370
attempted Jewish encroach
1373
00:59:33,060 --> 00:59:39,210
walks property which to them was an
1374
00:59:35,370 --> 00:59:42,060
intolerable state of affairs thank you
1375
00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:45,150
Thank You Ellen uh and now it's my honor
1376
00:59:42,060 --> 00:59:47,100
to have a question from Charles Young
1377
00:59:45,150 --> 00:59:49,740
who was of course for many years the
1378
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:52,140
Chancellor at UCLA did the comment by
1379
00:59:49,740 --> 00:59:54,410
vitamin his correspondence with Einstein
1380
00:59:52,140 --> 00:59:57,420
ever get broader circulation and
1381
00:59:54,410 --> 00:59:59,070
consideration the Chancellor thank you
1382
00:59:57,420 --> 01:00:00,780
so much for the question and wonderful
1383
00:59:59,070 --> 01:00:04,590
to have you join me joining with us
1384
01:00:00,780 --> 01:00:05,910
today or a student when I was I was a
1385
01:00:04,590 --> 01:00:09,330
student when you were Chancellor it's
1386
01:00:05,910 --> 01:00:10,680
wonderful to have you today so the
1387
01:00:09,330 --> 01:00:14,180
letter that I mentioned is actually
1388
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:16,100
published there's a multi-volume set of
1389
01:00:14,180 --> 01:00:19,830
vitamins papers and correspondence
1390
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:21,840
published about 20 years ago and it's
1391
01:00:19,830 --> 01:00:24,120
there it's also the bytes been archives
1392
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,970
Enrico vote Israel has their entire
1393
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,770
collection of bytes been documents
1394
01:00:25,970 --> 01:00:32,220
digitized and searchable online but no
1395
01:00:28,770 --> 01:00:35,280
it really never received any attention
1396
01:00:32,220 --> 01:00:38,100
whatsoever quite surprising to me but
1397
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:39,390
receive very very little attention and I
1398
01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:43,050
must say
1399
01:00:39,390 --> 01:00:49,860
Einstein himself and I'll cover this in
1400
01:00:43,050 --> 01:00:55,730
my next book and testified in the 1940s
1401
01:00:49,860 --> 01:00:58,230
before the the post-war anglo-american
1402
01:00:55,730 --> 01:01:00,090
Joint Committee of Inquiry which was
1403
01:00:58,230 --> 01:01:02,940
also chaired by two judges one British
1404
01:01:00,090 --> 01:01:03,960
one American and in his testimony in
1405
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:06,600
Washington DC
1406
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:08,880
Weitzman was very iffy about a Jewish
1407
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:11,010
state Weitzman was not a Zionist
1408
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:14,400
sorry not bites Ben Einstein forgive me
1409
01:01:11,010 --> 01:01:16,170
Einstein was not a Zionist but despite
1410
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,890
that he invites Ben were were quite
1411
01:01:16,170 --> 01:01:23,100
close and vice Ben confided in Einstein
1412
01:01:19,890 --> 01:01:27,620
a lot sought his advice and you see
1413
01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:31,230
invites means diplomacy a lot of the the
1414
01:01:27,620 --> 01:01:32,850
care in his use of language in his
1415
01:01:31,230 --> 01:01:35,040
testimony before the peel Commission
1416
01:01:32,850 --> 01:01:36,930
great care and great caution in his use
1417
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,330
of language par the reason I showed
1418
01:01:36,930 --> 01:01:41,550
Churchill's picture was because during
1419
01:01:39,330 --> 01:01:43,980
his secret testimony Churchill was far
1420
01:01:41,550 --> 01:01:46,510
more bullish on the idea of early
1421
01:01:43,980 --> 01:01:48,760
statehood for the Jews in Palestine
1422
01:01:46,510 --> 01:01:50,440
then was Weitzman that's part of the
1423
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,410
reason went reason why bites Minh was
1424
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,790
caught so much off-guard by the question
1425
01:01:53,410 --> 01:01:59,980
from Professor Copeland about the
1426
01:01:54,790 --> 01:02:02,890
two-state solution thank you we're going
1427
01:01:59,980 --> 01:02:04,990
to go to a couple of professors now
1428
01:02:02,890 --> 01:02:06,820
professor Arthur Stein Brendon political
1429
01:02:04,990 --> 01:02:09,430
science why do the British treat a
1430
01:02:06,820 --> 01:02:10,330
political assessment as a trial in which
1431
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:11,890
non-binding
1432
01:02:10,330 --> 01:02:14,620
written political commitments are
1433
01:02:11,890 --> 01:02:17,830
treated as legal contracts to be
1434
01:02:14,620 --> 01:02:22,090
judicially assessed that's a great
1435
01:02:17,830 --> 01:02:24,400
question and in my book I say that the
1436
01:02:22,090 --> 01:02:27,700
idea of litigating our way to peace is
1437
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:29,290
probably not ever going to work and so
1438
01:02:27,700 --> 01:02:31,450
why even have these trials to begin with
1439
01:02:29,290 --> 01:02:33,880
and I think the reason comes back to my
1440
01:02:31,450 --> 01:02:39,100
point earlier that the British having
1441
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:42,370
taken legal control of Palestine under
1442
01:02:39,100 --> 01:02:44,380
the provisions of the mandate granted to
1443
01:02:42,370 --> 01:02:47,020
Britain by the League of Nations but
1444
01:02:44,380 --> 01:02:48,850
Britain took very seriously the the
1445
01:02:47,020 --> 01:02:51,130
mandate as a legal document
1446
01:02:48,850 --> 01:02:53,380
not just article 13 in the status quo
1447
01:02:51,130 --> 01:02:55,780
but article 6 I mentioned the dual
1448
01:02:53,380 --> 01:02:59,050
obligation to the Jews into the
1449
01:02:55,780 --> 01:03:01,650
Palestinian Arabs and Britain became
1450
01:02:59,050 --> 01:03:04,480
comfortable with the idea of
1451
01:03:01,650 --> 01:03:07,240
adjudicating and litigating disputes
1452
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:09,550
that arose Britain used the divisive of
1453
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:12,340
judicial commissions elsewhere through
1454
01:03:09,550 --> 01:03:15,070
the colonies it did it in India at least
1455
01:03:12,340 --> 01:03:17,740
once and this was what was a way for
1456
01:03:15,070 --> 01:03:19,960
Britain to demonstrate to its overseers
1457
01:03:17,740 --> 01:03:22,030
that the permanent mandates Commission
1458
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,070
of the League of Nations that it was
1459
01:03:22,030 --> 01:03:26,680
fulfilling its duty as mandatory power
1460
01:03:24,070 --> 01:03:29,650
to treat the provisions of the mandate
1461
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:33,550
as having the force of law one thing I
1462
01:03:29,650 --> 01:03:36,250
didn't mention was that after the Shaw
1463
01:03:33,550 --> 01:03:38,380
Commission trial the Jews who were very
1464
01:03:36,250 --> 01:03:40,900
upset with the verdict essentially filed
1465
01:03:38,380 --> 01:03:43,990
an appeal with the permanent mandates
1466
01:03:40,900 --> 01:03:45,850
Commission and the British officials
1467
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:48,550
including John Chancellor the High
1468
01:03:45,850 --> 01:03:51,400
Commissioner had to go to Geneva and be
1469
01:03:48,550 --> 01:03:53,170
subjected to very very robust and very
1470
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,360
very challenging adversarial
1471
01:03:53,170 --> 01:03:56,650
cross-examination from the members of
1472
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,720
the permanent mandate Commission and
1473
01:03:56,650 --> 01:04:02,900
what is really striking amazing
1474
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:04,220
the time period is how sympathetic the
1475
01:04:02,900 --> 01:04:05,690
League of Nations and the permanent
1476
01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:08,349
mandates Commission were to these
1477
01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:11,510
scientists and to the Zionist cause as
1478
01:04:08,349 --> 01:04:13,250
compared to the way the UN looks at the
1479
01:04:11,510 --> 01:04:14,990
conflict today very very interesting
1480
01:04:13,250 --> 01:04:16,730
thank you for the question thank you
1481
01:04:14,990 --> 01:04:20,119
well here comes another UCLA professor
1482
01:04:16,730 --> 01:04:21,770
Martin gilens of the UCLA lust Luskin
1483
01:04:20,119 --> 01:04:23,720
Public Policy Department another
1484
01:04:21,770 --> 01:04:25,400
difficult question of course was there
1485
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:28,549
anything the British could have done in
1486
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:30,260
the face of the conflicting desires of
1487
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:33,349
the Jews and Arabs that would have led
1488
01:04:30,260 --> 01:04:37,700
to a significantly better outcome better
1489
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:41,210
in quotes if so what so that's that's
1490
01:04:37,700 --> 01:04:42,890
the hardest question of all because even
1491
01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:45,140
with perfect hindsight professor
1492
01:04:42,890 --> 01:04:49,910
Gillings even with perfect hindsight it
1493
01:04:45,140 --> 01:04:51,680
is hard to say as against a religious
1494
01:04:49,910 --> 01:04:54,349
conflict a conflict of conflicting
1495
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:57,619
national movements claiming a rights to
1496
01:04:54,349 --> 01:04:58,670
the same real estate hard to say what
1497
01:04:57,619 --> 01:05:00,619
Britain could have done differently
1498
01:04:58,670 --> 01:05:03,020
other than one thing other than one
1499
01:05:00,619 --> 01:05:07,069
thing a Britain should have been as the
1500
01:05:03,020 --> 01:05:09,500
Royal Commission said much more clear in
1501
01:05:07,069 --> 01:05:13,430
expressing its intentions not just in
1502
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:16,099
the October 24 1915 letter not just in
1503
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:19,130
the Balfour Declaration not just in the
1504
01:05:16,099 --> 01:05:21,619
1922 Churchill white paper but
1505
01:05:19,130 --> 01:05:24,680
throughout the entirety of the mandate
1506
01:05:21,619 --> 01:05:27,799
the Colonial Office especially was
1507
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:31,130
constantly fudging constantly engaging
1508
01:05:27,799 --> 01:05:33,529
in ambiguity to try to achieve some kind
1509
01:05:31,130 --> 01:05:36,559
of a stasis some kind of a balance
1510
01:05:33,529 --> 01:05:40,609
between the two sides when if it had
1511
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:43,400
been more clear more specific less
1512
01:05:40,609 --> 01:05:45,440
ambiguous about its intentions it might
1513
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,480
have angered one side or the other but
1514
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,329
it might have ironically been able to
1515
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:54,250
achieve a solution and that would have
1516
01:05:50,329 --> 01:05:57,710
saved us many many many decades of
1517
01:05:54,250 --> 01:05:59,599
bloodshed and an agony between then and
1518
01:05:57,710 --> 01:06:02,299
now thank you so much great question
1519
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:04,970
thank you and now a question of mr.
1520
01:06:02,299 --> 01:06:07,099
Bruce aluminum Kylie and I want to say
1521
01:06:04,970 --> 01:06:09,170
that lots of names I hope I'm getting
1522
01:06:07,099 --> 01:06:11,270
everybody right thank you so much
1523
01:06:09,170 --> 01:06:13,220
professor separates the incredible
1524
01:06:11,270 --> 01:06:15,349
presentation was there any connection be
1525
01:06:13,220 --> 01:06:17,270
the legal findings of the three
1526
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:19,579
enquiries and the Declaration of Israeli
1527
01:06:17,270 --> 01:06:22,430
independence following the end of the
1528
01:06:19,579 --> 01:06:24,260
Jewish mandate or was it politics taking
1529
01:06:22,430 --> 01:06:28,300
its own direction regardless of legal
1530
01:06:24,260 --> 01:06:30,980
findings so a great question again
1531
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:32,510
interestingly enough I would say that
1532
01:06:30,980 --> 01:06:34,720
with respect to the Israeli Declaration
1533
01:06:32,510 --> 01:06:38,270
of Independence itself you certainly see
1534
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:41,030
the idea of protecting the the rights
1535
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:42,740
and position of the indigenous non
1536
01:06:41,030 --> 01:06:44,089
Jewish population reflected that
1537
01:06:42,740 --> 01:06:46,520
languages in the Declaration of
1538
01:06:44,089 --> 01:06:48,650
Independence for sure coming from the
1539
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:52,790
Dhafir declaration and coming from the
1540
01:06:48,650 --> 01:06:55,490
mandate also very interesting that of
1541
01:06:52,790 --> 01:06:57,380
course leading up to the Israeli
1542
01:06:55,490 --> 01:07:00,530
Declaration of Independence we had not
1543
01:06:57,380 --> 01:07:03,650
just the two-state proposal of the peel
1544
01:07:00,530 --> 01:07:07,839
Commission in 1937 but we had UN General
1545
01:07:03,650 --> 01:07:10,099
Assembly resolution 181 November 29 1947
1546
01:07:07,839 --> 01:07:14,710
proposing another version of a two-state
1547
01:07:10,099 --> 01:07:17,510
solution which of course led to the
1548
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:19,760
declaration of independence at
1549
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:22,000
ben-gurion read in Tel Aviv on
1550
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:25,310
Rothschild Boulevard on May 15 1948
1551
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:28,310
thank you for the question another
1552
01:07:25,310 --> 01:07:32,000
mutual friends Mostafa analyst ah is
1553
01:07:28,310 --> 01:07:34,040
asking is saying the following hello
1554
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,450
come actually discussed this point the
1555
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,859
idea that there was no denial of a
1556
01:07:35,450 --> 01:07:38,690
temple in the 20s and 30s
1557
01:07:36,859 --> 01:07:41,230
I think this meant is mentioned in his
1558
01:07:38,690 --> 01:07:44,780
book of 1928
1559
01:07:41,230 --> 01:07:48,050
Year Zero of the conflict as you see I'm
1560
01:07:44,780 --> 01:07:51,950
adding as you suggested yeah yeah Hillel
1561
01:07:48,050 --> 01:07:54,050
Cohen's book is fantastic and without
1562
01:07:51,950 --> 01:07:55,520
getting into what the what the witnesses
1563
01:07:54,050 --> 01:07:57,170
said in the trial have addressed that
1564
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,020
but I do want to make a point that
1565
01:07:57,170 --> 01:08:02,569
Professor Cohen fantastic point that he
1566
01:08:00,020 --> 01:08:04,640
made in his book remember I talked about
1567
01:08:02,569 --> 01:08:07,790
the screen the removal of the screen on
1568
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:10,460
Yom Kippur in 1928 a professor Cohen
1569
01:08:07,790 --> 01:08:12,109
looking at the testimony in the trial
1570
01:08:10,460 --> 01:08:14,240
before the Shaw Commission came to the
1571
01:08:12,109 --> 01:08:16,520
conclusion that the removal of the
1572
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,890
screen was the result not of a dispute
1573
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:20,930
between Muslims and Jews but of a
1574
01:08:18,890 --> 01:08:24,350
dispute between the Ashkenazi and the
1575
01:08:20,930 --> 01:08:27,049
safar T Beatles were watchmen at the
1576
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:28,670
wall the Sephardi Beatle was a
1577
01:08:27,049 --> 01:08:30,949
there'd been this group of Polish Jews
1578
01:08:28,670 --> 01:08:32,179
that came with their rabbi the safari
1579
01:08:30,949 --> 01:08:33,619
beetle was upset that he wasn't
1580
01:08:32,179 --> 01:08:35,239
receiving the tips that he was
1581
01:08:33,619 --> 01:08:39,619
ordinarily accustomed to receiving and
1582
01:08:35,239 --> 01:08:43,940
he sort of squealed on the Ashkenazi who
1583
01:08:39,619 --> 01:08:46,219
had plans to bring the screen and the
1584
01:08:43,940 --> 01:08:48,859
Safari beetle tipped off the Muslims I
1585
01:08:46,219 --> 01:08:50,630
don't I don't put as much stock in that
1586
01:08:48,859 --> 01:08:53,929
argument as Professor Cohen does with
1587
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:56,059
all respect I do think this was at
1588
01:08:53,929 --> 01:08:57,859
bottom from the perspective of the
1589
01:08:56,059 --> 01:09:01,250
British authorities a law enforcement
1590
01:08:57,859 --> 01:09:02,119
matter the law was clear the status quo
1591
01:09:01,250 --> 01:09:03,829
was the law
1592
01:09:02,119 --> 01:09:05,270
the Jews broke the law by bringing a
1593
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:07,750
screen and therefore the police needed
1594
01:09:05,270 --> 01:09:10,609
to be sent in to take the screen away
1595
01:09:07,750 --> 01:09:13,699
thank you another give to a friend Hoda
1596
01:09:10,609 --> 01:09:16,099
a lot from Egypt in the land and she ass
1597
01:09:13,699 --> 01:09:18,529
in the line of creative solutions had
1598
01:09:16,099 --> 01:09:18,920
the solution proposed by Prince Mohammed
1599
01:09:18,529 --> 01:09:21,469
Ali
1600
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:24,199
been accepted back then what you have
1601
01:09:21,469 --> 01:09:27,170
ended the enmity of the Jews and the
1602
01:09:24,199 --> 01:09:30,230
Muslims well again with perfect
1603
01:09:27,170 --> 01:09:33,650
hindsight one can only speculate what
1604
01:09:30,230 --> 01:09:39,290
would have happened if Prince Muhammad
1605
01:09:33,650 --> 01:09:40,460
Ali's proposal had become known we can
1606
01:09:39,290 --> 01:09:43,099
speculate that maybe he wouldn't have
1607
01:09:40,460 --> 01:09:46,099
survived very long the mufti would have
1608
01:09:43,099 --> 01:09:48,130
been extremely angry and the supporters
1609
01:09:46,099 --> 01:09:53,000
of the mufti would not have tolerated
1610
01:09:48,130 --> 01:09:55,699
any proposal by someone from Egypt to to
1611
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,570
sell walk property to the Jews on the
1612
01:09:55,699 --> 01:10:01,040
other hand though I think that what
1613
01:09:58,570 --> 01:10:05,389
Prince Muhammad Ali did was incredibly
1614
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:07,790
heroic incredibly creative and while it
1615
01:10:05,389 --> 01:10:09,980
may not itself have ended up as the
1616
01:10:07,790 --> 01:10:11,510
solution I think that it could have been
1617
01:10:09,980 --> 01:10:14,989
the beginning of a very very interesting
1618
01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:16,489
dialogue brokered by Egypt which of
1619
01:10:14,989 --> 01:10:18,139
course has emerged over the years is an
1620
01:10:16,489 --> 01:10:20,800
extraordinarily important broker between
1621
01:10:18,139 --> 01:10:23,540
the Palestinian Arabs and the Israelis
1622
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:26,000
and we could have seen something very
1623
01:10:23,540 --> 01:10:28,400
very interesting and very dramatic if
1624
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:30,889
the British had taken his proposal more
1625
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:32,829
seriously and protected him well while
1626
01:10:30,889 --> 01:10:35,449
moving forward with it
1627
01:10:32,829 --> 01:10:39,139
thank you the question thank you
1628
01:10:35,449 --> 01:10:40,969
Thank You Omar Ron when uh a UCLA
1629
01:10:39,139 --> 01:10:44,180
student for
1630
01:10:40,969 --> 01:10:46,190
Egypt if I see my the notes correctly if
1631
01:10:44,180 --> 01:10:47,780
the papasa offer had been published and
1632
01:10:46,190 --> 01:10:49,699
the purchase was considered acceptable
1633
01:10:47,780 --> 01:10:51,469
by the Palestinians and went through
1634
01:10:49,699 --> 01:10:55,640
what would be the repercussions
1635
01:10:51,469 --> 01:10:57,230
throughout the 40s and 50s well if the
1636
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:58,730
mufti had endorsed it which I don't
1637
01:10:57,230 --> 01:11:00,980
think in a million years he would have
1638
01:10:58,730 --> 01:11:02,090
done but it would have been all up to
1639
01:11:00,980 --> 01:11:04,699
the move to you if the mufti had
1640
01:11:02,090 --> 01:11:06,290
endorsed the idea things could have
1641
01:11:04,699 --> 01:11:09,260
turned out very very differently for the
1642
01:11:06,290 --> 01:11:10,790
two peoples but hard to imagine the
1643
01:11:09,260 --> 01:11:14,989
mufti ever going along with that
1644
01:11:10,790 --> 01:11:18,460
proposal very difficult to imagine all
1645
01:11:14,989 --> 01:11:19,699
right and we have a question from Sam
1646
01:11:18,460 --> 01:11:22,550
villamaria
1647
01:11:19,699 --> 01:11:24,710
and alumnus from UCLA I gather can we
1648
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:28,370
blame the UK for problems between
1649
01:11:24,710 --> 01:11:34,340
Palestine Israel they did the same thing
1650
01:11:28,370 --> 01:11:37,730
in India accent it's very easy to blame
1651
01:11:34,340 --> 01:11:41,449
the UK for their duplicity to both sides
1652
01:11:37,730 --> 01:11:43,719
for what ben-gurion described years
1653
01:11:41,449 --> 01:11:47,120
later in a letter to his wife Paula as
1654
01:11:43,719 --> 01:11:49,010
selling the same horse twice to two
1655
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:50,239
people without each other really being
1656
01:11:49,010 --> 01:11:52,550
aware of it the McMahon Hussein
1657
01:11:50,239 --> 01:11:56,810
correspondence did not become publicly
1658
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:59,660
known until early 1923 when a Daily Mail
1659
01:11:56,810 --> 01:12:01,520
reporter named Jeffries published
1660
01:11:59,660 --> 01:12:03,080
portions of it and the full
1661
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:05,270
correspondence was not published until
1662
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:09,110
Georgia Antonia is his famous book the
1663
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:11,510
Arab Awakening in late 1938 so very easy
1664
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:14,449
to blame the British for duplicity for
1665
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:16,550
cynicism for manipulation but again as I
1666
01:12:14,449 --> 01:12:19,550
said earlier from the British
1667
01:12:16,550 --> 01:12:22,100
perspective they did during World War
1668
01:12:19,550 --> 01:12:23,719
one that which they needed to do to
1669
01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:25,760
emerge victorious they needed the Turks
1670
01:12:23,719 --> 01:12:28,190
to rise up I mean they needed the local
1671
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:30,590
Arabs to rise up against the Turks in
1672
01:12:28,190 --> 01:12:33,110
1915 and 1917 they needed Jewish
1673
01:12:30,590 --> 01:12:35,210
financial support leading to the
1674
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:36,260
decision in the cabinet to authorized
1675
01:12:35,210 --> 01:12:40,250
the issuance of the Balfour Declaration
1676
01:12:36,260 --> 01:12:42,949
in 1938 and thirty-nine again the
1677
01:12:40,250 --> 01:12:44,620
British facing Nazi aggression needed to
1678
01:12:42,949 --> 01:12:47,989
protect its flank in the Middle East and
1679
01:12:44,620 --> 01:12:50,330
issued the white paper to appease a
1680
01:12:47,989 --> 01:12:51,960
Harrod sentiment and so from the British
1681
01:12:50,330 --> 01:12:54,530
perspective
1682
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:56,730
Britain pursued a policy of realpolitik
1683
01:12:54,530 --> 01:12:59,100
protecting its own interests above all
1684
01:12:56,730 --> 01:13:01,320
else and by the way I mentioned
1685
01:12:59,100 --> 01:13:03,450
Churchill's secret testimony to the
1686
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:05,610
Royal Commission Churchill well very
1687
01:13:03,450 --> 01:13:08,370
very bullish on Zionism makes very clear
1688
01:13:05,610 --> 01:13:10,680
that it's not because he's a lover of
1689
01:13:08,370 --> 01:13:13,110
the Jewish people or because he loves
1690
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,910
the Zionist project it's because he
1691
01:13:13,110 --> 01:13:17,640
believes that it is in Britain's own
1692
01:13:14,910 --> 01:13:20,280
interest to support statehood for the
1693
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:22,080
Jewish people in Palestine that's the
1694
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:27,500
only reason not because he's sentimental
1695
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:30,840
or anything else okay we have a question
1696
01:13:27,500 --> 01:13:33,870
from Rima Musa she's a student at UC
1697
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:36,150
Santa Barbara and president of the UC SB
1698
01:13:33,870 --> 01:13:38,610
chapter of the olive tree initiative and
1699
01:13:36,150 --> 01:13:42,450
the question and she's currently located
1700
01:13:38,610 --> 01:13:44,790
in Santa in Santa Barbara she says thank
1701
01:13:42,450 --> 01:13:46,469
you for this lecture professor
1702
01:13:44,790 --> 01:13:47,910
proceeding I'm wondering if you think
1703
01:13:46,469 --> 01:13:49,680
there was a potential for more creative
1704
01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:51,630
solutions to the conflict to emerge at
1705
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,489
the moment they could potentially bring
1706
01:13:51,630 --> 01:13:55,050
the conflict to an end or if the
1707
01:13:53,489 --> 01:13:57,000
conditions of the conflict at the time
1708
01:13:55,050 --> 01:13:58,380
were uniquely suited to support such
1709
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:01,980
fair solutions that you've mentioned
1710
01:13:58,380 --> 01:14:04,290
from vitamin and Pacha great question
1711
01:14:01,980 --> 01:14:07,200
and I'm optimistic I think that there is
1712
01:14:04,290 --> 01:14:11,160
always room for creative solutions for
1713
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:12,739
great solutions lots of people have
1714
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:17,400
talked about the Arab Peace Initiative
1715
01:14:12,739 --> 01:14:18,690
there's some elements of the I'm not
1716
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,940
endorsing this by the way but there's
1717
01:14:18,690 --> 01:14:22,440
some elements of the Trump proposal the
1718
01:14:20,940 --> 01:14:23,340
economic side in particular that are
1719
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:26,880
interesting
1720
01:14:23,340 --> 01:14:29,760
clearly the proposals that Olmert made
1721
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:31,860
Prime Minister Olmert made to Abu Mazen
1722
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:33,480
very very interesting so there's a lot
1723
01:14:31,860 --> 01:14:36,239
of really good ideas out there and there
1724
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:38,910
is no shortage of great ideas that we
1725
01:14:36,239 --> 01:14:41,040
can develop if we really put our minds
1726
01:14:38,910 --> 01:14:43,410
to it and we become creative there is a
1727
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:45,900
lot that we can do and there's no limit
1728
01:14:43,410 --> 01:14:47,010
to the amount of our creativity and I
1729
01:14:45,900 --> 01:14:49,950
want to thank you for the question
1730
01:14:47,010 --> 01:14:51,870
because that's what inspired me to
1731
01:14:49,950 --> 01:14:53,790
embark on this project of writing these
1732
01:14:51,870 --> 01:14:56,010
books and I'm really really grateful to
1733
01:14:53,790 --> 01:14:58,440
you for for for bringing that concept
1734
01:14:56,010 --> 01:15:00,150
forward thank you thank you this
1735
01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:01,830
question would be to Breyer the Arab
1736
01:15:00,150 --> 01:15:03,480
states of Palestine is finally resorted
1737
01:15:01,830 --> 01:15:04,070
to war to solve their dispute with
1738
01:15:03,480 --> 01:15:06,320
design
1739
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:09,260
did they thereby forfeit their legal
1740
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,700
right to their ownership of the land so
1741
01:15:09,260 --> 01:15:13,910
I'm going to address this in my next
1742
01:15:10,700 --> 01:15:15,740
book there is a professor of law named
1743
01:15:13,910 --> 01:15:18,140
Eugene contour a bitch who published an
1744
01:15:15,740 --> 01:15:20,810
article a few years back in the Arizona
1745
01:15:18,140 --> 01:15:23,540
State Law Review in which professor
1746
01:15:20,810 --> 01:15:25,910
contour bitch discusses a concept called
1747
01:15:23,540 --> 01:15:30,110
an international law called booty posted
1748
01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:34,550
dentist juris which fundamentally states
1749
01:15:30,110 --> 01:15:38,330
that the borders of post-colonial or
1750
01:15:34,550 --> 01:15:40,070
post mandatory entities are legally the
1751
01:15:38,330 --> 01:15:42,440
borders that existed as of the end of
1752
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:44,990
colonial rule or the end of a mandate
1753
01:15:42,440 --> 01:15:49,760
and so professor contour images point is
1754
01:15:44,990 --> 01:15:55,070
that when the palestinians rejected UN
1755
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:59,270
resolution 181 in November of 1947 that
1756
01:15:55,070 --> 01:16:01,220
effectively the British termination of
1757
01:15:59,270 --> 01:16:04,910
the mandate a few months later in May of
1758
01:16:01,220 --> 01:16:07,850
1948 rendered the legal borders of the
1759
01:16:04,910 --> 01:16:10,820
new State of Israel the same as the
1760
01:16:07,850 --> 01:16:14,510
borders of the Palestine Mandate meaning
1761
01:16:10,820 --> 01:16:17,300
that Israel legally owned not just what
1762
01:16:14,510 --> 01:16:19,190
the UN allocated but everything else
1763
01:16:17,300 --> 01:16:21,170
that had been earmarked for the
1764
01:16:19,190 --> 01:16:23,440
Palestinian Arabs and the Palestinian
1765
01:16:21,170 --> 01:16:25,580
Arabs walked away from including the
1766
01:16:23,440 --> 01:16:29,900
modern day what we would call the West
1767
01:16:25,580 --> 01:16:32,480
Bank and Gaza obviously the Palestinian
1768
01:16:29,900 --> 01:16:34,570
Arab lawyers and their supporters do not
1769
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:37,700
agree with the professor contour which
1770
01:16:34,570 --> 01:16:43,940
I'm going to be writing about that in my
1771
01:16:37,700 --> 01:16:45,260
next book okay thank you very much we
1772
01:16:43,940 --> 01:16:47,240
have a question from our own row a
1773
01:16:45,260 --> 01:16:49,700
rycart a graduate student you see a
1774
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:51,410
woman graduate student at UCLA and he
1775
01:16:49,700 --> 01:16:52,760
says it's a broad question how do you
1776
01:16:51,410 --> 01:16:55,700
think that this kind of historical
1777
01:16:52,760 --> 01:17:00,110
research can bear that all on the
1778
01:16:55,700 --> 01:17:01,490
present situation um
1779
01:17:00,110 --> 01:17:03,740
Rowley thank you so much for the
1780
01:17:01,490 --> 01:17:06,440
question I think the historical research
1781
01:17:03,740 --> 01:17:08,420
is extraordinarily important very very
1782
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:10,940
relevant I mean for one thing we
1783
01:17:08,420 --> 01:17:13,970
discovered that this tendency to use the
1784
01:17:10,940 --> 01:17:16,490
law is not new law fair is not a brand
1785
01:17:13,970 --> 01:17:17,690
new concept in the last 20 years since
1786
01:17:16,490 --> 01:17:19,820
the palace
1787
01:17:17,690 --> 01:17:21,380
Arabs challenged the legality of the
1788
01:17:19,820 --> 01:17:23,090
wall of separation at the International
1789
01:17:21,380 --> 01:17:25,250
Court of Justice it's something that's
1790
01:17:23,090 --> 01:17:28,370
been going on for a long time and it's
1791
01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:30,920
extremely helpful I think to understand
1792
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:33,860
the position and of both the Jewish side
1793
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:36,890
and the Palestinian Arab side to trace
1794
01:17:33,860 --> 01:17:38,870
their arguments today to their origin 90
1795
01:17:36,890 --> 01:17:40,489
years ago and a hundred years ago it's
1796
01:17:38,870 --> 01:17:42,710
extraordinarily important to have that
1797
01:17:40,489 --> 01:17:45,140
context in that history as we think
1798
01:17:42,710 --> 01:17:47,420
about as our last question or just asked
1799
01:17:45,140 --> 01:17:49,910
how we can construct and formulate
1800
01:17:47,420 --> 01:17:50,960
creative ideas to move forward I think
1801
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:53,719
it's extraordinarily extraordinarily
1802
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:56,540
important to have the context it's
1803
01:17:53,719 --> 01:17:59,840
really for the question thank you very
1804
01:17:56,540 --> 01:18:02,840
much there been so many questions it's
1805
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:04,670
hard to remember who who has had a
1806
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:06,380
chance to ask I don't think we've had
1807
01:18:04,670 --> 01:18:08,270
the following from a rough lot SOPA
1808
01:18:06,380 --> 01:18:13,449
my name is Robert SOPA from Bethlehem
1809
01:18:08,270 --> 01:18:16,420
Palestine I'm a senior economist at AU
1810
01:18:13,449 --> 01:18:18,770
NGO what happened eventually with the
1811
01:18:16,420 --> 01:18:20,560
Megrahi quarter and the other two
1812
01:18:18,770 --> 01:18:24,530
suggestions were adopted other than
1813
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:27,350
Pasha's one neither of the other
1814
01:18:24,530 --> 01:18:29,900
suggestions from Felix Tim NSA or from
1815
01:18:27,350 --> 01:18:32,360
Pincus Ruttenberg were adopted the
1816
01:18:29,900 --> 01:18:35,660
British took no action on expropriation
1817
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,969
and in fact Sir John Chancellor the High
1818
01:18:35,660 --> 01:18:40,449
Commissioner I mentioned in Palestine at
1819
01:18:37,969 --> 01:18:45,350
the permanent mandates Commission
1820
01:18:40,449 --> 01:18:46,550
meeting in 1929 told the permanent
1821
01:18:45,350 --> 01:18:47,870
mandates Commission he just sort of
1822
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:50,030
volunteered this he said look there have
1823
01:18:47,870 --> 01:18:51,980
been some proposals not referring to
1824
01:18:50,030 --> 01:18:55,460
those two but to others to expropriate
1825
01:18:51,980 --> 01:18:56,510
the area in front of the wall the Mogra
1826
01:18:55,460 --> 01:18:58,100
quarter and you said the British
1827
01:18:56,510 --> 01:19:01,219
government will not do that we will not
1828
01:18:58,100 --> 01:19:04,060
do that we don't want to risk turning
1829
01:19:01,219 --> 01:19:09,560
the mokra quarter into a flashpoint for
1830
01:19:04,060 --> 01:19:11,840
violence so just very very interesting
1831
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:13,280
that those proposals whether you think
1832
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,770
of them is creative or you think of them
1833
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:17,780
as destructive we're simply not acted on
1834
01:19:15,770 --> 01:19:19,100
I'm sorry I forgot the first part of the
1835
01:19:17,780 --> 01:19:24,949
question professor Spiegel and I'd like
1836
01:19:19,100 --> 01:19:27,690
to come back to that I've got about 50
1837
01:19:24,949 --> 01:19:30,510
questions I'm struggling with okay
1838
01:19:27,690 --> 01:19:31,080
though I have to admit it was it rough
1839
01:19:30,510 --> 01:19:33,680
hot soba
1840
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,680
yeah
1841
01:19:34,170 --> 01:19:37,950
the question was any of the other two
1842
01:19:36,450 --> 01:19:40,400
suggestions were adopted other than
1843
01:19:37,950 --> 01:19:42,810
cautious one yes the other question was
1844
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:45,900
what happened eventually with the McGraw
1845
01:19:42,810 --> 01:19:47,430
B quarter oh yeah okay thank you so as I
1846
01:19:45,900 --> 01:19:50,790
showed you in that one photograph the
1847
01:19:47,430 --> 01:19:52,590
Israelis in the elation after the
1848
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:54,930
six-day war in the immediate aftermath a
1849
01:19:52,590 --> 01:19:58,380
couple of days later after capturing the
1850
01:19:54,930 --> 01:20:02,010
Old City of Jerusalem bulldozed the
1851
01:19:58,380 --> 01:20:03,960
Mulgrew B quarter and that was something
1852
01:20:02,010 --> 01:20:04,830
they did in broad daylight they didn't
1853
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:07,800
hide it from the world
1854
01:20:04,830 --> 01:20:10,220
there was a photographic exhibit at the
1855
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:13,230
Tower of David Museum in Jerusalem
1856
01:20:10,220 --> 01:20:16,080
Jewish exhibit a last year that showed
1857
01:20:13,230 --> 01:20:19,410
the same photograph I showed you and to
1858
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:22,290
this day the Palestinian Arabs some of
1859
01:20:19,410 --> 01:20:25,050
their lawyers harkening back to the
1860
01:20:22,290 --> 01:20:29,400
second of the three trials take the
1861
01:20:25,050 --> 01:20:33,480
position that the Lofgren verdict was
1862
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:36,510
that ownership of the wall and the Mogra
1863
01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:38,430
be area not the pavement in front of the
1864
01:20:36,510 --> 01:20:41,130
wall but the mokra be area and the wall
1865
01:20:38,430 --> 01:20:43,170
reside with the muslims and that that
1866
01:20:41,130 --> 01:20:45,540
continues to be the law to this day the
1867
01:20:43,170 --> 01:20:47,160
Israel of course disagrees is realists
1868
01:20:45,540 --> 01:20:51,510
best legislation declaring the wall
1869
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:53,250
bears but again we see the the origins
1870
01:20:51,510 --> 01:20:55,170
of the legal arguments we hear today all
1871
01:20:53,250 --> 01:20:58,080
the way back in 1930 thank you for the
1872
01:20:55,170 --> 01:21:04,170
question thank you moving to Argentina
1873
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:05,550
from Maximiliano bum castle stock thanks
1874
01:21:04,170 --> 01:21:07,530
for a very interesting and insightful
1875
01:21:05,550 --> 01:21:08,910
presentation coming back from history to
1876
01:21:07,530 --> 01:21:10,560
the present times do you think that
1877
01:21:08,910 --> 01:21:12,660
there's room and there would be
1878
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:14,760
advantages in using that legal process
1879
01:21:12,660 --> 01:21:17,010
approach based on the applicable law and
1880
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:18,930
formal legal debate visa vie the
1881
01:21:17,010 --> 01:21:21,830
ineffective political religious and
1882
01:21:18,930 --> 01:21:25,580
military Senate approach in the region
1883
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:28,260
Thank You max so much for the question
1884
01:21:25,580 --> 01:21:29,880
here's one interesting thing the Lofgren
1885
01:21:28,260 --> 01:21:31,320
commissioned the second trial remember i
1886
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,690
said their verdict was as kind of a
1887
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:36,120
split verdict both sides got a little
1888
01:21:33,690 --> 01:21:38,520
bit both sides were unhappy that they
1889
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:40,670
didn't get everything they wanted but
1890
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,350
the fact of the matter is that
1891
01:21:40,670 --> 01:21:45,140
between the time the verdict was issued
1892
01:21:42,350 --> 01:21:47,750
in late 1930 and the end of the British
1893
01:21:45,140 --> 01:21:50,650
Mandate in 1948 there were no more
1894
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:53,870
flare-ups at the wall itself there were
1895
01:21:50,650 --> 01:21:58,550
terrible riots during the Arab revolt of
1896
01:21:53,870 --> 01:22:01,880
course from 1936 to 1939 but the Lofgren
1897
01:21:58,550 --> 01:22:04,160
Commission verdict seemed once and for
1898
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:04,880
all given that it was sort of a split
1899
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:07,010
decision
1900
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:08,480
leaving neither side with everything and
1901
01:22:07,010 --> 01:22:13,250
neither side particularly happy it
1902
01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:14,480
seemed to achieve a measure of calm at
1903
01:22:13,250 --> 01:22:17,270
the wall
1904
01:22:14,480 --> 01:22:20,300
the British government codified the
1905
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:25,580
Lofgren verdict in 1931 issuing an order
1906
01:22:20,300 --> 01:22:27,500
in Council that turned into law the
1907
01:22:25,580 --> 01:22:29,150
various elements of the law African
1908
01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:31,940
verdict including the pan on blowing the
1909
01:22:29,150 --> 01:22:33,650
shofar by Jews at any time including
1910
01:22:31,940 --> 01:22:36,560
Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur I would
1911
01:22:33,650 --> 01:22:39,140
tell you that in in all the years that
1912
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:42,290
followed there was only one prosecution
1913
01:22:39,140 --> 01:22:44,630
that I was able to find of a Jew for
1914
01:22:42,290 --> 01:22:47,150
breaking the law and blowing the shofar
1915
01:22:44,630 --> 01:22:50,210
at the wall that happened in 1946 and
1916
01:22:47,150 --> 01:22:53,120
the British judge in Jerusalem dismissed
1917
01:22:50,210 --> 01:22:55,280
the case finding that the prosecution
1918
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:58,670
although they had many witnesses who
1919
01:22:55,280 --> 01:23:01,940
testified that the young fellow blew the
1920
01:22:58,670 --> 01:23:03,440
shofar at the wall on Yom Kippur the
1921
01:23:01,940 --> 01:23:05,300
judge dismissed the case because the
1922
01:23:03,440 --> 01:23:08,540
prosecution forgot to prove that the
1923
01:23:05,300 --> 01:23:11,120
defendant was in fact a Jew very very
1924
01:23:08,540 --> 01:23:13,280
interested back what forgot to prove
1925
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:15,530
that the defendant was in fact Jewish
1926
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:17,840
because the law only banned Jews from
1927
01:23:15,530 --> 01:23:20,090
blowing the shofar Christians were
1928
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:22,550
allowed to do so
1929
01:23:20,090 --> 01:23:25,699
here's one of our mutual students
1930
01:23:22,550 --> 01:23:26,929
D'Amico Evy Maiko we all call her what
1931
01:23:25,699 --> 01:23:29,060
was the different Wiener Woodhead
1932
01:23:26,929 --> 01:23:31,130
Commission and the peel Commission and
1933
01:23:29,060 --> 01:23:32,890
why was the peel Commission the one that
1934
01:23:31,130 --> 01:23:35,690
they decided a question at the trial
1935
01:23:32,890 --> 01:23:38,600
Thank You Miko so the peel Commission
1936
01:23:35,690 --> 01:23:41,360
rendered its partition proposal in July
1937
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:43,460
of 1937 and after that the British
1938
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:45,590
government sent a follow-on Commission a
1939
01:23:43,460 --> 01:23:47,929
technical Commission to work out the
1940
01:23:45,590 --> 01:23:50,270
details of partition and that was known
1941
01:23:47,929 --> 01:23:52,040
as the Woodhead Commission which spent a
1942
01:23:50,270 --> 01:23:52,900
long time in Palestine and then came
1943
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,489
back
1944
01:23:52,900 --> 01:23:58,690
with a report to the government on
1945
01:23:54,489 --> 01:24:01,480
November 9 1938 ironically the same
1946
01:23:58,690 --> 01:24:03,610
exact day as cristal knocked in Germany
1947
01:24:01,480 --> 01:24:05,590
and the Woodhead Commission reported
1948
01:24:03,610 --> 01:24:08,170
back to the government that partition
1949
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:10,449
was in fact not a workable solution and
1950
01:24:08,170 --> 01:24:13,980
the British government then in its white
1951
01:24:10,449 --> 01:24:17,320
paper of May 1939 formally abandoned
1952
01:24:13,980 --> 01:24:19,120
partition capped Jewish immigration to
1953
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:23,400
Palestine for the next five years in a
1954
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:26,350
grand total of seventy five thousand and
1955
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:29,350
endorsed the creation of a majority
1956
01:24:26,350 --> 01:24:32,170
ruled Palestine within ten years time
1957
01:24:29,350 --> 01:24:34,719
that was the most favorable proposal
1958
01:24:32,170 --> 01:24:35,920
ever made to the Palestinian Arabs and
1959
01:24:34,719 --> 01:24:37,750
I'm going to talk about that in great
1960
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:39,940
detail in my next book thanks meek over
1961
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:43,150
the question next question is from
1962
01:24:39,940 --> 01:24:45,250
Mohammed Abdel Fattah from Palestine
1963
01:24:43,150 --> 01:24:48,100
even if you kake colonial administration
1964
01:24:45,250 --> 01:24:49,480
was clear in this language why you K
1965
01:24:48,100 --> 01:24:51,400
declaration the position should be a
1966
01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:53,489
reference to legal claims at both sides
1967
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:57,640
of the conflict
1968
01:24:53,489 --> 01:25:00,070
um again great question and goes back to
1969
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,840
what I was saying earlier about the
1970
01:25:00,070 --> 01:25:04,750
notion that that the British embraced
1971
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:07,060
which was that large elements of the
1972
01:25:04,750 --> 01:25:08,560
conflict were legal in nature again
1973
01:25:07,060 --> 01:25:10,780
going back to Britain's obligations
1974
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,719
under the mandate which is why Britain
1975
01:25:10,780 --> 01:25:16,380
convened really all three of those
1976
01:25:13,719 --> 01:25:21,159
trials all three of those commissions
1977
01:25:16,380 --> 01:25:23,170
thank you very much some are about goaty
1978
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:25,630
royal university for women what is the
1979
01:25:23,170 --> 01:25:28,360
legal set the whaling will now and on
1980
01:25:25,630 --> 01:25:30,300
what legal basis as I said earlier the
1981
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:32,860
legal status of the wall is disputed
1982
01:25:30,300 --> 01:25:34,810
Israel claims ownership by virtue of
1983
01:25:32,860 --> 01:25:37,780
legislation had passed after the six-day
1984
01:25:34,810 --> 01:25:40,719
war and many Palestinian legal scholars
1985
01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:43,659
go back to the 1930 the lockring
1986
01:25:40,719 --> 01:25:47,350
commission claiming that the walk still
1987
01:25:43,659 --> 01:25:49,810
owns not just the Haram al-sharif but
1988
01:25:47,350 --> 01:25:51,940
also the wall which is part of the
1989
01:25:49,810 --> 01:25:54,250
curtilage part of the retaining wall of
1990
01:25:51,940 --> 01:25:55,150
the Temple Mount or the Haram thank you
1991
01:25:54,250 --> 01:25:57,370
for the question
1992
01:25:55,150 --> 01:25:58,780
Kobi who remain from Israel thank thank
1993
01:25:57,370 --> 01:26:01,449
you Steve for wonderful presentation
1994
01:25:58,780 --> 01:26:03,460
during the different trials who were the
1995
01:26:01,449 --> 01:26:05,770
masterminds on each side that set their
1996
01:26:03,460 --> 01:26:06,610
legal strategies and argumentation or
1997
01:26:05,770 --> 01:26:10,810
was it left
1998
01:26:06,610 --> 01:26:13,570
the lawyers on each side Thank You Koby
1999
01:26:10,810 --> 01:26:16,270
really grateful for the question because
2000
01:26:13,570 --> 01:26:18,220
the documents show that during the first
2001
01:26:16,270 --> 01:26:21,070
trial the trial that went so poorly for
2002
01:26:18,220 --> 01:26:22,840
the Jewish side veidt's Minh sitting in
2003
01:26:21,070 --> 01:26:28,150
his office in the Jewish Agency in
2004
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:31,690
London was constantly meddling in the
2005
01:26:28,150 --> 01:26:34,690
goings-on in the courtroom in Jerusalem
2006
01:26:31,690 --> 01:26:36,400
sending cables to the lawyers directing
2007
01:26:34,690 --> 01:26:39,640
the lawyers to ask certain witnesses
2008
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:42,700
certain questions trying desperately to
2009
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:46,420
convince Merryman to try to introduce
2010
01:26:42,700 --> 01:26:48,940
into evidence the letter that by Saul
2011
01:26:46,420 --> 01:26:51,940
that second letter in 1919 at by saw Row
2012
01:26:48,940 --> 01:26:54,330
two Felix Frankfurter by the way
2013
01:26:51,940 --> 01:26:56,680
Merryman tried to introduce the letter
2014
01:26:54,330 --> 01:26:58,630
Ione Bay immediately said that there was
2015
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:00,340
no such letter and he produced a
2016
01:26:58,630 --> 01:27:02,620
telegram from by Saul now the king of
2017
01:27:00,340 --> 01:27:04,450
Iraq if I saw denying that he had ever
2018
01:27:02,620 --> 01:27:07,120
written the letter and Merryman just
2019
01:27:04,450 --> 01:27:10,360
gave up he gave up all he needed to do
2020
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:11,860
was cable frankfurter in Washington or
2021
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:13,270
New York and would have been able to get
2022
01:27:11,860 --> 01:27:16,600
the letter and introduce it Marianna
2023
01:27:13,270 --> 01:27:18,010
just gave up so if I'd spent very deeply
2024
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:20,860
involved in the details and the
2025
01:27:18,010 --> 01:27:22,480
intricacies of the first trial and he
2026
01:27:20,860 --> 01:27:24,940
admitted later that he made a mistake by
2027
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:27,640
doing that especially made a mistake by
2028
01:27:24,940 --> 01:27:30,250
hiring merry men which is why he chose
2029
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:31,570
le atch invites then basically took a
2030
01:27:30,250 --> 01:27:33,490
hands-off approach in the second trial
2031
01:27:31,570 --> 01:27:37,270
and then in the third trial the peel
2032
01:27:33,490 --> 01:27:39,220
Commission as I said Weitzman became the
2033
01:27:37,270 --> 01:27:42,400
most important and the most eloquent
2034
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:44,410
witness the most persuasive witness even
2035
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:46,360
more than Ben Gurion who also testified
2036
01:27:44,410 --> 01:27:49,000
more than Golda Meir who also testified
2037
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:50,560
but this man was by far the most
2038
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:53,640
important witness for the Jewish side
2039
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:56,290
and the third trial and in my view did
2040
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:58,630
spectacular job presenting the Jewish
2041
01:27:56,290 --> 01:28:00,940
case I hope we have time for just one
2042
01:27:58,630 --> 01:28:01,930
last question from Eric sell cough why
2043
01:28:00,940 --> 01:28:07,290
was the San Remo
2044
01:28:01,930 --> 01:28:10,860
Agreement not implemented well San Remo
2045
01:28:07,290 --> 01:28:15,820
was where as I said the boundaries of
2046
01:28:10,860 --> 01:28:19,870
the mandatory area were carved out and
2047
01:28:15,820 --> 01:28:22,120
in fact San Remo was implemented because
2048
01:28:19,870 --> 01:28:25,140
when the mandate the original mandate
2049
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:28,590
was confirmed by the League of Nations
2050
01:28:25,140 --> 01:28:31,690
those boundaries became the boundaries
2051
01:28:28,590 --> 01:28:34,300
Sanremo contained language requiring
2052
01:28:31,690 --> 01:28:36,730
that the Balfour Declaration be
2053
01:28:34,300 --> 01:28:39,220
incorporated by reference and Weitzman
2054
01:28:36,730 --> 01:28:41,350
was able to get language in the preamble
2055
01:28:39,220 --> 01:28:43,720
of the mandate talking about not just
2056
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:46,120
the establishment of a national home for
2057
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:48,940
the Jewish people but the reconstitution
2058
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:51,190
of a national home for the Jewish people
2059
01:28:48,940 --> 01:28:53,920
well reconstitution very important
2060
01:28:51,190 --> 01:28:57,370
concept because it implied that the Jews
2061
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:58,720
weren't just sort of taking over a place
2062
01:28:57,370 --> 01:29:01,030
where they had never been before but
2063
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:03,670
they but that they had historical
2064
01:29:01,030 --> 01:29:07,060
connection and historically based write
2065
01:29:03,670 --> 01:29:09,850
to reconstitute their homeland there and
2066
01:29:07,060 --> 01:29:13,630
so Sanremo really led to in many ways
2067
01:29:09,850 --> 01:29:15,790
the many of the important provisions of
2068
01:29:13,630 --> 01:29:18,700
the mandate which did take on the force
2069
01:29:15,790 --> 01:29:20,470
of international law thank you well I'm
2070
01:29:18,700 --> 01:29:24,040
afraid that last answer I want to
2071
01:29:20,470 --> 01:29:25,840
apologize to to everyone who I couldn't
2072
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:28,480
get in there were so many questions we
2073
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:32,160
had about 60 questions I tried to be as
2074
01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:34,510
fair as I could and I want to thank
2075
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:36,880
professors that are seen not only for
2076
01:29:34,510 --> 01:29:40,420
this marvelous presentation but his
2077
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:43,930
willingness to answer so many questions
2078
01:29:40,420 --> 01:29:46,690
that made yeah it shows when a speaker
2079
01:29:43,930 --> 01:29:48,820
is prepared well and doesn't go over ton
2080
01:29:46,690 --> 01:29:51,850
if that ends a little earlier how much
2081
01:29:48,820 --> 01:29:54,070
you can actually accomplish I want to
2082
01:29:51,850 --> 01:29:58,270
thank all of you who did send us
2083
01:29:54,070 --> 01:30:03,190
questions and it made a huge difference
2084
01:29:58,270 --> 01:30:05,170
I also you met a mini jet at the outset
2085
01:30:03,190 --> 01:30:07,930
or a deputy director I would also like
2086
01:30:05,170 --> 01:30:11,620
to thank some of my Maharaja who spent
2087
01:30:07,930 --> 01:30:14,440
hours of her own time so working so hard
2088
01:30:11,620 --> 01:30:17,470
to make all of this work and work so
2089
01:30:14,440 --> 01:30:20,380
well and I also want to thank Samara
2090
01:30:17,470 --> 01:30:23,170
Smith me for all of her efforts as well
2091
01:30:20,380 --> 01:30:25,210
as part of our staff see me we'll have
2092
01:30:23,170 --> 01:30:28,150
more programs in the future and our
2093
01:30:25,210 --> 01:30:31,210
office will be in touch soon to inform
2094
01:30:28,150 --> 01:30:33,280
you until then our very best in hope
2095
01:30:31,210 --> 01:30:33,810
everyone takes care so they are not
2096
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:38,840
harmed
2097
01:30:33,810 --> 01:30:38,840
by the coronavirus bye bye for now