hello to

everyone everyone from around the world

today uh I'd like to take a moment to

thank our UCLA

co-sponsors the narian center for Israel

studies and the luskan department of

public policy for helping us spread the

word about this

event uh I also want to point out that

our original Israeli speaker ahu

jari uh has come down with um uh a

temporary illness with a very bad cold

Etc and um we miss

him but we also want to thank Nimrod for

his uh coming in the very last

minute uh and for some here who was such

a sport about all of our uh changes

now uh to begin with I have uh uh uh one

of the hardest part of this meeting uh

to uh follow important

information which means it's very hard

to make this exciting even though I will

try uh first while you can see us we

cannot see or hear you second we are

recording the presentation today and the

video will be available on the CED

website YouTube and our Facebook uh page

as soon as possible three if you are

joining us using Zoom please notice the

the Chad window at the bottom of the

screen take a look we will share

announcements during the talk with you

uh in the chat window however you will

not be able to add comments in the chat

box if you have questions for our

speakers or

speaker uh depending what it is please

type uh the questions or the question in

the Q&A window also at the bottom of

your

screen be sure to include your name in

your country and or affiliation and note

then your

name Country and or affiliation will be

announced aloud along with your

question only the cat team will be able

to see your questions in some cases we

will answer questions in writing in the

Q&A window for others to see please keep

questions concise so we can answer as

many questions as possible and

finally uh in this uh section if you are

joining us on the YouTube platform

please note you will not be able to ask

a question because comments will be

disabled and now for my uh last point of

opening uh I want to introduce our

moderator today Professor Steve

zipperstein uh he is the newly uh

usually appointed associate

director of our effort uh and uh he will

be working uh with me with a wide

variety of uh uh new programs and

efforts of the UCLA Center for Middle

East development which makes it possible

uh whenever we have this kind of

addition uh I will take a deep breath

Professor zipperstein is a former US

Federal prosecutor and the former Chief

legal officer of Verizon Wireless and

blackberry LTD

is the author of the legal case for

Palestine a critical assessment which is

forthcoming from uh rigin this year I

think it's closer than that uh Zionism

Palestinian nationalism and the law 1939

to 1948 a also rage in 2022 and law and

the Arab Israeli conflict the trials of

Palestine rage

2020 and so ladies and gentlemen Steve

ziin thank you so much Professor Spiegel

pleasure to be with all of you thank you

all for joining us for what I promise

will be a very interesting webinar with

two fantastic speakers joining us here's

what we're going to do I'm going to

introduce both both speakers then I will

ask each of them to speak uh in the form

of opening comments for roughly seven

minutes each as they are speaking please

be thinking of questions that you would

like me to ask them

on your behalf as Professor Spiegel said

please type those questions into the Q&A

box at the bottom of your Zoom screen I

want to get as many of your questions in

as possible we'll go for about an hour

and a half or so and and see where it

takes us so uh without further Ado let

me introduce both speakers uh as Steve

Spiegel said uh very very uh privileged

to be joined this evening by Dr Nimrod

novic who stepped in at the last minute

thank you so much Dr novic Dr novic is

former senior policy advisor to prime

minister Shimon Perez special Ambassador

and adviser to the National Security

Council of Israel he's also a member of

a very important or a very important

organization called commanders for

Israel's security an organization of

about 550 former IDF generals as well as

mosad Shin betet police National

Security Council and Foreign Service

equivalents Dr novic also serves as the

Israel fellow of the Israel policy Forum

a bipartisan American Jewish

organization active in Washington DC he

has worked as past chair and is the

current senior fellow at the economic

cooperation Foundation an NGO that

launched the Oslo process and has ever

since been involved in All Phases of the

Israeli Palestinian negotiations Dr

novic also has extensive experience in

back channnel diplomacy employing a wide

network of security and diplomatic

contacts in the region and Beyond we're

also very very honored this afternoon to

be joined by Sam Abdul razak s sini who

is Chairman of the Jerusalem Development

Fund and a fatak political activist from

Jerusalem he is an opponent of

Palestinian Authority president Mahmud

Abbas uh indicated most notably in a

recent article in the New York Times in

oped authored by suir entitled quote

Mahmud abas must go Samir belongs to a

young Palestinian leadership uh

generation believing in the need to

focus on intensive dialogue and bridge

building with Israelis and to that end

he's invested extensive time in

discussions with Israelis from all walks

of a political life left Cent Center and

right he is the most invited Palestinian

to appear on Israeli television and

Israeli media recently Channel 13 and

Israel interviewed some together with

former prime minister Barack uh with

Former Defense Minister boji ayone and

with us former Envoy Dennis Ross on

questions regarding what will happen in

Gaza the day after the war so Samir I'm

going to start with you the floor is

yours for seven minutes thank you so

much for being with us everyone please

questions well thank you very much

Professor Steve bin and I have the honor

to be here I would like to thank also uh

professor swel and the team of the

center for the Middle East development

usla for organizing this

event uh I will start

by briefly introducing myself uh um I am

a

mainstream

Palestinian uh political activist I

started my political life very early at

the age of 14 as a kid of of the anti

father who was throwing stones at that

time spent 5 years in Israeli jails and

that's where I learned my Hebrew and I

think it was very

useful my Hebrew skills has allowed me

to communicate in a very easy way to

most of the Israelis that I know and

when I was released it was also

agreement the doors were open when I was

out for more communication with the

Israeli side I was elected as the

international secretary for fat Youth

and there we started talking to the

labor youth the party of the late uh

prime minister Rabin 96 when there was a

change in power we continue talking to

Theus and I contined this habit until

today so investing

around

33 years of my life into talking to the

Israelis I think it was the best

investment that I have done in my life

and it is a learning

care it allows you to start

understanding the conflict

from the eyes of the other

side

and taking this experience is very

important to start trying to find ways

out of this

conflict and uh I believe it applies

also to the other side when Israelis

start looking at this conflict from the

eyes of Palestinians it will help a lot

understanding better this

conflict uh I believe that any political

road that might lead to political

Horizons for us as Palestinians will not

pass through Washington DC or London or

Paris or Berlin or Cairo it passes only

through Tel Aviv we Palestinians we will

be capable and able to find out a way

that will lead to a progress politically

open political Horizons only when we are

able to touch the minds and the hearts

of the Israelis I discovered through

this long process of talking to the

other side that we are not necessar the

problem to each other I think we are

certainly the solution to each other if

we look deep into the roots of this

conflict we can see

that if we don't discuss the solid

issues of the conflict we always focus

on this conflict by discussing borders

Jerusalem refugees security issues if we

go and look at the nonsolid issues of

this conflict in particular for example

the

narratives as far as we have two

narratives that are fighting each others

it will be very difficult for

Palestinians and Israelis to find out a

way but if we look at both narratives I

think with minor modifications on the

two narratives we can have a joint

narrative for both Israelis and

Palestinians and that's where we will be

able to find Easy Way easy solutions to

the solid

issues for us as Palestinians we

need to be

confident in announcing that Jews have

historical rights in

Palestine or you can call it Israel the

whole

land Hebron nais the

laiv but we need to remind the

Israelis

that they have never been alone here

there was always others and these others

are

us if we had this common history

together we should be able to find a

common future

together and even I don't agree with the

Zionism version of of the narrative that

Jews has left the land waited for

thousands of years and they came back my

grandfather told me stories about his

Jewish partner in a small shop of cloths

in the old cities early uh last

century and this is an example that

there has been always continuously Jews

in this land maybe sometimes they were

majority sometimes they were minority

but their relation did not disconnect

from the land the same our relation to

this land has never

disconnected the main challenges the

main enemies for Israelis and

Palestinians is ignorance unfortunately

we don't know each others very

well hatred incitement are two other men

enemies that

these three enemies together should be

fought and it needs a lot of leadership

and wisdom something that maybe both

Palestinians and Israelis currently lack

maybe for us as Palestinians we couldn't

find leadership in the last 100 years

you can imagine

that 100 years ago we have been together

with the Israelis group of militias

fighting each other and fighting the

British mandate to today Israel became

OED country with a lot of achievements

and we have

stayed as Palestinians as group of

militias unfortunately until now and if

if you ask me why I'll tell you lack of

leadership we have had three leaders in

years the MU husseini thenat and then

Abbas three leaders in 100 years none of

them left us with REM remarkable

achievements

so lack of leadership from the

Palestinian side is is is very

important I spent these years into

talking to all Israelis in left in

Center in right and I joke sometimes

with the Israelis and I tell them I know

you better than you know yourselves

because I talk to all of you and you

don't talk to each other so when some of

my friends see me going to the studios

of Channel 14 they get crazy and they

asked me how can you go

there I definitely need to talk to the

right and to the extreme right in Israel

it's a constituency big enough that we

cannot neglect we need to talk we need

to communicate and we need to convince

and when my right-wing Israelis see me

in Channel 11 or 13 also they tell me

why do you go there they are becoming

part of the museum they are irrelevant

now every Israeli is important for us

and we need to communicate with

everybody we need to communicate with

the Israeli through media in Academia

with the political Elite we need to talk

to everybody and each time I talk to

Israeli I discover that the current

political Elite in Israel they have

almost never contacted or discussed

politics with Palestinians including

ministers into this government so

changes starts with dialogue with

communication with changing the

narrative we Palestinians need to adapt

to a strategy that puts at its bases out

of national interest Palestinian

national interest the security Israeli

needs and Israelis need to adapt to a

strategy that puts at the basis of it

out of Israeli own interest the

Palestinian Prosperity progress National

aspiration and from there these two

strategies needs to work and and

compliment each other they will help to

achieve the Israeli security needs and

the Palestinian national aspiration

needs there is a way if we start working

together we can be there and in no time

I can tell you something about the

Palestinian people regardless all the

polls that you keep reading about the

Palestinian people is a very moderate

people and they we can change the public

opinion very quickly me myself when I

was in jail I started my political life

believing that I need to flee Palestine

from The River To The Sea and then in 88

when President Arafat announced the

Declaration of Independence saying that

our Target is a state on the borders of

67 we have celebrated this shifted

automatically and when I went out in the

93 he himself Arafat signed autonomy

agreement in Gaza and Jericho for this

also we were very happy and shifted and

signed in a real Palestinian leadership

can shift the public opinion towards

moderation towards bramis towards

accepting dialogue and

coexistence so the immediate challenge

of the Palestinian people is changing

leadership this is the challenge that is

facing up we need to have abas lead the

political scene allow

younger political leaders to assume

power change the Palestinian Society

into more democratic change the

leadership into a transparent and

accountable leadership engaging with the

Israelis working with the Israelis not

against the Israelis similar changes are

expected to happen on the Israeli side

that's where when Israelis and

Palestinians can start working to the

together and that's where in no time we

can find a way out of this conflict okay

that was incredible I didn't cut you at

seven minutes because your remarks were

so profoundly

important um and I think that your

comment at the end about the need for

leadership changes on both sides is a

great segue to NR noic and so I'm going

to turn the floor over to you and I'll

give you 10 minutes the same amount of

time that suir just took please 10

minutes thank you very much and thank

you for having me and uh I wish if he's

watching full and speedy

recovery um I feel almost

uncomfortable um shifting from the

compelling Vision uh that Sumer

presented which I share

wholeheartedly uh to the harsh reality

uh of where we are at the moment before

we have the two respective changes of

leadership uh that he and I uh uh

aspired to

see um and I'd like to start with a

comment uh to the audience from 30

different parts of the globe that are

with us now uh by saying that there is a

basic

disconnect between what you see and what

you uh uh think of what's going on in

Gaza and what we

Israelis um

experience complete

disconnect um I will not describe what

uh what you see and what you think you

know better than I but I will describe

very briefly uh what's going on in

Israel here uh we are not on the day

202 from October

7 we are

mentally uh in October 8th

um we're not in a post

traumatic uh what's the term for it

syndrome uh we are still in the in the

trauma uh

itself uh this is the result of the fact

that

1333 of our citizens are still uh in the

tunnels in Gaza uh this is because we on

a daily basis almost hourly basis um are

exposed to the story of the victims of

Hamas brutality of October 7th uh the

heroic uh the heroism of individuals who

came to the rescue the trauma from the

failure of the Israeli Defense Forces to

anticipate and address uh the assault um

and the far more profound failure of our

political leadership whose wrong

strategy of over a decade

um of strengthening Hamas in Gaza and

weakening the Palestinian Authority on

the West Bank has brought us to this

point and today uh when we are uh in in

month seven of the War uh that most

Israelis is not anticipated will last

more than

weeks um we look around and none of the

objectives set for for it have been

fully

accomplished um the IDF has performed as

well as any army worldwide under

circumstances that are

unprecedented uh people compare it to

what the US forces faced uh in certain

places in Iraq in

Afghanistan uh but even the American

generals who were there um confess that

this is far more complicated and

challenging uh given the uh

circumstances in

Gaza uh so the ibf the ipf can perform

as well as any

army uh but as the saying in the Navy

goes uh if you don't know where you're

going no wind will get you

there and uh the government and here is

the almost a mirror image of what summer

was talking about the Palestinian side

uh the government not only failed us PRI

to October 7th and not only failed the

victims since October 7th has failed to

articulate serious objectives for the

war what we hear are empty

slogans such as total Victory and

Destroy

Hamas um which cannot be

translated into any political outcome

that the IDF is supposed to uh prepare

the ground

for and if that's not bad enough then

suddenly those who had not realized it

from the

outset now

recognize that we are

stuck we are stuck in

Gaza and we are

facing a stark

choice between two

options and you know

sometimes a cliche

is not an empty simplification of

reality but

truth I've been around long

enough um Samir started at

14 I started at a later age at

21 but since I'm older I've been in this

business

longer um I don't remember a moment

where Israel faced a more faithful

choice

between two

options one

option which I'm afraid we're are

sliding

towards is an

open-ended ever

conflicted

open uh ended occupation of the Gaza

Strip which if

materializes is not only does not only

sentence gazin and his Israelis to

further

misery but is likely to affect Dynamics

on the West Bank as

well and if that

continues we may see gike situation on

the West Bank as

well and with that

happening the peace

countries near and far the original one

Egypt and Jordan and the new

newcomers the UAE Bahrain

Morocco uh distancing themselves

normalization with Saudi Arabia will go

into the file of missed

opportunities and we will be even more

isolated

worldwide that is one course the other

one has been suggested by President

Biden on behalf of a group of Arab

countries likeminded

that are offering us an unprecedented

historic

opportunity they offer us three win

situation win number one is to help

extract ourselves out of Gaza and

replace Us by their own

management interim

management the second win is to offer

Palestinians an alternative to the

brutal Hamas

ideology by a political Horizon that

leads to exactly the same the place

where Samir is dreaming

about and the third one is integrating

Israel into a origional

coalition that contributes to the

prosperity of

all and is designed also to check

Iranian meddling as well as its

proxies however this second option the

very attractive one has two

prerequisites one is for Israel to

accept a role for the Palestinian

Authority in Gaza as well that's the

insistence of those who are willing to

come to the rescue basically what our

countries are telling us is that they

are willing to come but not as

occupiers but as somebody invit Ed by

the legitimate representative of the

Palestinian

people the Palestinian Authority and the

PLO the second prerequisite is those

same Arab countries are not willing to

see and other donors from the West are

not what are not willing to see their

contribution to R to Gaza

Rehabilitation and development go up in

flames in the next round of Israeli

Palestinian Israeli Gaza Israeli H uh

war and in order to try and secure that

nothing is guaranteed but in order to

try and secure that you need to see what

is now called a credible

irreversible time bound path to the

two-state

solution

alas here we come to Summer's uh uh

Point as it applies to us our current

leadership will not hear of these two

conditions our current leadership is

still under the illusion or at least it

says so that those Arab and Western

donors will come anyway even if Israel

rejects the role for the Palestinian

Authority in Gaza and reject the idea of

a two-state solution at the end of the

road which is not going to

happen we're I would say the Gaza today

is stuck in

Jerusalem and until we're going to have

a major change of

policy which is likely requiring a major

change of

government we are

sliding into their

abast okay thank you NR so we had very

very I would say

um wonderfully thoughtful

vision from some era of what could be NE

Ro focused on some of the harsh

realities that we're confronting and

this really leads to uh the first round

of questions and I hope that all of you

in the audience are inspired now to ask

a lot of questions we have some already

uh the first is from me since I'm the

moderator I'm going to use the privilege

of the microphone to ask the first

question but I'm going to ask that my

question along with two others at the

same time and both of you I'll give some

time five minutes seven minutes whatever

you need to address these questions

however you want to my question relates

uh to the title of the webinar and some

are you already addressed this very

eloquently the title of this webinar is

what is possible when Israelis and

Palestinians work together and my

question is are we assuming too much

with that title

maybe we should be asking in light of

what has happened on October the 7th and

ever since leading up to where we are

right now

can Israelis and Palestinians work

together in the current environment so

that's the first question from me the

second question is from um Mr Mayer from

the United States who is asking Samir to

go into a little bit more detail about

the disconnect in the polling data from

the West Bank showing enormous support

for Hamas and the comment that you

mentioned that leadership new leadership

can uh take that apparent public opinion

if it's accurate if the polls are

accurate and maybe take it into a

different direction is that possible if

you could just give us some more detail

on that because Mr Mayor is is concerned

polls are saying one thing you seem to

be saying something else so how do we

reconcile that and then uh the third in

this series questions is from my

wonderful colleague at UCLA brilliant

scholar Warren famy who asks on the

ground level what are the possible

avenues for building positive peopt

people relations between Israelis and

Palestinians how do we build trust on

the ground on the ground given the

current War how long do you both feel it

will take to mend fences among the

general populace the general population

on both sides so sumir I'll turn it over

to you you can address one or all three

of them or whatever you'd like to

do well I hope seven minutes will be

okay but I will try my

best well I would like to start by

saying

that I know that the Israelis we knew

before the 7th of October are not the

Israelis we have known the shock the

trauma of 7th of October was huge and we

should realize this but yet resulting to

the slogan of War of no

choice wasn't really

the wise option even with all the pain

all all with all the atrocities that

have been done on the 7th of October and

I myself I was maybe

the only Palestinians that had the

condolences visit to the envelope of

Gaza I condemn this and I think what has

happened there cannot represent the

Palestinians but yet I think if we had

had very wise leaders on both

sides they would have turned to a slogan

of Peace of no choice we have resulted

to war and violence both sides

for the last 75 years and it did not

help we've tried once the oso agreement

and it did not succeed and we give up

then we said it doesn't work but we

tried every year every month every day

security tactics military options

violence we reached to a level that both

sides started believing that everything

is permissible to be done on the other

side and unfortunately we crossed a lot

of moral red lines in in this conflict

and on the 7th of October we could have

thought in the direction of Peace of no

choice but we are where we are now yet

when this war

ends Palestinians and Israelis will go

back to reality we will continue to live

and exist together on this land 7

million Jews 7 million Palestinians and

we will discover that we have no other

choice but to find a way of goist this

with the heavy price that everybody is

paying now and it is very happy price

and I trained

myself to not have hard feelings with

Israelis despite all the very difficult

images that goes out of gansa because at

the same time we are also causing Herm

and when I say we it doesn't mean myself

but we as Palestinians collectively

whatever is has happened on the 7th of

October is also in a moral legal and

political responsibility of any

Palestinians and whatever is happening

in Gaza now also should be of a moral

legal and political responsibility of

every Israelis we need to decide how to

look at it when when the war ends but we

will have no other choice but to work

together away out for the

polls and to work the way out I

think we should not limit Our intention

to remove Hamas only from the political

scene I think three people there is a

triangle of three sides if any of of

them if we are stuck with any of them we

will not be able to move ahead it's

Hamas abas and and I think I will allow

myself also to say the current prime

minister in Israel if we are stuck off

with any of them we will not be able to

move alone if we need Hamas if we need

Gaza without Hamas we need to start

having the West Bank without

abas without this we cannot unlock the

current situation we will not be able to

provide the Israelis with security

Arrangements

that will convince them to withdraw from

Gaza security Arrangements means

somebody need to come and fill the

vacuum of of of

Hamas Abbas will not be able to enter

Gaza because Gaza is more hostile to

abasan it is hostile to Israel

unfortunately 90% of the Palestinians

are requesting this person to leave the

political

scene we are fed up of two things most

of the Palestinians and I will connect

this to the

polls Palestinians are fed up from the

corruption that Abbas has brought upon

them in the West Bank and they are fed

up from the dis destruction that Hamas

has brought upon them in Gaza most of

the Palestinians would like to see a way

where a Palestinian leadership will

provide them with a path of construction

of Hope currently every Palestinian

wakes up in the morning and he's

confident that today will be worse than

yesterday if this feeling change into

optimistic one a feeling of believing

that today is going to be better than

yesterday the whole Dynamics will

change I I am not a fan of Paul's during

times of tragedy I don't want to test

the feelings of Israelis today and I

don't want anybody to test the feelings

of Palestinians today especially when

the questions in the polls are tricky

when you come and ask question to a

Palestinian do you

support the 7th of October it is

interpreted for most of the

Palestinians are you

supporting the war on the Palestinians

on Gaza or the opposite of it but if you

ask the Palestinian do you support

killing civilians kidnapping babies and

wom and elderly people to Gaza 90% of

the Palestinians will tell you no if you

ask the

Palestinians do you prefer a war a

continuous military and violent

engagement with Israelis or a path of

peace and progress where the Israelis

are committed to changing the life of

the Palestinians and opening Horizons to

a political solution they will choose

the letter so in a way

the polls are not accurate we are

testing the feelings of the people

during a time that they have a cocktail

of feelings anger revenge is there

hatred is there pain is there grief is

there on both sides and it's it's

legitimate seeing 1,200 bodies in one

day is very harsh for the Israelis and

seeing the images that are going from

Gaza is very hard for the Palestinians

so

I think if a Palestinian leadership

comes and offers the

Palestinians a pragmatic way to change

their lives they will all sign in but we

cannot do it alone Hamas didn't need a

partner from inside Israel to implement

their strategies we the Democratic

Progressive

moderate who believe in coexistence with

Israel we need a partner and and I think

also those who believe in the option of

solving politically diplomatically the

conflict inside Israel also they need a

real partner from the Palestinian

side the raise of one side if one

leadership from one side will become so

confident and working hard towards a

diplomatic option

sincerely then it will have impact on

the other side that's why

changing Abbas removing Abbas from the

political reality of the Palestinians

will help in creating some strong impact

and I can see from my own dialogue from

my own connections and I will link this

to the People to People

issue I believe since we don't have a

lot of time maybe the Israelis have the

leverage of waiting another 20 30 40

years until having the conditions ready

for a political Solutions we don't have

this privilege there is an issue of

urgency on the Palestinian side I am

a 52 years old until now I am not a

citizen of any state I cannot be a

citizen of Israel I don't have a

Palestinian state to be a citizen the

lack of citizenship is something that we

cannot survive with the LW so I I

believe that a conciliation

Reconciliation process trust building

process should be implemented top bottom

we should now create immediately ties

and connections between the future

political Elite in Palestine the shadow

leadership and the future political

Elite in Israel or the current ones I

think we are able to work with any

leader that might replace Netanyahu

is laid gun Eisen cot Benet

yosan you name it left center right we

know these people we are able to work

with them we are capable to work with

them we need to create more bridges

between the elites and then take this

process down the reconciliation the

trust should be built up and we take it

down and I think both Israelis and

Palestinians will sign into this process

if we start dealing with two important

issues first we need to revise our

education system on both sides we need

to eliminate all kinds of incitement and

hatred maybe we have this problem more

obvious on the Palestinian side less

obvious in the Israeli side but it

exists on both sides maybe it is in the

textbook on the Palestinian side but it

is on

the climate on the discussion of the

classrooms in the Israeli side and then

the media we should change the media the

media now in Israel and Palestine only

talks about the bad issues of the other

side we should starting talking about

the good issues on the other side with

these tools we will be able to change

the public opinion very

quickly okay wow again thank you uh

brilliant

analysis a lot for us to think about I'm

seeing some more questions come in and

anima before I turn it to you I hope you

don't mind but I'm going to add one

question that just came in that is quite

interesting and I think that it is

directed more at you although some feel

free on your next round to address this

as well this is from Anor in Canada and

she's asking or she writes the following

the dream of working together seems

impossible under the profoundly

self-serving leadership of the current

Israeli government and an is asking why

is Netanyahu still in office why do

Israelis who disapprove of him take no

decisive action to remove him so I'll

add that to the first three questions NE

Ro the floor is

yours thank you very much um to the

question of whether Israelis and

Palestinians can

cooperate um if those pictures behind me

uh over my shoulder are they are too

small for you to see and I hope summer

doesn't hold it against me uh these are

pictures of Abu Mazen and Muhammad dlan

and Hassan asur

and uh

saat God bless his soul at the uh dinner

in my

home um during the Heyday of the Oslo

process um we were working together even

to the point of jointly

conspiring how to

maneuver arat on the one hand and our

prime minister on the

other

um I believe that uh the Palestinian

leadership of the time was quite

different from the one that summer would

like to see gone

today uh because I think that Abu maadan

himself has underwent drastic changes

over the decades something there's

something to be said for term

limits on both sides and which brings me

to the last question of why is B still

in office uh after more than 15 years uh

serving as prime minister even no

consecutive I'd like to say a word on on

polls before I come to that because I

want to take a ride on Mr mayor's uh

question um and just one line on the

Palestinian side and two on ours on the

Palestinian side I would say that at the

time that the Palestinian Authority was

functioning properly under the

leadership of uh finance minister and

then prime minister Salam

fayad Palestinian public held it in high

regard at the time that there was a

dynamic peace process Hamas was not

popular the PA

was when you take the two

together and both are gone proper

governance is gone and peace process is

gone it's no wonder that

Palestinian Vote or Express them s in

support of whoever fights against the

occupation

conveniently they deny the atrocities

happen and I see that as a positive

atrocity but they like the idea that

somebody is trying to do something about

occupation we're not going to forget the

atrocities but politically analytically

speaking that's an interesting point on

the Israeli side I say that the most

striking development in the PO to

me and is totally counter Logic for

me is that a slice of the pie of Israeli

body politic that I call the

lunatics which is the combination of the

Messianic

annexationist the Jewish supremacist

all the extreme right and their lunatic

agenda has not expended a bit since

October

7 I must confess that I had expected a

completely different picture with

Israelis on mass sliding in the

direction of forget it let's Annex it

let's expel them Let's do an ethnic

cleansing which is the agenda of the

extreme right it has not gained 1% in

the poll as compared to October

6 what did happen to the

pragmatists those who supported either

two-state solution or the slower

approach which is commonly called

separation gradual

separation they did not move to the

other side of the annexation is they

moved to the don't

know which Al Al makes a lot of sense

when you are frightened when you are

angry when you feel betrayed by your own

government when you're

confused you still don't lose the basic

Foundation of your

realization that these two peoples one

day will have to separate lest we bleed

each other until we do come to our

senses

um as to

corporation uh look I'm uh I'm

prejudiced um having served for about a

decade in the prime minister's office

and having walked those corridors

since I believe more in

leadership as triggering a

change uh than bottom up I may be wrong

it may be my personal

predisposition

bias but I look back just like simmer

mentioned uh the change in Palestinian

public opinion overnight when leadership

changed position from one state to the

riv of the sea to two State solution

same happened here two weeks before

President Sarat arrived in

Jerusalem the majority of Israelis were

opposed vehemently to giving up the

Sinai in return for a peace treaty two

weeks later it was a flip side of that

majority supported uh a deal with Egypt

so yeah the West Bank is different than

Egypt and everything is different and

everything is different and yet so much

is the same in terms of human nature as

Netanyahu well on the one hand I'm proud

of our democratic system uh that we we

do not except for

once tragically for some and for me and

for all of us when our prime minister

was replaced by a bullet rather than the

ballot

Rin uh other than that we do that in a

in a democratic way I believe that the

forces of

change uh are there that the process may

take may take

a little longer than we wish but the

scenarios by which this government is

gone and this prime minister and it his

last

tenure uh there are about half a dozen

scenarios of how it might come about I

will not belabor it it has to do with

the indor secrecies of the Israel

complicated political system uh but but

I believe that uh that this government

is done the only question is how fast

it's going to happen and how much damage

does okay um very

interesting ending comment from Nimrod

we hope this um government does

not does not inflict irreparable damage

uh and I'll just I I will keep the rest

of my opinion out of it because we have

more questions we have some terrific

questions uh the first is from uh Karen

horn from the University of

Massachusetts USA obviously and she

would like to hear from both of you

there's an organization called a land

for

all um which um is putting forth the

notion of uh two states but sharing the

land land sharing sovereignty sharing

Jerusalem kind of a shared

concept

um um and in

the prior years we had proponents of

this

um um we had um the uh what minority

plan from

unscop and we had in the 1920s the

breach shalom karski and um we had U

other similar proponents of this kind of

notion in from the 1920s

1930s uh and 1940s UDA Magnus proposed

this in his testimony to the Anglo

American Committee in

1946 for example so wondering what you

think about that and then we have a

question about the Israeli economy which

I would ask both of you um to uh

address uh um and this is from Nancy

Kaplan who lives in Michigan

USA and she indicates the the Israeli

economy is in not such great shape right

now we've had downgrades from the credit

rating agencies and so forth and she's

taking an interesting angle here she's

asking uh if um the current government

doesn't take steps to improve the

economy and it doesn't seem like they

are uh she says what if hrup gets in

involved at the behest of the

protesters who were coming to kapan

every Saturday night might this have an

impact on bringing down the Coalition or

perhaps convincing enough leud ministers

to defect um so I will ask both of you

to think about that um

and uh I have one additional question

from

myself

Samir talked about Oslo nimro talked

about Oslo

the uh I went back and

reread the

Accords uh recently in connection with

the different project I'm working on and

I was just so struck by exchange of

letters between Robin and Arafat 9

September

1993 the Declaration of principles four

days later the interim agreement in 1995

Samir mentioned the gods of Jericho

agreement the

uh uh Mahmud Abbas was the chief

negotiator at least for the dop he wrote

a book about it he talked in the book in

1997 about how

intensively both sides

negotiated and yet we're sitting here um

unfortunately 31 years

later declaring the Oslo Accords a dead

letter even though neither side is

formally revoked or ended and so what

lessons do we take from Oslo what

lessons do we take from Oslo as we think

about the future possibilities of

Israelis and Palestinians working

together so that's our next round of

questions uh Su back to you um take as

long as you'd like to answer one or more

of the questions and then nro I'll come

back to you maybe we'll have time for

one more round we'll see how it goes

some over to you

please what I think the men Len

that we can't take from Oso is that if

we don't have a political process that

comes out of a

democratic steps internally inside the

Palestinian uh Society it it will lead

to a lot of

problems and this bring us to the

question that I couldn't answer uh toout

the the first round of questions

why is is still Netanyahu there for me

Netanyahu and Abbas

are direct reasons that led us to the

7th of

October for Abbas canceling the

elections the Palestinian general

2021 he

has prevented a democratic change of

leadership had we had the elections of

202 21 we could have a different kind of

leadership a different kind of

regimes governing the West Bank and Gaza

and this could have been enough to

prevent the 7th of October without the

poison money from Qatar that Netanyahu

allowed to go smoothly to

Hamas we could have prevented this EV of

October both of them are directly

involved on the thousands of lives that

we have lost on both sides of of of of

the borders of

Gaza

and we breath some fresh air when

President Biden in in November has

emphasized the importance of

revitalizing the

PA we we we we had a lot of Hope but

unfortunately this hope turned into

disappointment when the silly cosmetic

steps taken by President Abbas in

appointing a new prime minister were

accepted by the American and Biden

Administration I would like here to give

two metaphorical images on how I see the

situation why Abbas is the most

important issue now for us as

Palestinians and why the step of

changing a prime minister with another

he he fired Muhammad and appointed

another

Muhammad he fired a Muhammad that was a

better Diplomat and less corrupt and

appointed Muhammad Mustafa that is less

Diplomat and worse corrupt person even

he does not live physically in the west

mammad Mustafa lives with his family in

Jordan he comes Sunday morning and

leaves Thursday

afternoon physically he does not live

here it's

like you have a very beautiful woman

that was hit by a car she's bleeding in

the street and instead of calling the

ambulance to rescue her to take her to

the hospital you are calling

the makeup stylist to come and fix her

ha makeup Palestinians don't need

cosmetics they need change in

leadership they need a Democratic

Leadership transparent

accountable if a leadership fails to

respect internally the rights of its

people how can they represent these

rights in front of the other it doesn't

work and I explained to my Palestinian

colleagues why changing abas is a

priority even to the issue of handling

the the the conflict with Israel and I

give another

metaphorical image if if somebody that

has a problem with you comes and put

your own house on

fire and your own family your kids are

trapped in the fire inside your home and

you bring a pipe of water and try to put

down the fire and then your own father

comes and closes the water who is your

real Challenge and enemy at that moment

it's not the one who burned your house

it's your own father that is preventing

the water that can save your your family

that's what Abbas is is is doing he's

blocking all the roads and this is

leaving us in the continuous circle of

of

uncertainty

so we we we don't have unfortunately the

the same tools that the Israeli is have

if the his decides to strike and they

have done it March

2023 after the firing of of of

Galant Netanyahu

bent he couldn't resisted we don't have

these tools Abbas is controlling

everything and unfortunately currently

he's so much

protected by the

security services in Israel and the CIA

in in the USA both believe mistakenly

that he is the pillar for the security

stability in the West Bank and I wonder

where is the security stability in the

West Bank he hardly controls the center

of of three cities ramala betlehem and

Jericho nothing else he's a ticking bomb

C situation he's not a pillar of any

security and the only way to have this

change is to convince the whole

International Community especially the

American Administration and the Israeli

security apparatus that he is not an

asset he's a burden and they should

allow a

change um I did want to ask though Samar

did you want to address the um um the

the first question about a land for all

or would you rather if you could just

talk about that that for a minute or two

and then I'll turn it over to Nimrod

please okay well first I would like to

comment on the pictures that you that

Nimrod has in his house I think I

discovered now that we have common

friends like Muhammad dlan Muhammad dlan

is an amazing Palestinian leader I think

he's the one that now everybody is

expecting to do the change on the

Palestinian side and I think he is also

a one that can Le connect all the all

the dotts especially if we are the only

way to be able to find a way out for the

Israeli Army from Gaza is to bring the

Saudis and try to talk about very

concrete security Regional Arrangements

where Arabs are responsible and

guaranteeing any kind of

healthy and friendly relation between

the new Gaza and and and Israel we don't

need only to revitalize the PA we need

to revitalize the fat we need to

revitalize the Palestinian and the

Palestinian Society this is the way that

we can achieve the change that we are

looking for for for the land for all it

I I know about this U initiatives for me

I think

Palestinians are open to any kind of

land for all one state two State 20

States we leave this for the Israelis

let the Israelis negotiate among

themselves which path they prefer for us

we don't want the current situation of a

two floor state to

continue one floor for a noble floor for

the Masters and the other floor is for

servants this situation should end and

there is a matter of

urgency so one 2 20 land for all

whatever I think it's not smart that we

continue alone each side

thinking about options it's better that

we come together the political Elites

should come together in one room and

start discussing what can be the

choices that can have

51% of Palestinians and Israelis

supported it's very complicated we might

not be able now to have a situation

where most of Israelis will welcome I

think from my knowledge on the Israeli

side there is a very big block inside

Israel which is Center left that

believes Israelis should SE be separated

from Palestinians but they are not

confident that this separation and

creating a Palestinian state or a

Palestinian entity will not end by

having another terrorist state that is

having a a security threat towards

Israel so they prefer to leave this

issue for another 34 years until they

are more confident the other block which

is center right or a little bit more to

the right would prefer to Annex to

forget about

Gaza and Annex the West Bank or most of

the West Bank but they are not confident

that the Americans were supported now so

they prefer to postpone this another 30

40

years I'm not

sure what can be acceptable to the

Israelis now but I am sure that if we

start working together we will be able

to find a way

that will satisfy both Israelis and

Palestinians and there are plenty of

ways without going into the details the

political will and the political

atmosphere the the climate we need to

create the climate that allows the

Palestinians and Israelis to accept some

kind of arrangements we are lacking this

it needs leadership this is the the

first step that we should achieve create

the political Elite on both sides that

are willing to put an end to this

conflict thank you um and thanks for

addressing that uh NE wrot over to you

we have about 20 minutes left we do have

a few more questions that came in um so

uh if you could go for maybe no more

than 10 minutes then I'll quickly cover

those last couple questions give each of

you five minutes to cover that and then

we'll come to the end so Nimrod the

floor is yours thanks um in the order of

their presentation to Karen's question

regarding lent for for all um I'm in

favor of any formula uh that will be

accepted by the two peoples but I don't

believe and and a second uh qualifier uh

no uh agreement between Israelis and

Palestinians uh will be um um will

trigger a strict

separation um cutting off all

communication contact interaction

between the two people that's just not

going to happen it's not realistic in

terms of uh human relations as well as

in terms of

infrastructure environment water

whatever what what have you uh the two

assuming we get to the point that we

have a two-state solution uh the two

states uh will have a a a rich web of

cooporation uh however I do believe that

it is far more realistic to expect

Israelis to endorse at the outset uh a

very clear division of the

land what Barak used to call we are here

they are there because of the very

reasons that Samir mentioned which is

fear and concerns and uncertainty about

the future so the combination of robust

security arrangements to which the

Palestinians have long

agreed um with uh the the the the clear

boundary and uh and and Border regime uh

between the two countries I think will

be something that Israelis will insist

upon in order to support the concept

uh to Nancy U you almost read my mind um

yeah um the one of the scenarios that I

did not spell out uh is indeed that the

moment comes when Israel is

internalized that the

purposeful phase of the war is

over and we are stuck in a open-ended

attrition war and that will be the

moment that Israelis will be less

reluctant to to go to the

street today there is still a reluctance

our children are fighting in Gaza and in

the north it's not legitimate and

therefore the protest is

substantial but not nothing close to

what we saw last year when we had an

explosion of pro democ democracy energy

in protecting our Democratic

institutions against the government ass

so um I

assume that the

cumulative anger sense of

betrayal um and the and the

conviction that those responsible must

go uh will bring about a similar

explosion of democratic energy in the

streets and I think that the hist will

join uh and that will bring the economy

to a Hal and no government will be able

to sustain an early elections will be

called for that's probably the most

likely scenario even though there are

others as

well and now to Steve's question uh

about the lessons of of

Oslo um I would say that U my primary

lessons and and you know Oslo was

launched by the NGO that you mentioned

that I've been the chairman and now

senior associate

ECF uh under the leadership of Yi baing

at the time and still um and uh there

were two mistakes built into to the

agreement one was that the end game was

not

defined nowhere does it say that it

should lead to a two-state solution that

was I think a very big mistake and

two um the issue of

settlements was not insisted upon by the

Palestinian and I regret that very very

much because nothing presents a greater

impediment to a future agreement than

the uh expansion of

settlements um but there was a third

element and here is a story that is not

well known uh shortly after Oslo um when

we saw that there was

no reaction of the kind that we feared

that streets will go up in Fire and that

the country will just go crazy I mean

how dare you recognize the PLO that

bunch of uh of terrorists and so

on um and we saw that it didn't happen

yeah there was some protest but it was

really contained and limited and and and

legitimate um we went to uh to the prime

minister to to um Rabin and we said why

don't you uh Yosi bin went to him um and

said why don't you give me a mandate to

negotiate a permanent framework for

permanent agreement now not in five

years from now but now let let let let's

let's

exploit the

effect of Hope for the

majority and shock for the extreme

minority and let's take it all the way

and Rabin was not willing to do it now

as we did as Yosi did with Oslo so he

did with the permanent status without

permission and without

Authority um he uh started a negotiation

of a of a framework agreement for for

for permanent stat for permanent

status um I was privileged to be on the

team that negotiated Abu maazin was on

the other side of course like in Osa and

you see on our side uh small team

negotiated and we reached a framework

agreement uh the framework agreement now

known as the B

abuin document or whatever footnote to

history for one small

tragedy Yosi was supposed to present it

toin on the Sunday after the Saturday

where he was assassinated

yeah what if yeah yeah okay we have a

really interesting question all the

questions are great by the way and I

want to thank the audience profoundly

for your wonderful and thoughtful

questions here is a question from

Muhammad schani from

Jordan this is very interesting he's

asking both of

you what advice would both of you give

countries and even to the superpowers in

world who want to be part of the

solution rather than the problem what

advice would you give them what do you

need from them what can they do to help

both of you and we have a few other

questions that are also very important

but for lack of time I think we'll defer

those questions I think Mr shani's

question is so important I'd like to

just put that as the last one to both of

you five minutes each please and then

we'll hand over to Professor Spiegel to

wrap

up uh and let me start uh somewh with

you and then nro will or nro would you

like to go first go ahead then we'll

yeah I'm eager I'm eager to respond to

general sm's question and good to hear

from you

General um and I'll be very specific I

think General span was was looking for

something broader but I'm going to be

very specific

I think Israelis are not aware of the

fact that the reason that that um the

the the

offer of the

region under the leadership of President

Biden of those three wins that I

mentioned at the outset for

Israel uh a way out of Gaza a change of

Dynamics on the West Bank and with the

Palestinians overall and Regional

integration that all of them stand on

two legs which is yes to rejuvenated

Palestinian Authority running both Gaza

and the West Bank and the political

Horizon leading to a two-state solution

Israelis don't know that the composition

of their current government is depriving

them of this historic

opportunity what I would like to see

from the region in

Washington is the closest equivalent to

a Sadat

moment we cannot have again a Sadat

moment when the president of Egypt shows

up in Jerusalem and turns

Israeli uh uh positions 180 degrees

overnight by his Persona by his gesture

and by his

message but we can do something that is

close to that

where President

Biden and the Saudi Crown Prince known

as

MBS and maybe this the emirati leader

mbz and maybe the king of Morocco and

maybe the King of Jordan and maybe the

president of Egypt jointly or separately

find a way to convey the message

directly to the Israeli public over the

head of the Israeli leadership spelling

out the op

options not dictating anything telling

Israel is look you're all grown-ups it's

core if you like Gaza

enjoy but if you

don't here is what we offer you and here

is what you have to do in order to get

our

offer my advice for the region in

Washington is to create that Moment of

clarity for the Israeli public

which will resonate in the

region which will I think affect

mood it will certainly accelerate the

sense of Israelis of the need for a

change in

Jerusalem okay great okay sumir last

words from you no more than five minutes

please and we'll end right on

time well I totally agree with Nimrod I

I think this what should be done a

surprise visit by Biden mbz MBS the

Moroccan King the Jordanian King to the

KET addressing the Israelis because what

also Nimrod has said at the beginning

that the Israelis are still on the 7th

of October they did not move 200 days

ahead we need to shift one of their eyes

towards the fruit future currently both

their eyes are still stuck in the past

on the 7th of October when you open the

TV channel they are still discussing the

stories of the families of of of the

envelope of Gaza until today so we need

to shift one eyes and it needs something

very powerful I would like to add to

what nrod has

said also to the USA and to the

jordanians since gener smani has

addressed

uh the question start opening your doors

to the opposition inside the

Palestinians you are talking only to

Abbas you are talking to a dead person

that is totally disconnected to the

reality that has lost completely the

support of the Palestinian people open

your doors the same way that President

Biden has invited Gans to Washington DC

as a message to push change in the

Israeli side he must invite the moderate

pragmatic more responsible more

representable Palestinian opposition

from the Palestinians and open the doors

in Washington DC and start talking also

a man needs to go out of the books out

of the classical traditional relation of

sticking talking to the those who have

the title The the situation in the West

Bank does not allow any more tolerance

in the current situation A Change must

be accepted and endorsed by by by the

region and to the Israeli public I would

like to have a final message the only

way that can we can respect and honor

The Souls of the people that lost their

lives on the 7th of October the

Palestinians who have lost their lives

in Gaza is by achieving peace it is only

the only way that we can respect all

those rest who are still living and even

all those who will be born for

Palestinians and Israelis peace is the

only way that we can respect both our

people it is the choice of the

courageous people and we need to start

thinking in the vision for the future

imagine that a Palestinian state will be

the most powerful Ally to Israel imagine

that a moment of threat from the

Iranians like what has happened in the

past days where the Jordanian Army was

in Disguise also protecting imagine that

Palestine will be also playing a role to

defend the region and to defent Israelis

when it is needed this is the thing that

we need to work to to and it is

achievable and doable we just need to

shift one eye towards the future and see

happening okay thank you so much and you

began uh this evening Summer by

emphasizing the need for each side to

understand and appreciate the other

side's narrative and I think that that

is also an extraordinarily important

observation and both of you demonstrated

that this evening I want to thank you

both very very much I will remind our

audience that it is now almost half past

midnight where both of you are we are so

appreciative and I see Professor Spiegel

is about to come back on in a moment and

I speak for him as well we are greatly

appreciative to both of you for being

willing to participate in this webinar

uh at such a late hour of the evening

for both of you thank you both very very

much thank you to the audience for your

terrific questions and I will now hand

over to Professor Spiegel to wrap up

thank you yes I agree so much uh that we

all

appreciate what you were saying and what

we don't hear

very much and and either one of you or

both of you would like to write

something up uh I would be glad to uh uh

to publish it uh the Notions of a Moment

clarity uh the moment of Beyond October

7th although

obviously uh the people who are still in

Gaza who don't want to be there must

come out and the divisions uh

on both sides um there is a history

when uh there was Terror and horror and

death but at least something came out of

it uh and that has to be repeated and

and so I found this uh session very

important very meaningful and it tells

me that we have to do more and more uh

in our uh

programs uh I'd like uh very much uh to

thank our team for creating this

opportunity uh for us to talk today it's

not easy uh these days to Manny Jad of

course to Salam mahajer to Emily pistoi

and to Laura Lee the four people who

work in uh California

uh to make uh everything we do possible

and we have such great uh a feeling for

them uh I'm going to go from the past

hour and a half to the Future now uh and

uh uh seman has quite a bit to offer in

the next few weeks we hope you will

return for these vital elements shared

on the screen and we have even more that

I'm going to be able to talk now but let

me talk about next week May 1st women in

Conflict voices resilience and

solutions uh will be our uh discussion

our panel of experts from Israel

Palestine Sudan and Syria uh will share

the stories of women impacted by

conflict in the Mina region providing

insight into the diverse roles they play

from Frontline activism to behind the

scenes

peacemaking sounds quite intriguing to

me and I look forward uh to hearing it

and on Thursday May 16th

Sudan uh the Lesser known war which is

not getting the kind of attention uh it

should we are trying uh to change that

to change that join us to learn the

latest on the state of the year-long war

and Sudan the country's humanitarian

situation and the international

community's efforts to stop it and

obviously not enough if you have not

already joined our mailing list please

add your

name uh the link is on the screen uh or

send a message to us at CAD you see it

there at

international.

ucla.edu

uh let me say that again because I don't

see it uh but that's maybe my fault

um uh CAD

cmed

so we hope to see you soon as we move on

and uh encouraged by today's uh

discussion move on as faster and uh uh

with more effort than ever so let me say